Seth Kantor and Jack Ruby

[Mathias Baumann]

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 10:28 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Interesting aside in that Jeff Morley bumped a old Jack Ruby thread on his site yesterday, though not related to Kantor.

http://jfkfacts.org/ex-flame-says-jack-ruby-had-no-choice-but-to-kill-oswald/#more-3504

 

Quote

Ruby never mentioned President Kennedy, Raven said. “He was not in love with the Kennedys and he did NOT like Robert Kennedy by no means,” she says.

That would certainly explain why he missed out on the once in a lifetime chance to see his hero JFK come to town.

On ‎9‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 9:08 PM, Bart Kamp said:

Ruby doc, thanks to Malcolm Blunt

 

Pay careful attention to the annotations.

 

http://jfkassassinationuk.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Ruby.pdf

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It is possible, even, that that fear of Oswald [...] might have outweighed fear of the penalties of the law.

Could Ruby have been a co-conspirator? Did he know Oswald? Could that explain why he knew the precise name of the "Fairplay for Cuba Committee" and his evasiveness when asked about Tippit or his various trips to Cuba in 1959?

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According to a note sent to the FBI, an informant was told by an H. Theodore Lee in that ‘the president was actually assassinated by Dallas police officer TIPPIT’. 

The informant also told Lee that the information came from individuals previously active in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee (FPCC).

The note also says a week before the assassination Tippit, allegedly head of the right-wing John Birch Society in Dallas, and a third party who was possibly Oswald, met in Jack Ruby's Nightclub.

Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5023235/Dallas-police-officer-JD-Tippit-JFK-s-REAL-assassin.html

Is it true that J.D. tippit was a marksman?

Edited September 23, 2018 by Mathias Baumann

[Paul Brancato]

4 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

That would certainly explain why he missed out on the once in a lifetime chance to see his hero JFK come to town.

Could Ruby have been a co-conspirator? Did he know Oswald? Could that explain why he knew the precise name of the "Fairplay for Cuba Committee" and his evasiveness when asked about Tippit or his various trips to Cuba in 1959?

Is it true that J.D. tippit was a marksman?

JD’s father told Joseph McBride that JD was an excellent shot. In his excellent book Into the Nightmare, McBride examines JD’s movements before and after the assassination. The way I read it JD’s alibi for his whereabouts at the time of the assassination doesn’t hold up. 

[Joe Bauer]

By coincidence, Jack Ruby manages to secure an extremely up close standing position in the Dallas PD basement right behind a hulking Dallas policeman William " Blackie" Harrison just before Oswald is brought out into their path.

Harrison knows Ruby quite well. In his WC testimony Harrison said of his relationship with Jack Ruby:

Mr. GRIFFIN. You do recognize Ruby by sight, do you not?
Mr. HARRISON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Jack personally?
Mr. HARRISON. I knew him as a businessman as well by sight, and I have known him for 12 years, I guess, as a businessman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to meet Jack?

Mr. HARRISON. Well, I used to go into his place. I was a motorcycle officer, and we would go into these different places just checking, and he was running the Silver Spur, I think was the name of it.

Since when does an on duty  "traffic cop" feel the need to park his cycle outside of night clubs to go inside ( just checking ) without being called to do so?

Did big Blackie Harrison stop and go into ice cream parlors and ladies hair salons in his "just checking" motorcycle traffic patrol MO as well?

Guess maybe a cold beer or a shot of the good stuff ( Haig or J & B ? ) beats a free ice cream cone or quickie hair trim.

 

Edited September 24, 2018 by Joe Bauer

[Ron Bulman]

In Kantor's The ruby Cover-Up Harrison supposedly said he would stop in the Silver Spur for a cold one (pg. 284).  Also, the Silver Spur was not a strip joint.  It was originally the Singapore Supper Club, owned together with Ruby's sister Eva.  When he got sole ownership he changed the name to the Silver Spur and featured western swing music.  And he dressed up in a pure white dude ranch getup.  Known at first as the Chicago Cowboy... pg. 211.

[Joe Bauer]

On 9/23/2018 at 2:16 PM, Ron Bulman said:

In Kantor's The ruby Cover-Up Harrison supposedly said he would stop in the Silver Spur for a cold one (pg. 284).  Also, the Silver Spur was not a strip joint.  It was originally the Singapore Supper Club, owned together with Ruby's sister Eva.  When he got sole ownership he changed the name to the Silver Spur and featured western swing music.  And he dressed up in a pure white dude ranch getup.  Known at first as the Chicago Cowboy... pg. 211.

Ron, the Silver Spur did not have strippers?

My mistake.

Still, Ruby finds a perfect hiding place and up close lunging shooting position right behind his long time DP friend William Harrison?

Coincidence?

As Seth Kantor said, it was harder for him ( Kantor ) as a press person to be allowed into that basement that morning than it was for non-credentialed Jack Ruby.

And when big Blackie Harrison went down to get his cigars from a vending machine located closer to the Commerce street back entrance to the Police department basement and before Ruby arrived on the scene, it wouldn't be illogical to consider Ruby perhaps getting in that way with someone opening the right doors there. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Joe Bauer

[Ron Bulman]

I didn't read Kantor's book until after the 3rd printing in 1992.  But for about 25 years I've had trouble now imagining Ruby in an all white Cowboy outfit emceeing a western swing band and crowd of dancers and drunks.  Did it include a white cowboy hat and boot's?  Like Boss Hawg on the Dukes of Hazard?  Or the daddy of the father/son that put up the money for the run in Smokey and the Bandit?  Known to be his own bouncer an outfit like that would have shown dirt or blood. He sold the Silver Spur in 1955, the new owner couldn't get a license and it shut down.  From the Chicago Cowboy to demoing and selling Twist boards in 62-63 he was a hustler from the streets of the windy city.

[Joe Bauer]

Did Blackie Harrison ever do his "just checking" drop in thing at Ruby's Carousel Club?

Sounds like many Dallas cops and every male somebody in Dallas did so from time to time, including District Attorney Henry Wade.

Seeing Jada and so many other beautiful strippers and getting a few free drinks at the same time must have been a real temptation for all those Texas boys.

Former stripper at Ruby's Carousel Club "Satans Angel."

"Angel was a seasoned performer when her agent sent her to dance at Abe Weinstein's Colony Club on Commerce Street, an area of downtown Dallas teeming with burlesque clubs. But the Colony was overbooked, so she switched to the nearby Carousel Club, owned by a man Angel's agent described as a wannabe "mobster type."

Jack Ruby's Carousel was one stop amongst thousands, but Angel remembers its owner as a pudgy womanizer with slicked-back hair.

"He hit on me for the first couple of days," she recalls. "I just told him, 'I'm going to be honest with you, you'll probably fire me over it.' Because you did not tell people that you were gay." But Ruby backed off. Angel fulfilled her contract and moved on to Kansas City.

Six months later, she recognized the killer of Lee Harvey Oswald, JFK's assassin, as her one-time boss. She had witnessed Ruby's nasty fits of temper at the club. "He was kinda like a Jekyll-and-Hyde guy," Angel says. "One minute he was really nice and the next minute he wanted to pound your face into the cement."

Back in those days, she says, despite the Bible-thumping, "Texas was wild." But as the '70s turned into the '80s, tastes and attitudes began to shift. "All the porn started coming in," Angel says. "Nobody was coming out to the clubs. You had to be more bizarre, you had to be more crazy. ... It got so nasty and filthy and disgusting, finally in 1985 I decided to quit."

 

 

 

[Ron Bulman]

Rose Cheramie  called Ruby Pinky and said he and Oswald had been "shackin up" for a while if memory serves.  Oswald hung with Ferrie before the assassination and in the 50's in the Civil Air Patrol as a young recruit of Ferrie.  Ferrie being fired from Delta Airlines (?) over his affinity for young boy's.  Then O's hangin with Ferrie in the summer of 63 in NO.  And Ferrie is affiliated with Shaw/Bertrand?  A song from 63.

 

[Paul Brancato]

14 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Rose Cheramie  called Ruby Pinky and said he and Oswald had been "shackin up" for a while if memory serves.  Oswald hung with Ferrie before the assassination and in the 50's in the Civil Air Patrol as a young recruit of Ferrie.  Ferrie being fired from Delta Airlines (?) over his affinity for young boy's.  Then O's hangin with Ferrie in the summer of 63 in NO.  And Ferrie is affiliated with Shaw/Bertrand?  A song from 63.

 

Thanks Ron - as a Bronx boy growing up in the 50’s Dion was one of my heroes, along with a few NY Yankees. I’m old enough to remember groups of teenagers spontaneously singing doo-wop on street corners. 

[Roy Wieselquist]

This topic is bearing much fruit recently.  To recap/summarize some points especially salient to me from Joe Bauer and Ron Bulman:

* Jack Ruby's long friendship with William J. "Blackie" Harrison, delineating that relationship with great, often hilarious, examples

* credentialed Seth Kantor couldn't get near that basement, while Ruby had carte blanche, sailed right in (BTW, I love Seth's first edition "Who Was Jack Ruby?", one of the first I devoured on this long journey)

* cool, funny recollections by the strippers Rose Cheramie and the lesbian "Satan's Angel" (are you kidding?!  This is just too symbolic, or something); important: the observation of Ruby as Jekyll and Hyde, though it's important to remember when Ruby became violent, there was no danger to Ruby; he was the consummate coward

* Most Important: the cigar (and cigarette?) vending machine at the door for the backentrance to the basement on Commerce Street, a convenient excuse for "Blackie"

 

Y'all have nailed how Ruby got in the basement, pure and simple.  If you want to go the extra mile, I guess you could make a map.

Some forum members may not know this:

The WARren COmmissioN Report features Blackie Harrison as the very last line of the REAL text.  Page 813, at end of Appendix XVII "Polygraph Examination of Jack Ruby," before the (joke of an) "Interpretation of the Test," before the footnotes, index and "A Historical Afterword" by Confederate apologist Bruce Catton (which is the very end of the volume I have) -------------------------

Q. Did "Blackie" Hanson speak to you just before you shot Oswald?

A. No.

 

Of course, there was no Blackie HANSON.  The name does not appear in the index.  Harrison, William J. appears only once in the index, for page 224.  Where it tells the police JR was standing behind before he darted through to shoot The Wizard of Ozzie.   They are Harrison, Glen King, C. O. Arnett, and W. M. Croy.

So Jack Ruby DID NOT LIE, obfuscate, derail, meander, or go cray-cray this one time.  He didn't speak to Blackie HANSON.

 

PS to Ron Bulman:  I saw in some post on this forum that you posted on JFK Facts with the name Ronnie Wayne.  (I posted there as Roy W. Kornbluth, in homage to the Shakespeare of the 20th century, C. (Cyril) M. Kornbluth.)  I should have known Bulman and Wayne were one and the same because you have the same voracious reading of the literature AND excellent big-picture comprehension of it WITH a good bit (not too much) of well- grounded passion.  So I am in your debt twice, bigly.  I can't express.....  "FREE THE FILES!" right?

PPS to Joe Bauer, Micah Mileto and all the other brethren and sistren true amateurs (love and passion) like me for the resolution of this.  We will end this Dark Age.  Of course with the help of "standing on the shoulders of giants" like Palamara, Lane, Meagher, Thompson, Marrs, Weisberg, DiEugenio, Caddy, Lifton, McBride, et al.

Edited October 2, 2018 by Roy Wieselquist

[Craig Carvalho]

5 hours ago, Roy Wieselquist said:

* Jack Ruby's long friendship with William J. "Blackie" Harrison, delineating that relationship with great, often hilarious, examples

Roy,

Detectives Blackie Harrison and Lewis Miller spent the early morning of November 24 at the Delux Diner before having to be recalled, (by phone), by headquarters prior to Oswald's transfer. Both men were subsequently assigned to security in the basement area.

When questioned by the Warren Commission about these events both detectives showed a complete lack of memory especially regarding their early morning coffee break. Neither could recall any detail whatsoever about any topic discussed during this time. 

Miller went so far as to refuse to testify during his first appearance. He did return the following day to give testimony with lawyer in tow.

To read their Warren Commission testimony was a life changing experience for me, (in light of having been a police officer myself).

These were men trained to be observant. To recall details. To notice things that were "out of place". 

And all of this occurred on what would be, in all likelihood, one of the most important days of their careers, (even if Oswald had not been killed). 

To use a quote from the testimony of Lewis Miller himself... "... it was just another day...".

Incredible!  

[Joe Bauer]

15 hours ago, Craig Carvalho said:

Roy,

Detectives Blackie Harrison and Lewis Miller spent the early morning of November 24 at the Delux Diner before having to be recalled, (by phone), by headquarters prior to Oswald's transfer. Both men were subsequently assigned to security in the basement area.

When questioned by the Warren Commission about these events both detectives showed a complete lack of memory especially regarding their early morning coffee break. Neither could recall any detail whatsoever about any topic discussed during this time. 

Miller went so far as to refuse to testify during his first appearance. He did return the following day to give testimony with lawyer in tow.

To read their Warren Commission testimony was a life changing experience for me, (in light of having been a police officer myself).

These were men trained to be observant. To recall details. To notice things that were "out of place". 

And all of this occurred on what would be, in all likelihood, one of the most important days of their careers, (even if Oswald had not been killed). 

To use a quote from the testimony of Lewis Miller himself... "... it was just another day...".

Incredible!  

"It was just another day"  ...Yes, incredible.

[Ron Bulman]

On ‎10‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 1:33 AM, Roy Wieselquist said:

This topic is bearing much fruit recently.  To recap/summarize some points especially salient to me from Joe Bauer and Ron Bulman:

* Jack Ruby's long friendship with William J. "Blackie" Harrison, delineating that relationship with great, often hilarious, examples

* credentialed Seth Kantor couldn't get near that basement, while Ruby had carte blanche, sailed right in (BTW, I love Seth's first edition "Who Was Jack Ruby?", one of the first I devoured on this long journey)

* cool, funny recollections by the strippers Rose Cheramie and the lesbian "Satan's Angel" (are you kidding?!  This is just too symbolic, or something); important: the observation of Ruby as Jekyll and Hyde, though it's important to remember when Ruby became violent, there was no danger to Ruby; he was the consummate coward

* Most Important: the cigar (and cigarette?) vending machine at the door for the backentrance to the basement on Commerce Street, a convenient excuse for "Blackie"

 

Y'all have nailed how Ruby got in the basement, pure and simple.  If you want to go the extra mile, I guess you could make a map.

Some forum members may not know this:

The WARren COmmissioN Report features Blackie Harrison as the very last line of the REAL text.  Page 813, at end of Appendix XVII "Polygraph Examination of Jack Ruby," before the (joke of an) "Interpretation of the Test," before the footnotes, index and "A Historical Afterword" by Confederate apologist Bruce Catton (which is the very end of the volume I have) -------------------------

Q. Did "Blackie" Hanson speak to you just before you shot Oswald?

A. No.

 

Of course, there was no Blackie HANSON.  The name does not appear in the index.  Harrison, William J. appears only once in the index, for page 224.  Where it tells the police JR was standing behind before he darted through to shoot The Wizard of Ozzie.   They are Harrison, Glen King, C. O. Arnett, and W. M. Croy.

So Jack Ruby DID NOT LIE, obfuscate, derail, meander, or go cray-cray this one time.  He didn't speak to Blackie HANSON.

 

PS to Ron Bulman:  I saw in some post on this forum that you posted on JFK Facts with the name Ronnie Wayne.  (I posted there as Roy W. Kornbluth, in homage to the Shakespeare of the 20th century, C. (Cyril) M. Kornbluth.)  I should have known Bulman and Wayne were one and the same because you have the same voracious reading of the literature AND excellent big-picture comprehension of it WITH a good bit (not too much) of well- grounded passion.  So I am in your debt twice, bigly.  I can't express.....  "FREE THE FILES!" right?

PPS to Joe Bauer, Micah Mileto and all the other brethren and sistren true amateurs (love and passion) like me for the resolution of this.  We will end this Dark Age.  Of course with the help of "standing on the shoulders of giants" like Palamara, Lane, Meagher, Thompson, Marrs, Weisberg, DiEugenio, Caddy, Lifton, McBride, et al.

FREETHEFILES  didn't exactly become a movement and the concept certainly didn't succeed with Truhmp's capitulations.  

Yeah, your right, a map should be made.  A picture's worth a thousand words.  I don't know if any are available on this or how to post them if the can be found.

Years ago, in which book I read I'm not sure...  Dallas City Hall and the PD/Jail/Basement were next to each other.  These buildings have been demolished and replaced.  Off the entry to City Hall was a door leading to the adjacent jail basement.  This door was left unlocked by the officer inspecting security.  Ruby walked past the ramp entrance after sending a trivial amount to a stripper in Fort Worth at Western Union to establish an alibi.  He went in the open door to City Hall, with no receptionist there in 1963 on a Sunday, through the door into the DPD basement.  There he assisted employee's of TV station WBAP in moving a light or light stand to be used in the filming of the transfer of LHO.  He used this ruse to hide behind the light or stand and get behind his friend, DPD Officer Blackie Harrison.  Just what I've read, somewhere. 

Edited October 2, 2018 by Ron Bulman

[Ron Bulman]

20 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

FREETHEFILES  didn't exactly become a movement and the concept certainly didn't succeed with Truhmp's capitulations.  

Yeah, your right, a map should be made.  A picture's worth a thousand words.  I don't know if any are available on this or how to post them if the can be found.

Years ago, in which book I read I'm not sure...  Dallas City Hall and the PD/Jail/Basement were next to each other.  These buildings have been demolished and replaced.  Off the entry to City Hall was a door leading to the adjacent jail basement.  This door was left unlocked by the officer inspecting security.  Ruby walked past the ramp entrance after sending a trivial amount to a stripper in Fort Worth at Western Union to establish an alibi.  He went in the open door to City Hall, with no receptionist there in 1963 on a Sunday, through the door into the DPD basement.  There he assisted employee's of TV station WBAP in moving a light or light stand to be used in the filming of the transfer of LHO.  He used this ruse to hide behind the light or stand and get behind his friend, DPD Officer Blackie Harrison.  Just what I've read, somewhere. 

The Municipal Building opened in 1914.  It housed the Dallas City Hall, and in 1963, the Dallas Police Department.

"In the basement of this structure on November 24, 1963, Jack Ruby fatally shot Lee Harvey Oswald, alleged assassin of President John F. Kennedy".  Even the city of Dallas says "alleged"?

https://dallascityhall.com/government/citysecretary/archives/Pages/Archives_buildings.aspx 

[Joe Bauer]

Karen Carlin ( Little Lynn ) was always my favorite Carousel stripper character.

In her second Warren Commission appearance she relates death threats against her by Pat Kirkwood.  She took these death threats seriously.

Kirkwood was the owner of the "Cellar" night club in Fort Worth ( it's waitresses wore bikinis and it had a "Beatnik" feel ) where 19 year old Karen Carlin worked briefly before working at Jack Ruby's Carousel Club.

Kirkwood was remembered by former employees of the Cellar as uniquely business savvy yet at the same time a very scary character.

Karen Carlin testified that she had reported Kirkwood for "police payoffs" and Kirkwood sought revenge.

Coincidentally, this is the club where 6 to 8 members of JFK's SS protection team for his Dallas trip spent most of the night drinking until the early morning hours of 11,22,1963.

There is a video on YouTube about this Fort Worth Texas "Cellar" owner Pat Kirkwood that is very interesting. It has former employees reflecting on their memories of working for Pat Kirkwood in the late 1950's thru the early 1960's.

I noticed only 2,500 people have ever watched this video on YouTube.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

0:29 / 5:22

 

 

 

 

Pat Kirkwood from 'You Must Be Weird, Or You Wouldn't Be Here

2,471 views

 

I tried to copy and paste the video listing on YouTube but could only copy it's title. If someone here more savvy than I could post the entire YouTube video I would appreciate it.

Also, the following is Karen Carlin's testimony to the WC about her fearing for her life due to death threats made against her by this Pat Sherwood.

I wonder what motivated Karen Carlin to do something so risky as reporting Kirkwood's payoffs to certain cops. 

It's all suspiciously interesting especially when you tie in JFK's SS men hanging out In Kirkwood's "Cellar" club late into the evening and early morning hours of 11,22,1963.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that during the course of the Ruby trial when you were waiting to testify that there was a jail break there and some people got out of the jail, and I think they passed right near by you, I believe? 
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. 
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what you screamed or said? 
Mrs. CARLIN. "Oh, my God, they're after me." 
Mr. HUBERT. Yes what made you believe that "they" were after you? 
Mrs. CARLIN. Because I was scared I was going to get killed before I ever got court. 
Mr. HUBERT. Who do you think was going to kill you? 
Mrs. CARLIN. I don't know exactly who or why. I just felt that I was going to get killed. 
Mr. HUBERT. Well, who did you mean by "they," when you said "they" were after 
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, there was a man that was running after me there was two of them, and I saw some kind of little weapon, it looked like, but I don't remember very much. 
Mr. HUBERT. So, when you used the word "they," you meant those people there who were escaping? 
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. 
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't have in mind some other group of people who were after you? 
Mrs. CARLIN. No---well, it all goes back to where I used to work. I had already been threatened by Pat Kirkwood and I didn't know they were escaping from the jail when I saw them.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is Pat Kirkwood 
Mrs. CARLIN. He owns the Cellar and I had already been threatened by him. My life had been threatened by him. 
Mr. HUBERT. Why did he do that? 
Mrs. CARLIN. Well, it was--he had some publicity people down there--- television and cameras and so on, and we never got along too well because I told the police, the vice squad about him and identified some policemen that were being paid off by him and everything, and of course, he had so many friends he got out of it real easy, but then he hated me for what I had done. 
Mr. HUBERT. Was that before the President was shot? 
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes, that was before, and so after the President was shot, he found out what was going on and he called me on the telephone, and he says, "I want you down here in about 20 minute," and I said, "Kirkwood, I don't want to have anything to do with you or your plans, just leave me alone." 
Mr. HUBERT. That was after Oswald was shot? 
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; after I went to court that first time, the bond hearing, I believe. 
Mr. HUBERT. Yes. 
Mrs. CARLIN. After I went to court, he says, "I want you down here" and I said, "Well, I'm not coming down." He called me back in about 20 minutes and he said, "Why aren't you down here?" He said, "I'll send a cab up after you." 
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you 
Mrs. CARLIN. I was at home in bed, I wasn't feeling too good, and my husband was out working. So, right after he called me---I was still on the telephone, and my husband walked in, and he had just finished saying, "If you're not down here, you won't be around too long," and then my husband walked in and let him have the telephone and they talked then. 
Mr. HUBERT. What did your husband say? 
Mrs. CARLIN. My husband told him I wasn't coming down and if he gave me any trouble he would tell the police about it, and he said, "Well, I'll see her on the way to the club and I'll see that she never makes it inside the door."
We moved from the apartments that we were in that Kirkwood knew we were living in--we moved from there and Kirkwood didn't know anything about it, and he went looking for me over there and asked my landlord about me and where to find me, and then he was supposed to meet me up at the Carousel Club and knock me out so I couldn't get in--he was going to see that I never made it, and he never did show up. He called the colored man that took care of the place. He called him and told him to tell me that he had called, and I don't remember what all he said to the colored man, but he called him. 
Mr. HUBERT. Who is he again? 
Mrs. CARLIN. Pat Kirkwood. 
Mr. HUBERT. He operates the Cellar, you say? That's a nightclub? 
Mrs. CARLIN. It's a beatnik club here in town on Main Street. 
Mr. HUBERT. Have you heard from him since? 
Mrs. CARLIN. I haven't heard from him--no; not since then. 
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been last January? 
Mrs. CARLIN. Yes. 

 

 

0:22 / 5:22

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2018 by Joe Bauer