Greg Parker Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Thomas, The footage from Sean' s thread shows someone on the South side of Elm St, up towards Main St, on the grass. chris OK, Chris. MY BAD. He wdidn't walk up the grassy right then. But he does look likeTJM because you know he is the right size and the right age and he is a white guy wearing the same color and style of jacket as TJM and he is walking faster than the people around him and he isn't really with anyone but he is loosely surrounded by a bunch of guys in suits and he appears to be carrying an umbrella in his left hand (and, you know, you did think you'd detected the curved end of an umbrella in TJM's left hand in the parking lot)... So now I'm starting to wonder.... Hmmmm... If he WAS an assassin or an assassin's helper up there in the "sniper's lair" or over in that old truck in the background... well, I'm wondering if he could possibly have walked, with his umbrella and all, a "circuitous route" from the TSBD or where-ever to the parking lot?? And, come to think of it, the TJM in the parking lot had to enter the parking lot from somewhere else, didn't he? Unless, of course, he was one of the shooters behind the picket fence. Hmmmmmm.. Nahh. Probably just a bunch of coincidences. --Tommy I'm leery of disagreeing with Sean because, well, he's such a clever bugger whose opinions and insights usually end up being right on the money... but to these aging, though still glasses-free eyes, the guy in the Bell footage looks shorter and has a fuller head of hair. I can't be certain the jacket is an exact match, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 4, 2011 Author Share Posted December 4, 2011 (edited) Thomas, The footage from Sean' s thread shows someone on the South side of Elm St, up towards Main St, on the grass. chris OK, Chris. MY BAD. He didn't walk up the grassy right then. But he does look likeTJM because you know he is the right size and the right age and he is a white guy wearing the same color and style of jacket as TJM and he is walking faster than the people around him and he isn't really with anyone but he is loosely surrounded by a bunch of guys in suits and he appears to be carrying an umbrella in his left hand (and, you know, you did think you'd detected the curved end of an umbrella in TJM's left hand in the parking lot)... So now I'm starting to wonder.... Hmmmm... If he WAS an assassin or an assassin's helper up there in the "sniper's lair" or over in that old truck in the background... well, I'm wondering if he could possibly have walked, with his umbrella and all, a "circuitous route" from the TSBD or where-ever to the parking lot?? And, come to think of it, the TJM in the parking lot had to enter the parking lot from somewhere else, didn't he? Unless, of course, he was one of the shooters behind the picket fence. Nahh. Probably just a bunch of coincidences. --Tommy I'm leery of disagreeing with Sean because, well, he's such a clever bugger whose opinions and insights usually end up being right on the money... but to these aging, though still glasses-free eyes, the guy in the Bell footage looks shorter and has a fuller head of hair. I can't be certain the jacket is an exact match, either. Hey Greg! Thanks for the "bump" (I was needing it.) and the input, too. Maybe we can find some more photos or footage of the little weasel. I wonder if the guy walking across the grass shows up in a Cancellare or a Murray? --Tommy Edited December 4, 2011 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 4, 2011 Author Share Posted December 4, 2011 (edited) Thomas, The footage from Sean' s thread shows someone on the South side of Elm St, up towards Main St, on the grass. chris OK, Chris. MY BAD. He didn't walk up the grassy right then. But he does look likeTJM because you know he is the right size and the right age and he is a white guy wearing the same color and style of jacket as TJM and he is walking faster than the people around him and he isn't really with anyone but he is loosely surrounded by a bunch of guys in suits and he appears to be carrying an umbrella in his left hand (and, you know, you did think you'd detected the curved end of an umbrella in TJM's left hand in the parking lot)... So now I'm starting to wonder.... Hmmmm... If he WAS an assassin or an assassin's helper up there in the "sniper's lair" or over in that old truck in the background... well, I'm wondering if he could possibly have walked, with his umbrella and all, a "circuitous route" from the TSBD or where-ever to the parking lot?? And, come to think of it, the TJM in the parking lot had to enter the parking lot from somewhere else, didn't he? Unless, of course, he was one of the shooters behind the picket fence. Hmmmmmm.. I'm beginning to think that maybe this whole case is just a bunch of coincidences! --Tommy I'm leery of disagreeing with Sean because, well, he's such a clever bugger whose opinions and insights usually end up being right on the money... but to these aging, though still glasses-free eyes, the guy in the Bell footage looks shorter and has a fuller head of hair. I can't be certain the jacket is an exact match, either. Interesting observation about his relatively short stature, Greg. I have the same feeling about the Tan Jacketed guy photographed from behind standing in the crowd on the Houston Street(?) curb as the limo goes by. To me he looks shorter that the TJM dude in the parking lot... --Tommy Edited December 4, 2011 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 4, 2011 Author Share Posted December 4, 2011 I don't think there's a hand-off. When Tan Jacket Man turns and walks past the other guy, his forearm is close to his side. So like the single bullet theory, the TJM hand-off is physically impossible. Whatever he may have in his hand as he turns, he still has it as he walks away. --Ron Ecker (emphasis added by T. Graves) Well, the art of the hand-off - as I try to teach people when I hand things off to them - is to make the exchange occur between the two bodies and not in the open air. It just may be illustrated in the Hughes film. However, the eye contact between the two men is inconclusive. Does Tan Man just turn and acknowledge Blue Coat in the way you would a person that you suddenly find in your way, and does Blue Coat return the acknowledgment, as you would to a stranger passing through? Is it only the sort of silent "Pardon me" / "Sure, buddy" duet that we perform every day in corridors and elevators? Was Blue Coat at that spot for a purpose? Was a hit team protocol established to include hand-offs of this type between shooters and accomplices? Did Tan Man go to the rail yard to "escape in plain sight," running where the crowd did because his exit path put him in the way of the rush to the knoll and yard? Did Blue Coat expect to meet Tan Man somewhere along the escape route, and then connect with him there? Did they do the hand-off because Tan Man was prevented from reaching the rail cars or another objective behind the knoll? It does seem like Long Coat turning away from the crowd inspires Tan Man to also turn around and head in the opposite way. Is he only taking the opportunity to evade a random detective's scrutiny? We have to ask these questions of plausibility, since even within predictions and planning, what the assassination team expected to happen after the shooting in terms of reaction and escape opportunities might have been prevented by any number of things, despite police and intelligence cooperation. Was the rush to the knoll, the railroad bridge, and the rail yard expected? (There's even writing out there that suggests that the knoll rifle was "left loud" in order to distract the crowd from the TSBD and surrounding buildings.) Why isn't Errol Morris looking at the films like we do here? Christian Frantz Toussay, what could you do with the Tan Man frames? (emphasis added by T. Graves) Yes, David, it would be nice if Christian would weigh in on this. --Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 5, 2011 Author Share Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) I don't think there's a hand-off. When Tan Jacket Man turns and walks past the other guy, his forearm is close to his side. So like the single bullet theory, the TJM hand-off is physically impossible. Whatever he may have in his hand as he turns, he still has it as he walks away. --Ron Ecker (emphasis added by T. Graves) Well, the art of the hand-off - as I try to teach people when I hand things off to them - is to make the exchange occur between the two bodies and not in the open air. It just may be illustrated in the Hughes film. However, the eye contact between the two men is inconclusive. Does Tan Man just turn and acknowledge Blue Coat in the way you would a person that you suddenly find in your way, and does Blue Coat return the acknowledgment, as you would to a stranger passing through? Is it only the sort of silent "Pardon me" / "Sure, buddy" duet that we perform every day in corridors and elevators? Was Blue Coat at that spot for a purpose? Was a hit team protocol established to include hand-offs of this type between shooters and accomplices? Did Tan Man go to the rail yard to "escape in plain sight," running where the crowd did because his exit path put him in the way of the rush to the knoll and yard? Did Blue Coat expect to meet Tan Man somewhere along the escape route, and then connect with him there? Did they do the hand-off because Tan Man was prevented from reaching the rail cars or another objective behind the knoll? It does seem like Long Coat turning away from the crowd inspires Tan Man to also turn around and head in the opposite way. Is he only taking the opportunity to evade a random detective's scrutiny? We have to ask these questions of plausibility, since even within predictions and planning, what the assassination team expected to happen after the shooting in terms of reaction and escape opportunities might have been prevented by any number of things, despite police and intelligence cooperation. Was the rush to the knoll, the railroad bridge, and the rail yard expected? (There's even writing out there that suggests that the knoll rifle was "left loud" in order to distract the crowd from the TSBD and surrounding buildings.) Why isn't Errol Morris looking at the films like we do here? Christian Frantz Toussay, what could you do with the Tan Man frames? (emphasis added by T. Graves) Yes, David, it would be nice if Christian would weigh in on this. --Tommy Big Frame-by-frame Breakdown of Tan Jacket Man In The Parking Lot clip (plus the film clip itself). Great work by Greda Dunkel at the JFK Assassination Forum! http://www.iimmgg.com/image/fc9a54c65c1b3241a5de760d5ce1a9de --Tommy Edited December 5, 2011 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kingsbury Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 I don't think there's a hand-off. When Tan Jacket Man turns and walks past the other guy, his forearm is close to his side. So like the single bullet theory, the TJM hand-off is physically impossible. Whatever he may have in his hand as he turns, he still has it as he walks away. --Ron Ecker (emphasis added by T. Graves) Well, the art of the hand-off - as I try to teach people when I hand things off to them - is to make the exchange occur between the two bodies and not in the open air. It just may be illustrated in the Hughes film. However, the eye contact between the two men is inconclusive. Does Tan Man just turn and acknowledge Blue Coat in the way you would a person that you suddenly find in your way, and does Blue Coat return the acknowledgment, as you would to a stranger passing through? Is it only the sort of silent "Pardon me" / "Sure, buddy" duet that we perform every day in corridors and elevators? Was Blue Coat at that spot for a purpose? Was a hit team protocol established to include hand-offs of this type between shooters and accomplices? Did Tan Man go to the rail yard to "escape in plain sight," running where the crowd did because his exit path put him in the way of the rush to the knoll and yard? Did Blue Coat expect to meet Tan Man somewhere along the escape route, and then connect with him there? Did they do the hand-off because Tan Man was prevented from reaching the rail cars or another objective behind the knoll? It does seem like Long Coat turning away from the crowd inspires Tan Man to also turn around and head in the opposite way. Is he only taking the opportunity to evade a random detective's scrutiny? We have to ask these questions of plausibility, since even within predictions and planning, what the assassination team expected to happen after the shooting in terms of reaction and escape opportunities might have been prevented by any number of things, despite police and intelligence cooperation. Was the rush to the knoll, the railroad bridge, and the rail yard expected? (There's even writing out there that suggests that the knoll rifle was "left loud" in order to distract the crowd from the TSBD and surrounding buildings.) Why isn't Errol Morris looking at the films like we do here? Christian Frantz Toussay, what could you do with the Tan Man frames? (emphasis added by T. Graves) Yes, David, it would be nice if Christian would weigh in on this. --Tommy Big Frame-by-frame Breakdown of Tan Jacket Man In The Parking Lot clip (plus the film clip itself). Great work by Greda Dunkel at the JFK Assassination Forum! http://www.iimmgg.com/image/fc9a54c65c1b3241a5de760d5ce1a9de --Tommy Prior to the Long coat/ TJM/Signal, the IBM looking guy with glasses seems to be in more of a hurry to take his 2 friends In front of TJM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 5, 2011 Author Share Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) I don't think there's a hand-off. When Tan Jacket Man turns and walks past the other guy, his forearm is close to his side. So like the single bullet theory, the TJM hand-off is physically impossible. Whatever he may have in his hand as he turns, he still has it as he walks away. --Ron Ecker (emphasis added by T. Graves) Well, the art of the hand-off - as I try to teach people when I hand things off to them - is to make the exchange occur between the two bodies and not in the open air. It just may be illustrated in the Hughes film. However, the eye contact between the two men is inconclusive. Does Tan Man just turn and acknowledge Blue Coat in the way you would a person that you suddenly find in your way, and does Blue Coat return the acknowledgment, as you would to a stranger passing through? Is it only the sort of silent "Pardon me" / "Sure, buddy" duet that we perform every day in corridors and elevators? Was Blue Coat at that spot for a purpose? Was a hit team protocol established to include hand-offs of this type between shooters and accomplices? Did Tan Man go to the rail yard to "escape in plain sight," running where the crowd did because his exit path put him in the way of the rush to the knoll and yard? Did Blue Coat expect to meet Tan Man somewhere along the escape route, and then connect with him there? Did they do the hand-off because Tan Man was prevented from reaching the rail cars or another objective behind the knoll? It does seem like Long Coat turning away from the crowd inspires Tan Man to also turn around and head in the opposite way. Is he only taking the opportunity to evade a random detective's scrutiny? We have to ask these questions of plausibility, since even within predictions and planning, what the assassination team expected to happen after the shooting in terms of reaction and escape opportunities might have been prevented by any number of things, despite police and intelligence cooperation. Was the rush to the knoll, the railroad bridge, and the rail yard expected? (There's even writing out there that suggests that the knoll rifle was "left loud" in order to distract the crowd from the TSBD and surrounding buildings.) Why isn't Errol Morris looking at the films like we do here? Christian Frantz Toussay, what could you do with the Tan Man frames? (emphasis added by T. Graves) Yes, David, it would be nice if Christian would weigh in on this. --Tommy Big Frame-by-frame Breakdown of Tan Jacket Man In The Parking Lot clip (plus the film clip itself). Great work by Greda Dunkel at the JFK Assassination Forum! http://www.iimmgg.com/image/fc9a54c65c1b3241a5de760d5ce1a9de --Tommy Prior to the Long coat/ TJM/Signal, the IBM looking guy with glasses seems to be in more of a hurry to take his 2 friends in front of TJM Nice catch, Ian. But we've got to be careful. Members who think it was just a coincidence will start thinking that we're Conspiracy Theory Nuts or something. LOL --Tommy Edited December 5, 2011 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 5, 2011 Author Share Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) [...] Why isn't Errol Morris looking at the films like we do here? Christian Frantz Toussay, what could you do with the Tan Man frames? (emphasis added by T. Graves) Yes, David, it would be nice if Christian would weigh in on this. --Tommy Big Frame-by-frame Breakdown of Tan Jacket Man In The Parking Lot clip (plus the film clip itself). Great work by Greda Dunkel at the JFK Assassination Forum! http://www.iimmgg.com/image/fc9a54c65c1b3241a5de760d5ce1a9de --Tommy [...] edited and bumped Edited December 5, 2011 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen Collins Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 I'm not good at car types, but in TJM where you can see the background better, there are 2 cops and a man with a long coat. They seem to be standing near a green rambler. Is that car a rambler? Maybe TJM has his car keys in hand and must wait till it clears. Does anyone else see it that way? Kathy C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 5, 2011 Author Share Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) I'm not good at car types, but in TJM where you can see the background better, there are 2 cops and a man with a long coat. They seem to be standing near a green rambler. Is that car a rambler? Maybe TJM has his car keys in hand and must wait till it clears. Does anyone else see it that way? Kathy C Kathy, I'm not sure what kind of car the green one is, but I know it's not a Rambler because it has those fins sticking out to the side. I do know that on the right side of the photo in the background there is a Rambler station wagon with its four headlights on and a Long Coated Man passing by its driver's side. --Tommy Edited December 5, 2011 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 I don't think there's a hand-off. When Tan Jacket Man turns and walks past the other guy, his forearm is close to his side. So like the single bullet theory, the TJM hand-off is physically impossible. Whatever he may have in his hand as he turns, he still has it as he walks away. --Ron Ecker (emphasis added by T. Graves) Well, the art of the hand-off - as I try to teach people when I hand things off to them - is to make the exchange occur between the two bodies and not in the open air. It just may be illustrated in the Hughes film. However, the eye contact between the two men is inconclusive. Does Tan Man just turn and acknowledge Blue Coat in the way you would a person that you suddenly find in your way, and does Blue Coat return the acknowledgment, as you would to a stranger passing through? Is it only the sort of silent "Pardon me" / "Sure, buddy" duet that we perform every day in corridors and elevators? Was Blue Coat at that spot for a purpose? Was a hit team protocol established to include hand-offs of this type between shooters and accomplices? Did Tan Man go to the rail yard to "escape in plain sight," running where the crowd did because his exit path put him in the way of the rush to the knoll and yard? Did Blue Coat expect to meet Tan Man somewhere along the escape route, and then connect with him there? Did they do the hand-off because Tan Man was prevented from reaching the rail cars or another objective behind the knoll? It does seem like Long Coat turning away from the crowd inspires Tan Man to also turn around and head in the opposite way. Is he only taking the opportunity to evade a random detective's scrutiny? We have to ask these questions of plausibility, since even within predictions and planning, what the assassination team expected to happen after the shooting in terms of reaction and escape opportunities might have been prevented by any number of things, despite police and intelligence cooperation. Was the rush to the knoll, the railroad bridge, and the rail yard expected? (There's even writing out there that suggests that the knoll rifle was "left loud" in order to distract the crowd from the TSBD and surrounding buildings.) Why isn't Errol Morris looking at the films like we do here? Christian Frantz Toussay, what could you do with the Tan Man frames? (emphasis added by T. Graves) Yes, David, it would be nice if Christian would weigh in on this. --Tommy Big Frame-by-frame Breakdown of Tan Jacket Man In The Parking Lot clip (plus the film clip itself). Great work by Greda Dunkel at the JFK Assassination Forum! http://www.iimmgg.com/image/fc9a54c65c1b3241a5de760d5ce1a9de --Tommy Prior to the Long coat/ TJM/Signal, the IBM looking guy with glasses seems to be in more of a hurry to take his 2 friends in front of TJM Nice catch, Ian. But we've got to be careful. Members who think it was just a coincidence will start thinking that we're Conspiracy Theory Nuts or something. LOL --Tommy Thomas, I don't necessarily think the actions you have alluded to, are coincidences. But, your original discovery that TJM hands something off with his left hand is still in doubt to me. Did TJM have more than one item in his left hand when he made the exchange? Did he receive something in the transfer? What ends up in his left hand? Why risk an exchange with multiple items in hand? At the beginning of the clip, the item in hand appears dark, is a shadow causing this? When in the end, a lighter object is what I see. Just some troubling questions for me. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen Collins Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Both hands are not is his pockets. You're right. I stand corrected. Good catch. It's virtually impossible to tell what his left hand is doing in the full-speed clip. But in this clip, I don't see an object in his left hand. I see his fingers moving, though. David, He was very good. He was a professional. --Tommy It does look like an umbrella, but I don't think they made umbrellas that small in those days. You know, the folding umbrella came out later, I believe. It rained that morning. Possibly an umbrella, possibly a gun or possibly a phone. Kathy C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 5, 2011 Author Share Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) Big Frame-by-frame Breakdown of Tan Jacket Man In The Parking Lot clip (plus the film clip itself). Great work by Greda Dunkel at the JFK Assassination Forum! http://www.iimmgg.com/image/fc9a54c65c1b3241a5de760d5ce1a9de --Tommy Prior to the Long coat/ TJM/Signal, the IBM looking guy with glasses seems to be in more of a hurry to take his 2 friends in front of TJM Nice catch, Ian. But we've got to be careful. Members who think it was just a coincidence will start thinking that we're Conspiracy Theory Nuts or something. LOL --Tommy Thomas, I don't necessarily think the actions you have alluded to, are coincidences. But, your original discovery that TJM hands something off with his left hand is still in doubt to me. Did TJM have more than one item in his left hand when he made the exchange? Did he receive something in the transfer? What ends up in his left hand? Why risk an exchange with multiple items in hand? At the beginning of the clip, the item in hand appears dark, is a shadow causing this? When in the end, a lighter object is what I see. Just some troubling questions for me. chris Chris, They are troubling questions for me as well. Maybe we will never know the answers. I do know one thing for sure. Something "fishy" is happening. The fact that Blue Coated Cuban-Looking Man takes a half step towards TJM and leans towards him, as well, has got to be more than just a coincidence. Also interesting is the fact that another Latino (in dark sports coat and tie) walks up close to BCC-LM towards the end of the film clip... --Tommy Edited December 6, 2011 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted December 5, 2011 Author Share Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) [...] Why isn't Errol Morris looking at the films like we do here? Christian Frantz Toussay, what could you do with the Tan Man frames? (emphasis added by T. Graves) Yes, David, it would be nice if Christian would weigh in on this. --Tommy Big Frame-by-frame Breakdown of Tan Jacket Man In The Parking Lot clip (plus the film clip itself). Great work by Greda Dunkel at the JFK Assassination Forum! http://www.iimmgg.com/image/fc9a54c65c1b3241a5de760d5ce1a9de --Tommy [...] edited and bumped bumped again because I want everyone to be aware of Greda Dunkel's link Edited December 6, 2011 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 (edited) http://educationforu...opic=18446&st=0 While I think there's probablya lot of good information in the DP photos taken before and after theassassination, and the Tan Jacket Man with the weird bald spot on his head -certainly is an interesting guy who we should be able to identify - and he seems young enough to be possibly still living, but I'm not convinced he's handinganything off here, though it does look suspicious. And thanks to Greda Dunkelfor posting the frames. http://www.iimmgg.co...5de760d5ce1a9de http://www.iimmgg.co...7b0f9461e69ce6a Such surreptitious- furtive handing off of something - something hot - is a trained and practiced intelligence craft that is routinely used in all covert operations in the field. A good example of it in action is featured in the Hollywood movie "Falcon and the Snowman," which is based on a true-to-life story and primarily takes place at the Cuban Embassyin Mexico City. Are these two men seen in other photos or film taken that day? BK Edited December 6, 2011 by William Kelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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