Richard Carr source data

[Ron Bulman]

5 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

This picture shows the construction scaffolding around the (to be) courts building which would have extended out from the walls 6-8' I'd think.  Carr was climbing stairs within this scaffolding or stairs constructed on the out side of the scaffolding.  If you look to the right of center of the scaffolding on the Houston street side, see the whitish looking jagged "line" going up?  Either case would increase the chance that he Could have seen the purported sniper window although at one point he said it was the second window over.  That said, if a person or persons were observed in windows other than the One partially opened, I've read the windows were filthy and with no lighting inside it seems it would have been difficult to determine if a sport coat was brown, tan or even gray.  As for identifying horn rimmed glasses... maybe Carr had better than 20/20 vision.

I have seen a better, larger, closer picture of just primarily the courts building in 1963 but couldn't find it.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=rStjJGIG&id=D97397998839E54FA6566B91ED57C2EDB6EED3E8&thid=OIP.rStjJGIG0aUI0d0pJdQhqgHaFc&mediaurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.thomasladegaard.dk%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2013%2f05%2fDealey-Plaza-2.jpg&exph=427&expw=580&q=dealey+plaza+pictures+1963&simid=608043114097150675&selectedIndex=243&ajaxhist=0  

 

6 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

This picture shows the construction scaffolding around the (to be) courts building which would have extended out from the walls 6-8' I'd think.  Carr was climbing stairs within this scaffolding or stairs constructed on the out side of the scaffolding.  If you look to the right of center of the scaffolding on the Houston street side, see the whitish looking jagged "line" going up?  Either case would increase the chance that he Could have seen the purported sniper window although at one point he said it was the second window over.  That said, if a person or persons were observed in windows other than the One partially opened, I've read the windows were filthy and with no lighting inside it seems it would have been difficult to determine if a sport coat was brown, tan or even gray.  As for identifying horn rimmed glasses... maybe Carr had better than 20/20 vision.

I have seen a better, larger, closer picture of just primarily the courts building in 1963 but couldn't find it.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=rStjJGIG&id=D97397998839E54FA6566B91ED57C2EDB6EED3E8&thid=OIP.rStjJGIG0aUI0d0pJdQhqgHaFc&mediaurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.thomasladegaard.dk%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2013%2f05%2fDealey-Plaza-2.jpg&exph=427&expw=580&q=dealey+plaza+pictures+1963&simid=608043114097150675&selectedIndex=243&ajaxhist=0  

Edit/addendum to this post.  If Carr had seen a heavy set man with a hat sports coat and glasses on the 6th floor of the TSBD from the 6th or 7th floor of the courts building scaffolding (he mentions both, 6th in his statement, 7th in New Orleans for Garrison, if you climb 6/7 stories without numbers might you loose track?).  Then while descending he saw a heavy set man in a hat and sportscoat with glasses exiting the rear of the TSBD and then heading South on Houston...  When Carr got to the ground and the corner of Houston and Commerce, with the man coming toward him, across the street then turning East on Commerce... He would have had a much better chance to identify the color of his coat and that the glasses were horn rimmed.

[Ron Bulman]

"a pipefitter and myself were on the Seventh Floor of the - on the outside of this structure" 

"I object to his previous statements to the FBI"  (Dymond).

"I object to what the man made a statement concerning".

http://jfk-online.com/carrshaw.html

[Ron Bulman]

RE: FBI conversation with Carr = "I done as I was instructed, I shut my mouth".

"Were you called before the Warren Commission ?"

"No sir."

 

[Ron Bulman]

After my last post on this thread I thought I'd consult a primary source regarding Carr.  Jim Garrison's On the Trail of the Assassin's.  I  knew I had it and thought I'd read it.  Right and wrong.  It wasn't on the top shelf where it should be.  Looked around further, thought I don't remember reading it.  Thought I might be mistaken, though I remembered the cover of the copy I still have.  So I ordered it for six bucks total on amazon.  Then I found my old paperback copy on the bottom shelf.  Bought from a second hand bookstore, missing most of the pages I was interested in due to a poorly glued spline, they had fallen out.  So I couldn't have read all of it.  

My "new" six buck hard back copy came in, a first edition from 1988 in excellent condition cover and all.  Not much new to me about Carr in it.  It does say he was coming down the stairway on the outside of the building he was working on*.  And that he was descending them when he saw the four men exit the rear of the TSBD.  I.E., regarding his credibility, if the construction stairway was on the outside of the framework of courthouse being built he might have been able to see past the "Old Red" courthouse to North Houston to the back of the TSBD.

The "new" copy has a newspaper cut out from the New York Times Book Review Best Sellers ranking with a hand written date of Feb 12, 1992  taped on the outside of the cover page.  On The Trail Of The Assassins is # 1, on the top 10 list for 9 weeks.  Number 4 is Jim Marrs Crossfire, on the list for four weeks.  Number 8 is High Treason by Groden and Livingstone for 14 weeks.  My how times have changed.  News papers are almost obsolete. The film JFK in 1991 caused the furthered popularity of these books, upon which it was based.

We need a new spate of books from respected authors on the subject  before they become senile and too forgetful as well as their collaboration with Oliver Stone on a new updated version of JFK, "The Movie".  For the sake of History And Posterity, please cooperate.  Yes I know Dr. Newman is still pontificating and I am ignorant regarding the extent of his and Larry Hancock's continuing work.  

 

   

[Ron Bulman]

On 11/9/2011 at 1:31 PM, Lee Forman said:

Hi all. Does anyone have the report cited by this RIF below?

Spartacus has a quote from Carr which I have been unable to verify.

I cannot find where Carr told the FBI, or anyone else, any such thing. Aside from the Clay Shaw transcript, the only other genuine source data I can find is a reference to that one page FBI report - which I was unable to find at Ferrell.

I could be wrong - but the source of the quote may, ironically, have come from an article written by Armstrong about getting the facts right.

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/25th_Issue/facts.html

Anyone know where Armstrong got this info? Does CD385 refer to the disc that came with his book [which I no longer have], or to the original FBI report?

Here's what he said at the Clay Shaw trial summarized and quoted:

- was watching from his position on the 7th floor of the new courthouse building on Houston

- saw three men exit the TSBD and get into the Rambler and drive it NORTH

- a fourth man walked up Houston and banged a left on Commerce and Carr watched him until he was out of sight

Would very much appreciate any additional genuine reference material which would support the quote from Armstrong's article, and an understanding of the source data.

I'm bumping this post for the document at the top of it Lee Foreman started it over.  I don't want to get into the things he posts below it or the rest of the thread but I don't think his question was ever answered.  The date of it, 11/30/1963 is what rings a bell for me.  But I don't know where/how to look for further info on it.

Carr's first statement was reportedly on 1/3/64.  Report written by agents Kesler and Mitchem2mja(?) on 1/4.  Dictated 1/8, then officially dated January 14, 1964.

Greg Parker in the second post in this thread said it links to this.

showDoc.html (maryferrell.org)

Which initially seemed to make sense, the Record Series: DL and Agency File Number 100-10461-201 appear on it.  But Lee's document says, Pages : 1.

The link is to Carr's originally hand written 2/1/64 "reinterview" (Thanks Malcom Blunt and Bart Kamp)  dictated and dated 2/4/64, witnessed by agent Scott.  It runs 3 1/2 pages. 

Then there's the fact that the document is about A Richard A. Carr.  Not Richard Randolph Carr.  BUT linked to HIS 2/24 statement, Record Series : DL and agency file number.  A misinterpretation of a R as an A?  IDK.

Is there any way to further research Record Number:  124-10037-10131?

Larry Hancock, Steve Thomas, David Boylan, anybody?

[Larry Hancock]

Ron, I have to refer  you to the earlier documents I posted - including the fact that Carr said he was applying for work at that bu ilding not working there and indeed dropped his story about what he supposedly saw in a job interview later.

As to what what I'm doing in regard to continuing work, I think everyone should be familiar with that - one book last year (In Denial) which delved among other things into the Cuba Project and some pretty sensational information about JFK and the Bay of Pigs that got little discussion, the extensive 2020 Wheaton Leads paper, and a 2021 book (Tipping Point) already serialized, that's it.  I have no further research/writing planned although I will hang around to offer occasional commentary or respond to questions.

As to further research on Carr, I satisfied myself on that some time ago as I've noted so I'm afraid I have nothing more to offer.

[David Boylan]

13 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I'm bumping this post for the document at the top of it Lee Foreman started it over.  I don't want to get into the things he posts below it or the rest of the thread but I don't think his question was ever answered.  The date of it, 11/30/1963 is what rings a bell for me.  But I don't know where/how to look for further info on it.

Carr's first statement was reportedly on 1/3/64.  Report written by agents Kesler and Mitchem2mja(?) on 1/4.  Dictated 1/8, then officially dated January 14, 1964.

Greg Parker in the second post in this thread said it links to this.

showDoc.html (maryferrell.org)

Which initially seemed to make sense, the Record Series: DL and Agency File Number 100-10461-201 appear on it.  But Lee's document says, Pages : 1.

The link is to Carr's originally hand written 2/1/64 "reinterview" (Thanks Malcom Blunt and Bart Kamp)  dictated and dated 2/4/64, witnessed by agent Scott.  It runs 3 1/2 pages. 

Then there's the fact that the document is about A Richard A. Carr.  Not Richard Randolph Carr.  BUT linked to HIS 2/24 statement, Record Series : DL and agency file number.  A misinterpretation of a R as an A?  IDK.

Is there any way to further research Record Number:  124-10037-10131?

Larry Hancock, Steve Thomas, David Boylan, anybody?

Hey Ron,

Here's Carr's Garrison testimony - showDoc.html (maryferrell.org)

This is Carr's "reinterview" in Feb 1964 - showDoc.html (maryferrell.org)

Carr's original statement. - https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10730#relPageId=32

 

[Ron Bulman]

10 hours ago, David Boylan said:

Hey Ron,

Here's Carr's Garrison testimony - showDoc.html (maryferrell.org)

This is Carr's "reinterview" in Feb 1964 - showDoc.html (maryferrell.org)

Carr's original statement. - https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10730#relPageId=32

 

Thanks David.  I printed all three of these some time ago for further review, to highlight some points and never did it.  I imagine you know Malcom Blunt found the hand written statement by Carr regarding the reinterview.  

I know I should probably forget about him but the document in question aroused a latent interest in a couple of aspects of his storie(s) for me.  It mystifies me.  I'm not good at understanding documents.

As I'd mentioned it's dated 11/30/63.  Over a month before the first known contact of Carr to the FBI, supposedly initiated by him.

But it's From: (a)  Richard A. Carr, To :  SAC, DL (Dallas?).  The Originator Is the FBI.  The "Subjects :  JFK, Assistance" part connects it to the assassination, eight days after it.   Did the FBI have an agent named Richard A. Carr working on the investigation it had already closed eight day's after it?

The "Record Series: DL" and "To: SAC, DL" lead me to think the Dallas office.  The DL and the "Agency File Number : 100-10461-201" appear on the typed 2/4/64 statement by Carr, linked above by David.

What I'm really wondering, is there a way to find FBI Record Number : 124-10037-10131?  One page, from 11/30/1963,  as opposed to the Four pages of his 2/4/1964 statement.

Was the FBI interested in Carr eight days after the assassination?   

   

     

Edited March 17, 2021 by Ron Bulman

[Joseph McBride]

Pluralization is not accomplished with apostrophes. "Loose" does not mean "lose." I

see this kind of stuff all the time. It's elementary or used to be. When you

read such errors, you lose faith in the writer and get distracted from the

intended content.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Joseph McBride

[Ron Bulman]

23 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Thanks David.  I printed all three of these some time ago for further review, to highlight some points and never did it.  I imagine you know Malcom Blunt found the hand written statement by Carr regarding the reinterview.  

I know I should probably forget about him but the document in question aroused a latent interest in a couple of aspects of his storie(s) for me.  It mystifies me.  I'm not good at understanding documents.

As I'd mentioned it's dated 11/30/63.  Over a month before the first known contact of Carr to the FBI, supposedly initiated by him.

But it's From: (a)  Richard A. Carr, To :  SAC, DL (Dallas?).  The Originator Is the FBI.  The "Subjects :  JFK, Assistance" part connects it to the assassination, eight days after it.   Did the FBI have an agent named Richard A. Carr working on the investigation it had already closed eight day's after it?

The "Record Series: DL" and "To: SAC, DL" lead me to think the Dallas office.  The DL and the "Agency File Number : 100-10461-201" appear on the typed 2/4/64 statement by Carr, linked above by David.

What I'm really wondering, is there a way to find FBI Record Number : 124-10037-10131?  One page, from 11/30/1963,  as opposed to the Four pages of his 2/4/1964 statement.

Was the FBI interested in Carr eight days after the assassination?   

   

     

What I'm really really wondering about is Carrs interview with Gary Shaw in 1975.

He claimed two FBI agents came to his door and told him if he didn't see Oswald, you didn't witness it, and, "I better keep my mouth shut".   Not long after his home was raided  by 12 DPD officers with a search warrant looking for stolen goods, next, get out of Texas, which he did, that story goes deeper.

But might the 11/30/63 FBI report of Richard A Carr's report to SAC DL relate to Richard R. Carr's 1975 statement of two FBI agents at his door.  And his 1969 Garrison/Shaw statement about "keep my mouth shut" , and, "I did"?

It would be interesting to know Mr. Shaws  opinion of Carr's veracity given he was the only one to publish an interview with him as opposed to FBI statements, Garrison's limited questioning and Dymond's badgering.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Ron Bulman

[Ron Bulman]

On 6/16/2013 at 9:25 PM, Josh Cron said:

Cover-Up by Gary Shaw, interview by Shaw in April of 1975 (pg.13)

Mrs. Walther was not the only person to see a man wearing a brown suit coat on an upper floor of the Depository. Steelworker Richard Randolph Carr was working on the seventh story of the new courthouse building, then under construction at Commerce and Houston Streets. Carr saw, standing on the sixth floor of the Depository, a heavy-set man wearing a hat, tan sportcoat and horn-rimmed glasses. Very shortly after the President was shot Carr observed a Rambler station wagon with a luggage rack parked facing north alongside the eastern side of the Depository and on the wrong side of Houston Street. Two men ran from either inside or from behind the building and entered the Rambler, which left in such a hurry that one of its doors was still open; Carr last saw the station wagon speeding north on Houston.
After climbing to the ground, to see what had happened, Carr looked up Houston Street and saw the same man in the tan jacket that he had seen in the Book Depository. Carr told the author that the man was “in an extreme hurry and kept looking over his shoulder.” He was last seen walking rapidly eastward on Commerce Street. Carr was not called to testify before the Warren Commission.
But the experience he had with agencies investigating the President’s murder was typical of that of several other witnesses. Carr told the author in a taped interview: “The FBI came to my house - there was two of them - and they said they heard I witnessed the assassination and I said I did. They told me, ‘If you didn’t see Lee Harvey Oswald in the School Book Depository with a rifle, you didn’t witness it.’ I said, ‘Well, the man I saw on television that they tell me is Lee Harvey Oswald was not in the window of the School Book Depository. That’s not the man.’ And he (the FBI agent) said I better keep my mouth shut. He did not ask me what I saw, he told me what I saw.”
Not long after the above visit, real harassment began. Like a number of other witnesses, Carr found that it could be frustrating - and downright dangerous - if one tried to contradict the official lie in favor of the facts. One night Carr was paid a visit by twelve Dallas policemen and detectives. With a search warrant they went through the entire home (“They tore up the house,” Carr said), supposedly searching for “stolen articles.” While this was done Carr and his wife were ordered to sit on a couch while two of the policemen held shotguns on them. They took Carr and his son to jail and held the elder overnight. His son was questioned for several hours as they attempted to make him admit that “stolen articles” were in his father’s house. The following day Carr received an anonymous telephone call advising him to “get out of Texas.” The threatening phone calls continued and finally, for the safety of his family, Carr moved to Montana.
Things for Carr were no better in Montana. One morning three sticks of dynamite were found wired to the ignition of his automobile. Fifteen days before he was to testify at the Clay Shaw trial in New Orleans, Carr stepped out on his front porch and was almost shot by a gunman; Carr was alerted by a policeman who lived next door and they were able to apprehend the would-be killer.
After testifying at the hearing for Shaw, Carr was attacked in Atlanta, Georgia by two men, one of which stabbed Carr in the back and in the left arm; the knife blade actually broke off in his arm. Carr shot one of the assailants three times, killing him. He then fled to relatives in West Virginia where he turned himself in and was later no-billed by an Atlanta jury.
Carr and his family were not bothered for several years. But in early 1975, as talk of reopening the JFK investigation increased, they began to receive more threatening phone calls. Now Carr no longer answers the telephone unless he is certain who is calling.

This is what makes me continue to wonder about the veracity of Carr.  His first and only chance I know of to speak openly.  

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

This is what makes me continue to wonder about the veracity of Carr.  His first and only chance I know of to speak openly.  

Depending on how far that scaffolding came out from the west side of the new courthouse building, and Carr's elevation, there may be a slim chance that he could see between the old courthouse turrets, past the west corner of the next building, and onto the TSBD. To believe everything he told Garrison, the sight line has to include Houston street level to the east of the TSBD.

Can you fly a drone?

 

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

Depending on how far that scaffolding came out from the west side of the new courthouse building, and Carr's elevation, there may be a slim chance that he could see between the old courthouse turrets, past the west corner of the next building, and onto the TSBD. To believe everything he told Garrison, the sight line has to include Houston street level to the east of the TSBD.

Can you fly a drone?

 

Bam!  No.  But you nailed my thoughts.  Modern technology might answer this question, though I'm sure  any results would be questioned.  A video drone operator with appropriate coordinates could provide an interesting perspective.

The scaffolding would have been about 4-6' wide.  The construction stairs at least another 6 to 8'.  Each may well have been more considering the infrastructure of the scaffolding and stairs.  

So the view from a drone 10-12-14' out from the west side of the building about 70' up?

The city and county might not like the idea of a drone so close to their building.  But an adept and adroit operator might provide a prescient view, before they knew it was done.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Ron Bulman