Another proof the Zapruder film has been faked

[Robin Unger]

So using your reasoning Jim

Since we don't see Chaney in these Bell frames, as the Limo is about to enter the underpass.

( the Bell Movie must have been altered to remove him) ?

In the Bell frames below we can clearly see the three lead motorcycles shown in the McIntire scan

Bell GIF

Edited January 26, 2012 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

Looking back the other way

In McIntire Chaney is seen still inside the underpass.

[Robin Unger]

Edited:

double post

Edited January 26, 2012 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

Looking back the other way

In McIntire Chaney is seen still inside the underpass.

[Robin Unger]

In the NIX film

at the moment of the head shot, both Hargis and Chaney can clearly be seen hittting the brakes on there motorcycles.

Hargis puts his left foot down on the ground and his head snaps to the right

At the same time Hargis comes to a halt, Chaney also comes to a halt and his head also snaps to the right.

something on the right side of the motorcycles has caught there attention

at this moment in time the queen Mary then passes Chaney, and leaves him behind.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Robin Unger

[Calli Robertson]

Due to multiple posts being 'lost' between 5:25~11:25 A.M. 24/01/2012, this post has been re-submitted 26/01/2012 2:32 A.M. GMT

My responses to Prof. Fetzer, in red.

Sure--and for every other important aspect of the case, we can EXCLUDE the best witnesses to those events! Pretty soon, we will discover that what was actually going on was a circus parade--except we will have to EXCLUDE the witnesses to those events, too! In this case, the witness list is simply unimpeachable, since it includes persons who may well have been involved themselves!

The way I see it, is there is no 'best' witnesses to your version of events, other than the lead car occupants. There is not one person watching the motorcade who states that a bike passed the limo before the underpass. No matter how you slice it. Quoting witnesses and then saying that these were the guys who may have been involved, works both ways. Why would you assume Curry, Lawson, and Sorrells were truthful?

Why would Secret Service agents, motorcycle patrolmen, and the Chief of Police have been wrong about this? There is no good reason to suppose they would have been. Next you will ask me to prove what Clint Hill has reported saying over the past nearly 50 years--but EXCLUDING CLINT HILL! Too much was going on. There is no reason to suppose everyone there noticed everything.

In regards to Chaney, I've got every reason to suspect everyone there noticed nothing.

They would have been wrong if the chain of events made them look inadequate, or negligent, or just plain slow, in their actions. This is why Sorrells says he was worried about the limo passing, that he knew they should have been in front. Unfortunately, the limo did pass them (Daniels, McIntyre). This is stated by Lawson in his testimony :

Mr. Lawson.

"When the Presidential car leaped ahead" (emphasis mine), although there was quite a distance, not quite a distance but there was some distance between the two cars, they came up on us quite fast before we were actually able to get in motion. They seemed to have a more rapid acceleration than we did.

Mr. Dulles.

Did they actually pass you?

Mr. Lawson.

No, sir; they never did. We stayed ahead of them.

Daniels and McIntyre show Lawson, still under oath, was 'economical' with the truth. Lead car occupants playing CYA.

Anyone who is serious about getting to the truth of these matters has to take to heart what Clint Hill has been telling us for nearly 50 years now. Not only is there unimpeachable testimony of Officer Chaney motoring forward, but Clint Hill's testimony confirms it. That Tink and now Calli SHOULD BE IN SOME STATE OF DENIAL ABOUT ALL OF THIS is utterly beyond belief!

There is NO 'unimpeachable testimony' that unequivocally states Chaney passed the limo before the underpass. What Clint Hill has to say about the wound(s), has nothing to do with the Chaney issue. Interestingly, neither himself (Hill), Greer, Kellerman, or any of Halfbacks agents mention a bike pulling forwards either. The 'unimpeachable testimony' you keep citing, is vague, almost to the point of being cryptic.

"As I approached the vehicle there was a third shot. It hit the President in the head, upper right rear of the right ear, caused a gaping hole in his head, which caused brain matter, blood, and bone fragments to spew forth out over the car, over myself. At that point Mrs. Kennedy came up out of the back seat onto the trunk of the car. She was trying to retrieve something that had gone off to the right rear. She did not know I was there. At that point I grabbed Mrs. Kennedy, put her in the back seat. The President fell over into her lap, to his left.

"His right side of his head was exposed. I could see his eyes were fixed. There was a hole in the upper right rear portion of his head about the size of my palm. Most of the gray matter in that area had been removed, and was scattered throughout the entire car, including on Mrs. Kennedy. I turned and gave the follow-up car crew the thumbs-down, indicating that we were in a very dire situation. The driver accelerated; he got up to the lead car which was driven by Chief Curry, the Dallas Chief of Police . . ..

No mention of motorcycle.

Not only does Clint's description of the wound contradict your characterization, but his account is consistent with what Bobby Hargis, Forrest Sorrels, and Chief Jesse Curry have told us about about Chaney, which refutes the film's authenticity.

My characterisation of what? I'm not talking about Clint Hill, or what he proclaimed to see of the President's wounds, Jim. Curry is vague. Sorrells, imo, is misremembering, or covering his ass.

Tink has repeatedly claimed this happened AFTER the limo had already passed the TUP and that we have simply not been thinking about the temporal relationship here. My three favorites are Bobby Hargis, Forrest Sorrels, and Chief Jesse Curry:

(1) Forrest Sorrels: "A motorcycle pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled Is anybody hurt?, to which the officer replied in the affirmative, and Chief Curry immediately broadcast to surround the building. By that time we had gotten just about under the underpass when the Presidents car pulled up alongside, . . ."

See above reply.

(2) Bobby Hargis: "I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he [the President] was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off . . . .

Unless Hargis actually stopped to talk to Chaney, how does he know what Chaney is going to do, or say? Recall the statement of DPD motorcyclist Jackson, whose passage I posted previously. Jackson wrote his account of what happened the night of the 22nd, specifically for the reason that he did not want his recollections muddied by the passing of time. It is, in essence, a first day report. Jackson states that he spoke to Chaney 'Let's go after them'

Meaning : The limo has gone, we better go after them'. Hence Hargis stating he watched Chaney slam his bike into first gear, then motor off. Why would Chaney need to slam his bike into first gear, if he was already gone?

(3) Chief Jesse Curry: "at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the Presidents caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there . . ."

Vague. The 'speeding up' is the limo now catching, and soon to pass, Curry's car. The 'about this time' is a generalisation with no specific location given.

How is that unimpeachable proof? They were tring to play CYA because they were caught napping!

James Chaney, Bobby Hargis, and Clint Hill WERE NOT OCCUPANTS OF THE LEAD CAR, in case you have not noticed. And citing other alleged reports and later interviews, whose authenticity is open to question, is not a very persuasive way to argue your case. In fact, such a case as you are attempting to contrive appears to be superfluous. WE ALREADY HAVE SUFFICIENT PROOF AT HAND.

I had noticed, I wasn't under the impression they were lead car occupants. I am aware that their recall of events is being twisted to suit your theory though. I was hoping for witnesses like Altgens, Moorman, Hill, anyone on the overpass, etc. You are cherry picking witnesses who are favourable to your outcome. Whilst i'm trying to find corroborating evidence for all of this, i'm coming up short. I'm trying to be impartial, believe it or not, but the evidence is against this happening as you posit.

Others can address your questions about how the films and photos were faked or altered, but the agency certainly has the ability to do that, where most of the evidence in this case has been fabricated. Since Chief Curry called for the building to be "surrounded" when Chaney told him JFK had been shot, which he did at the TUP, there really is NO POINT in fantasizing about the entrance to the freeway.

Understood, i'll await their input. I'm not denying the 'agency' (whoever that refers to, CIA?) have the ability to alter photographs. They would have needed a time machine for Daniels and McIntyre though.....

If this isn't enough proof for you on this point, I can't imagine what it would take to convince you. Since only Tom Robinson and Ed Reed watched Humes take a cranial saw to JFK's head, I suppose you want me to prove that but EXCLUDING TOM ROBINSON AND ED REED? And then it will be the limo stop but EXCLUDING ALL THE LIMO STOP WITNESSES? How dumb are we supposed to be?

No, it's not enough proof for me. Nothing will convince me Jim, because I know for a fact you are wrong. How many of your 'limo stop' witnesses can claim Chaney 'motoring forwards'? I don't want you to prove anything, Jim. I'll just shut up and take your word for it, shall I?

We are doing what we can to solve the case and you are doing something else. But the fact that someone like you has shown up tells me that we are making progress and that Tink has been outgunned. So they needed to send in the cavalry, which is why you are here. We all have better things to do, however, than to construct proofs WITHOUT THE MOST IMPORTANT EVIDENCE THAT PROVES THEM.

The fact that I have 'shown up' here, should tell you that it is going to take a bit more than your blatant misinterpretation of events to pass as fact.

Thanks.

Calli.

P.S. Robin, your clips and pics say it all......

Edited January 26, 2012 by Calli Robertson

[Anthony DeFiore]

Sign me up as one to say, "What the hell are you talking about Mr. Thompson?!"

[Bernice Moore]

B -

Did you mean to say the LEFT HAND TURN from Houston to Elm

or

The RIGHT HAND TURN from Main onto Houston?

both are not in the film yet there could not be a right hand turn from Elm to Houston.. right?

Your correct David, i admit i scanned it quick and missed that, i cannot say who originally posted it, there was no name attached, i think it was one in the articles thread at Rich's but may not have been, i do not have a copy of the magazine, darn, perhaps someone out there does, i believe jack had them but he has donated all his, i may take a look through penns, and see what comes up...thanks for pointing out the error......and making the correction,a good eye...take care..best b

Edited January 26, 2012 by Bernice Moore

[Bernice Moore]

"Simmons said he thought it was the motorcycle cop at the left front of the limo who got in the way, and

made it appear he was trying to find out what was going on...."

This seems to support Greer's comment that he "should have swerved " What else would have caused Greer to want to swerve? Would this seem to confirm that the limo stopped?

Hi Ray; The SS in training, were to begin swerving in a zig zag motion in any motorcade at the first sign of trouble, as it made it more difficult for any potential assassin to take a direct aim, at the POTUS..according to his rule book, at the first sound he should have been swerving to divert such.....info is within the studies of Vince Palamara i believe within the hsca commission findings...thanks b..

Ray; you may be interested in the following information; b...

Mr. Roberts was the SAIC of the follow-up car who attempted, along with Ready, to defend his strange actions and inactions by noting the speed of the limousine, which was actually decelerating from an already slow speed of 11.2 miles per hour, not the "15-20" or 20-25" mph noted in Ready & Robert's reports, as well as the distance between his car and the limousine, which was merely a scant five feet at the most when the shooting began, not the "20 - 25 " & "25-30" feet noted in their reports. (Even Inspector Thomas Kelley got into the act, later testifying: "The agents, of course, in the follow-up car were some distance away from the action.") If that wasn't enough, Ready's first report stated the follow-up car slowed. His next report stated it was JFK's limo that slowed instead (actually, both vehicles slowed down).

Regarding Roberts' disturbing order not to move, agent Sam Kinney, the driver of the follow-up car, told me that this was "exactly right." SA Ready was the agent who was assigned to JFK's side of the limousine, as you were assigned to Jackie's side. Roberts came to Ready's rescue in yet another report: "SA Ready would have done the same thing [as Agent Hill did] if motorcycle was not at President's corner of car"(!) Strange, but this posed no problem at all for Agent Donald J. Lawton on November 18, 1963, in Tampa (but unfortunately, like Agent Henry Rybka, Lawton was left at Love Field and was not in the motorcade detail). Even Chief Rowley got in on the act---he told the Warren Commission: "Mr. Hill, who was on the left side, responded immediately--as he looked toward the Presidential car, being on the left side, he scanned from left to right, and when he saw there was something happening to the President following a noise, he immediately jumped from his position to get aboard from his side. Mr. Ready scanned to the right so he was looking away from the President, because he was looking around from the right side. As a consequence, he wasn't aware of what was happening in the front. The car was also going on a turn at that time [emphasis added]." The car was actually heading straight to the overpass at the time.

If that weren't enough, as I discovered back in 1991 when viewing slow motion black and white video footage of the Love Field departure, one can see agent Henry J. Rybka jogging to the rear of the limousine on JFK's side only to be recalled by none other than Emory P. Roberts, who rises in his seat in the follow-up car and, using his voice and several hand-gestures, orders Rybka to cease and desist ! As the ARRB's Doug Horne wrote in a memo dated 4/16/96, based on viewing the aforementioned video shown during my presentation at a 1995 research conference (later to be shown during my brief appearance on the History Channel in 2003): "The bafflement of the agent who is twice waved off of the limousine is clearly evident. This unambiguous and clearly observed behavior would seem to be corroboration that the change in security procedure which was passed to SA Clint Hill earlier in the week by ASAIC Floyd Boring of the Secret Service White House Detail was very recent, ran contrary to standing procedure, and that not everyone on the White House Detail involved in Presidential protection had been informed of this change." (With regard to the Love Field video, former agent Larry Newman told me that he "never saw that before" and, when questioned on the matter, said he didn't know all the particulars and that Tim McIntyre would be a good source on this. To date, I have been unable to obtain commentary from McIntyre---or Ready, or Landis---on this matter.)

All of this begs the question: were Rybka and Lawton the two agents who were supposed to have rode on the rear of the limousine in Dallas?

It appears that Mr. Hill---thankfully, for Mrs. Kennedy's sake---disobeyed Mr. Roberts by running after the limousine during the shooting. Just as important, Mr. Hill disobeyed Mr. Boring's orders by mounting the rear of the limousine four times briefly prior to the shooting on 11/22/63. Interestingly, Agent Boring just happened to be in charge of planning the Texas trip for the Secret Service! For his part, #3 man Roy Kellerman indicated to the Warren Commission that on 11/17/63 he was given the assignment to be the nominal agent in charge of the Dallas trip.

Finally, William R. Greer, the driver of the limousine---Ken O'Donnell stated: "Greer had been remorseful all day, feeling that he could have saved President Kennedy's life by swerving the car or speeding suddenly after the first shots." In addition, Greer told Jackie the following on 11/22/63 at Parkland Hospital, shortly after the murder: "Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, oh my God, oh my God. I didn't mean to do it, I didn't hear, I should have swerved the car, I couldn't help it. Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, as soon as I saw it I swerved. If only I'd seen it in time! Oh!" Finally, Dave Powers confirmed Greer's guilt to CBS newsman Charles Kuralt on 11/22/88, also adding that if Greer would have sped up before the fatal headshot, JFK might still be alive today.

60 witnesses (10 police officers, 7 Secret Service agents, 38 spectators, 2 Presidential aides, 1 Senator, Governor Connally, and Jackie Kennedy) and the Zapruder film document Secret Service agent William R. Greer's deceleration of the presidential limousine, as well as his two separate looks back at JFK during the assassination (Greer denied all of this to the Warren Commission). By decelerating from an already slow 11.2 mph, Greer greatly endangered the President's life, and, as even author Gerald Posner admitted, Greer contributed greatly to the success of the assassination. When we consider that Greer disobeyed a direct order from his superior, Roy Kellerman, to get out of line BEFORE the fatal shot struck the President's head, it is hard to give Agent Greer the benefit of the doubt. As ASAIC Roy H. Kellerman said: "Greer then looked in the back of the car. Maybe he didn't believe me." Clearly, Greer was responsible, at fault, and felt remorse. In short, Greer had survivor's guilt.

A sampling of the sixty witnesses to Greer's gross negligence:

Houston Chronicle Reporter Bo Byers (rode in White House Press Bus) - Twice stated that the Presidential Limousine "almost came to a stop, a dead stop"; in fact, he has had nightmares about this.

Dallas Police Department (DPD) officer Earle Brown - "…The first I noticed the [JFK's] car was when it stopped...after it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped."

DPD motorcycle officer Bobby Hargis (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists)---"…At that time [immediately before the head shot] the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say 'Get going.' I felt blood hit me in the face and the Presidential car stopped almost immediately after that."

Secret Service Agent John Ready (follow-up car) - "…I heard what sounded like fire crackers going off from my post on the right front running board. The President's car slowed…"

Texas Governor John Connally (rode in JFK's limo and was himself a victim of the shooting) - "…After the third shot, I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, 'Bill, get out of line.' And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said 'Get us to a hospital quick'…at about this time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of line."

Dallas Morning News reporter Robert Baskin (rode in the National Press Pool Car) – stated: "…the motorcade ground to a halt."

Dallas Morning News reporter Mary Woodward (Pillsworth) - "…Instead of speeding up the car, the car came to a halt." She saw the President's car come to a halt after the first shot. Then, after hearing two more shots, close together, the car sped up. She spoke forcefully about the car almost coming to a stop and the lack of proper reaction by the Secret Service in 1993.

Alan Smith - "…the car was ten feet from me when a bullet hit the President in the forehead…the car went about five feet and stopped."

Ochus V. Campbell - after hearing shots, "he then observed the car bearing President Kennedy to slow down, a near stop, and a motorcycle policeman rushed up. Immediately following this, he observed the car rush away from the scene."

Peggy Joyce Hawkins - she was on the front steps of the TSBD and "…estimated that the President's car was less than 50 feet away from her when he was shot, that the car slowed down almost coming to a full stop."

First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy (rode in the Presidential limousine) - "We could see a tunnel in front of us. Everything was really slow then…[immediately after shooting] And just being down in the car with his head in my lap. And it just seemed an eternity…And finally I remember a voice behind me, or something, and then I remember the people in the front seat, or somebody, finally knew something was wrong, and a voice yelling, which must have been Mr. Hill, "Get to the hospital," or maybe it was Mr. Kellerman, in the front seat…We were really slowing turning the corner [Houston & Elm]…I remember a sensation of enormous speed, which must have been when we took off…those poor men in the front…" Mary Gallagher reported in her book: "She mentioned one Secret Service man who had not acted during the crucial moment, and said bitterly to me, 'He might just as well have been Miss Shaw!'" Jackie also told Gallagher: "You should get yourself a good driver so that nothing ever happens to you." Manchester wrote: "[Mrs. Kennedy] had heard Kellerman on the radio and had wondered why it had taken the car so long to leave." Former agent Marty Venker and C. David Heymann, among others, confirm in their books that Jackie felt Greer was responsible.

The sequence is crucial:

1.First shot (or shots) rings out - the car slows with brake lights on.

2.Greer turns around once.

3.Kellerman orders Greer to "get out of line; we've been hit!

4.Greer disobeys his superior's order and turns around to stare at JFK for the second time, until after the fatal headshot finds its mark!

As stated before, Greer was responsible, at fault, and felt remorse. In short, Greer had survivor's guilt.

But, then, stories and feelings changed.

Agent Greer to the FBI 11/22/63: "Greer stated that he first heard what he thought was possibly a motorcycle backfire and glanced around and noticed that the President had evidently been hit [notice that, early on, Greer admits seeing JFK, which the Zapruder proves he did two times before the fatal head shot occurred]. He thereafter got on the radio and communicated with the other vehicles, stating that they desired to get the President to the hospital immediately [in reality, Greer did not talk on the radio, and Greer went on to deny ever saying this during his Warren Commission testimony]…Greer stated that they (the Secret Service) have always been instructed to keep the motorcade moving at a considerable speed inasmuch as a moving car offers a much more difficult target than a vehicle traveling at a very slow speed. He pointed out that on numerous occasions he has attempted to keep the car moving at a rather fast rate, but in view of the President's popularity and desire to maintain close liaison with the people, he has, on occasion, been instructed by the President to "slow down". Greer stated that he has been asking himself if there was any thing he could have done to avoid this incident, but stated that things happened so fast that he could not account for full developments in this matter (!) [The "JFK-as-scapegoat" theme…and so much for Greer's remorse from earlier the same day]."

Agent Greer to the FBI 11/27/63: "…he heard a noise which sounded like a motorcycle backfire. On hearing this noise he glanced to his right toward Kellerman and out of the corner of his eye noticed that the Governor appeared to be falling toward his wife [notice that Greer now mentions nothing about seeing JFK hit---he does the same thing in his undated report in the Warren Commission volumes] He thereafter recalls hearing some type of outcry after which Kellerman said, "Let's get out of here." He further related that at the time of hearing the sound he was starting down an incline which passes beneath a railroad crossing and after passing under this viaduct, he closed in on the lead car and yelled to the occupants and a nearby police motorcyclist, "Hospital, Hospital! [Nothing about using the radio this time out]" Thereafter follows a complete physical description of Greer, as if the FBI agents considered him a suspect, including age, height, and color of eyes!

--------------------------------------------

So, if ASAIC Boring didn't convey those "wishes" (no agents on the rear of limo, handicapping you to have to sprint forward from another moving vehicle), if ATSAIC Roberts wouldn't have recalled Rybka & Ready and behaved so lackadaisically, and if Greer would have obeyed Kellerman and stepped on the gas, history WOULD have been different. THEY bear the burden. You behaved very admirably, especially under the circumstances.

I would appreciate any/ all comments you would like to make regarding this lengthy commentary.

Sincerely,

Vince Palamara

Carnegie, PA 15106

Ray; Vince has made a correction re his Rybka info at Love Field, you may want to visit his site to read his latest on him..

Edited January 26, 2012 by Bernice Moore

[Bernice Moore]

Bernice Moore -- thanks for posting the info on Orville Nix. However I'm asking about a more narrow point: Nix saying the his film was not the same as the original and "some films maybe missing, some, uh, frames, the, some of the frames were ruined".

Since the possibility of Zapruder film alteration seems not to have been a topic of first generation investigation, I find it especially interesting that Lane was taking a poke at Nix film alteration in the mid '60s. The "Rush to Judgement" film clip suggests to me that Nix had more on his mind than he was willing to state on film. Is there record of Nix expanding on the point elsewhere? Has Lane ever detailed what prompted his questions?

Daniel; I think, not positive but it seems to me, that there is an article re his grandaughter where further information was released, there is something out there, you may have a search into Mary Farrells , it may exist within.....also keep in mind findings of Sprague. it's a possible he could have been onto this earlier than others......if i come across anything further i will post the info, for you..take care...b

[Bernice Moore]

I did not find Chaney's name but; James L Simmons RR man on the overpass ..Re his testimony at the Clay Shaw trial..Garrison.

Upon being questioned by the defense that the President had fallen to the back as the limo lurched forward.

But as seen in the Zappy film he is propelled to the rear by the force of the head shot...then.....the

Asst D.A Alvin Osner asked : Did the car speed up ?

Simmons : No, in fact the car stopped or almost stopped.

Osner : Then did the car speed up ?

Simmons: Yes, after they got the motorcycle policeman out of the way...

It went right over the Asst.D.As.... head it went no further....

b.

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Anthony, I could not have put it better myself! Great to see others are catching on!

Sign me up as one to say, "What the hell are you talking about Mr. Thompson?!"

[Josiah Thompson]

The succinctness and precision with which you sink this claim is just a breath of fresh air in a cloud of language. And you were modest and right to also praise Robin with "Robin, your clips and pics say it all." Is there really anything left to talk about with respect to this claim? It looks to me to be as dead as "Moorman-in-the-Street." Nice going!

JT

Due to multiple posts being 'lost' between 5:25~11:25 A.M. 24/01/2012, this post has been re-submitted 26/01/2012 2:32 A.M. GMT

My responses to Prof. Fetzer, in red.

Sure--and for every other important aspect of the case, we can EXCLUDE the best witnesses to those events! Pretty soon, we will discover that what was actually going on was a circus parade--except we will have to EXCLUDE the witnesses to those events, too! In this case, the witness list is simply unimpeachable, since it includes persons who may well have been involved themselves!

The way I see it, is there is no 'best' witnesses to your version of events, other than the lead car occupants. There is not one person watching the motorcade who states that a bike passed the limo before the underpass. No matter how you slice it. Quoting witnesses and then saying that these were the guys who may have been involved, works both ways. Why would you assume Curry, Lawson, and Sorrells were truthful?

Why would Secret Service agents, motorcycle patrolmen, and the Chief of Police have been wrong about this? There is no good reason to suppose they would have been. Next you will ask me to prove what Clint Hill has reported saying over the past nearly 50 years--but EXCLUDING CLINT HILL! Too much was going on. There is no reason to suppose everyone there noticed everything.

In regards to Chaney, I've got every reason to suspect everyone there noticed nothing.

They would have been wrong if the chain of events made them look inadequate, or negligent, or just plain slow, in their actions. This is why Sorrells says he was worried about the limo passing, that he knew they should have been in front. Unfortunately, the limo did pass them (Daniels, McIntyre). This is stated by Lawson in his testimony :

Mr. Lawson.

"When the Presidential car leaped ahead" (emphasis mine), although there was quite a distance, not quite a distance but there was some distance between the two cars, they came up on us quite fast before we were actually able to get in motion. They seemed to have a more rapid acceleration than we did.

Mr. Dulles.

Did they actually pass you?

Mr. Lawson.

No, sir; they never did. We stayed ahead of them.

Daniels and McIntyre show Lawson, still under oath, was 'economical' with the truth. Lead car occupants playing CYA.

Anyone who is serious about getting to the truth of these matters has to take to heart what Clint Hill has been telling us for nearly 50 years now. Not only is there unimpeachable testimony of Officer Chaney motoring forward, but Clint Hill's testimony confirms it. That Tink and now Calli SHOULD BE IN SOME STATE OF DENIAL ABOUT ALL OF THIS is utterly beyond belief!

There is NO 'unimpeachable testimony' that unequivocally states Chaney passed the limo before the underpass. What Clint Hill has to say about the wound(s), has nothing to do with the Chaney issue. Interestingly, neither himself (Hill), Greer, Kellerman, or any of Halfbacks agents mention a bike pulling forwards either. The 'unimpeachable testimony' you keep citing, is vague, almost to the point of being cryptic.

"As I approached the vehicle there was a third shot. It hit the President in the head, upper right rear of the right ear, caused a gaping hole in his head, which caused brain matter, blood, and bone fragments to spew forth out over the car, over myself. At that point Mrs. Kennedy came up out of the back seat onto the trunk of the car. She was trying to retrieve something that had gone off to the right rear. She did not know I was there. At that point I grabbed Mrs. Kennedy, put her in the back seat. The President fell over into her lap, to his left.

"His right side of his head was exposed. I could see his eyes were fixed. There was a hole in the upper right rear portion of his head about the size of my palm. Most of the gray matter in that area had been removed, and was scattered throughout the entire car, including on Mrs. Kennedy. I turned and gave the follow-up car crew the thumbs-down, indicating that we were in a very dire situation. The driver accelerated; he got up to the lead car which was driven by Chief Curry, the Dallas Chief of Police . . .”.

No mention of motorcycle.

Not only does Clint's description of the wound contradict your characterization, but his account is consistent with what Bobby Hargis, Forrest Sorrels, and Chief Jesse Curry have told us about about Chaney, which refutes the film's authenticity.

My characterisation of what? I'm not talking about Clint Hill, or what he proclaimed to see of the President's wounds, Jim. Curry is vague. Sorrells, imo, is misremembering, or covering his ass.

Tink has repeatedly claimed this happened AFTER the limo had already passed the TUP and that we have simply not been thinking about the temporal relationship here. My three favorites are Bobby Hargis, Forrest Sorrels, and Chief Jesse Curry:

(1) Forrest Sorrels: "A motorcycle pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled ‘Is anybody hurt?’, to which the officer replied in the affirmative, and Chief Curry immediately broadcast to surround the building. By that time we had gotten just about under the underpass when the President’s car pulled up alongside, . . ."

See above reply.

(2) Bobby Hargis: "I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he [the President] was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off . . . .”

Unless Hargis actually stopped to talk to Chaney, how does he know what Chaney is going to do, or say? Recall the statement of DPD motorcyclist Jackson, whose passage I posted previously. Jackson wrote his account of what happened the night of the 22nd, specifically for the reason that he did not want his recollections muddied by the passing of time. It is, in essence, a first day report. Jackson states that he spoke to Chaney 'Let's go after them'

Meaning : The limo has gone, we better go after them'. Hence Hargis stating he watched Chaney slam his bike into first gear, then motor off. Why would Chaney need to slam his bike into first gear, if he was already gone?

(3) Chief Jesse Curry: "at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President’s caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there . . ."

Vague. The 'speeding up' is the limo now catching, and soon to pass, Curry's car. The 'about this time' is a generalisation with no specific location given.

How is that unimpeachable proof? They were tring to play CYA because they were caught napping!

James Chaney, Bobby Hargis, and Clint Hill WERE NOT OCCUPANTS OF THE LEAD CAR, in case you have not noticed. And citing other alleged reports and later interviews, whose authenticity is open to question, is not a very persuasive way to argue your case. In fact, such a case as you are attempting to contrive appears to be superfluous. WE ALREADY HAVE SUFFICIENT PROOF AT HAND.

I had noticed, I wasn't under the impression they were lead car occupants. I am aware that their recall of events is being twisted to suit your theory though. I was hoping for witnesses like Altgens, Moorman, Hill, anyone on the overpass, etc. You are cherry picking witnesses who are favourable to your outcome. Whilst i'm trying to find corroborating evidence for all of this, i'm coming up short. I'm trying to be impartial, believe it or not, but the evidence is against this happening as you posit.

Others can address your questions about how the films and photos were faked or altered, but the agency certainly has the ability to do that, where most of the evidence in this case has been fabricated. Since Chief Curry called for the building to be "surrounded" when Chaney told him JFK had been shot, which he did at the TUP, there really is NO POINT in fantasizing about the entrance to the freeway.

Understood, i'll await their input. I'm not denying the 'agency' (whoever that refers to, CIA?) have the ability to alter photographs. They would have needed a time machine for Daniels and McIntyre though.....

If this isn't enough proof for you on this point, I can't imagine what it would take to convince you. Since only Tom Robinson and Ed Reed watched Humes take a cranial saw to JFK's head, I suppose you want me to prove that but EXCLUDING TOM ROBINSON AND ED REED? And then it will be the limo stop but EXCLUDING ALL THE LIMO STOP WITNESSES? How dumb are we supposed to be?

No, it's not enough proof for me. Nothing will convince me Jim, because I know for a fact you are wrong. How many of your 'limo stop' witnesses can claim Chaney 'motoring forwards'? I don't want you to prove anything, Jim. I'll just shut up and take your word for it, shall I?

We are doing what we can to solve the case and you are doing something else. But the fact that someone like you has shown up tells me that we are making progress and that Tink has been outgunned. So they needed to send in the cavalry, which is why you are here. We all have better things to do, however, than to construct proofs WITHOUT THE MOST IMPORTANT EVIDENCE THAT PROVES THEM.

The fact that I have 'shown up' here, should tell you that it is going to take a bit more than your blatant misinterpretation of events to pass as fact.

Thanks.

Calli.

P.S. Robin, your clips and pics say it all......

[David G. Healy]

The succinctness and precision with which you sink this claim is just a breath of fresh air in a cloud of language. And you were modest and right to also praise Robin with "Robin, your clips and pics say it all." Is there really anything left to talk about with respect to this claim? It looks to me to be as dead as "Moorman-in-the-Street." Nice going!

JT

Due to multiple posts being 'lost' between 5:25~11:25 A.M. 24/01/2012, this post has been re-submitted 26/01/2012 2:32 A.M. GMT

My responses to Prof. Fetzer, in red.

Sure--and for every other important aspect of the case, we can EXCLUDE the best witnesses to those events! Pretty soon, we will discover that what was actually going on was a circus parade--except we will have to EXCLUDE the witnesses to those events, too! In this case, the witness list is simply unimpeachable, since it includes persons who may well have been involved themselves!

The way I see it, is there is no 'best' witnesses to your version of events, other than the lead car occupants. There is not one person watching the motorcade who states that a bike passed the limo before the underpass. No matter how you slice it. Quoting witnesses and then saying that these were the guys who may have been involved, works both ways. Why would you assume Curry, Lawson, and Sorrells were truthful?

Why would Secret Service agents, motorcycle patrolmen, and the Chief of Police have been wrong about this? There is no good reason to suppose they would have been. Next you will ask me to prove what Clint Hill has reported saying over the past nearly 50 years--but EXCLUDING CLINT HILL! Too much was going on. There is no reason to suppose everyone there noticed everything.

In regards to Chaney, I've got every reason to suspect everyone there noticed nothing.

They would have been wrong if the chain of events made them look inadequate, or negligent, or just plain slow, in their actions. This is why Sorrells says he was worried about the limo passing, that he knew they should have been in front. Unfortunately, the limo did pass them (Daniels, McIntyre). This is stated by Lawson in his testimony :

Mr. Lawson.

"When the Presidential car leaped ahead" (emphasis mine), although there was quite a distance, not quite a distance but there was some distance between the two cars, they came up on us quite fast before we were actually able to get in motion. They seemed to have a more rapid acceleration than we did.

Mr. Dulles.

Did they actually pass you?

Mr. Lawson.

No, sir; they never did. We stayed ahead of them.

Daniels and McIntyre show Lawson, still under oath, was 'economical' with the truth. Lead car occupants playing CYA.

Anyone who is serious about getting to the truth of these matters has to take to heart what Clint Hill has been telling us for nearly 50 years now. Not only is there unimpeachable testimony of Officer Chaney motoring forward, but Clint Hill's testimony confirms it. That Tink and now Calli SHOULD BE IN SOME STATE OF DENIAL ABOUT ALL OF THIS is utterly beyond belief!

There is NO 'unimpeachable testimony' that unequivocally states Chaney passed the limo before the underpass. What Clint Hill has to say about the wound(s), has nothing to do with the Chaney issue. Interestingly, neither himself (Hill), Greer, Kellerman, or any of Halfbacks agents mention a bike pulling forwards either. The 'unimpeachable testimony' you keep citing, is vague, almost to the point of being cryptic.

"As I approached the vehicle there was a third shot. It hit the President in the head, upper right rear of the right ear, caused a gaping hole in his head, which caused brain matter, blood, and bone fragments to spew forth out over the car, over myself. At that point Mrs. Kennedy came up out of the back seat onto the trunk of the car. She was trying to retrieve something that had gone off to the right rear. She did not know I was there. At that point I grabbed Mrs. Kennedy, put her in the back seat. The President fell over into her lap, to his left.

"His right side of his head was exposed. I could see his eyes were fixed. There was a hole in the upper right rear portion of his head about the size of my palm. Most of the gray matter in that area had been removed, and was scattered throughout the entire car, including on Mrs. Kennedy. I turned and gave the follow-up car crew the thumbs-down, indicating that we were in a very dire situation. The driver accelerated; he got up to the lead car which was driven by Chief Curry, the Dallas Chief of Police . . .”.

No mention of motorcycle.

Not only does Clint's description of the wound contradict your characterization, but his account is consistent with what Bobby Hargis, Forrest Sorrels, and Chief Jesse Curry have told us about about Chaney, which refutes the film's authenticity.

My characterisation of what? I'm not talking about Clint Hill, or what he proclaimed to see of the President's wounds, Jim. Curry is vague. Sorrells, imo, is misremembering, or covering his ass.

Tink has repeatedly claimed this happened AFTER the limo had already passed the TUP and that we have simply not been thinking about the temporal relationship here. My three favorites are Bobby Hargis, Forrest Sorrels, and Chief Jesse Curry:

(1) Forrest Sorrels: "A motorcycle pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled ‘Is anybody hurt?’, to which the officer replied in the affirmative, and Chief Curry immediately broadcast to surround the building. By that time we had gotten just about under the underpass when the President’s car pulled up alongside, . . ."

See above reply.

(2) Bobby Hargis: "I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he [the President] was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off . . . .”

Unless Hargis actually stopped to talk to Chaney, how does he know what Chaney is going to do, or say? Recall the statement of DPD motorcyclist Jackson, whose passage I posted previously. Jackson wrote his account of what happened the night of the 22nd, specifically for the reason that he did not want his recollections muddied by the passing of time. It is, in essence, a first day report. Jackson states that he spoke to Chaney 'Let's go after them'

Meaning : The limo has gone, we better go after them'. Hence Hargis stating he watched Chaney slam his bike into first gear, then motor off. Why would Chaney need to slam his bike into first gear, if he was already gone?

(3) Chief Jesse Curry: "at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President’s caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there . . ."

Vague. The 'speeding up' is the limo now catching, and soon to pass, Curry's car. The 'about this time' is a generalisation with no specific location given.

How is that unimpeachable proof? They were tring to play CYA because they were caught napping!

James Chaney, Bobby Hargis, and Clint Hill WERE NOT OCCUPANTS OF THE LEAD CAR, in case you have not noticed. And citing other alleged reports and later interviews, whose authenticity is open to question, is not a very persuasive way to argue your case. In fact, such a case as you are attempting to contrive appears to be superfluous. WE ALREADY HAVE SUFFICIENT PROOF AT HAND.

I had noticed, I wasn't under the impression they were lead car occupants. I am aware that their recall of events is being twisted to suit your theory though. I was hoping for witnesses like Altgens, Moorman, Hill, anyone on the overpass, etc. You are cherry picking witnesses who are favourable to your outcome. Whilst i'm trying to find corroborating evidence for all of this, i'm coming up short. I'm trying to be impartial, believe it or not, but the evidence is against this happening as you posit.

Others can address your questions about how the films and photos were faked or altered, but the agency certainly has the ability to do that, where most of the evidence in this case has been fabricated. Since Chief Curry called for the building to be "surrounded" when Chaney told him JFK had been shot, which he did at the TUP, there really is NO POINT in fantasizing about the entrance to the freeway.

Understood, i'll await their input. I'm not denying the 'agency' (whoever that refers to, CIA?) have the ability to alter photographs. They would have needed a time machine for Daniels and McIntyre though.....

If this isn't enough proof for you on this point, I can't imagine what it would take to convince you. Since only Tom Robinson and Ed Reed watched Humes take a cranial saw to JFK's head, I suppose you want me to prove that but EXCLUDING TOM ROBINSON AND ED REED? And then it will be the limo stop but EXCLUDING ALL THE LIMO STOP WITNESSES? How dumb are we supposed to be?

No, it's not enough proof for me. Nothing will convince me Jim, because I know for a fact you are wrong. How many of your 'limo stop' witnesses can claim Chaney 'motoring forwards'? I don't want you to prove anything, Jim. I'll just shut up and take your word for it, shall I?

We are doing what we can to solve the case and you are doing something else. But the fact that someone like you has shown up tells me that we are making progress and that Tink has been outgunned. So they needed to send in the cavalry, which is why you are here. We all have better things to do, however, than to construct proofs WITHOUT THE MOST IMPORTANT EVIDENCE THAT PROVES THEM.

The fact that I have 'shown up' here, should tell you that it is going to take a bit more than your blatant misinterpretation of events to pass as fact.

Thanks.

Calli.

P.S. Robin, your clips and pics say it all......

When this dog & pony show is over can you please get back Zapruder filmframe alteration which may prove a shot from the front, please?

I doubt Calli here being hailed as the 2nd coming of lone nutterism and the LHO did it all by his lonesome crowd is gonna help the true preservers of Dealey Plaza Zapruder film record... Time to move on and deal with what's in front of us. A possible matte on the back of JFK's head!

[Craig Lamson]

A possible matte on the back of JFK's head!

Or just a garden variety shadow.....