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George de Mohrenschildt Death


Tommy Wilkens
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What is impossible is this scenario, quoting from the police reposted posted by Bernice:

"At 2:21.03 P.M, the gunshot is audible and almost immediately something is heard falling to the floor, believed to be the shotgun falling, or catapulted by the blast, to the floor."

"The left leg was bent slightly at the knee and the upper portion of a double-barrel shotgun was resting on the top of the left foot."

Either the noise picked up was not the sound of the shotgun hitting the floor -- or the shotgun was moved and placed across deM's foot - because if it had fallen on his foot, the noise would be muffled -- and in any case, it probably bounces off. The opposite is very unlike - that it bounces off the floor and onto his foot.

Hmmmm, so where exactly did you get your forensic training/experience, you seem to think you understand such matters than the various cops at the scene, or were they all ‘in on it’?

This page lists various 20 gauge shotguns for sale, they have barrel lengths of 22 – 30” [56 – 76 cm] and total lengths of 40 – 53” [103 – 137 cm] so the butt of the gun could have hit the floor a few feet from his feet and fallen back on one.

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/gauge-automatic-shotguns-sale-online-shop-firearms-c-9935_13769_13910_13921.html

JIM DIEUGENIO WROTE:

Greg:

please note

unless there is a contact wound to the head

What makes you think the barrel was in “contact” with his “cranial vault”? Also DeM shot himself with a 20-gage shotgun which used far less massive ammo than far more common 12-gauge models and thus presumably even less likely to produce an exit wound than them. According to Wikipedia, “12 gauge is the most common size,[1] with up to 50% of the overall shotgun market in the United States”, “A 20-gauge shotgun is sometimes considered more suitable for hunting certain types of game, because it damages less meat,which makes it suitable for most game birds.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_(bore_diameter)#Sizes_in_use

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20-gauge_shotgun

Perhaps Greg or Jim could spell out a plausible scenario that better explains the facts. Do they think DeM. was murdered with some other weapon? Or at some other location? How did the killer(s) get in and out without being noticed or making any sounds picked up on the tape or stepping in the massive pool of blood? Were Mrs. Tilton, her servants and the cops all ‘in on it’?

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well, the other possibility - because we know something like this likely happened on the 6th floor on November 22, 1963 - is that

1) the people at the house were scared and intimidated into saying they saw nothing (see Duke Lane on some of his thoughts re: November 22);

2) The tape was faked (because we know that A LOT of evidence in this case has been faked);

3) That, with the above, someone came in, told Demohrhenschildt that unless he cooperated, his family and everyone at the house would be murdered, and shot him point blank and posed the scene.

the problem is, Len, that so much has been tampered with a forged and made up in this whole business, that my above 3 points are far from impossible, which is an extremely sad thing.

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Hmmmm, so where exactly did you get your forensic training/experience, you seem to think you understand such matters than the various cops at the scene, or were they all 'in on it'?

This page lists various 20 gauge shotguns for sale, they have barrel lengths of 22 – 30" [56 – 76 cm] and total lengths of 40 – 53" [103 – 137 cm] so the butt of the gun could have hit the floor a few feet from his feet and fallen back on one.

http://www.ableammo....3910_13921.html

Ah yes... that old chestnut... "where did you get your qualifications"*... Len, don't know about you, but I was born with a functioning brain and I know how to read and, with occasional exception for some of the gibberish here, I comprehend what I read. Research Skills Sans Frontières. If you have an ingrained need to be the Tin Man looking for a wizard to give him a piece of paper, that is entirely up to you.

Re the gun length: The vast majority of shotgun suicides have the butt resting on the floor for stability. For DeM to be holding it up in a manner which would make it land butt first seems so awkward a position as to rule it out. We also don't know what the floor covering was.

Re the cops: cops look for the easiest solution. They obtained information alleging he was suicidal. He is found in circumstances that look like a suicide took place. No one saw any thing. The tape picked up nothing suspicious. The all important inquest was performed by David Bludworth, the State Attorney: he had never performed one before. Case closed.

The first person I would be looking at is Mrs Tilton. She organized the taping. She owned the shotgun. I'd like to know what kind of relationship she had with DeM. I suspect it was frosty at best...

I also note that certain windows on the second floor and the entire third floor were not connected to the alarm system.

One of the other clues is the scratching heard by DeM. I have located some indications that performing various actions with guns may result in scratching sounds depending on the condition of the weapon. Even the apparel favored by all your trendiest killers can make scratching sounds...

The FNP-9 also has a weird "springy-screetching" sound when you rack the slide to work the action of the gun. I don't have the right words to describe the sound, except to say is sounds kinda like aluminum/hollow/springy/screetch when operating the slide.

http://www.fnforum.n...elp-t21401.html

When I went hunting recently I had a gortex type military jacket on. It was the only camo I had. Not a good idea. Every time I moved it made a loud scratching noise. The BP I sold had a pretty loud ratchet sound when cocking.

http://www.1911.com/...un-safety_2.afn

edit: I will save further comment until if/when I am able to read the autopsy report.

*Some years ago I was asked that same question by a medical specialist after telling her she was misdiagnosing my wife and telling her what the correct diagnosis was. After a month of my wife's health deteriorating, it was finally decided exploratory surgery was needed to see what what was happening. End result: the surgery turned into a major operation to fix the now identified condition - the condition I had said a month earlier. Even the surgeon questioned how I could have known. It's called "research", Len. I looked at the combination of symptoms and other relevant factors and made a short list. Then I culled that list for various reasons until one condition was left. It was a rare enough case that the specialist sought permission from my wife to write a paper on it. What galls me is that had they listened to me in the first place, they could have tested her specifically for it and performed keyhole surgery to correct it. Instead, the "trained professionals" left her with a scar running near the full length of her torso. So go ahead. Len... any time you want to question my "training/experience" I have a few more examples I can give you.

Edited by Greg Parker
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Ah yes... that old chestnut... "where did you get your qualifications"... Len, don't know about you, but I was born with a functioning brain

So what happened since then?

and I know how to read and, with occasional exception for some of the gibberish here, I comprehend what I read.

During our debate about the Darwin bombings you frequently proved otherwise for example you claimed the commission that investigated them continued into 1945 but your source clearly stated it ended in 1942 and you cited some text about Broome as if it were about Darwin.

Research Skills Sans Frontières. If you have an ingrained need to be the Tin Man looking for a wizard to give him a piece of paper, that is entirely up to you.

Re the gun length: The vast majority of shotgun suicides have the butt resting on the floor for stability.

That sounds like something you just made up or have you actually researched gun positioning in “shotgun suicides”? The triggers of the shotguns listed on this page are about 13 - 16 inched from the end of the butt so a shooter would have to be stooped over if it was “resting on the floor”.

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/gauge-automatic-shotguns-sale-online-shop-firearms-c-9935_13769_13910_13921.html

"For DeM to be holding it up in a manner which would make it land butt first seems so awkward a position as to rule it out."

??? Seems natural to me, we could have him sitting in the chair with his hands and the trigger in his lap and the barrel between his knees and shins. What position would he have to hold the gun to have the barrel land first? Do think he would have held the over his head while looking up sorta like a fratboy chugging a beer? You do know that the barrel is the tube the bullet goes through and the butt hold when shooting, don't you?

We also don't know what the floor covering was.

Re the cops: cops look for the easiest solution. They obtained information alleging he was suicidal.

"Alleging"? Do you think his wife and daughter were ‘in on it’?

"He is found in circumstances that look like a suicide took place. No one saw any thing. The tape picked up nothing suspicious. The all important inquest was performed by David Bludworth, the State Attorney: he had never performed one before. Case closed."

Yes, I’m sure a social worker with no forensic training, who never was in the house is better qualified than police detectives who were at the scene about an hour after the shooting and spoke to the witnesses.

"The first person I would be looking at is Mrs Tilton. She organized the taping."

And just how did the taping add to the conspiracy, it only added a complication you have yet to explain away, how did the killers do the deed without producing any suspicious sounds?

"She owned the shotgun. I'd like to know what kind of relationship she had with DeM. I suspect it was frosty at best..."

Yes people stay at the houses of people they don’t get along with all the time.

"One of the other clues is the scratching heard by DeM."

Sounds like a clue to the clueless or perhaps someone desperately looking for 'anomalies'. DeM said he heard the sounds over 20 minutes before he was shot. I guess the killer was hiding in the closet/under the bed and the maid, told where DeM thought the sounds were coming from did see him.

I have located some indications that performing various actions with guns may result in scratching sounds depending on the condition of the weapon. Even the apparel favored by all your trendiest killers can make scratching sounds...

The FNP-9 also has a weird "springy-screetching" sound when you rack the slide to work the action of the gun. I don't have the right words to describe the sound, except to say is sounds kinda like aluminum/hollow/springy/screetch when operating the slide.

http://www.fnforum.n...elp-t21401.html

LOL a FNP-9 is a handgun and cats don’t make “aluminum/hollow/springy/screetch” sounds.

"When I went hunting recently I had a gortex type military jacket on. It was the only camo I had. Not a good idea. Every time I moved it made a loud scratching noise. The BP I sold had a pretty loud ratchet sound when cocking.

What were you saying about “comprehend[ing] what [you] read”? The “loud scratching noise” was made by the hunter’s “gortex type military JACKET” not his weapon

Edited by Len Colby
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I'm with Greg on the problem of believing the cops; case after case is documented in the USA of police taking the path of least resistance. And when I worked for the Mayor of a major city some 20 years ago I remember the POLICE CHIEF telling me that "cops are the laziest fu**ing people I ever met."

Edited by Allen Lowe
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So what happened since then?

Cute! biggrin.gif

During our debate about the Darwin bombings you frequently proved otherwise for example you claimed the commission that investigated them continued into 1945 but your source clearly stated it ended in 1942 and you cited some text about Broome as if it were about Darwin.

IIRC the commission did continue in one form or another for 3 years after it made its findings and again, IIRC, further reports resulted.

Citing text about Broome as if it were Darwin? There were bombings in other locations apart from Darwin. The whole area is referred to colloquially as "The Top End" It includes Darwin and Broome. It is possible I referred to "Darwin" when "The Top End" should have been the term used.

That sounds like something you just made up or have you actually researched gun positioning in "shotgun suicides"? The triggers of the shotguns listed on this page are about 13 - 16 inched from the end of the butt so a shooter would have to be stooped over if it was "resting on the floor"

Yes, I have researched gun positioning in shotgun suicides. You might start by looking at Hemingway and Sabow. Yes, they have to be stooped over...

??? Seems natural to me, we could have him sitting in the chair with his hands and the trigger in his lap and the barrel between his knees and shins.

Seems natural to you? LOL. How often do you commit suicide, Len?

Alleging"? Do you think his wife and daughter were 'in on it'?

No. But it is an allegation until verified. And assuming he was, we don't know if it was caused by a psychiatric condition, wrong medication, illicit drugs, or by some other means.

Yes, I'm sure a social worker with no forensic training, who never was in the house is better qualified than police detectives who were at the scene about an hour after the shooting and spoke to the witnesses.

Translation: officials should never have their actions or findings questioned.You are nothing, if not consistent on that point, my friend. Btw, I'm not a social worker, though I've worked with many... psych cases all.

"The first person I would be looking at is Mrs Tilton. She organized the taping."

And just how did the taping add to the conspiracy, it only added a complication you have yet to explain away, how did the killers do the deed without producing any suspicious sounds?

From DeM's WC testimony:

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very frequently I went to visit her there, as often as I could. And Mrs. Clark [later to become Mrs Tilton] and her husband wanted to adopt her. So we had a litigation there. I objected to her adoption.

The tape recording is all too convenient, but not all that believable on the face of it. Video recorders were available at that time, but expensive enough so that only the likes of Mrs Tilton could afford one. Was there one in the house? we don't know.

"She owned the shotgun. I'd like to know what kind of relationship she had with DeM. I suspect it was frosty at best..."

Yes people stay at the houses of people they don't get along with all the time.

Yes, apparently some do. Refer to De M's testimony above.

"One of the other clues is the scratching heard by DeM."

Sounds like a clue to the clueless or perhaps someone desperately looking for 'anomalies'. DeM said he heard the sounds over 20 minutes before he was shot. I guess the killer was hiding in the closet/under the bed and the maid, told where DeM thought the sounds were coming from did see him.

We know that the other staff reported he seemed quite normal that day, so we can rule out auditory hallucinations. And as we know there was no cat, some other explanation needs to be considered. What's your best guess? I think there was possibly someone in another room on the second floor, or up on the the third floor.

LOL a FNP-9 is a handgun and cats don't make "aluminum/hollow/springy/screetch" sounds.

Yes, I know it's a handgun, Len. Do you doubt shotguns in certain certain circumstances, make scratching noises?

And unlike you, the person who replied to the guy with FNP-9 had no doubt the poster was talking about a scratching noise.

"As for the springy scratching noise, check the guide rod on the recoil spring and see if it is being scratched up. You could have a burr on the recoil spring. Actually, mine kind of does that minus the scratching sound (I think it might be a combination of the recoil spring and the slide/barrel contact)."

"When I went hunting recently I had a gortex type military jacket on. It was the only camo I had. Not a good idea. Every time I moved it made a loud scratching noise. The BP I sold had a pretty loud ratchet sound when cocking.

http://www.1911.com/...un-safety_2.afn"

What were you saying about "comprehend[ing] what [you] read"? The "loud scratching noise" was made by the hunter's "gortex type military JACKET" not his weapon

LOL. You make it too easy sometimes, so I'll go easy on you my brother, and just ask you to go back and read what I actually said.

Edited by Greg Parker
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And just how did the taping add to the conspiracy, it only added a complication you have yet to explain away, how did the killers do the deed without producing any suspicious sounds?

I assumed the footstep sounds are quite suspicious. They do not necessarily (given the context of the murder itself) have to have belonged to DeM.

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And just how did the taping add to the conspiracy, it only added a complication you have yet to explain away, how did the killers do the deed without producing any suspicious sounds?

I assumed the footstep sounds are quite suspicious. They do not necessarily (given the context of the murder itself) have to have belonged to DeM.

There are also what appears to be (possibly barefoot) footprints in the blood leading away from DeM in the death scene.

post-757-015914800 1325485396_thumb.jpg

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And just how did the taping add to the conspiracy, it only added a complication you have yet to explain away, how did the killers do the deed without producing any suspicious sounds?

I assumed the footstep sounds are quite suspicious. They do not necessarily (given the context of the murder itself) have to have belonged to DeM.

There are also what appears to be (possibly barefoot) footprints in the blood leading away from DeM in the death scene.

They also appear to belong to someone who is a flatfoot. (DPD? ;) )

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And just how did the taping add to the conspiracy, it only added a complication you have yet to explain away, how did the killers do the deed without producing any suspicious sounds?

I assumed the footstep sounds are quite suspicious. They do not necessarily (given the context of the murder itself) have to have belonged to DeM.

There are also what appears to be (possibly barefoot) footprints in the blood leading away from DeM in the death scene.

They also appear to belong to someone who is a flatfoot. (DPD? ;) )

Thanks Ray! Completely agree! (well, maybe not DPD... actually look... petite...? female....?

We really need all the police reports and autopsy and inquest reports. I'd like to compare those with the Sabow case.

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And just how did the taping add to the conspiracy, it only added a complication you have yet to explain away, how did the killers do the deed without producing any suspicious sounds?

I assumed the footstep sounds are quite suspicious. They do not necessarily (given the context of the murder itself) have to have belonged to DeM.

There are also what appears to be (possibly barefoot) footprints in the blood leading away from DeM in the death scene.

Interesting odd that none the detectives, next of kin or even the JFK researchers who've looked into this seem to have mentioned this. How long was the photo taken after he was discovered? Are there any photos showing more of the room? if someone stepped in the blood they would have left more foot prints.

Greg,

I will further reply tomorrow.

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And just how did the taping add to the conspiracy, it only added a complication you have yet to explain away, how did the killers do the deed without producing any suspicious sounds?

I assumed the footstep sounds are quite suspicious. They do not necessarily (given the context of the murder itself) have to have belonged to DeM.

There are also what appears to be (possibly barefoot) footprints in the blood leading away from DeM in the death scene.

Interesting odd that none the detectives, next of kin or even the JFK researchers who've looked into this seem to have mentioned this. How long was the photo taken after he was discovered? Are there any photos showing more of the room? if someone stepped in the blood they would have left more foot prints.

Greg,

I will further reply tomorrow.

Len, your questions are exactly why I want to look at all the reports.

The issue of no more prints may well be as simple as jumping onto a towel left nearly just for that purpose. But as I said... the reports hopefully make things a little clearer.

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# My latest replies

So what happened since then?

Cute! biggrin.gif

# Well you did totally open yourself up to that!

During our debate about the Darwin bombings you frequently proved otherwise for example you claimed the commission that investigated them continued into 1945 but your source clearly stated it ended in 1942 and you cited some text about Broome as if it were about Darwin.

IIRC the commission did continue in one form or another for 3 years after it made its findings and again, IIRC, further reports resulted.

# No it didn’t. The reports were made public in 1945, hence your confusion.

Citing text about Broome as if it were Darwin? There were bombings in other locations apart from Darwin. The whole area is referred to colloquially as "The Top End" It includes Darwin and Broome. It is possible I referred to "Darwin" when "The Top End" should have been the term used.

# I asked you for evidence of Dutch refugees in Darwin during the raids and you posted a link which seemed to support your case but upon closer examination it was about refugees Broome weeks or month later.

That sounds like something you just made up or have you actually researched gun positioning in "shotgun suicides"? The triggers of the shotguns listed on this page are about 13 - 16 inched from the end of the butt so a shooter would have to be stooped over if it was "resting on the floor"

Yes, I have researched gun positioning in shotgun suicides. You might start by looking at Hemingway and Sabow. Yes, they have to be stooped over...

# Great then you will have no problem citing some studies and evidence Hemingway and Sabow positioned the butts of their shotguns on the floor/ground. I take it then you don’t think Sabow was murdered? I did a quick google and found no info about what position they were in, but there was no mention of any chairs. I find rather unlikely someone would stoop over and prop themselves up with a gun, now that really “seems so awkward a position as to rule it out.".

??? Seems natural to me, we could have him sitting in the chair with his hands and the trigger in his lap and the barrel between his knees and shins.

Seems natural to you? LOL. How often do you commit suicide, Len?

# At least twice a week! Of course not having ever killed yourself didn’t stop you from opining. Tell me how someone would have to hold the gun for the barrel to hit first?

Alleging"? Do you think his wife and daughter were 'in on it'?

No. But it is an allegation until verified. And assuming he was, we don't know if it was caused by a psychiatric condition, wrong medication, illicit drugs, or by some other means.

# Four witnesses, including his closest relatives, said he was suicidal and a fifth said he acting ‘crazy’ but according to you it is “unverified”, but you unquestioningly accept the word of one witness who said there were scratching sounds in the house.

Three people all lying? Remember how adamant you were during the Darwin debate about respecting witnesses? IIRC one of the detectives said the widow showed him some papers.

# LOL, no reply, not surprised!

Yes, I'm sure a social worker with no forensic training, who never was in the house is better qualified than police detectives who were at the scene about an hour after the shooting and spoke to the witnesses.

Translation: officials should never have their actions or findings questioned.You are nothing, if not consistent on that point, my friend. Btw, I'm not a social worker, though I've worked with many... psych cases all.

# Better translation, the opinions of people with relevant expertise and direct access to the evidence carries a lot more weight than those of people with neither.

"The first person I would be looking at is Mrs Tilton. She organized the taping."

And just how did the taping add to the conspiracy, it only added a complication you have yet to explain away, how did the killers do the deed without producing any suspicious sounds?

From DeM's WC testimony:

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very frequently I went to visit her there, as often as I could. And Mrs. Clark [later to become Mrs Tilton] and her husband wanted to adopt her. So we had a litigation there. I objected to her adoption.

The tape recording is all too convenient, but not all that believable on the face of it. Video recorders were available at that time, but expensive enough so that only the likes of Mrs Tilton could afford one. Was there one in the house? we don't know.

# Until you turn evidence she had one there is nothing “not all that believable” about it. Don’t you think using a tape recorder if she a VCR would have raised suspicion? You still haven’t answered my question, “how did the taping add to the conspiracy”?

"She owned the shotgun. I'd like to know what kind of relationship she had with DeM. I suspect it was frosty at best..."

Yes people stay at the houses of people they don't get along with all the time.

Yes, apparently some do. Refer to De M's testimony above.

# That was 13 – 21 years beforehand do you have any evidence they didn’t get along closer to his time of death?

"One of the other clues is the scratching heard by DeM."

Sounds like a clue to the clueless or perhaps someone desperately looking for 'anomalies'. DeM said he heard the sounds over 20 minutes before he was shot. I guess the killer was hiding in the closet/under the bed and the maid, told where DeM thought the sounds were coming from did see him.

We know that the other staff reported he seemed quite normal that day, so we can rule out auditory hallucinations. And as we know there was no cat, some other explanation needs to be considered. What's your best guess? I think there was possibly someone in another room on the second floor, or up on the the third floor.

# BS – The gardener only said he saw him walking across the highway in the morning, the cook only saw him briefly. There is no indication in the reports either of them commented on his mental state. The maid’s account he was upset by the news his daughter gave him was confirmed by his daughter. The maid also said he was acting “crazy” the last time she saw him and calling the no existent cat. His daughter said he spoken of suicide days earlier and was upset when she told him Fonzi came looking for him. Epstein said he was acting strangely even before he got the news and that a third party told him DeM was suicidal. Funny also that you unquestioningly accept the maid’s claim he said he heard cat like scratching sounds but doubt her when she said he was acting crazy. Pick cherries much Mr. Parker?

LOL a FNP-9 is a handgun and cats don't make "aluminum/hollow/springy/screetch" sounds.

Yes, I know it's a handgun, Len. Do you doubt shotguns in certain certain circumstances, make scratching noises?

# Could be but in this case absence of evidence is evidence of absence, obviously you tried and failed to find mention of this but the best you came-up with was a citation to a pistol which makes a sound that doesn’t sound like a cat!! Why would the super-duper Ninja be futzing with the gun at the time? Odd that the maid didn’t notice it was missing when she searched the floor for the non-existent cat.

PS – AFAIK the only forum member who know much about shotguns is Mark Knight, but he seems to have disappeared.

And unlike you, the person who replied to the guy with FNP-9 had no doubt the poster was talking about a scratching noise.

"As for the springy scratching noise, check the guide rod on the recoil spring and see if it is being scratched up. You could have a burr on the recoil spring. Actually, mine kind of does that minus the scratching sound (I think it might be a combination of the recoil spring and the slide/barrel contact)."

"When I went hunting recently I had a gortex type military jacket on. It was the only camo I had. Not a good idea. Every time I moved it made a loud scratching noise. The BP I sold had a pretty loud ratchet sound when cocking.

http://www.1911.com/...un-safety_2.afn"

What were you saying about "comprehend[ing] what [you] read"? The "loud scratching noise" was made by the hunter's "gortex type military JACKET" not his weapon

LOL. You make it too easy sometimes, so I'll go easy on you my brother, and just ask you to go back and read what I actually said.

# OK, this time it was ‘my bad’ I read that in haste and thought you were sticking to relevant points. Do you think the super-duper invisible Ninja assassin would have worn an outfit that made so much noise it could be heard from another room?

Edited by Len Colby
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  • 2 years later...

Does anyone know where i can find copies of these photo?

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