Richard Bartholomew, G.G Wing and the TWO Ramblers

[Karl Kinaski]

Quote:

Possible Discovery of an Automobile Used

In the JFK Conspiracy

Copyright © 1993 by Richard Bartholomew

"On May 29, 1989, a Rambler station wagon was noticed on the campus of the University of Texas at Austin (UT) which fit the description of the getaway car reportedly seen by Craig, Robinson, Forrest, and Carr on November 22, 1963.8 A cursory examination of the car..." Close quote

There were TWO Ramblers waiting at the vicinity of the murder: one at the Eastside of the SBDB, the other on Record Street, not far away.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Karl Kinaski

[Karl Kinaski]

Quote:

Possible Discovery of an Automobile Used

In the JFK Conspiracy

Copyright © 1993 by Richard Bartholomew

"On May 29, 1989, a Rambler station wagon was noticed on the campus of the University of Texas at Austin (UT) which fit the description of the getaway car reportedly seen by Craig, Robinson, Forrest, and Carr on November 22, 1963.8 A cursory examination of the car..." Close quote

There were TWO Ramblers waiting at the vicinity of the murder: one at the Eastside of the SBDB, the other on Record Street, not far away.

Therefore Georg Gordon Wing rode one of two gateway Ramblers during the second half of his lifetime: the Huston-Street Rambler, or the Record Street Rambler. (Note: both cars are documented on film/pic).

It is odd that when Researcher Bartholomew was on his heels, Wing died: exact on the day when Oliver Stones JFK was first shown in the US.

KK

Edited September 16, 2011 by Karl Kinaski

[Robert Howard]

Quote:

Possible Discovery of an Automobile Used

In the JFK Conspiracy

Copyright © 1993 by Richard Bartholomew

"On May 29, 1989, a Rambler station wagon was noticed on the campus of the University of Texas at Austin (UT) which fit the description of the getaway car reportedly seen by Craig, Robinson, Forrest, and Carr on November 22, 1963.8 A cursory examination of the car..." Close quote

There were TWO Ramblers waiting at the vicinity of the murder: one at the Eastside of the SBDB, the other on Record Street, not far away.

Therefore Georg Gordon Wing rode one of two gateway Ramblers during the second half of his lifetime: the Huston-Street Rambler, or the Record Street Rambler. (Note: both cars are documented on film/pic).

It is odd that when Researcher Bartholomew was on his heels, Wing died: exact on the day when Oliver Stones JFK was first shown in the US.

KK

Don't take this personally, but considering the title of your thread, could you provide some type of verification

instead of an, at this point, factually unsupported claim. It's not like you are dealing with a triviality.

Robert

BTW

Richard was treated like dirt when he, apparently made the mistake of assuming he was in the company

of researchers interested in his article when he appeared here on the Forum,

from what I could see at the time, it looked like he ran into a few hotheads, that couldn't bear the fact

that he had produced an article that was more than relevant to the assassination, than anything they had done.

I should know I was one of the persons who invited him to appear on the forum....and I was

embarrassed at the way he was treated, in fact I have never invited anyone else to appear

on the Forum since then, although I am glad I invited Bill Kelly to come

While awaiting a response, Richard was the first researcher to produce additional

relevant factual information not generally known into areas such as LBJ attorney J Waddy Bullion,

Collins Radio, Jack Crichton, in which the main previous researcher who had explored

these areas was Peter Dale Scott in his unpublished manuscript The Dallas Conspiracy.

Questioning, or pointing out mistakes of researchers, is a popular pastime

here on the Forum,I understand why that is in a contentious debate where

facts are in question, but professionalism or a modicum of decency, would

seem to dictate backing up ones assertions with factual references,

although more often than not the end result is no good deed goes unpunished.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Robert Howard

[William Kelly]

Quote:

Possible Discovery of an Automobile Used

In the JFK Conspiracy

Copyright © 1993 by Richard Bartholomew

"On May 29, 1989, a Rambler station wagon was noticed on the campus of the University of Texas at Austin (UT) which fit the description of the getaway car reportedly seen by Craig, Robinson, Forrest, and Carr on November 22, 1963.8 A cursory examination of the car..." Close quote

There were TWO Ramblers waiting at the vicinity of the murder: one at the Eastside of the SBDB, the other on Record Street, not far away.

Therefore Georg Gordon Wing rode one of two gateway Ramblers during the second half of his lifetime: the Huston-Street Rambler, or the Record Street Rambler. (Note: both cars are documented on film/pic).

It is odd that when Researcher Bartholomew was on his heels, Wing died: exact on the day when Oliver Stones JFK was first shown in the US.

KK

Don't take this personally, but considering the title of your thread, could you provide some type of verification

instead of an, at this point, factually unsupported claim. It's not like you are dealing with a triviality.

Robert

BTW

Richard was treated like dirt when he, apparently made the mistake of assuming he was in the company

of researchers interested in his article when he appeared here on the Forum,

from what I could see at the time, it looked like he ran into a few hotheads, that couldn't bear the fact

that he had produced an article that was more than relevant to the assassination, than anything they had done.

I should know I was one of the persons who invited him to appear on the forum....and I was

embarrassed at the way he was treated, in fact I have never invited anyone else to appear

on the Forum since then, although I am glad I invited Bill Kelly to come

While awaiting a response, Richard was the first researcher to produce additional

relevant factual information not generally known into areas such as LBJ attorney J Waddy Bullion,

Collins Radio, Jack Crichton, in which the main previous researcher who had explored

these areas was Peter Dale Scott in his unpublished manuscript The Dallas Conspiracy.

Questioning, or pointing out mistakes of researchers, is a popular pastime

here on the Forum,I understand why that is in a contentious debate where

facts are in question, but professionalism or a modicum of decency, would

seem to dictate backing up ones assertions with factual references,

although more often than not the end result is no good deed goes unpunished.

Robert, I agree.

Richard wasn't wrong, and if Karl has info of photos to back up the assertion there were two

Ramblers at DP then I'd like to see them.

BK

Edited September 16, 2011 by William Kelly

[Karl Kinaski]

Quote:

Possible Discovery of an Automobile Used

In the JFK Conspiracy

Copyright © 1993 by Richard Bartholomew

"On May 29, 1989, a Rambler station wagon was noticed on the campus of the University of Texas at Austin (UT) which fit the description of the getaway car reportedly seen by Craig, Robinson, Forrest, and Carr on November 22, 1963.8 A cursory examination of the car..." Close quote

There were TWO Ramblers waiting at the vicinity of the murder: one at the Eastside of the SBDB, the other on Record Street, not far away.

Therefore Georg Gordon Wing rode one of two gateway Ramblers during the second half of his lifetime: the Huston-Street Rambler, or the Record Street Rambler. (Note: both cars are documented on film/pic).

It is odd that when Researcher Bartholomew was on his heels, Wing died: exact on the day when Oliver Stones JFK was first shown in the US.

KK

Don't take this personally, but considering the title of your thread, could you provide some type of verification

instead of an, at this point, factually unsupported claim. It's not like you are dealing with a triviality.

Robert

BTW

Richard was treated like dirt when he, apparently made the mistake of assuming he was in the company

of researchers interested in his article when he appeared here on the Forum,

from what I could see at the time, it looked like he ran into a few hotheads, that couldn't bear the fact

that he had produced an article that was more than relevant to the assassination, than anything they had done.

I should know I was one of the persons who invited him to appear on the forum....and I was

embarrassed at the way he was treated, in fact I have never invited anyone else to appear

on the Forum since then, although I am glad I invited Bill Kelly to come

While awaiting a response, Richard was the first researcher to produce additional

relevant factual information not generally known into areas such as LBJ attorney J Waddy Bullion,

Collins Radio, Jack Crichton, in which the main previous researcher who had explored

these areas was Peter Dale Scott in his unpublished manuscript The Dallas Conspiracy.

Questioning, or pointing out mistakes of researchers, is a popular pastime

here on the Forum,I understand why that is in a contentious debate where

facts are in question, but professionalism or a modicum of decency, would

seem to dictate backing up ones assertions with factual references,

although more often than not the end result is no good deed goes unpunished.

Robert, I agree.

Richard wasn't wrong, and if Karl has info of photos to back up the assertion there were two

Ramblers at DP then I'd like to see them.

BK

Sorry Bartholomew mentioned the TWO Ramblers in an 1997 UPDATE. ( I forget that piece.)

The Rec Street Rambler can be seen on the Paschall film:

Bartholomew admits, that he ve not seen that film by that time.

Quote: Barth. 1997

Researcher Greg Jaynes discovered that there is a Rambler station wagon visible in the Paschall film. He does not know if it is the one that Roger Craig described seeing. But he is convinced that it is the one that Richard Carr described to Gary Shaw.

Greg reported that in 1963, Record Street ran on the east side of the Dallas County Criminal Courts/Records Building grounds, as well as the east side of the courthouse. Today, Record Street on the east side of the courthouse has been blocked off and is part of the plaza that is the John F. Kennedy memorial. Record Street, where it ran on the east side of the DCCC/RB grounds is now part of the Dallas County Historical plaza.

()

The following excerpt from his report explains this segment of the film, which is three and three fifteenths of a second in length:

"From tower, a shot to her right, aimed at the corner of Record and Main streets. (Record street is now blocked off and has been made into a plaza both on the east side of the Records building and east side of the old red courthouse. Also the buildings that were on the east side of Record street directly east of the two mentioned buildings have been torn down and the land they were built on is part of the plaza. The plaza on the east side of the old red courthouse is where the John F. Kennedy memorial is located today. And the plaza on the east side of the Records building is now called Dallas County Historical plaza.)

"A dark car is in the shadow of the old red courthouse on Main street. A police motorcycle is following at it's right rear.

"Parked at the near corner of Record and Main, on Record street facing south (the motorcade is passing directly in front of it) is a light colored Rambler station wagon. To the rear of the Rambler station wagon and parked bumper to bumper, a dark colored sedan the model is unrecognizable on video. Perhaps an examination of the film itself could reveal more.

()

Greg Jaynes' discovery appears to be an important find. I have not yet seen this film segment myself.

Greg and I met briefly after Patsy's presentation at the 1995 COPA meeting in Dallas. I asked him about whether Patsy's film showed anything relating to Craig's sighting. My question and his answer were both focused on the 12:40 incident on Elm Street, however. He said he didn't see anything. That was understandable since she was filming intermittently at that moment.

()

As for whether the Rambler Patsy filmed on Record Street is the one Craig saw, I do not know either. But I think the question is answerable. Greg's sighting has already answered some questions. We can now be sure enough that this is one of the Ramblers Richard Carr described. That alone makes it suspicious.

close quote

All I say is this: we still don't know, which Rambler the Oswald Gateway car was. (Seen by Craig)

Thus: Bartholomew is not wrong, but he did not solved the question, which Rambler was owned and used by Wing: the rec Street, or the Huston Street Rambler...

There is one person who saw both Ramblers: Richard Randolph Carr.

KK

Edited September 16, 2011 by Karl Kinaski

[Karl Kinaski]

Hi. Mods. I made a mistake. Can you change the title of this threat in: Richard Bartholomew, G.G Wing and the TWO Ramblers - thank you.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Karl Kinaski

[Robert Howard]

Hi. Mods. I made a mistake. Can you change the title of this threat in: Richard Bartholomew, G.G Wing and the TWO Ramblers - thank you.

Karl, I appreciate the clarification. God knows some of these topics and subtopics can be a little maddening in all the details.

I am really glad you went to the trouble regarding expounding on the two Ramblers, and hope you didn't take offense

as, I only wanted to know more.....

I will do what I can to find out more about this...

Well, irrespective of the Rambler issue, one interesting factoid has emerged, or remembered is a better word...

is from the 1996 update to Possible Discovery.......

In a development that brings further importance to that Rambler's similarities to Wing's, we have confirmed that

C.B. Smith's first wife, Fronia Ellen S. Smith, the mother of C.B. Smith Jr.,[ the sales manager at the time of the

April 1963 Rambler sale to George Wing], was working in the third floor, TSBD office of Macmillan Publishing Co.,

at the time of the assassination....

Maybe this will generate someone's interest besides myself regarding Mrs. John L (Carol) Hughes

See my post # 16 if one believes it is of possible relevance re the TSBD.

http://educationforu...pic=15323&st=15

Edited September 16, 2011 by Robert Howard

[Robert Howard]

Hi. Mods. I made a mistake. Can you change the title of this threat in: Richard Bartholomew, G.G Wing and the TWO Ramblers - thank you.

Karl, I appreciate the clarification. God knows some of these topics and subtopics can be a little maddening in all the details.

I am really glad you went to the trouble regarding expounding on the two Ramblers, and hope you didn't take offense

as, I only wanted to know more.....

I will do what I can to find out more about this...

Well, irrespective of the Rambler issue, one interesting factoid has emerged, or remembered is a better word...

is from the 1996 update to Possible Discovery.......

In a development that brings further importance to that Rambler's similarities to Wing's, we have confirmed that

C.B. Smith's first wife, Fronia Ellen S. Smith, the mother of C.B. Smith Jr.,[ the sales manager at the time of the

April 1963 Rambler sale to George Wing], was working in the third floor, TSBD office of Macmillan Publishing Co.,

at the time of the assassination....

Maybe this will generate someone's interest besides myself regarding Mrs. John L (Carol) Hughes

See my post # 16 if one believes it is of possible relevance re the TSBD.

http://educationforu...pic=15323&st=15

I guess what seems like important assassination related information to me, is just minutae to everyone else.

So that would mean the fact that C.B. Smith who sold THE Rambler to George Wing that may have been the car used

by the "other" Oswald to leave the TSBD*..his mother working for the MacMillan Publishing Co., inside the TSBD on November 22, 1963.....is deemed not worth responding to......

Interesting

* Lee Oswald could not have left the Depository at 12:31 C.D.T and also left at 12:40 C.D.T on November 22, 1963

hence the quotation marks surrounding "other."

Maybe a new reference to a Rambler will awaken the Land of Nod,

in this case, what appears to be a phone call by Harry Olsen to a Rambler

dealership in California using Kathy Kay Coleman's telephone......

Home/Archive/Documents/JFK Assassination Documents/JFK Documents - Federal Bureau of Investigation/FBI Ruby Headquarters File (44-24016)/

FBI 44-24016 Ruby HQ File, Section 82

page 7, telephone number 735-9111 is listed to the Sands Hotel, 3717 Las Vegas Boulevard, South, Las Vegas

page 8, telephone toll charges Kathy Kay Coleman Harry Olsen

investigation of Southwestern Bell Records no service in the name of Harry Olsen

page 45

REPORT OF LONG DISTANCE

TELEPHONE CALLS

Telephone Number

534-4545

Subscriber

Grove Rambler Sales, Inc.

12222 Garden Grove Boulevard.

Garden Grove, California

Dates Called

1/7/64

end

also see CD 1470 page 27

http://www.maryferre...65&relPageId=27

Commission Document 1470 - FBI Letter from Director of 08 Sep 1964 with Attachments re: Olsen Long Distance Calls pg 26

-published 10132 Malinda Lane Garden Grove California Wells and Sons 5/21/64 Wholesale Provisions 11162 Wasco Road Garden Grove California Laurentide Finance 5/18/64 Corporation 12190 Brookhurst Garden

(UNDATED)

Or maybe a photo, people seem to like photo's

I really believe only about 10% of the Forum seems eager

about following the final JFK assassination questions through

to their final resolution, everyone else..........??????

well, what would you think about the response to this thread?

I would think JFK's memory and why we are all members in the

first place, would demand a little better, I don't plan

on spending the rest of my life posting on the Forum.

You might wake up one day and find the only posts

here are by people who are convinced Oswald

acted alone........

When the going gets tough, the tough go to Disneyland?

Edited September 17, 2011 by Robert Howard

[Mark Knight]

Robert, I follow your posts. I read the information with an open mind AND with great interest.

But I ONLY post when I have something to add. In the case of multiple Ramblers, I really have nothing factual to add. But the fact that I have nothing to add does NOT indicate an indifference, or a lack of interest, on my part. It simply means that I can neither add to, or argue with, the content of your posts.

At this point, I would encourage you to continue your research wherever it leads. SOME of us have no set agenda, or [as in my own case] have set aside pre-conceived notions about the assassination in order to be receptive to the TRUTH, if and/or when it ever emerges.

[Robert Howard]

Robert, I follow your posts. I read the information with an open mind AND with great interest.

But I ONLY post when I have something to add. In the case of multiple Ramblers, I really have nothing factual to add. But the fact that I have nothing to add does NOT indicate an indifference, or a lack of interest, on my part. It simply means that I can neither add to, or argue with, the content of your posts.

At this point, I would encourage you to continue your research wherever it leads. SOME of us have no set agenda, or [as in my own case] have set aside pre-conceived notions about the assassination in order to be receptive to the TRUTH, if and/or when it ever emerges.

Thanks Mark, I can be a little obsessive at times, and I guess it is unfair to expect a lot of fellow OCD'ers to miraculously appear. lol

[Robert Howard]

Robert, I follow your posts. I read the information with an open mind AND with great interest.

But I ONLY post when I have something to add. In the case of multiple Ramblers, I really have nothing factual to add. But the fact that I have nothing to add does NOT indicate an indifference, or a lack of interest, on my part. It simply means that I can neither add to, or argue with, the content of your posts.

At this point, I would encourage you to continue your research wherever it leads. SOME of us have no set agenda, or [as in my own case] have set aside pre-conceived notions about the assassination in order to be receptive to the TRUTH, if and/or when it ever emerges.

Thanks Mark, I can be a little obsessive at times, and I guess it is unfair to expect a lot of fellow OCD'ers to miraculously appear. lol

Hi Robert

FWIW. Your posts fascinate me. The detail you manage to pull out of the documented record is nothing short of amazing. The problem I am faced with regarding your posts is that you generally steer clear of putting your own frame of reference on them. You regularly post a massive amount of detail but don't pull it together into a cohesive "and here's what I think this means" narrative. There are pros and cons to this, IMO.

I hope what I have just said there comes across in the right way because I say it with the best of intentions but I prefer it when Robert Howard comes out fighting (like on this thread) to the beat of his own convictions concerning what he thinks is right and wrong within his own understanding of the assassination plot, and we don't see that very often.

Here's the gauge for me. If someone was to ask me what Bill Kelly overarching high level view was concerning the assassination I could probably hit the sweet spot. The same with Jim DiEu, Greg Parker, etc, etc.

If someone was to ask me what Robert Howard's high-level view was, I don't think I would be able to give an answer. Now I don't know whether that's because I haven't followed your posts since you became a member or whether it is simply part of your style. But I would be very interested to know what all this information means to you within some sort of Robert Howard narrative. I think it would blow mine, and many other members, socks off.

The Kathy Kay/Harry Olsen stuff is a key part of the post-assassination shenanigans IMO and to know that they spent hours with Jack Ruby on the night of the 22nd is a massive alarm, as is Olsen's sham moonlighting job after taking the day off work with a dodgy leg that he could never prove.

You are a researcher of the highest calibre, and I wish I had the time to pursue and look further into the type of work that you and Tom Scully put together but the harsh reality is that my time is short and I'm off looking into my own things when I do get a spare half hour.

Best regards

Lee

Lee, I never saw this post you made until a few minutes ago, and I had come on to let everyone who saw my comments, [it may not be on this thread] about putting together

everything I have on the Nash Rambler's in one cohesive post, is behind schedule, I had intended to have it posted by Sunday at the latest. To be honest, I have been battling a sinus infection, and haven't exactly in a position to do so. But it is coming soon.

As to your comments Lee, I am very flattered, and I know what you are talking about when you say that you don't know what my position is on the dynamics of the assassination, who, what when where why. I used to approach the issue that until every question that is still unresolved is settled, I wouldn't have a position, but after

all these years, I have definitely come to some conclusions. Some would be surprising, some would fit in rather well, with predominating views here on the forum re certain

persons. For instance I do not believe the Lee Oswald who was born in 1939 was guilty of anything on the day of the assassination, I don't believe he shot Tippit, and I definitively do not believe he killed Kennedy. Going a step further, I believe Jack Ruby was guilty of involvement in the assassination, and I am not just talking about silencing Oswald, whereas I believe there are strong possibilities Oswald was trying to prevent the assassination.

Those are not exactly mainstream views, but I would just add that looking extensively through the microfiche files of the JFK assassination, something completely separate

from NARA, I have seen some documents that basically very few people have seen, insofar as within the "research community. John Armstrong had access to the same documents, besides a lot of other material, when he was working on Harvey & Lee.

At some point I will present my views, when it gets to the end of my road.

Robert

[Steve Duffy]

Hi. Mods. I made a mistake. Can you change the title of this threat in: Richard Bartholomew, G.G Wing and the TWO Ramblers - thank you.

Karl, I appreciate the clarification. God knows some of these topics and subtopics can be a little maddening in all the details.

I am really glad you went to the trouble regarding expounding on the two Ramblers, and hope you didn't take offense

as, I only wanted to know more.....

I will do what I can to find out more about this...

Well, irrespective of the Rambler issue, one interesting factoid has emerged, or remembered is a better word...

is from the 1996 update to Possible Discovery.......

In a development that brings further importance to that Rambler's similarities to Wing's, we have confirmed that

C.B. Smith's first wife, Fronia Ellen S. Smith, the mother of C.B. Smith Jr.,[ the sales manager at the time of the

April 1963 Rambler sale to George Wing], was working in the third floor, TSBD office of Macmillan Publishing Co.,

at the time of the assassination....

Maybe this will generate someone's interest besides myself regarding Mrs. John L (Carol) Hughes

See my post # 16 if one believes it is of possible relevance re the TSBD.

http://educationforu...pic=15323&st=15

I guess what seems like important assassination related information to me, is just minutae to everyone else.

So that would mean the fact that C.B. Smith who sold THE Rambler to George Wing that may have been the car used

by the "other" Oswald to leave the TSBD*..his mother working for the MacMillan Publishing Co., inside the TSBD on November 22, 1963.....is deemed not worth responding to......

Interesting

* Lee Oswald could not have left the Depository at 12:31 C.D.T and also left at 12:40 C.D.T on November 22, 1963

hence the quotation marks surrounding "other."

Maybe a new reference to a Rambler will awaken the Land of Nod,

in this case, what appears to be a phone call by Harry Olsen to a Rambler

dealership in California using Kathy Kay Coleman's telephone......

Home/Archive/Documents/JFK Assassination Documents/JFK Documents - Federal Bureau of Investigation/FBI Ruby Headquarters File (44-24016)/

FBI 44-24016 Ruby HQ File, Section 82

page 7, telephone number 735-9111 is listed to the Sands Hotel, 3717 Las Vegas Boulevard, South, Las Vegas

page 8, telephone toll charges Kathy Kay Coleman Harry Olsen

investigation of Southwestern Bell Records no service in the name of Harry Olsen

page 45

REPORT OF LONG DISTANCE

TELEPHONE CALLS

Telephone Number

534-4545

Subscriber

Grove Rambler Sales, Inc.

12222 Garden Grove Boulevard.

Garden Grove, California

Dates Called

1/7/64

end

also see CD 1470 page 27

http://www.maryferre...65&relPageId=27

Commission Document 1470 - FBI Letter from Director of 08 Sep 1964 with Attachments re: Olsen Long Distance Calls pg 26

-published 10132 Malinda Lane Garden Grove California Wells and Sons 5/21/64 Wholesale Provisions 11162 Wasco Road Garden Grove California Laurentide Finance 5/18/64 Corporation 12190 Brookhurst Garden

(UNDATED)

Or maybe a photo, people seem to like photo's

I really believe only about 10% of the Forum seems eager

about following the final JFK assassination questions through

to their final resolution, everyone else..........??????

well, what would you think about the response to this thread?

I would think JFK's memory and why we are all members in the

first place, would demand a little better, I don't plan

on spending the rest of my life posting on the Forum.

You might wake up one day and find the only posts

here are by people who are convinced Oswald

acted alone........

When the going gets tough, the tough go to Disneyland?

I agree, Robert, it's a shame that such great and interesting leads don't seem to be enough to generate the interest they should...

Do be aware, however, that there are those of us who appreciate the hard work you and many others here DO put in...

I've been away from the forum for a while, but when I come back, there are always certain tireless posters whose work I continue to read and be very impressed by...if I don't reply, its for the same reasons Mark pointed out...speaking for myself, in fact, I can feel intimidated by the wealth of knowledge shown here....

[Robert Howard]

I agree, Robert, it's a shame that such great and interesting leads don't seem to be enough to generate the interest they should...Do be aware, however, that there are those of us who appreciate the hard work you and many others here DO put in...

I've been away from the forum for a while, but when I come back, there are always certain tireless posters whose work I continue to read and be very impressed by...if I don't reply, its for the same reasons Mark pointed out...speaking for myself, in fact, I can feel intimidated by the wealth of knowledge shown here....

Well Steve, your comments are appreciated, and it works both ways, I know you do some very important JFK related stuff, and I guess we both know how the Forum can be a blessing and a curse. On the good part, any detailed analysis of the Kennedy Assassination that doesn't jibe with the Might Wurlitzer's of our time and the official mouthpieces of the Oswald did it school, Gerald Posner, Vincent Bugliosi, Hugh Aynesworth, always references posts on the Education Forum, on the bad side, any Joe Schmo nowadays, we used to call them trolls can come on the Forum and claim anything about the assassination, short of aliens killed JFK, without even providing any type of documentation, except

citing an erroneous passage on Spartacus Schoolnet, and have an instant readership, as boxing promoter Don King once said, "Only In America."

So, I decided a while back I would never personally be part of any group or persons associated with the Forum, whose Modus Operandi included extensive use of positing that the Hidden Hand of the assassination, could be lumped up as a group, whether it is LBJ, British internationalists, the Mob, Oswald alone or any other group in which, for the most part the word "they," could be substituted. Our elections may be determined by a "People Magazine," mentality, ie "he seems like a very nice man" versus "these are his qualifications and worldview for making America great again," but I damn well will do everything possible to ridicule and eviscerate the Revisionist History, that Jesus was a Republican, that our founding fathers all attended Sunday School and would have been evangelical Protestant's were they alive today.

Having said all of that, I believe Richard Bartholomew's Possible Discovery of an Automobile.......as well as it stands up today as a JFK Research piece, left unmentioned

a significant piece of information.....

Before I posted this, I knew it would be misconstrued by the Mighty Wurlitzer's as "now they're even dragging him into the assassination of JFK," when that is not my point at all,

but if you look at it from my point of view, if no one would ever know it, don't you think it demands to be made part of the record.

George Romney Dies at 88; A Leading G.O.P. Figure

By DAVID E. ROSENBAUM

Published: July 27, 1995

George W. Romney, an automobile executive who became a three-term Governor of Michigan, a Republican Presidential candidate and a member of the Nixon Cabinet, died yesterday at his home in Bloomfield Hills, Mich., a Detroit suburb. He was 88.

His wife, Lenore, whom he married in 1931, found him collapsed yesterday morning on the treadmill in the exercise room of their home, their son G. Scott Romney said. The office of the Oakland County Medical Examiner issued a statement saying only that Mr. Romney had died of natural causes.

Mr. Romney was chairman and president of the American Motors Corporation when he resigned in 1962 to run, successfully, for Governor. He ran for the Republican Presidential nomination in 1968 but dropped out of the race just before the New Hampshire primary. He then served as Secretary of Housing and Urban Development in President Richard M. Nixon's first term.

Mr. Romney represented the liberal wing of the Republican Party, supporting civil rights initiatives and Government social programs and opposing the war in Vietnam. His politics proved successful in Michigan, where he was elected Governor three times, by increasingly large margins.

But as a politician on the national stage, he seemed wooden. He was ridiculed because of a remark in 1967 that he had originally supported the war in Vietnam because he had been "brainwashed" by generals and diplomats during a visit there in 1965. As Housing Secretary, he was outside President Nixon's inner circle and was relegated to pleading in vain for an expansion of urban and other domestic programs.

Mr. Romney resigned after Mr. Nixon was re-elected in 1972 and essentially retired from public life. But he re-emerged last year to campaign actively for his other son, Mitt, who ran for the Senate in Massachusetts and lost to the incumbent, Edward M. Kennedy.

George Wilcken Romney was born in 1907 in a Mormon colony in Chihuahua, Mexico. His parents were American citizens and monogamists, but they had moved to Mexico along with many other Mormons when Congress outlawed polygamy in the 1880's.

His parents moved back to the United States when he was a child, and he was reared in Idaho and Utah. He served two years as a Mormon missionary in England and Scotland. He also attended several colleges but never graduated.

As a young man, Mr. Romney worked in Washington as a speechwriter for a Democratic Senator from Massachusetts, David T. Walsh. He then became a Washington lobbyist for the aluminum industry and an official of the Automobile Manufacturers Association.

In 1948, he joined the Nash-Kelvinator Corporation. Six years later, Nash-Kelvinator merged with the Hudson Motor Car Company to create American Motors, and Mr. Romney became president of the company. He managed to rescue American Motors from near collapse with a successful promotion of the company's Rambler as a midget mightier than Detroit's "gas-guzzling dinosaurs."

He also became engaged in civic affairs, heading a citizens' committee for Detroit's schools and organizing a political group, Citizens for Michigan, to study Detroit's problems.

In 1962, after weeks of agonizing and a 24-hour prayerful fast, Mr. Romney resigned from American Motors to run for Governor against the Democratic incumbent, John B. Swainson. With an appeal to labor unions unusual for a Republican, Mr. Romney won by 78,000 votes and became the first Republican Governor of Michigan in 14 years.

He was re-elected in 1964 and 1966. In 1967, he became the first announced candidate for the 1968 Republican Presidential nomination.

In the early campaigning in New Hampshire, Mr. Romney was a front-runner. But as the weeks went by, he was increasingly dogged by his remark about having been brainwashed. The perception grew, fairly or not, that he was a witless candidate with his foot in his mouth.

Mr. Romney always maintained that his real problem had been that there was not room for both him and Gov. Nelson A. Rockefeller of New York as candidates to the left of Mr. Nixon. But Mr. Rockefeller did not enter the race in earnest until the Romney candidacy had faltered.

As Housing Secretary, Mr. Romney tried to expand public housing and move some of it into the suburbs. He did increase somewhat the amount of federally subsidized housing, but others in the Administration blocked his efforts to place it in suburbs.

In retirement, Mr. Romney remained physically active, walking several miles a day and playing golf.

In addition to his wife and two sons, he is survived by two daughters, Lynn Keenan and Jane Romney; 23 grandchildren, and 33 great-grandchildren.

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/07/27/obituaries/george-romney-dies-at-88-a-leading-gop-figure.html?pagewanted=2&src=pm

More regarding the evolution of Nash-Kelvinator

Mitt Romney

As managing director of the Automobile Manufacturers Association, Romney became good friends with then-president George W. Mason. When Mason became chairman of the manufacturing firm Nash-Kelvinator in 1948, he invited Romney along "to learn the business from the ground up" as his roving assistant. As Mason's protégé, Romney assumed executive assignment for the development of the Rambler. Mason had long sought a merger of Nash-Kelvinator with one or more other companies, and on May 1, 1954, it merged with Hudson Motor Car to become the American Motors Corporation. It was the largest merger in the history of the industry, and Romney became an executive vice president of the new firm. In October 1954, Mason suddenly died of acute pancreatitis and pneumonia. Romney was named AMC's Chairman and CEO.

When Romney took over, he reorganized upper management, brought in younger executives, and pruned and rebuilt AMC's dealer network. Romney believed that the only way to compete with the "Big Three" (General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler) was to stake the future of AMC on a new small car line.Together with chief engineer Meade Moore, by the end of 1957 Romney had completely phased out the Nash and Hudson brands whose sales had been lagging.The Rambler brand was selected for development and promotion, as AMC pursued an innovative strategy: manufacturing only compact cars. The company struggled badly at first, losing money in 1956, more in 1957, and experiencing defections from its dealer network. Romney instituted company-wide savings and efficiency measures and he and other executives reduced their salaries by up to 35 percent. AMC was on the verge of being taken over by corporate raider Louis Wolfson, but Romney was able to fend him off. Then sales of the Rambler finally took off, leading to unexpected financial success for AMC. It posted its first quarterly profit in three years in 1958, was the only car company to show increased sales during the recession of 1958, and moved from thirteenth to seventh place among worldwide auto manufacturers. In contrast with the Hudson's NASCAR racing success in the early 1950s, the Ramblers were frequent winners in the coast-to-coast Mobil Economy Run, an annual event on U.S. highways. Sales remained strong during 1960 and 1961, with the Rambler being America's third most popular car during both years. In 1963, Motor Trend magazine named the Nash Rambler as its car of the year, and the day of President Kennedy’s assassination a Nash Rambler figured prominently in the story of the events surrounding Oswald’s exit from the Texas School Book Depository, although that fact is never mentioned by mainstream news retrospectives of the assassination.....As Don King only said "Only in America."

I am not inferring anything about the late George Romney, but I do find his life to have had some weird associations, but a member of a family of Mormon missionaries from Mexico, [reminds me of the Mormon Church next to where the phony assassination attempt on General Edwin Walker took place], and the fact that he was the candidate that JFK took very seriously, as opposed to Barry Goldwater, and then the Rambler thing, and this is not some doppelganger with the same name. So I guess this is all sort of the JFK assassination meets Ripley's Believe It or Not.....

Cheers

[William Kelly]

Hi. Mods. I made a mistake. Can you change the title of this threat in: Richard Bartholomew, G.G Wing and the TWO Ramblers - thank you.

Karl, I appreciate the clarification. God knows some of these topics and subtopics can be a little maddening in all the details.

I am really glad you went to the trouble regarding expounding on the two Ramblers, and hope you didn't take offense

as, I only wanted to know more.....

I will do what I can to find out more about this...

Well, irrespective of the Rambler issue, one interesting factoid has emerged, or remembered is a better word...

is from the 1996 update to Possible Discovery.......

In a development that brings further importance to that Rambler's similarities to Wing's, we have confirmed that

C.B. Smith's first wife, Fronia Ellen S. Smith, the mother of C.B. Smith Jr.,[ the sales manager at the time of the

April 1963 Rambler sale to George Wing], was working in the third floor, TSBD office of Macmillan Publishing Co.,

at the time of the assassination....

Maybe this will generate someone's interest besides myself regarding Mrs. John L (Carol) Hughes

See my post # 16 if one believes it is of possible relevance re the TSBD.

http://educationforu...pic=15323&st=15

I guess what seems like important assassination related information to me, is just minutae to everyone else.

So that would mean the fact that C.B. Smith who sold THE Rambler to George Wing that may have been the car used

by the "other" Oswald to leave the TSBD*..his mother working for the MacMillan Publishing Co., inside the TSBD on November 22, 1963.....is deemed not worth responding to......

Interesting

* Lee Oswald could not have left the Depository at 12:31 C.D.T and also left at 12:40 C.D.T on November 22, 1963

hence the quotation marks surrounding "other."

Maybe a new reference to a Rambler will awaken the Land of Nod,

in this case, what appears to be a phone call by Harry Olsen to a Rambler

dealership in California using Kathy Kay Coleman's telephone......

Home/Archive/Documents/JFK Assassination Documents/JFK Documents - Federal Bureau of Investigation/FBI Ruby Headquarters File (44-24016)/

FBI 44-24016 Ruby HQ File, Section 82

page 7, telephone number 735-9111 is listed to the Sands Hotel, 3717 Las Vegas Boulevard, South, Las Vegas

page 8, telephone toll charges Kathy Kay Coleman Harry Olsen

investigation of Southwestern Bell Records no service in the name of Harry Olsen

page 45

REPORT OF LONG DISTANCE

TELEPHONE CALLS

Telephone Number

534-4545

Subscriber

Grove Rambler Sales, Inc.

12222 Garden Grove Boulevard.

Garden Grove, California

Dates Called

1/7/64

end

also see CD 1470 page 27

http://www.maryferre...65&relPageId=27

Commission Document 1470 - FBI Letter from Director of 08 Sep 1964 with Attachments re: Olsen Long Distance Calls pg 26

-published 10132 Malinda Lane Garden Grove California Wells and Sons 5/21/64 Wholesale Provisions 11162 Wasco Road Garden Grove California Laurentide Finance 5/18/64 Corporation 12190 Brookhurst Garden

(UNDATED)

Or maybe a photo, people seem to like photo's

I really believe only about 10% of the Forum seems eager

about following the final JFK assassination questions through

to their final resolution, everyone else..........??????

well, what would you think about the response to this thread?

I would think JFK's memory and why we are all members in the

first place, would demand a little better, I don't plan

on spending the rest of my life posting on the Forum.

You might wake up one day and find the only posts

here are by people who are convinced Oswald

acted alone........

When the going gets tough, the tough go to Disneyland?

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

I really believe only about 10% of the Forum seems eager

about following the final JFK assassination questions through

to their final resolution, everyone else..........??????

well, what would you think about the response to this thread?

I would think JFK's memory and why we are all members in the

first place, would demand a little better, I don't plan

on spending the rest of my life posting on the Forum.

You might wake up one day and find the only posts

here are by people who are convinced Oswald

acted alone........

When the going gets tough, the tough go to Disneyland?

Bill,

Well, I'm interested. Especially because I'm convinced that I've found three Rambler station wagons in the photos: a Rambler station wagon parked behind the pickup truck on Elm Street Extension in the Croft photo corresponding to Z-161, a Rambler station wagon (with its headlights on) in the parking lot behind the grassy knoll in a photo (and the Dallas Cinema Associates film) taken about ten minutes later, and, in a Cancellare photo, a Rambler station wagon (with a young man riding shotgun!) passing right by the large cluster of shocked people standing on the grassy knoll and sidewalk (which photo was taken from the grassy knoll with the camera pointed towards Elm Street).

Don't feel too discouraged, Bill. Very few people seem to be interested in what I've posted about these "discoveries" I've made over the past few years, either.

Carry on and keep up the good work!

PS-- The Murray_Rambler.jpg link you put in your last post brings up an error message for me. Did you test it after you posted it?

--Tommy

proud former owner of a 1961 Rambler "Cross Country" station wagon

Edited November 12, 2011 by Thomas Graves