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Where is the CHECK/MO for Oswald's $10


David Josephs
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Only you know what is meaningless eh, Dave?

That is 100% correct.

Only you know what is irrelevant?

That is also correct.

Only you know what is chaff?

Hat trick.

And the criteria you use to make these decisions is what exactly?

I usually either toss a coin (a '64 mint-condition Kennedy half-dollar, naturally)....or I call up my CIA handlers at Langley and they push my buttons and tell me what to type into this box. Either way, I still get paid a goodly sum.

(And if my Langley boss is busy, I call up Marquette and get instructions from you-know-who.)

Edited by David Von Pein
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Still waiting for Farley's horn theory.

Of course, as we all know, NO JFK CONSPIRACY THEORY about the horn-honking makes a lick of sense, but that fact doesn't matter to conspiracy-seeking clowns like Farley. He likes the idea that the horn-honking was "conspiratorial", so, ergo, it's going to be conspiratorial.

Edited by David Von Pein
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I don't care how long he was in his room.

But it could be very important, because the WC's estimated times were being based on Earlene Roberts being RIGHT when she said that LHO was in his room for "3 to 4 minutes".

But just look at what ELSE Earlene Roberts said:

JOE BALL -- "How long did he [Oswald] stay in the room?"

EARLENE ROBERTS -- "Oh, maybe not over 3 or 4 minutes. Just long enough, I guess, to go in there and get a jacket and put it on and he went out zipping it." (Emphasis added by DVP.)

-------------

So, from Mrs. Roberts' OWN MOUTH, we have her saying that LHO likely wasn't in his room any longer than it would take "to go in there and get a jacket and put it on".

Also take note of the words "maybe" and "I guess" in Roberts' WC testimony there.

IOW--She was GUESSING. That's all. She wasn't timing Oswald with a stopwatch.

And I kinda doubt that it would take 3-4 minutes to just get a jacket. In fact, via the re-enactment done in THIS 1978 MOVIE (see Part 4), it took the actor playing Oswald a mere 22 seconds to do all the things that we're fairly certain Oswald did while he was in his room on 11/22--e.g., grab his gun and put his jacket on.

I'd be interested in learning how this one, brief statement in a witness's oral testimony differs from the (in)famous "surgery of the head" statement in the written record of a professional tasked with strict observance of a procedure by his superiors.

This is the same "hanging on a thread" that CTers are so often accused of doing, focusing on one statement out of many to "prove" a point. What is "wishful thinking" on the part of the goose is "solid testimony" to the gander, enough to bolster a point of view that's already so "solid" that it "needs no embellishment" to be actually and absolutely correct.

But even if the WC estimates are correct (with LHO leaving 1026 Beckley at precisely 1:03), there was still time enough for Oswald to get to the Tippit murder site by 1:14-1:15 (which is the best estimate for when Tippit's murder took place, being based primarily on the DPD radio tapes, which indicate that Bowley's call to the DPD occurred at 1:18, which followed about 90 seconds of microphone "pumping" by Domingo Benavides prior to Bowley taking the mike).

We know that the trip from 1026 Beckley to 10th & Patton can be done in about 11 minutes. Several people have done it in just that amount of time. (Plus, we can't possibly know how fast Oswald was walking, or exactly what route he took to get there.)

Let me ask you this, Lee:

Do you think it's reasonable to believe that Benavides waited for NINE MINUTES to grab Tippit's radio and start pumping the mike?

And via the most commonly-believed scenario among CTers of Tippit being killed at 1:06, you've got Benavides waiting for about TEN FULL MINUTES to get on that radio.

Frankly, Lee, that's goofy. Benavides didn't wait any nine or ten minutes before grabbing that microphone. And you know he didn't.

Hence, via the DPD tapes (and common sense, plus Benavides' testimony), Tippit was likely shot at about 1:14 or 1:15.

I guess we'd also have to ask the question, since we're using "common sense" here, exactly how long it took for a crowd to gather, and – while we're at it – exactly how many people constitutes a "crowd."

If, when Tom Bowley arrived at 10th & Denver, there were only two people gathered at the crime scene, would that be a "crowd?" Would it be if there were six people gathered there? Ten? If it were only the Davis girls, the boys from Ted Calloway's place (who questioned Ted's memory, if not his verisimilitude), and Bill Scoggins, would that constitute a "crowd?" Or was Bowley simply either imagining things, exaggerating things, or just being loose with the language?

What we do have in terms of Benavides' actions, speaking strictly offhand, is that (1) he "waited a few minutes" before even sitting up in his car because he feared the shooter might still be there and didn't want to get shot himself; (2) he spent some time looking for shells along with the Davis girls; and (3) he left the area and went home - only a few houses away - before returning. The exact sequence of these events wasn't nailed down, so who's to say in what order or how long each of them took?

How long were each of these times? Well, I suppose they can be as short as you'd want them to be to fit a theory, but certainly not as long as someone else would want them to be to fit their theory. How do we "know" they're shorter and not longer times? Because it "wouldn't make sense" for anybody to do anything other than what makes the theory work.

Why couldn't Benevides have taken 10 minutes to make the radio call? We don't seem to have a difficulty believing that it took Bowley six. What makes Donnie Benavides so much more decisive and bold, necessarily, than Bowley?

We can all imagine what actually took place and when on that corner on that day, but that's all that we can do. None of us having been there, the only evidence we have (outside of that which can certainly be eliminated, such as estimates that the shooting took place 15 or 20 minutes after it was called in) is that which is given us by people who were there. Tom Bowley sticks by his estimate (I've spoken and met with him several times), and I've never heard anyone say that Helen Markham recanted her time estimates. Other than the radio call, those are the only bits of hard evidence we've got as to the actual time of the shooting.

(In terms of things that "make sense," wasn't it the case that Markham left just after 1:00 as a matter of course in order to reach her usual bus (one of Dale Myers' arguments, maybe?)? With only two blocks to walk and one wide, not-too-busy boulevard to cross, why would she allow herself 20 minutes to get there and thus make the 1:22 bus her "usual" bus? It is only absolutely clear that the 1:02 bus wasn't it!)

So, is it "reasonable to believe" that Benavides took nine minutes to attempt to make the radio call? I think it is ... simply because the evidence tells us that he did. Conjecture and supposition might argue, but the evidence doesn't. "Evidence" is not determined by what one considers "goofy" or not.

Of course, this in turn leads us to the question of what any of us might consider "good" evidence vs. "no" evidence, what any of us will consider "acceptable" and what we won't.

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She said 3-4 minutes = she meant a few seconds.

And you, of course, will continue to ignore the OTHER stuff Roberts said IMMEDIATELY after she said "3-4 minutes" --- i.e., that LHO was in his room just long enough to get a jacket and put it on. (Which takes, what?, 15 seconds or so.)

I'll bet you didn't even watch the Frederic Forrest re-creation of Oswald's "In His Room" actions, did you? This is the only "re-creation" like this I've ever seen done on this matter:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/in-lee-harvey-oswalds-room.html

Edited by David Von Pein
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Why couldn't Benevides have taken 10 minutes to make the radio call? We don't seem to have a difficulty believing that it took Bowley six.

Of course YOU don't have a hard time believing he took six minutes....because you erroneously think the time Tippit was shot was 1:10, right?

In reality, of course, Bowley's call came about 3.5 to 4 minutes after the shooting (with Bowley getting through to the dispatcher at 1:18 after Benavides pumped the mike for 90 seconds).

Which means Benavides got on the radio just about 2 minutes after Tippit was shot. A perfectly reasonable time estimate too. But 10 minutes is ridiculous.

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... David Belin & Co. walked the distance from Neely & Beckley to 1026 Beckley in 5 min. & 45 sec. ...

... Which we will accept at face value, uncritically.

Let's see: it's 8/10 of a mile from 1026 N. Beckley to the corner of 10th & Patton. That's roughly 4225 feet in 345 seconds, or 12.25 feet per second, or 8.3 mph. The average adult walking speed is 4.3 fps, or 2.9 mph. This would certainly make it a "fast walk" at nearly three times a "normal" walk, and in half the time as "people" have been cited as having been able to walk the same distance repeatedly over many years and time trials (i.e., 11 minutes).

But if walking they call it, then walking it is. And if "anyone" can do it in 11 minutes, certainly Belin & Co. can do it in 5.75 at the same general speed.l

Gosh. I should write a book about this. I think I'll call it "Murder Logic." I mean, it is logical, isn't it? Makes perfect sense to me ....

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I'm simply demonstrating how crap the evidence is. And any open minded person can see how utterly crap it is.

And your latest "demonstration" to try and prove the evidence was "crap" is to highlight the totally unknown horn-honking incident?

How does the honking thing prove to an "open-minded person" that all of the ballistics evidence that hangs Oswald was "crap"?

You need to read Sturdivan (again):

"While one of the pieces of physical evidence could conceivably have been faked by an expert, there is no possibility that an expert, or team of super-experts, could have fabricated the perfectly coordinated whole. This brings to mind the recurrent theme in most conspiracy books. All the officials alternate between the role of "Keystone Kops," with the inability to recognize the implications of the most elementary evidence, and "evil geniuses," with superhuman abilities to fake physical evidence that is in complete agreement with all the other faked evidence." -- Larry Sturdivan; Page 246 of "The JFK Myths"

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Duke,

You've made the exact same mistake Bob Morrow made the other day (re: the Belin walking reconstruction)....

I never said Belin walked from BECKLEY to PATTON in 5.75 minutes. I clearly said what I meant:

"David Belin & Co. walked the distance from Neely & Beckley to 1026 Beckley in 5 min. & 45 sec."

~sigh~

Edited by David Von Pein
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Duke,

You've made the exact same mistake Bob Morrow made the other day (re: the Belin walking reconstruction)....

I never said Belin walked from BECKLEY to PATTON in 5.75 minutes. I clearly said what I meant:

"David Belin & Co. walked the distance from Neely & Beckley to 1026 Beckley in 5 min. & 45 sec.

~sigh~

You're right. I noticed it probably just as I was posting it, sort of like seeing your keys in the ignition just as you slam the door.
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You're right. I noticed it probably just as I was posting it, sort of like seeing your keys in the ignition just as you slam the door.

Thanks, Duke. I appreciate your quick post to acknowledge your error. (Which is something I never saw from Mr. Morrow when he did that same thing recently.)

Edited by David Von Pein
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You said you can still get him [Oswald] there for 1:06-1:09. Show me.

Sure:

Earlene Roberts was very likely wrong about her "3 to 4 minute" estimate. Oswald, just like Frederic Forrest in the 1978 movie scene I linked to, probably was in his cubbyhole of a room for about 30 seconds, and not anywhere near three or four minutes.

David Belin & Co. walked the distance from Neely & Beckley to 1026 Beckley in 5 min. & 45 sec.

If Oswald had moved considerably faster than Belin's "walking" pace, he could have shaved some time off of Belin's re-creation time and could have likely been inside his room by about 12:57.

He's in his room for 30 seconds, then heads for Tenth Street.

He can positively get to Tenth & Patton in about 11 minutes (that's been done by Dave Perry and others in past reconstructions).

That puts him beside Tippit's patrol car at precisely 1:09. Which, as mentioned, would also have to mean that Domingo Benavides stood beside Tippit's police car picking lint out of his belly button for SEVEN MINUTES before using the police radio. And that is not a reasonable thing to believe, IMO.

My bad on the misquote of "1026 N Beckley to 10th & Patton" when clearly it was not. Indeed, based on my calculations and the distance as actually stated (0.4 miles), this dovetails precisely with "normal walking speed."

Nevertheless, we end up using conjecture and speculation, mixed with a little baseless disbelief, to arrive at what "couldn't" have happened, which in fact could've happened in total, as much as it could've happened in part.

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Here is the first page of Gladys Johnson's HSCA interview. I'm sure Dave will see the glaring problem with what she says, that is backed up by other evidence concerning the residence of LHO. Enjoy, Dave, and good luck worming your way out of this one. There are only 30,000 others:

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS

NAME: AMY GLADYS JOHNSON

Date: 10/14/77

Time: 1:30

Address: 1026 No. Beckley St. Dallas, Texas

Place: Residence.

Interview:

Mrs. JOHNSON owns and operates this rooming house. She and her husband had owned the premises for 42 years. He died three years ago - so did EARLENE ROBERTS, who resided here in addition to running the rooming house aspect for many years. Years ago, (during 1963), Mrs. JOHNSON owned and operated her restaurant - JOHNSON'S CAFE - located at 1029 Young St., "between Field and Pydras Sts., within five blocks of Dealey Plaza". Since gone out of business as evidenced by relatively new parking garage at this site.

She was serving lunch at the Cafe when "I heard the shots, then sirens. I went right on working even after the news of the shooting. I did take my usual break after lunch, arriving home about 1:30 or so. There were FBI agents all over the place. They wanted to know which rooms were LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S. When I told them no one by that name lived here, they said they knew better. They'd found my address in his pocket when they arrested him at the Texas Theatre (time discrepency not called to the lady's attention - wrong atmosphere). While they were talking to me - still in the living room, but others already…

Interviewer:

John J. Moriarty with Clarence Day

Date Transcribed November- 7, 1977

Morning Lee...

Didn't LHO rent the room as O.H.LEE so that Mrs Johnson would know him as Mr. Lee?

Mr. BALL. When is the first time you ever saw Lee Oswald?

Mrs. ROBERTS. The day he came in and rented the room--the 14th of October.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever heard of the man before?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No, and he didn't register as Oswald---he registered as O. H. Lee.

Mr. BALL. Did he sign his name?

Mrs. ROBERTS. O. H. Lee.

Mr. BALL. Did he sign his own name that way ?

Mrs. ROBERTS. O. H. Lee---that's what he was registered as

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You didn't respond to my comments - if you think Oswald killed Tippit, then which Oswald was it?

Don't be silly, Bill.

There was only one Oswald, and you know it.

Why play such games? I thought you were one CTer who rose above the "Anybody But Oswald" and "Double Oswald" silliness.

I don't believe in the "Double-Oswald" sillness, but if Oswald was arrested as the theater, who was the "Oswald' driving around Oak Cliff in Carl Mather's Plymouth while Mather was at work at Collins Radio?

JFKcountercoup: Collins Radio Connections

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Here is the first page of Gladys Johnson's HSCA interview. I'm sure Dave will see the glaring problem with what she says, that is backed up by other evidence concerning the residence of LHO. Enjoy, Dave, and good luck worming your way out of this one. There are only 30,000 others:

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS

NAME: AMY GLADYS JOHNSON

Date: 10/14/77

Time: 1:30

Address: 1026 No. Beckley St. Dallas, Texas

Place: Residence.

Interview:

Mrs. JOHNSON owns and operates this rooming house. She and her husband had owned the premises for 42 years. He died three years ago - so did EARLENE ROBERTS, who resided here in addition to running the rooming house aspect for many years. Years ago, (during 1963), Mrs. JOHNSON owned and operated her restaurant - JOHNSON'S CAFE - located at 1029 Young St., "between Field and Pydras Sts., within five blocks of Dealey Plaza". Since gone out of business as evidenced by relatively new parking garage at this site.

She was serving lunch at the Cafe when "I heard the shots, then sirens. I went right on working even after the news of the shooting. I did take my usual break after lunch, arriving home about 1:30 or so. There were FBI agents all over the place. They wanted to know which rooms were LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S. When I told them no one by that name lived here, they said they knew better. They'd found my address in his pocket when they arrested him at the Texas Theatre (time discrepency not called to the lady's attention - wrong atmosphere). While they were talking to me - still in the living room, but others already…

Interviewer:

John J. Moriarty with Clarence Day

Date Transcribed November- 7, 1977

Morning Lee...

Didn't LHO rent the room as O.H.LEE so that Mrs Johnson would know him as Mr. Lee?

Mr. BALL. When is the first time you ever saw Lee Oswald?

Mrs. ROBERTS. The day he came in and rented the room--the 14th of October.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever heard of the man before?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No, and he didn't register as Oswald---he registered as O. H. Lee.

Mr. BALL. Did he sign his name?

Mrs. ROBERTS. O. H. Lee.

Mr. BALL. Did he sign his own name that way ?

Mrs. ROBERTS. O. H. Lee---that's what he was registered as

Allegedly, David. That's what the evidence suggests. It's in Fritz's notes that Oswald alleged it was the housekeeper that made the error. Ruth and Marina claimed to have called Beckley only to be told there was no one there by the name Lee Harvey Oswald.

Gladys Johnson was also interviewed by a researcher, whose name escapes me right now, where she recounted the same series of events - that the police and FBI were at 1026 North Beckley not long after the Tippit murder, between 1:30-2:00pm. Which lends a lot more credence to the fact that Will Fritz knew about the Beckley address long before he claims Oswald actually told him about it. Long before he'd even started interrogating him. So the question is how?

Not sure why but a gut feeling tells me that Ruby somehow gets that info to Fritz thru others... Maybe Ruby thru Tippit to the DPD?

Could be why Tippit had to go. Makes more sense that the Mafia would get rid of Tippit if he was involved and Oswald had to remain the PATSY...

DJ

DJ

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