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"Tan Jacket Man" Secretively Hands Something to "Blue Coated Guy" in the Parking Lot


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Both hands are not is his pockets.

You're right. I stand corrected. Good catch.

It's virtually impossible to tell what his left hand is doing in the full-speed clip.

But in this clip, I don't see an object in his left hand. I see his fingers moving, though.

The coolest part of this clip, though, is watching the man in the background (in the raincoat/trenchcoat). Set his moves to some "Saturday Night Fever" music, and you're all set.

:)

hughescarparkfixedx2han.gif

Or "Murder on the dance floor" Maybe?.

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[quote name='Thomas Graves' date='01 December 2011 - 11:58 PM' timestamp='1322780325'

Thanks, Chris.

Now it's my turn.

I don't see anything in his hand. Do you, Chris? If so, is it the same black, rectangular-shaped thing that was in his left hand when he started turning? All I see are a white "sun highlight" on his jacket cuff plus shadows. Your posting of these admittedly two great images without comment suggests that you do think that you can see something in his hand. What? A Kleenex? A pack of cigarettes? The same thing?

"Without incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, the call stands."

--Tommy :ph34r:

P.S. Anyone recognize the "late-arriving" Latino-looking guy on the right wearing the dark sports coat and the white shirt?

bump and "Out!"

I don't see anything in TJM's left hand in the last two frames of the clip. Perhaps some think that you do or actually do see something. Never mind.

Someone else can carry the ball on this now if they want to. I feel like I've been trying to lead horses to water but they don't want to drink. Lots of people want to solve the biggest crime of the 20th Century by themselves and try to prevent others from solving it. Too many contrarian geniuses.

I'm convinced that Tan Jacket Man either gave a signal to, or got a signal from. Long Coat Man and then handed something off, in a very secretive way, to Blue Coated Cuban-Looking Man. Therefore, IN MY HUMBLE [explicative deleted; lol] OPINION, the synchronous movements of several of the other people in the clip should be analyzed for indications of conspiratorial activity. Darn straight.

Tommy

O.K. I am off to ewetoob for an eyeball and will report back any findings (like I did in the other thread)http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11517&st=60 post No. 68

over and out.

Ian

Edited by Ian Kingsbury
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I don't think there's a hand-off. When Tan Jacket Man turns and walks past the other guy, his forearm is close to his side. So like the single bullet theory, the TJM hand-off is physically impossible. Whatever he may have in his hand as he turns, he still has it as he walks away.

Well, the art of the hand-off - as I try to teach people when I hand things off to them - is to make the exchange occur between the two bodies and not in the open air. It just may be illustrated in the Hughes film.

However, the eye contact between the two men is inconclusive. Does Tan Man just turn and acknowledge Blue Coat in the way you would a person that you suddenly find in your way, and does Blue Coat return the acknowledgment, as you would to a stranger passing through? Is it only the sort of silent "Pardon me" / "Sure, buddy" duet that we perform every day in corridors and elevators?

Was Blue Coat at that spot for a purpose? Was a hit team protocol established to include hand-offs of this type between shooters and accomplices? Did Tan Man go to the rail yard to "escape in plain sight," running where the crowd did because his exit path put him in the way of the rush to the knoll and yard? Did Blue Coat expect to meet Tan Man somewhere along the escape route, and then connect with him there? Did they do the hand-off because Tan Man was prevented from reaching the rail cars or another objective behind the knoll?

It does seem like Long Coat turning away from the crowd inspires Tan Man to also turn around and head in the opposite way. Is he only taking the opportunity to evade a random detective's scrutiny?

We have to ask these questions of plausibility, since even within predictions and planning, what the assassination team expected to happen after the shooting in terms of reaction and escape opportunities might have been prevented by any number of things, despite police and intelligence cooperation. Was the rush to the knoll, the railroad bridge, and the rail yard expected? (There's even writing out there that suggests that the knoll rifle was "left loud" in order to distract the crowd from the TSBD and surrounding buildings.)

Why isn't Errol Morris looking at the films like we do here? Christian Frantz Toussay, what could you do with the Tan Man frames?

I respectfully disagree.

(The following observations and comments are based on # One) my "life experiences" (you might want to google "Tommy O'Pepper" right about now), and # Two) my having viewed 1) the cropped, slow-motion version (above), and 2) the un-cropped normal-speed version. Y'all ain't gonna understand what I'm a-talkin' about 'cheer until y'all look at both of them there clips, ya hear?)

Blue Coat man, seeing TJM turning to leave, instead of standing still or moving a bit to his right to get out of TJM's way and let him pass by unhindered, actually takes half a step towards TJM and leans towards TJM right as he's passing by. Notice how TJM quickly but gently "punches" BCM in the midsection. I think BCM has opened his jacket pocket, with his out-of-view right hand, for TJM to put the black object into. BCM looks directly at TJM as he's approaching. TJM looked at him just before that and is looking at BCM's midsection during the hand off. Interesting how TJM clenches his teeth. Intense concentration without trying to show it? You also have to take into consideration all the other things going on. Long Coat Man gives a signal to TJM, perhaps even an acknowledgement of having received a signal from TJM), and then everything starts. The black adolescent in the white shirt and tie and long light-colored raincoat (who was looking at Long Coat Man at exactly the same time as TJM was) and the black guys in front of and to the left side of TJM start moving and following TJM, and the black dude in the leather jacket and wearing a cap makes an arm motion to someone else off screen to the right to "come on". The three "suits" ("Who are these guys, anyway?") in the foreground walk in front of the camera close together in a probable attempt to shield the handoff from Robert Hughes' filming, and an until-now unseen (handsome) Latino wearing a dark sportcoat and white shirt appears and walks close to BCM. You say that there is no eye contact between TJM and BCM. Even if your are right, why would eye contact between "professionals" be necessary for a hand off? They do look at each other for a couple of seconds-- TJM looks at BCM's midsection (the handoff target area) through his whole turn, and BCM looks at TJM's face during the whole transaction. You suggest that TJM starts leaving because Long Coat Man shooed them away. Why would LCM do that? Those bystanders weren't interfering with the investigation. Do we see officials shooing bystanders away in any of the other films or photos taken that day? I think the police would have wanted all of the potential witnesses or perps to hang around a bit longer so they could be questioned/interviewed/interrogated. Hey, a helpful bystander might notice something and bring it to the attention of the investigators/searchers. The only incidences of "cops" or "persons of authority" shooing people away after the assassination ("Ya don't come up here now, ya hear? You just might get yourself shot or something") was done by unidentified Mysto-Cops (who also seemed to enjoy kicking people, pointing their guns at them, and taking their cameras. You suggest (and then dismiss) a possible conspiracy scenario which incorporates the "fact" that TJM had been looking for BCM and "found" him in the parking lot. Well, I think TJM knew in advance exactly where to "find" BCM because it was all planned out ahead of time by Professionals with a capital "P" and TJM and BCM (and LCM, etc) were also consummate Professionals as evidenced by their lack of eye contact, the almost undetectable hand off itself, etc. I would have expected nothing less of the "crew" that Angleton and Harvey, through their FBN-based mafia contacts, would employ to hit the most powerful man in the world.

And now for the $64,000 question.... If there was no hand off, then what happened to the rectangular black object that was in his hand before he "punched" BCM?

I rest my [explicative deleted] case.

--Tommy :ph34r:

bump

Edited by Thomas Graves
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I can't be sure if there's a hand-off or not - I just wanted to introduce some questions. Tan Man definitely leaves the area in response to seeing the Long Coat detective turn away from him - but out of what motive, we have to guess and evaluate from the other film events. (emphasis added by T. Graves)

Agreed.

I mentioned a few of those "other film events" which occur in the un-cropped Hughes clip in my immediately-preceding post, #48, this thread. Not to mention the Rambler station wagon with 1) its headlights on, and 2) another Long Coat Man walking by it in the background.

--Tommy :ph34r:

Edited by Thomas Graves
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I agree with you 100%. What he hands the dark-haired man looks like a small gun, or it could be a wallet, but it's certainly not a phone.

Rifle magazine?...

Good call David! Thats what popped into my head

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I can't be sure if there's a hand-off or not - I just wanted to introduce some questions. Tan Man definitely leaves the area in response to seeing the Long Coat detective turn away from him - but out of what motive, we have to guess and evaluate from the other film events. (emphasis added by T. Graves)

Agreed.

I mentioned a few of those "other film events" which occur in the (un-cropped) Hughes clip in my post #48, this thread.

(Not to mention the Rambler station wagon with 1) its headlights on, and 2) another Long Coat Man walking by it in the background.)

--Tommy :ph34r:

edited and bumped

Edited by Thomas Graves
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I don't think there's a hand-off. When Tan Jacket Man turns and walks past the other guy, his forearm is close to his side. So like the single bullet theory, the TJM hand-off is physically impossible. Whatever he may have in his hand as he turns, he still has it as he walks away.

Well, the art of the hand-off - as I try to teach people when I hand things off to them - is to make the exchange occur between the two bodies and not in the open air. It just may be illustrated in the Hughes film.

However, the eye contact between the two men is inconclusive. Does Tan Man just turn and acknowledge Blue Coat in the way you would a person that you suddenly find in your way, and does Blue Coat return the acknowledgment, as you would to a stranger passing through? Is it only the sort of silent "Pardon me" / "Sure, buddy" duet that we perform every day in corridors and elevators?

Was Blue Coat at that spot for a purpose? Was a hit team protocol established to include hand-offs of this type between shooters and accomplices? Did Tan Man go to the rail yard to "escape in plain sight," running where the crowd did because his exit path put him in the way of the rush to the knoll and yard? Did Blue Coat expect to meet Tan Man somewhere along the escape route, and then connect with him there? Did they do the hand-off because Tan Man was prevented from reaching the rail cars or another objective behind the knoll?

It does seem like Long Coat turning away from the crowd inspires Tan Man to also turn around and head in the opposite way. Is he only taking the opportunity to evade a random detective's scrutiny?

We have to ask these questions of plausibility, since even within predictions and planning, what the assassination team expected to happen after the shooting in terms of reaction and escape opportunities might have been prevented by any number of things, despite police and intelligence cooperation. Was the rush to the knoll, the railroad bridge, and the rail yard expected? (There's even writing out there that suggests that the knoll rifle was "left loud" in order to distract the crowd from the TSBD and surrounding buildings.)

Why isn't Errol Morris looking at the films like we do here? Christian Frantz Toussay, what could you do with the Tan Man frames?

I respectfully disagree.

The following observations and comments are based on my "life experiences" (you might want to google "Tommy O'Pepper" right about now), and my having viewed the cropped, slow-motion version (above), as well as the un-cropped normal-speed version.

Blue Coat man, seeing TJM turning to leave, instead of standing still or moving a bit to his right to get out of TJM's way and let him pass by unhindered, actually takes half a step towards TJM and leans towards him right as he's passing by. (That wasn't a very nice thing for a complete stranger to do in such a crowded place was it, now?) Notice how TJM quickly but gently "punches" BCM in the midsection? Was TJM just giving his Latin Lover boyfriend, into whose eyes he, unfortunately, can't stand to look, a little "love punch"? Well, I suppose it's possible, just like it's possible that TJM is one of them Pickpocket Contraries I was a-telling DVP about. But it's more reasonable to assume that BCM has just opened his jacket pocket, with his out-of-view right hand, for TJM to put the black object into. It's also interesting how TJM clenches his teeth and makes those muscles pop out on the side of his face. Mud-dah [explicative deleted] !!!, I knew I shud-da had that tooth extracted last month!!? Nah, imho it's more likely just an example of an Operative giving a potentially dangerous action his intense concentration in a crowded public place without trying to show it.

You say that there is no eye contact between TJM and BCM. Even if you're right, why would eye contact between "professionals" be necessary for a hand off? They do look at each other for a couple of seconds-- TJM stares wistfully? at BCM's midsection (the handoff target area) through his whole turn, and BCM gazes wistfully? at TJM's face during the whole transaction.

You suggest that TJM starts leaving because Long Coat Man shooed them away. Why would LCM do that? Those bystanders weren't interfering with the investigation. Do we see officials shooing bystanders away in any of the other films or photos taken that day? I think the police would have wanted all of the potential witnesses or perps to hang around a bit longer so they could be questioned/interviewed/interrogated. Hey, a helpful bystander might notice something and bring it to the attention of the investigators/searchers. The only incidences of "cops" or "persons of authority" shooing people away after the assassination ("Ya don't come up here now, ya hear? You just might get yourself kilt or something") was done by unidentified Mysto-Cops (who also seemed to enjoy kicking people, pointing their guns at them, and taking their cameras.

You suggest (and then dismiss) a possible conspiracy scenario which incorporates the "fact" that TJM had been looking for BCM and "found" him in the parking lot. Well, I think TJM knew in advance exactly where to "find" BCM because it was all planned out ahead of time by Professionals with a capital "P". TJM and BCM and LCM were also consummate pros (as evidenced by their lack of eye contact, the almost undetectable hand off itself, etc.) Hey, I would have expected nothing less than the very best of the "crew" that Angleton and Harvey, through their FBN-based mafia contacts, would employ to hit the most powerful man in the world.

You know, David, you really do have to take into consideration all the other things that are going on in this clip (un-cropped version) to make any sense out of any part of it. Kinda like playing chess, I reckon. LOL Let's see. Hmmm... Long Coat Man gives a signal to TJM (perhaps even an acknowledgement of having received a signal from TJM), and then wah-lah, all kinds of people go into action. Hmmm... The black adolescent in the white shirt and tie and long light-colored raincoat (who was looking at Long Coat Man for the signal, too) and the black guys in front of and to the left side of TJM start moving and following TJM, and the black dude in the leather jacket and wearing a cap makes an arm motion to someone else off screen to the right to "come on". The three "suits" ("Who are these guys, anyway?") in the foreground walk in front of the camera close together in a probable attempt to shield the handoff from Robert Hughes' filming, and an until-now unseen Latino wearing a dark sport coat and white shirt appears and walks close to BCM. That's "interesting," isn't it.

And now for the $64,000 question.... If there was no hand off, then what happened to the rectangular black object that was in his hand before he "punched" BCM? Must have dropped it on the ground?

I rest my [explicative deleted] case.

Thanks!

--Tommy :ph34r:

bump

edited and bumped --Tommy :ph34r:

Edited by Thomas Graves
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I don't think there's a hand-off. When Tan Jacket Man turns and walks past the other guy, his forearm is close to his side. So like the single bullet theory, the TJM hand-off is physically impossible. Whatever he may have in his hand as he turns, he still has it as he walks away.

Well, the art of the hand-off - as I try to teach people when I hand things off to them - is to make the exchange occur between the two bodies and not in the open air. It just may be illustrated in the Hughes film.

However, the eye contact between the two men is inconclusive. Does Tan Man just turn and acknowledge Blue Coat in the way you would a person that you suddenly find in your way, and does Blue Coat return the acknowledgment, as you would to a stranger passing through? Is it only the sort of silent "Pardon me" / "Sure, buddy" duet that we perform every day in corridors and elevators?

Was Blue Coat at that spot for a purpose? Was a hit team protocol established to include hand-offs of this type between shooters and accomplices? Did Tan Man go to the rail yard to "escape in plain sight," running where the crowd did because his exit path put him in the way of the rush to the knoll and yard? Did Blue Coat expect to meet Tan Man somewhere along the escape route, and then connect with him there? Did they do the hand-off because Tan Man was prevented from reaching the rail cars or another objective behind the knoll?

It does seem like Long Coat turning away from the crowd inspires Tan Man to also turn around and head in the opposite way. Is he only taking the opportunity to evade a random detective's scrutiny?

We have to ask these questions of plausibility, since even within predictions and planning, what the assassination team expected to happen after the shooting in terms of reaction and escape opportunities might have been prevented by any number of things, despite police and intelligence cooperation. Was the rush to the knoll, the railroad bridge, and the rail yard expected? (There's even writing out there that suggests that the knoll rifle was "left loud" in order to distract the crowd from the TSBD and surrounding buildings.)

Why isn't Errol Morris looking at the films like we do here? Christian Frantz Toussay, what could you do with the Tan Man frames?

I respectfully disagree.

Having viewed the cropped, slow-motion version (above), as well as the un-cropped normal-speed version, I think that:

Blue Coat man, seeing TJM turning to leave, instead of standing still or moving a bit to his right to get out of TJM's way and let him pass by unhindered, actually takes half a step towards TJM and leans towards him right as he's passing by. That wasn't a very nice thing for a complete stranger to do in such a crowded place was it. ) Notice how TJM quickly but gently "punches" BCM in the midsection? Was TJM just giving his Latin Lover, into whose eyes he, unfortunately, can't stand to look, a little "love punch"? Well, I suppose it's possible, just like it's possible that TJM is one of them Pickpocket Contraries I was a-telling DVP about. But it's more reasonable to assume that BCM has just opened his jacket pocket, with his out-of-view right hand, for TJM to put the black object into. It's also interesting how TJM clenches his teeth and makes those muscles pop out on the side of his face. Darn!, I knew I should have had that tooth extracted last month! Nah, imho it's more likely just an example of an Operative giving a potentially dangerous action his intense concentration in a crowded public place.

You say that there is no eye contact between TJM and BCM. But would eye contact between true "Professionals" be necessary or even desirable during such a highly-visible hand off? I would think that Operatives in this situation would try to avoid direct eye contact as much as possible. Actually, they do look at each other for a couple of seconds-- TJM stares at BCM's midsection (the handoff target area) through his whole turn, while BCM gazes wistfully? at TJM's face.

You suggest that TJM starts leaving because Long Coat Man shooed them away. Why would LCM do that? Those bystanders weren't interfering with the investigation. Do we see officials shooing bystanders away in any of the other films or photos taken that day? I think the police would have wanted all of the potential witnesses or perps to hang around a bit longer so they could be questioned/interviewed/interrogated. Hey, a helpful bystander might notice something and bring it to the attention of the investigators/searchers. The only incidences of "cops" or "persons of authority" shooing people away after the assassination ("Ya don't come up here now, ya hear? You just might get yourself kilt or something") was done by unidentified Mysto-Cops (who also seemed to enjoy kicking people, pointing their guns at them, and taking their cameras.

You suggest (and then dismiss) a possible conspiracy scenario which incorporates the "fact" that TJM had been looking for BCM and "found" him in the parking lot. Well, I think TJM knew in advance exactly where to "find" BCM because it was all planned out ahead of time by Professionals with a capital "P". TJM and BCM and LCM were also consummate pros (as evidenced by their lack of eye contact, the almost undetectable hand off itself, etc.) Hey, I would have expected nothing less than the very best of the "crew" that Angleton and Harvey, through their FBN-based mafia contacts, would employ to hit the most powerful man in the world.

You know, David, you really do have to take into consideration all the other things that are going on in this clip (un-cropped version) to make any sense out of any part of it. Kinda like playing chess, I reckon. Let's see. Hmmm... Long Coat Man gives a signal to TJM (perhaps even a signal acknowledging that he has received a signal from TJM), and then all kinds of people go into action. Hmmm...

Take, for example, the black adolescent in the white shirt and tie and long light-colored raincoat (who was looking at Long Coat Man for the signal, too) and the black guys in front of and to the left side of TJM start moving and following TJM, and the black dude in the leather jacket and wearing a cap makes an arm motion to someone else off screen to the right to "come on". The three "suits" ("Who are these guys, anyway?") in the foreground walk close together in a probable attempt to shield the hand off from Robert Hughes' camera. Meanwhile,an unseen-until-now Latino wearing a dark sport coat and white shirt appears and walks up close to BCM....

And now for the $64,000 question.... If there was no hand off, then what happened to the rectangular black object that was in TJM's left hand before he "punched" BCM in the stomach?

Thanks!

---Tommy :ph34r:

bump

edited and bumped --Tommy :ph34r:

bumpkin

Edited by Thomas Graves
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I don't think there's a hand-off. When Tan Jacket Man turns and walks past the other guy, his forearm is close to his side. So like the single bullet theory, the TJM hand-off is physically impossible. Whatever he may have in his hand as he turns, he still has it as he walks away.

Well, the art of the hand-off - as I try to teach people when I hand things off to them - is to make the exchange occur between the two bodies and not in the open air. It just may be illustrated in the Hughes film.

However, the eye contact between the two men is inconclusive. Does Tan Man just turn and acknowledge Blue Coat in the way you would a person that you suddenly find in your way, and does Blue Coat return the acknowledgment, as you would to a stranger passing through? Is it only the sort of silent "Pardon me" / "Sure, buddy" duet that we perform every day in corridors and elevators?

Was Blue Coat at that spot for a purpose? Was a hit team protocol established to include hand-offs of this type between shooters and accomplices? Did Tan Man go to the rail yard to "escape in plain sight," running where the crowd did because his exit path put him in the way of the rush to the knoll and yard? Did Blue Coat expect to meet Tan Man somewhere along the escape route, and then connect with him there? Did they do the hand-off because Tan Man was prevented from reaching the rail cars or another objective behind the knoll?

It does seem like Long Coat turning away from the crowd inspires Tan Man to also turn around and head in the opposite way. Is he only taking the opportunity to evade a random detective's scrutiny?

We have to ask these questions of plausibility, since even within predictions and planning, what the assassination team expected to happen after the shooting in terms of reaction and escape opportunities might have been prevented by any number of things, despite police and intelligence cooperation. Was the rush to the knoll, the railroad bridge, and the rail yard expected? (There's even writing out there that suggests that the knoll rifle was "left loud" in order to distract the crowd from the TSBD and surrounding buildings.)

Why isn't Errol Morris looking at the films like we do here? Christian Frantz Toussay, what could you do with the Tan Man frames?

I respectfully disagree.

Having viewed the cropped, slow-motion version (above), as well as the un-cropped normal-speed version, I think that:

Blue Coat man, seeing TJM turning to leave, instead of standing still or moving a bit to his right to get out of TJM's way and let him pass by unhindered, actually takes half a step towards TJM and leans towards him right as he's passing by. That wasn't a very nice thing for a complete stranger to do in such a crowded place was it. ) Notice how TJM quickly but gently "punches" BCM in the midsection? Was TJM just giving his Latin Lover, into whose eyes he, unfortunately, can't stand to look, a little "love punch"? Well, I suppose it's possible, just like it's possible that TJM is one of them Pickpocket Contraries I was a-telling DVP about. But it's more reasonable to assume that BCM has just opened his jacket pocket, with his out-of-view right hand, for TJM to put the black object into. It's also interesting how TJM clenches his teeth and makes those muscles pop out on the side of his face. Darn!, I knew I should have had that tooth extracted last month! Nah, imho it's more likely just an example of an Operative giving a potentially dangerous action his intense concentration in a crowded public place.

You say that there is no eye contact between TJM and BCM. But would eye contact between true "Professionals" be necessary or even desirable during such a highly-visible hand off? I would think that Operatives in this situation would try to avoid direct eye contact as much as possible. Actually, they do look at each other for a couple of seconds-- TJM stares at BCM's midsection (the handoff target area) through his whole turn, while BCM gazes wistfully? at TJM's face.

You suggest that TJM starts leaving because Long Coat Man shooed them away. Why would LCM do that? Those bystanders weren't interfering with the investigation. Do we see officials shooing bystanders away in any of the other films or photos taken that day? I think the police would have wanted all of the potential witnesses or perps to hang around a bit longer so they could be questioned/interviewed/interrogated. Hey, a helpful bystander might notice something and bring it to the attention of the investigators/searchers. The only incidences of "cops" or "persons of authority" shooing people away after the assassination ("Ya don't come up here now, ya hear? You just might get yourself kilt or something") was done by unidentified Mysto-Cops (who also seemed to enjoy kicking people, pointing their guns at them, and taking their cameras.

You suggest (and then dismiss) a possible conspiracy scenario which incorporates the "fact" that TJM had been looking for BCM and "found" him in the parking lot. Well, I think TJM knew in advance exactly where to "find" BCM because it was all planned out ahead of time by Professionals with a capital "P". TJM and BCM and LCM were also consummate pros (as evidenced by their lack of eye contact, the almost undetectable hand off itself, etc.) Hey, I would have expected nothing less than the very best of the "crew" that Angleton and Harvey, through their FBN-based mafia contacts, would employ to hit the most powerful man in the world.

You know, David, you really do have to take into consideration all the other things that are going on in this clip (un-cropped version) to make any sense out of any part of it. Kinda like playing chess, I reckon. Let's see. Hmmm... Long Coat Man gives a signal to TJM (perhaps even a signal acknowledging that he has received a signal from TJM), and then all kinds of people go into action.

Hmmm...

Take, for example, the black adolescent in the white shirt and tie and long light-colored raincoat (who was looking at Long Coat Man for the signal, too) and the black guys in front of and to the left side of TJM start moving and following TJM, and the black dude in the leather jacket and wearing a cap makes an arm motion to someone else off screen to the right to "come on". The three "suits" ("Who are these guys, anyway?") in the foreground walk close together in a probable attempt to shield the hand off from Robert Hughes' camera. Meanwhile,an unseen-until-now Latino wearing a dark sport coat and white shirt appears and walks up close to BCM....

And now for the $64,000 question.... If there was no hand off, then what happened to the rectangular black object that was in TJM's left hand before he "punched" BCM in the stomach?

Thanks!

---Tommy :ph34r:

bump

edited and bumped --Tommy :ph34r:

bumpkin

"Well, everyman's gotta believe in something. I believe I'll go have a cigarette..." (attributed to Tommy O'Pepper, 1993)

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Tommy - When I look at my original argument post, nested at the center of your post just above, I suspect you think that I wrote the header in bold. That was Ron Ecker, and I followed his quote with my own respectful argument on hand-offs, and then some words on the mixed interpretive signals I get from the Hughes frames.

I would love for there to have been a a filmed hand-off. Wait - let me do that in Bob Kennedy's voice -

"Christ, nobody more that me would love to have some evidence in this case. But gentlemen, we just don't have it yet."

Graves: Blue Coat man, seeing TJM turning to leave, instead of standing still or moving a bit to his right to get out of TJM's way and let him pass by unhindered, actually takes half a step towards TJM and leans towards him right as he's passing by.

I agree. I've leaned in on people and stepped toward them every day to pass them in tight places - but never with so much available distance between us.

Andrews: However, the eye contact between the two men is inconclusive.

I didn't say that there was no eye contact. I offered an alternate interpretation.

Graves: You suggest that TJM starts leaving because Long Coat Man shooed them away. Why would LCM do that? Those bystanders weren't interfering with the investigation.

I don't think LCM shooed them away. LCM turned away first, and TJM immediately turned away to leave. TJM may have felt that was his opportunity to slink off, seeing that he could not cross over to the rail cars or exit the yard in that direction. So he moved as soon as a cop had stopped looking his way. Or it may have been innocent - monkey-see, monkey-do. "Nothing more to see here."

Graves: The three "suits" ("Who are these guys, anyway?") in the foreground walk in front of the camera close together in a probable attempt to shield the handoff from Robert Hughes' filming,

These guys look like the ultimate civilians to me, "a buncha straights" in Lenny Bruce parlance. I doubt they care they're crossing the path of "that guy filming."

I admit I haven't yet worked out what you say about the African-American guys behind TJM. I've been working from this YouTube version. Is there one in better color and resolution to look at?

I still would like to see what Christian Frantz Toussay could make of the "object" in Tan Man's hand, but I'm too shy to ask the man. He seems to have been through a lot in these pages.

Thanks for adding me as a friend, Tom.

Postscript: The Three Rules of Hand-off. 1) Always keep the object against your body and concealed in your hand. Never in your pocket, never in the open air. 2) The hander of the object should merely put forth the object to be grabbed; the handee should do the grabbing. Anyone watching is likely to be focused on the hander, precedence having primacy in the mind. 3) As said, the exchange must take place while visually obstructed by the two bodies, and never in the open.

You don't want to know how I learned this.

So far, though, the Hughes rail yard clip only satisfies requirement 3. If requirement 2 is satisfied but we can't see it - they're good. The momentary failure of requirement one - the glimpse of a possible object in TJM's hand - is the best clue for analysis.

Edited by David Andrews
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Tommy - When I look at my original argument post, nested at the center of your post just above, I suspect you think I wrote the header in bold. That was Ron Ecker, and I followed his quote with my own respectful argument on hand-offs, and then some words on the mixed interpretive signals I get from the Hughes frames.

I would love for there to have been a a filmed hand-off. Wait - let me do that in Bob Kennedy's voice -

"Christ, nobody more that me would love to have some evidence in this case. But gentlemen, we just don't have it yet."

Graves: Blue Coat man, seeing TJM turning to leave, instead of standing still or moving a bit to his right to get out of TJM's way and let him pass by unhindered, actually takes half a step towards TJM and leans towards him right as he's passing by.

I agree. I've leaned in on people and stepped toward them every day to pass them in tight places - but never with so much available distance between us.

Andrews: However, the eye contact between the two men is inconclusive.

I didn't say that there was no eye contact. I offered an alternate interpretation.

Graves: You suggest that TJM starts leaving because Long Coat Man shooed them away. Why would LCM do that? Those bystanders weren't interfering with the investigation.

I don't think LCM shooed them away. LCM turned away first, and TJM immediately turned away to leave. TJM may have felt that was his opportunity to slink off, seeing that he could not cross over to the rail cars or exit the yard in that direction. So he moved as soon as a cop had stopped looking his way. Or it may have been innocent - monkey-see, monkey-do. "Nothing more to see here."

Graves: The three "suits" ("Who are these guys, anyway?") in the foreground walk in front of the camera close together in a probable attempt to shield the handoff from Robert Hughes' filming,

These guys look like the ultimate civilians to me, "a buncha straights" in Lenny Bruce parlance. I doubt they care they're likely to cross the path of that guy filming.

I admit I haven't yet worked out what you say about the African-American guys behind TJM. I've been working from this YouTube version. Is there one in better color and resolution to look at?

I still would like to see what Christian Frantz Toussay could make of the "object" in Tan Man's hand, but I'm too shy to ask the man. He seems to have been through a lot in these pages.

Thanks for adding me as a friend, Tom.

Postscript: The Three Rules of Hand-off. 1) Always keep the object against your body and concealed in your hand, and never in your pocket. 2) The hander of the object should merely put forth the object to be grabbed; the handee should do the grabbing. Anyone watching is likely to be focused on the hander, precedence having primacy in the mind. 3) As said, exchange must take place between the obstruction of the two bodies, and never in the open air. You don't want to know how I learned this.

Hi David,

Thank's for the reasoned and polite response. You're right, I did think you'd written what, it turns out, Ron Ecker had already posted. Sorry about that.

As regards a better-quality clip showing the black guys' movements as well as the "late" arrival from the right of a well-dressed Latino, check out the "Hughes Parking-Lot Man in Bell Film?" thread on the "JFK Assassination Photographic & Film Evidence & Discussion and Debate" part of the JFK Assassination Forum.

There's lots of good photographic stuff on Tan Coat Man and the goings-on in the parking lot there.

--Tommy :ph34r:

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Thomas,

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/3-3.png

It appears that the object sticking out from his left hand (red arrow) is in the shape of a full or half hook.

It looks like an umbrella handle to me.

His left hand is clinched, with knuckle's pointing out toward the cameraman.

The black area I pointed to earlier could be part of an umbrella.

Very interesting!!!!

chris

Chris,

You know, someone on the JFK Assassination Forum has posted a clip from the Bell film showing someone who looks a lot like Tan Jacket Man walking quickly up the grassy knoll towards the parking lot after the assassination carrying what might very well be an umbrella in his left hand. It was posted by Sean Murphy and it's on the "Hughes Parking-Lot Man in Bell Film?" thread. Have you seen it yet? I suppose I could post the link on this thread again, but what the heck, I don't think I will because I might as well as encourage everyone to either 1) read my earlier posts on this thread, or 2) go to JFK Assassination Forum and find Sean's post yourselves. You might even find something I haven't seen yet there!...

--Tommy :ph34r:

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Thomas,

The footage from Sean' s thread shows someone on the South side of Elm St, up towards Main St, on the grass.

chris

OK, Chris. MY BAD. He wdidn't walk up the grassy right then. But he does look likeTJM because you know he is the right size and the right age and he is a white guy wearing the same color and style of jacket as TJM and he is walking faster than the people around him and he isn't really with anyone but he is loosely surrounded by a bunch of guys in suits and he appears to be carrying an umbrella in his left hand (and, you know, you did think you'd detected the curved end of an umbrella in TJM's left hand in the parking lot)... So now I'm starting to wonder.... Hmmmm... If he WAS an assassin or an assassin's helper up there in the "sniper's lair" or over in that old truck in the background... well, I'm wondering if he could possibly have walked, with his umbrella and all, a "circuitous route" from the TSBD or where-ever to the parking lot?? And, come to think of it, the TJM in the parking lot had to enter the parking lot from somewhere else, didn't he? Unless, of course, he was one of the shooters behind the picket fence. Hmmmmmm..

Nahh. Probably just a bunch of coincidences.

--Tommy :ph34r:

Edited by Thomas Graves
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