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Reactions to the shot at 285


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This new video presentation includes the Zapruder segment from 282 to 312 in both extreme slow motion and at real time speed.

I really don't see how there can be any doubt that the limo passengers who all reacted within the same 1/6th of a second of one another, were startled then by a loud gunshot.

Decide for yourself:

The shots at 285 and 312 were only 1.5 seconds apart and much too close for Oswald to have fired both.

(edit) BTW, if you go to Youtube to view this, you can increase the resolution to 480p and enlarge the display. I also have a much better, Quicktime version of the film at this link. It is much easier to see Kellerman's reactions in that video.

http://jfkhistory.com/285reactions.mov

Edited by Robert Harris
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You are doing a good job of making your point here. You are demonstrating that there is something going on at this timespan of the Z-film. You also have corroboration from Alvarez, who acknowledges that something occurred that is consistent with the evidence of the known shots, though he tries to sidestep the critical issue of an additional gunshot by claiming it was caused by a 'siren'.

This is the most important part of your research in my book. Any other ideas as to where the shot came from should not detract from this critical issue.

'

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You are doing a good job of making your point here. You are demonstrating that there is something going on at this timespan of the Z-film. You also have corroboration from Alvarez, who acknowledges that something occurred that is consistent with the evidence of the known shots, though he tries to sidestep the critical issue of an additional gunshot by claiming it was caused by a 'siren'.

This is the most important part of your research in my book. Any other ideas as to where the shot came from should not detract from this critical issue.

'

The nature of the reactions and the fact that they all began within the same 1/6th of a second, combined with the statements of the same people we see reacting really do make this a slam dunk.

That's why the large majority of relevant witnesses in Dealey Plaza heard "closely bunched" shots at the end. I think some people are bothered by the apparent fact that there was also a shot after 312, but that shot was from a smaller weapon and came within half a second of the much louder 312 shot. Most people didn't hear it.

Edited by Robert Harris
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I really don't see how there can be any doubt that the limo passengers who all reacted within the same 1/6th of a second of one another, were startled then by a loud gunshot.

Thats because your only looking at it through your eyes, if you had my eyes you could clearly see what is the begining of the limo stop with the passangers being jolted forward

Not reacting to the sound of a shot

If thats the case where are all the "reactions" to the first shot?

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Bob,

Where is the reaction from those on the grass to a shot at approx 285?

Good one Chris

I bet Bob will say tht only the passangers in the lim heard the shots :lol:

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Robert,

Though I understand the argument you make here, I am not sure I agree. I think Christ' point about bystanders is a very valid reason to have doubts.

However, by starting a Z285 you have omitted a crucial point that might explain what you are seeing. In the frames preceding Z285, we see Jackie turn her attention from JFK to John Connelly. This, because he is screaming in pain. At Z285, the frame you start with, Jackie returns her attention to JFK. Rather than a shot that no one reacts to other than the passengers, is it not possible that what gets Kellerman's and Greer's attention is Connelly's screams?

I find it difficult to interpret Jackie doing anything else at Z312, than be looking at JFK's face/neck. Perspective and clarity of the frame make it difficult to be certain. However the logic of the reality of the moment make it difficult for me to accept that she is doing anything else than finding out what is wrong with her husband.

James.

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Bob,

Where is the reaction from those on the grass to a shot at approx 285?

Background stabilized. Frames 282-312

http://24.152.179.96:8400/6B1FE/Z.gif

chris

Since I just replied to your question in another forum, I will paste it here:

First of all, Jean Hill DID react within a fraction of a second following the limo passengers, snapping her head to the right.

mhfull.gif

But the loudest noise then was the shock wave which if from Oswald's rifle, generated a 130 decibel sound level, within a radius of 10 feet.

Brehm and the others along the road were about 20-40 feet from JFK then, and the sound level drops off exponentially, with distance. So what those people heard was probably less than half as loud as what the limo passengers heard.

But Brehm was very clear about where the limo was when he heard the first of three shots. He said he was "15-20 feet" from JFK in one interview on 11/22/63, and that he was "about 15 feet" from him in another interview. That's spot on for where JFK was at 285.

Jean Hill said she heard the first of several shots as the limo was "almost abreast" of her position, and Muchmore heard them begin just as she was snapping her final photo.

Those witnesses couldn't have supported me better if I had hired them :-)

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Robert,

Though I understand the argument you make here, I am not sure I agree. I think Christ' point about bystanders is a very valid reason to have doubts.

However, by starting a Z285 you have omitted a crucial point that might explain what you are seeing. In the frames preceding Z285, we see Jackie turn her attention from JFK to John Connelly. This, because he is screaming in pain. At Z285, the frame you start with, Jackie returns her attention to JFK. Rather than a shot that no one reacts to other than the passengers, is it not possible that what gets Kellerman's and Greer's attention is Connelly's screams?

I find it difficult to interpret Jackie doing anything else at Z312, than be looking at JFK's face/neck. Perspective and clarity of the frame make it difficult to be certain. However the logic of the reality of the moment make it difficult for me to accept that she is doing anything else than finding out what is wrong with her husband.

James.

Ok,let's start by taking a very close look at Mrs. Kennedy and her actions:

nellie2.gif

Connally starts to shout in the 240's and she responds by turning her attention to him.

Mrs. KENNEDY. ..I guess there was a noise, but it didn't seem like any different noise really because there is so much noise, motorcycles and things. But then suddenly Governor Connally was yelling, "Oh, no, no, no."

Mr. RANKIN. Did he turn toward you?

Mrs. KENNEDY. No; I was looking this way, to the left..

Ok, she was NOT talking about looking to the left, pre-223, right? She was answering Rankin's question - No, he didn't turn toward me. I turned to my left, toward him.

Also notice, that she didn't believe the first noise was a gunshot. She told Theodore White the same thing.

She continued:

and I heard these terrible noises. You know. And my husband never made any sound. So I turned to the right. And all I remember is seeing my husband, he had this sort of quizzical look on his face

Those were the two shots that followed, at 285 and 312. Her testimony matches her actions in the film, perfectly.

She confirms this again, in this part of her testimony. This gets a bit confusing, because Mrs. Kennedy basically, told two significantly different stories to the WC. One was about what she "used to believe" and the other was her obviously, altered story.

Mrs. KENNEDY. Well, there must have been two because the one that made me turn around was Governor Connally yelling..

That had to have been a transcription error. It makes no sense that "the one that made me turn around" was Connally yelling. What she undoubtedly said was, "Well, there must have been two because what made me turn around was Governor Connally yelling.."

Does that make sense? She continued..

And it used to confuse me because first I remembered there were three and I used to think my husband didn't make any sound when he was shot. And Governor Connally screamed. And then I read the other day that it was the same shot that hit them both. But I used to think if I only had been looking to the right I would have seen the first shot hit him, then I could have pulled him down, and then the second shot would not have hit him. But I heard Governor Connally yelling and that made me turn around, and as I turned to the right my husband was doing this [indicating with hand at neck]. He was receiving a bullet. And those are the only two I remember.

Mrs. Kennedy felt badly that her attention had been drawn to Connally, because if she had been looking at JFK when he was hit by the first of those two shots, she might have been able to pull him down before the fatal shot. Right?

Obviously, she heard the first of those two shots as she was turned toward JBC and then reacted to it, beginning at 290 - just like the other passengers did.

I don't believe for a millisecond that Mrs. Kennedy just forgot that she reached back across the trunk and recovered a piece of brain tissue and then carried it all the way back to Parkland and gave it to Dr. Jenkins. I think she was asked to withhold information about that shot, probably on the argument that any conspiracy would lead to Castro and provoke a world war.

But I don't think she was happy about it. She did everything in her power, to get the WC to read between the lines, by constantly referring to what she "used to believe". But they seemed to have a terrible aversion to asking her about any of that, even once.

But if you read her testimony carefully, I think you will agree that she heard TWO gunshots after Connally began to shout and she turned toward him. Those were the shots at 285 and 312.

Mrs. Connally's testimony about that was much clearer, with no ambiguity at all. Look at the animation at the top of this post. She looked back and saw JFK in distress in the late 250's, and then shortly after that, heard the shot that she (mistakenly I believe) thought wounded her husband. That was the same shot at 285 that Jackie heard after she had been distracted by JBC. Nellie testified that after she heard it, she turned her full attention to her husband and pulled him back to her.

It's very easy to see exactly when that happened, and that her reaction was simultaneous with Jackie's and the other witnesses.

Edited by Robert Harris
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And one other point. I suppose this is a bit of a subjective call, but it seems pretty clear to me that by 312, Mrs. Kennedy was looking down and away from her husband. She was not inspecting him at all. She was ducking.

312.jpg

The fact that all of those reactions began within the same 1/6th of a second is either the greatest coincidence in the history of mankind, or it is proof that those people were startled.

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Robert,

Though I understand the argument you make here, I am not sure I agree. I think Christ' point about bystanders is a very valid reason to have doubts.

However, by starting a Z285 you have omitted a crucial point that might explain what you are seeing. In the frames preceding Z285, we see Jackie turn her attention from JFK to John Connelly. This, because he is screaming in pain. At Z285, the frame you start with, Jackie returns her attention to JFK. Rather than a shot that no one reacts to other than the passengers, is it not possible that what gets Kellerman's and Greer's attention is Connelly's screams?

I find it difficult to interpret Jackie doing anything else at Z312, than be looking at JFK's face/neck. Perspective and clarity of the frame make it difficult to be certain. However the logic of the reality of the moment make it difficult for me to accept that she is doing anything else than finding out what is wrong with her husband.

James.

With all due respect, Jackie mentioned something in her WC testimony about Kellerman and Greer not being able to hear what was going on in the passenger section. She seemed to think there was a privacy window in place at the time. That was not so; there had been one in the limo when it was delivered in June, 1961, but it was removed three months later. However, it seems fair to question just what Kellerman was able to hear from Connally.

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Robert,

Though I understand the argument you make here, I am not sure I agree. I think Christ' point about bystanders is a very valid reason to have doubts.

However, by starting a Z285 you have omitted a crucial point that might explain what you are seeing. In the frames preceding Z285, we see Jackie turn her attention from JFK to John Connelly. This, because he is screaming in pain. At Z285, the frame you start with, Jackie returns her attention to JFK. Rather than a shot that no one reacts to other than the passengers, is it not possible that what gets Kellerman's and Greer's attention is Connelly's screams?

I find it difficult to interpret Jackie doing anything else at Z312, than be looking at JFK's face/neck. Perspective and clarity of the frame make it difficult to be certain. However the logic of the reality of the moment make it difficult for me to accept that she is doing anything else than finding out what is wrong with her husband.

James.

And one other thing James. You said,

At Z285, the frame you start with, Jackie returns her attention to JFK.

It's important to realize that this statement was incorrect. Check your Zapruder film. She didn't turn back toward JFK until 290, as she reacted in almost perfect unison with the other passengers.

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Bob,

Where is the reaction from those on the grass to a shot at approx 285?

Background stabilized. Frames 282-312

http://24.152.179.96:8400/6B1FE/Z.gif

chris

Since I just replied to your question in another forum, I will paste it here:

First of all, Jean Hill DID react within a fraction of a second following the limo passengers, snapping her head to the right.

mhfull.gif

But the loudest noise then was the shock wave which if from Oswald's rifle, generated a 130 decibel sound level, within a radius of 10 feet.

Brehm and the others along the road were about 20-40 feet from JFK then, and the sound level drops off exponentially, with distance. So what those people heard was probably less than half as loud as what the limo passengers heard.

But Brehm was very clear about where the limo was when he heard the first of three shots. He said he was "15-20 feet" from JFK in one interview on 11/22/63, and that he was "about 15 feet" from him in another interview. That's spot on for where JFK was at 285.

Jean Hill said she heard the first of several shots as the limo was "almost abreast" of her position, and Muchmore heard them begin just as she was snapping her final photo.

Those witnesses couldn't have supported me better if I had hired them :-)

Bob,

Jean Hill starts her head turn at approx frame 304.

I could argue she was turning her head to get a last glimpse of the limo, as it has passed her by 304.

That is too many elapsed frames for someone reacting to a shot at 285. imo

What was Jean's description of her actions when she heard the shots?

chris

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Bob,

Jean Hill starts her head turn at approx frame 304.

I could argue she was turning her head to get a last glimpse of the limo, as it has passed her by 304.

That is too many elapsed frames for someone reacting to a shot at 285. imo

What was Jean's description of her actions when she heard the shots?

chris

I think we must have different Zapruder films :rolleyes:

She began to turn at some point in the range of 294-296. Those frames are blurry, but by 298 she is fully turned to her right. It doesn't make sense that she would turn away from the spectacle of the POTUS approaching with his elbows above his shoulders, unless there was a very good reason for doing so.

Her turn was not a startle reaction, BTW. She just looked back in the direction of the shot. Only those who were quite close to the path of the bullet should have been startled in a way that their reactions would be so dramatic and visible. For example, if we were looking at Zapruder when he "jiggled" the camera, we probably would have never realized that he was reacting.

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The issue I see is that Hill said she ran to the edge of street to say to JFK that she wished to take a photo. This calls into question frames that are quite possibly missing because we do not see her as close as she testified in the film at all whatsoever.

Edited by B. A. Copeland
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