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An "Oral" History


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The topic of the Oral History project of the Sixth Floor is duscussed on the McAdams website.

Unfortunately (or not, whichever the case) the server appears to be down.

Therefore, Mr. Mack, might want to copy this since I appear to be the only known person to have ever sat down with Mr. Robert West and discussed the various assassination re-enactments.

Time/Life:

1. Breneman:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17221&st=0&p=217525&hl=breneman&fromsearch=1entry217525

Breneman was not an employee of Robert West. He was a "free-lance" survey party chief whom Mr. West called in for the Time/Life survey due to Mr. West's permanent employees having already been "booked" for other work when the no-notice need for the Time/Life survey plat came about. (per Robert West during discussions held at his house)

And, this work, by Breneman, (the Time/Life survey) is so inaccurate that little of it is even utilized for the later (more accurate) SS/FBI/WC survey plats.

2. K(1) on the survey plat:---------------------First shot impact to JFK

P on the survey plat:-----------------------Where a bullet purportedly struck the pavement.*

K(2) on the survey plat:---------------------Z313 impact to JFK**

*According to Mr. West there was absolutely no indication (on the pavement) that any shot had struck at this point.

Time/Life merely informed them to survey in this point and mark it on the survey plat.

In additional discussions with Mr. West on the subject of any bullet "marks", Mr. West stated absolutely that no bullet marks could be found anywhere along the streets and/or curbs,(other than the Tague hit) and that a thorugh search was made.

In Fact, Mr. West personally gave me a copy of a newspaper article which showed the photo of a bullet fragment purportedly being picked up down by the manhole cover.

Therefore, from a witness who was involved in the "search", the only indication of any potential bullet impact was the curb section for the "Tague" hit which was later cut and removed by the FBI.

3. As one looks at the Time/life survey plat, they will find that the alignment from Zapruder--to bullet impact---to yellow stripe in the background, does not correspond with what was later established by the SS, FBI, and WC.

This is a result of the errors of survey of Breneman, coupled with the "carryover" of these errors in attempting to draw a survey plat with inaccurate information.

4. Nevertheless, the Time/Life survey plat, as well as the two pages of known survey notes, provide critical information relative to exactly how to find given points in Dealey Plaza, should one desire to go back and find the nails which the survey crew drove into Elm St. as well as the open grassy area behind where Mary Moorman & Jean Hill were standing.

(more to come, & will attempt to answer any questions. Stick with the Time/Life survey work for now)

Tom

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The topic of the Oral History project of the Sixth Floor is duscussed on the McAdams website.

Unfortunately (or not, whichever the case) the server appears to be down.

Therefore, Mr. Mack, might want to copy this since I appear to be the only known person to have ever sat down with Mr. Robert West and discussed the various assassination re-enactments.

Time/Life:

1. Breneman:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17221&st=0&p=217525&hl=breneman&fromsearch=1entry217525

Breneman was not an employee of Robert West. He was a "free-lance" survey party chief whom Mr. West called in for the Time/Life survey due to Mr. West's permanent employees having already been "booked" for other work when the no-notice need for the Time/Life survey plat came about. (per Robert West during discussions held at his house)

And, this work, by Breneman, (the Time/Life survey) is so inaccurate that little of it is even utilized for the later (more accurate) SS/FBI/WC survey plats.

2. K(1) on the survey plat:---------------------First shot impact to JFK

P on the survey plat:-----------------------Where a bullet purportedly struck the pavement.*

K(2) on the survey plat:---------------------Z313 impact to JFK**

*According to Mr. West there was absolutely no indication (on the pavement) that any shot had struck at this point.

Time/Life merely informed them to survey in this point and mark it on the survey plat.

In additional discussions with Mr. West on the subject of any bullet "marks", Mr. West stated absolutely that no bullet marks could be found anywhere along the streets and/or curbs,(other than the Tague hit) and that a thorugh search was made.

In Fact, Mr. West personally gave me a copy of a newspaper article which showed the photo of a bullet fragment purportedly being picked up down by the manhole cover.

Therefore, from a witness who was involved in the "search", the only indication of any potential bullet impact was the curb section for the "Tague" hit which was later cut and removed by the FBI.

3. As one looks at the Time/life survey plat, they will find that the alignment from Zapruder--to bullet impact---to yellow stripe in the background, does not correspond with what was later established by the SS, FBI, and WC.

This is a result of the errors of survey of Breneman, coupled with the "carryover" of these errors in attempting to draw a survey plat with inaccurate information.

4. Nevertheless, the Time/Life survey plat, as well as the two pages of known survey notes, provide critical information relative to exactly how to find given points in Dealey Plaza, should one desire to go back and find the nails which the survey crew drove into Elm St. as well as the open grassy area behind where Mary Moorman & Jean Hill were standing.

(more to come, & will attempt to answer any questions. Stick with the Time/Life survey work for now)

Tom

Onward then!

The Time/Life survey work utilized neither survey stationing along Elm St, frame#'s of the Zapruder film, or an accurate elevation control which was gained from any SCP (Survey Control Point/station) located near Dealey Plaza.

Nevertheless, when the information available from this survey is married with the later *SS/FBI/WC/& HSCA survey plats, much valuable information begins to form in regards to the actual impact location for each of the three shots fired.

*Inclulding the actual survey notes from Time/Life--SS--FBI--& WC.

When correlates the various information, they will find that the Time/Life impact location for what would have been the first shot fired in the assassination is at what would be approximately Z204/206.

This location also correlates exactly with the "jiggle analysis" and appears to be why the WC deemed it necessary to omit publication of those frames of the Z-film in the 208/211 region, as well as why the WC saw a need to alter the survey data for frames# 208/210.

Fortunately, the survey notes from the Time/Life assassination re-enactment provide sufficient measurements to establish where certain fixed/semi-fixed items of reference were located, and these items also provide reference points when one has that information from the other survey works.

No questions? Comments? Criticisms?????

If not, then on to the SS assassination re-enactment of December 1964 and some of the discussions with Mr. West about this document.

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The topic of the Oral History project of the Sixth Floor is duscussed on the McAdams website.

Unfortunately (or not, whichever the case) the server appears to be down.

Therefore, Mr. Mack, might want to copy this since I appear to be the only known person to have ever sat down with Mr. Robert West and discussed the various assassination re-enactments.

Time/Life:

1. Breneman:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17221&st=0&p=217525&hl=breneman&fromsearch=1entry217525

Breneman was not an employee of Robert West. He was a "free-lance" survey party chief whom Mr. West called in for the Time/Life survey due to Mr. West's permanent employees having already been "booked" for other work when the no-notice need for the Time/Life survey plat came about. (per Robert West during discussions held at his house)

And, this work, by Breneman, (the Time/Life survey) is so inaccurate that little of it is even utilized for the later (more accurate) SS/FBI/WC survey plats.

2. K(1) on the survey plat:---------------------First shot impact to JFK

P on the survey plat:-----------------------Where a bullet purportedly struck the pavement.*

K(2) on the survey plat:---------------------Z313 impact to JFK**

*According to Mr. West there was absolutely no indication (on the pavement) that any shot had struck at this point.

Time/Life merely informed them to survey in this point and mark it on the survey plat.

In additional discussions with Mr. West on the subject of any bullet "marks", Mr. West stated absolutely that no bullet marks could be found anywhere along the streets and/or curbs,(other than the Tague hit) and that a thorugh search was made.

In Fact, Mr. West personally gave me a copy of a newspaper article which showed the photo of a bullet fragment purportedly being picked up down by the manhole cover.

Therefore, from a witness who was involved in the "search", the only indication of any potential bullet impact was the curb section for the "Tague" hit which was later cut and removed by the FBI.

3. As one looks at the Time/life survey plat, they will find that the alignment from Zapruder--to bullet impact---to yellow stripe in the background, does not correspond with what was later established by the SS, FBI, and WC.

This is a result of the errors of survey of Breneman, coupled with the "carryover" of these errors in attempting to draw a survey plat with inaccurate information.

4. Nevertheless, the Time/Life survey plat, as well as the two pages of known survey notes, provide critical information relative to exactly how to find given points in Dealey Plaza, should one desire to go back and find the nails which the survey crew drove into Elm St. as well as the open grassy area behind where Mary Moorman & Jean Hill were standing.

(more to come, & will attempt to answer any questions. Stick with the Time/Life survey work for now)

Tom

Onward then!

The Time/Life survey work utilized neither survey stationing along Elm St, frame#'s of the Zapruder film, or an accurate elevation control which was gained from any SCP (Survey Control Point/station) located near Dealey Plaza.

Nevertheless, when the information available from this survey is married with the later *SS/FBI/WC/& HSCA survey plats, much valuable information begins to form in regards to the actual impact location for each of the three shots fired.

*Inclulding the actual survey notes from Time/Life--SS--FBI--& WC.

When correlates the various information, they will find that the Time/Life impact location for what would have been the first shot fired in the assassination is at what would be approximately Z204/206.

This location also correlates exactly with the "jiggle analysis" and appears to be why the WC deemed it necessary to omit publication of those frames of the Z-film in the 208/211 region, as well as why the WC saw a need to alter the survey data for frames# 208/210.

Fortunately, the survey notes from the Time/Life assassination re-enactment provide sufficient measurements to establish where certain fixed/semi-fixed items of reference were located, and these items also provide reference points when one has that information from the other survey works.

No questions? Comments? Criticisms?????

If not, then on to the SS assassination re-enactment of December 1964 and some of the discussions with Mr. West about this document.

P.S. For Mr. Mack & others:

The downward angle of fire drawing marked "LIFE" was not prepared by Breneman.

Mr. West went back into Dealey Plaza later and gained the information necessary to prepare this drawing.

From indications of my discussions with him, it may in fact have been prepared by Mr. West, although I never specifically asked if he made it.

Breneman had made no such drawing and none of his work took into consideration the height of JFK's head above the pavement.

Mr. West indicated that there had to be/quite obviously was additional information provided by Brenneman in order to have completed the Time/Life Survey Plat.

However, he could not locate them and did not even know if they were in his possession.

For the "Treasure Seeker", there should be a field survey log in existence somewhere, in which Breneman would/should have recorded much of the assassination re-enactment information.

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The topic of the Oral History project of the Sixth Floor is duscussed on the McAdams website.

Unfortunately (or not, whichever the case) the server appears to be down.

Therefore, Mr. Mack, might want to copy this since I appear to be the only known person to have ever sat down with Mr. Robert West and discussed the various assassination re-enactments.

Time/Life:

1. Breneman:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17221&st=0&p=217525&hl=breneman&fromsearch=1entry217525

Breneman was not an employee of Robert West. He was a "free-lance" survey party chief whom Mr. West called in for the Time/Life survey due to Mr. West's permanent employees having already been "booked" for other work when the no-notice need for the Time/Life survey plat came about. (per Robert West during discussions held at his house)

And, this work, by Breneman, (the Time/Life survey) is so inaccurate that little of it is even utilized for the later (more accurate) SS/FBI/WC survey plats.

2. K(1) on the survey plat:---------------------First shot impact to JFK

P on the survey plat:-----------------------Where a bullet purportedly struck the pavement.*

K(2) on the survey plat:---------------------Z313 impact to JFK**

*According to Mr. West there was absolutely no indication (on the pavement) that any shot had struck at this point.

Time/Life merely informed them to survey in this point and mark it on the survey plat.

In additional discussions with Mr. West on the subject of any bullet "marks", Mr. West stated absolutely that no bullet marks could be found anywhere along the streets and/or curbs,(other than the Tague hit) and that a thorugh search was made.

In Fact, Mr. West personally gave me a copy of a newspaper article which showed the photo of a bullet fragment purportedly being picked up down by the manhole cover.

Therefore, from a witness who was involved in the "search", the only indication of any potential bullet impact was the curb section for the "Tague" hit which was later cut and removed by the FBI.

3. As one looks at the Time/life survey plat, they will find that the alignment from Zapruder--to bullet impact---to yellow stripe in the background, does not correspond with what was later established by the SS, FBI, and WC.

This is a result of the errors of survey of Breneman, coupled with the "carryover" of these errors in attempting to draw a survey plat with inaccurate information.

4. Nevertheless, the Time/Life survey plat, as well as the two pages of known survey notes, provide critical information relative to exactly how to find given points in Dealey Plaza, should one desire to go back and find the nails which the survey crew drove into Elm St. as well as the open grassy area behind where Mary Moorman & Jean Hill were standing.

(more to come, & will attempt to answer any questions. Stick with the Time/Life survey work for now)

Tom

Onward then!

The Time/Life survey work utilized neither survey stationing along Elm St, frame#'s of the Zapruder film, or an accurate elevation control which was gained from any SCP (Survey Control Point/station) located near Dealey Plaza.

Nevertheless, when the information available from this survey is married with the later *SS/FBI/WC/& HSCA survey plats, much valuable information begins to form in regards to the actual impact location for each of the three shots fired.

*Inclulding the actual survey notes from Time/Life--SS--FBI--& WC.

When correlates the various information, they will find that the Time/Life impact location for what would have been the first shot fired in the assassination is at what would be approximately Z204/206.

This location also correlates exactly with the "jiggle analysis" and appears to be why the WC deemed it necessary to omit publication of those frames of the Z-film in the 208/211 region, as well as why the WC saw a need to alter the survey data for frames# 208/210.

Fortunately, the survey notes from the Time/Life assassination re-enactment provide sufficient measurements to establish where certain fixed/semi-fixed items of reference were located, and these items also provide reference points when one has that information from the other survey works.

No questions? Comments? Criticisms?????

If not, then on to the SS assassination re-enactment of December 1964 and some of the discussions with Mr. West about this document.

"If not, then on to the SS assassination re-enactment of December 1964 and some of the discussions with Mr. West about this document."

Forget that!

Let's skip to the FBI survey plat of June 1964, since the Sixth Floor Museum is (assumedly) in possession of that one as well.

1. Long after the WC (about a month), Mr. West was contacted by the local office of the FBI and told that they wanted him to modify their previous survey plat of 2/7/64.

2. No reason was given for this "modification" and Mr. West did not ask. He merely did as requested.

3. No survey work was involved in this modification and Mr. West merely utilized that information previously gathered (primarily from the SS survey works of December 1963).

4. Since the FBI Survey Plat of 2/7/64 was created utilizing that information gathered during the SS assassination re-enactment of 12/5/63, the SS as well as FBI survey plats appear almost identical.

5. Anyway, the FBI survey plat of June 1964, deletes the impact location for shot#3 which was down Elm St. directly in front of James Altgens location.

6. This "#3" impact location appears on the SS survey plat of 12/5/63 from their assassination re-enactment, as well as also appearing on the FBI survey plat of 2/7/64 from the FBI assassination re-enactment and survey plat.

7. The #3 location is identical (stationing 4+95) for the two separate survey plats.

8. This #3 impact location was deleted (at the request of the FBI) from the June 1964 survey plat, which now shows only the #1 and #2/Z313 impact locations.

9. Mr. West had no knowledge as to exactly why the FBI asked for this new/modified/changed survey plat, and he did not ask.

10. As noted elswhere, the shot#2/aka Z313 impact is located at survey stationing 4+66.7 on the SS and FBI survey plats, whereas the WC places this shot at 4+65.3. (a difference of 1.4 feet), with a corresponding slight difference in street elevation.

The FBI survey plat of June 1964 serves to fully point out that the FBI had long known the location of the third shot impact, and it was made to "disappear" into the maze of other confusing items which have continously been fostered since.

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  • 1 month later...

For all participants in the annual "running of the squirrels" in Dallas on/or about November 22, 2011, might want to "run" by the Sixth Floor Museum.

Mr. Mack, you will receive a copy of the full-sized Warren Commission survey plat well prior to the above date, in order that the Museum can, if they so wish, have it on display during the annual event.

Just do not allow any of the "squirrels" to chew on it.

Tom

P.S. I will make comments on it after it is officially sent.

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