Bernice Moore Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 (edited) David i found this interesting after a reread ,from a 2007 post i made at Rich's FWIW..Note Simmon, says motorcycle on the left front...b bit more to add...I did not find Chaney's name...?? but .. James L Simmons RR man on the overpass ..Re his testimony at the Clay Shaw trial..Garrison. Upon being questioned by the defense that the President had fallen to the back as the limo lurched forward. But as seen in the Zappy film he is propelled to the rear by the force of the head shot...then.....the Asst D.A Alvin Osner asked : Did the car speed up ? Simmons : No, in fact the car stopped or almost stopped. Osner : Then did the car speed up ? Simmons: Yes, after they got the motorcycle policeman out of the way... It went right over the Asst.D.As.... head it went no further.... There were a total of 8 motorcycles ..in front of the President....3 abreast were some distance ahead. a second line of five were a half a bock ahead..Some of these had orders to stop at the underpass and hold the traffic while the motorcade proceeded to the Stemmons Freeway..on to the Trade Mart.. The names of these officers and numbers are in the WC Vol. XX, page 489.. The three out front were Sgt.S.C Bellah---190, J.B.Garrick---132 G.C.McBride---133 ( The last I believe was Jean Hills boyfriend, that Mary Moorman took a photo of that day.?) The five only being a half a block ahead were , L.E.Gray---156 E.D.Brewer---137 W.G.Lumpkin---152 H.R.Freeman---135 The five of the eight were instructed to fall to the rear at the underpass, and cover the limo from the rear to the Trade Mart. Only 3 were spoken to...at the time and they all repeated the same information.. " We have been instructed not to talk about it at all". Simmons said he thought it was the motorcycle cop at the left front of the limo who got in the way, and made it appear he was trying to find out what was going on.... In Jean Hills book, her motorcycle policeman boyfriend, and I think it was B.J.Martin, if so, he also kept telling her to let it go, and not get involved, and that he could not say anything, that things at the station were very hushed. BTW: The info comes originally from Penn Jones " Forgive My Grief 111" http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/simmons_j.htm For a comparison for anyone interested, read how the FBI Reported his information also at the site.... http://jfkassassination.net/russ/exhibits/ce1416.htm All witnesses: http://jfkassassination.net/russ/wit.htm Edited March 16, 2013 by Bernice Moore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Gallup Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Asst D.A Alvin Osner asked : Did the car speed up ? Simmons : No, in fact the car stopped or almost stopped. Thank you Bernice. The issue that won't go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 (edited) Asst D.A Alvin Osner asked : Did the car speed up ? Simmons : No, in fact the car stopped or almost stopped. Thank you Bernice. The issue that won't go away. Hi Daniel; pleased somthing came out of this, and no, the issue will not go away, as the further the information is looked into, the more often that the limo stopped comes to light by many more...it appears there is always one more witnesses information coming to light that it did stop..and Simmons does mention a motorcyclist coming forward,and getting out of the way... which others have also, so just another.another...thanks..b Edited March 17, 2013 by Bernice Moore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Gallup Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Asst D.A Alvin Osner asked : Did the car speed up ? Simmons : No, in fact the car stopped or almost stopped. Thank you Bernice. The issue that won't go away. Hi Daniel; pleased somthing came out of this, and no, the issue will not go away, as the further the information is looked into, the more often that the limo stopped comes to light by many more...it appears there is always one more witnesses information coming to light that it did stop..and Simmons does mention a motorcyclist coming forward,and getting out of the way... which others have also, so just another.another...thanks..b Which is why I am grieved to see Lancer devote the 50th, or a major part of it, to the authenticity of the Z-film, through Rollie Zavada. Here on this thread you see the complete lack of convergence of the evidence on what happened, all thanks to the support this piece of major deception receives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Harris Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 (edited) Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, when the flurry occurred then, were you still facing forward talking into the microphone to Lawson? Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson? Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back. Mr. SPECTER. To your right this time--to your left; pardon me. Mr. KELLERMAN. To my left; that is right. This is when I first viewed Mr. Hill, who was on the back of the-- Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where was he in that instant? Mr. KELLERMAN. Lying right across the trunk of the car with Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear, Mr. Hill's head was right up in back of her. Doesn't this suggest shots well after 313 since we KNOW Hill does not reach the limo until z340, and JAckie is not on the trunk until much later.. Kellerman was simply wrong, in his WC testimony. This is from his report on 11/22/1963. He clearly, grabbed the microphone after the shooting had ended and after he yelled at Greer. We were still traveling at the normal rate of speed of from 12 to 15 miles per hour when I heard a noise, similar to a firecracker, exploding in the area to the rear of the car, about 12:30 p.m. Immediately I heard what I firmly believe was the President's voice, "My God, I'm hit!" I turned around to find out what happened when two additional shots rang out, and the President slumped into Mrs. Kennedy's lap and Governor Connally fell_to Mrs. Connally's lap. I heard Mrs. Kennedy shout, "What are they doing to you?". I yelled at William Greer (the driver) to "Step on it, we're hit!" and grabbed the mike from the car radio, called to SA Lawson in the police lead car that we were hit and to get us to a hospital. And why are people claiming that the fact that the limo "almost" stopped, suggests forgery? Dr. Luis Alvarez confirmed the slowdown from about 14 mph to 8, solely on the basis of the Zapruder film. And finally, I would like to hear how this "forgery" took place. Did the perps hire a Hollywood crew, replete with actors, extras and props? Where did they find 8 footers to stand in the grass and a "dwarf", Mary Moorman:-) Where did they stage this production? It would have been tough to pull it off in DP, without being seen. Did they do the same to fabricate the Nix and Muchmore films?? Why can't some of you guys be a bit more specific about the details of this thing or at the very least, demonstrate that it was even possible? Edited March 17, 2013 by Robert Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Gallup Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, when the flurry occurred then, were you still facing forward talking into the microphone to Lawson? Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson? Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back. Mr. SPECTER. To your right this time--to your left; pardon me. Mr. KELLERMAN. To my left; that is right. This is when I first viewed Mr. Hill, who was on the back of the-- Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where was he in that instant? Mr. KELLERMAN. Lying right across the trunk of the car with Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear, Mr. Hill's head was right up in back of her. Doesn't this suggest shots well after 313 since we KNOW Hill does not reach the limo until z340, and JAckie is not on the trunk until much later.. Kellerman was simply wrong, in his WC testimony. This is from his report on 11/22/1963. He clearly, grabbed the microphone after the shooting had ended and after he yelled at Greer. We were still traveling at the normal rate of speed of from 12 to 15 miles per hour when I heard a noise, similar to a firecracker, exploding in the area to the rear of the car, about 12:30 p.m. Immediately I heard what I firmly believe was the President's voice, "My God, I'm hit!" I turned around to find out what happened when two additional shots rang out, and the President slumped into Mrs. Kennedy's lap and Governor Connally fell_to Mrs. Connally's lap. I heard Mrs. Kennedy shout, "What are they doing to you?". I yelled at William Greer (the driver) to "Step on it, we're hit!" and grabbed the mike from the car radio, called to SA Lawson in the police lead car that we were hit and to get us to a hospital. And why are people claiming that the fact that the limo "almost" stopped, suggests forgery? Dr. Luis Alvarez confirmed the slowdown from about 14 mph to 8, solely on the basis of the Zapruder film. And finally, I would like to hear how this "forgery" took place. Did the perps hire a Hollywood crew, replete with actors, extras and props? Where did they find 8 footers to stand in the grass and a "dwarf", Mary Moorman:-) Where did they stage this production? It would have been tough to pull it off in DP, without being seen. Did they do the same to fabricate the Nix and Muchmore films?? Why can't some of you guys be a bit more specific about the details of this thing or at the very least, demonstrate that it was even possible? 14 to 8 is not the same as stopped. As to how they did it, that is a good question. But that it was done is beyond doubt, at least to this reader. Additional Item: no ejecta leaves the back of Kennedy's head in the current film. For some reason, this has not bothered too many people. It bothers the hell out of me. Given the desciption of the wound at Parkland, the chief exiting point of blood and brains should have been the back to the head. The only explanantion I have been given was years ago by Bill Miller: the blood and brains exited the back of Kennedy's head too fast for the camera to pick up. Maybe Mr. Lamson would like to weigh in on that explanation. Then of course is darkening of the back of Kennedy's head, necessary to hide the Parkland wound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 (edited) Robert quote..''Did the perps hire a Hollywood crew, replete with actors, extras and props? Where did they find 8 footers to stand in the grass and a "dwarf", Mary Moorman:-) Where did they stage this production? It would have been tough to pull it off in DP, without being seen""...... As you are well aware, the man ''Jack'' who could have, would have had replies to the references you have expressed above, is no longer with us,therefore '' not available'', let the man rest in peace and imo stop making any snide remarks in reference to perhaps work he did look into at one time,some years back..as you are aware the work was not done by the rest of us, so do not be surprised if you do not get any answers your looking for, but i am sure no doubt, you can make them up ...your entitled to your opinion, so are others, your not going to change so why do you think others should.people are the way they are period....??.b..imo Edited March 17, 2013 by Bernice Moore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Harris Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, when the flurry occurred then, were you still facing forward talking into the microphone to Lawson? Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson? Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back. Mr. SPECTER. To your right this time--to your left; pardon me. Mr. KELLERMAN. To my left; that is right. This is when I first viewed Mr. Hill, who was on the back of the-- Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where was he in that instant? Mr. KELLERMAN. Lying right across the trunk of the car with Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear, Mr. Hill's head was right up in back of her. Doesn't this suggest shots well after 313 since we KNOW Hill does not reach the limo until z340, and JAckie is not on the trunk until much later.. Kellerman was simply wrong, in his WC testimony. This is from his report on 11/22/1963. He clearly, grabbed the microphone after the shooting had ended and after he yelled at Greer. We were still traveling at the normal rate of speed of from 12 to 15 miles per hour when I heard a noise, similar to a firecracker, exploding in the area to the rear of the car, about 12:30 p.m. Immediately I heard what I firmly believe was the President's voice, "My God, I'm hit!" I turned around to find out what happened when two additional shots rang out, and the President slumped into Mrs. Kennedy's lap and Governor Connally fell_to Mrs. Connally's lap. I heard Mrs. Kennedy shout, "What are they doing to you?". I yelled at William Greer (the driver) to "Step on it, we're hit!" and grabbed the mike from the car radio, called to SA Lawson in the police lead car that we were hit and to get us to a hospital. And why are people claiming that the fact that the limo "almost" stopped, suggests forgery? Dr. Luis Alvarez confirmed the slowdown from about 14 mph to 8, solely on the basis of the Zapruder film. And finally, I would like to hear how this "forgery" took place. Did the perps hire a Hollywood crew, replete with actors, extras and props? Where did they find 8 footers to stand in the grass and a "dwarf", Mary Moorman:-) Where did they stage this production? It would have been tough to pull it off in DP, without being seen. Did they do the same to fabricate the Nix and Muchmore films?? Why can't some of you guys be a bit more specific about the details of this thing or at the very least, demonstrate that it was even possible? 14 to 8 is not the same as stopped. As to how they did it, that is a good question. But that it was done is beyond doubt, at least to this reader. Additional Item: no ejecta leaves the back of Kennedy's head in the current film. For some reason, this has not bothered too many people. It bothers the hell out of me. Given the desciption of the wound at Parkland, the chief exiting point of blood and brains should have been the back to the head. The only explanantion I have been given was years ago by Bill Miller: the blood and brains exited the back of Kennedy's head too fast for the camera to pick up. Maybe Mr. Lamson would like to weigh in on that explanation. Then of course is darkening of the back of Kennedy's head, necessary to hide the Parkland wound. Yes, 8mph is not "stopped". That's because the limo didn't stop. It only slowed down, as the large majority of witnesses originally stated. And there was no damage to the BOH prior to the second headshot, because the shot at 313 came from the rear. The second headshot seems to have been inflicted at around 319. Jackie caught a glimpse of matter being ejected to the rear, which is why she got up and reached back to retrieve a piece of brain tissue. This was the result of that second headshot. And please don't try to tell me that the perps fabricated this very obvious proof of a shot from the front. As to why we don't see matter being ejected from the head, I can only urge you to do what I did and spend a grisly evening looking up videos of gunshots to the head. I think there is one at Speer's site and a few from old movies of executions. You just don't see much of anything being ejected in any of them, although there undoubtedly was. I would add that at the time of the apparent, second head shot, JFK was leaning sharply to his left and the large defect in the upper rear of the head was out of Zapruder's view. I made a number of video presentations about this; a few of the URL's are: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Cohen Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Robert quote..''Did the perps hire a Hollywood crew, replete with actors, extras and props? Where did they find 8 footers to stand in the grass and a "dwarf", Mary Moorman:-) Where did they stage this production? It would have been tough to pull it off in DP, without being seen""...... As you are well aware, the man ''Jack'' who could have, would have had replies to the references you have expressed above, is no longer with us,therefore '' not available'', let the man rest in peace and imo stop making any snide remarks in reference to perhaps work he did look into at one time,some years back..as you are aware the work was not done by the rest of us, so do not be surprised if you do not get any answers your looking for, but i am sure no doubt, you can make them up ...your entitled to your opinion, so are others, your not going to change so why do you think others should.people are the way they are period....??.b..imo Bernice, Not to take this thread off-topic, but Jack White consistently refused to offer any substantive, specific evidence as to how the assassination films could have been altered in the manner he said they had. Moreover, his experiment attempting to prove that Mary Moorman was standing in the street when she took her famous Polaroid has been shown to be completely incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Gallup Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, when the flurry occurred then, were you still facing forward talking into the microphone to Lawson? Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson? Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back. Mr. SPECTER. To your right this time--to your left; pardon me. Mr. KELLERMAN. To my left; that is right. This is when I first viewed Mr. Hill, who was on the back of the-- Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where was he in that instant? Mr. KELLERMAN. Lying right across the trunk of the car with Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear, Mr. Hill's head was right up in back of her. Doesn't this suggest shots well after 313 since we KNOW Hill does not reach the limo until z340, and JAckie is not on the trunk until much later.. Kellerman was simply wrong, in his WC testimony. This is from his report on 11/22/1963. He clearly, grabbed the microphone after the shooting had ended and after he yelled at Greer. We were still traveling at the normal rate of speed of from 12 to 15 miles per hour when I heard a noise, similar to a firecracker, exploding in the area to the rear of the car, about 12:30 p.m. Immediately I heard what I firmly believe was the President's voice, "My God, I'm hit!" I turned around to find out what happened when two additional shots rang out, and the President slumped into Mrs. Kennedy's lap and Governor Connally fell_to Mrs. Connally's lap. I heard Mrs. Kennedy shout, "What are they doing to you?". I yelled at William Greer (the driver) to "Step on it, we're hit!" and grabbed the mike from the car radio, called to SA Lawson in the police lead car that we were hit and to get us to a hospital. And why are people claiming that the fact that the limo "almost" stopped, suggests forgery? Dr. Luis Alvarez confirmed the slowdown from about 14 mph to 8, solely on the basis of the Zapruder film. And finally, I would like to hear how this "forgery" took place. Did the perps hire a Hollywood crew, replete with actors, extras and props? Where did they find 8 footers to stand in the grass and a "dwarf", Mary Moorman:-) Where did they stage this production? It would have been tough to pull it off in DP, without being seen. Did they do the same to fabricate the Nix and Muchmore films?? Why can't some of you guys be a bit more specific about the details of this thing or at the very least, demonstrate that it was even possible? 14 to 8 is not the same as stopped. As to how they did it, that is a good question. But that it was done is beyond doubt, at least to this reader. Additional Item: no ejecta leaves the back of Kennedy's head in the current film. For some reason, this has not bothered too many people. It bothers the hell out of me. Given the desciption of the wound at Parkland, the chief exiting point of blood and brains should have been the back to the head. The only explanantion I have been given was years ago by Bill Miller: the blood and brains exited the back of Kennedy's head too fast for the camera to pick up. Maybe Mr. Lamson would like to weigh in on that explanation. Then of course is darkening of the back of Kennedy's head, necessary to hide the Parkland wound. Yes, 8mph is not "stopped". That's because the limo didn't stop. It only slowed down, as the large majority of witnesses originally stated. And there was no damage to the BOH prior to the second headshot, because the shot at 313 came from the rear. The second headshot seems to have been inflicted at around 319. Jackie caught a glimpse of matter being ejected to the rear, which is why she got up and reached back to retrieve a piece of brain tissue. This was the result of that second headshot. And please don't try to tell me that the perps fabricated this very obvious proof of a shot from the front. As to why we don't see matter being ejected from the head, I can only urge you to do what I did and spend a grisly evening looking up videos of gunshots to the head. I think there is one at Speer's site and a few from old movies of executions. You just don't see much of anything being ejected in any of them, although there undoubtedly was. I would add that at the time of the apparent, second head shot, JFK was leaning sharply to his left and the large defect in the upper rear of the head was out of Zapruder's view. I made a number of video presentations about this; a few of the URL's are: The majority of witnesses originally said it slowed down? Presumably from 14 to 8 mph? That is news to me. If what you say is true, why does Sherry Feister (Sp) go to such absurd lengths to disavow the large number of limo stop witnesses in her latest book? As far as I can understand, she does not argue that the majority said the limo slowed, but that the majority suffered shock and mistook the slowing for a stopping. As for the ejecta not seen, sorry, I am not buying anything you say for a moment. The bones in the back of the head (and not the front) were sprung open and a large amount of tissue in the rear of the head was observed missing. See McClelland before the WC. So the bones were sprung open by the force of the blast, much of the rear cerebral and some cerebellar tissue was missing, but no brains and blood exited the rear (Itek confirms this--that the extant film shows no such ejecta). So where did the brain tissue from the back of Kennedy's head go? Please don't tell me out the front. Whoever altered the film had to remove that ejecta as it would have been an obvious indication of a shot from the front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Harris Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 The majority of witnesses originally said it slowed down? Presumably from 14 to 8 mph? That is news to me. If what you say is true, why does Sherry Feister (Sp) go to such absurd lengths to disavow the large number of limo stop witnesses in her latest book? As far as I can understand, she does not argue that the majority said the limo slowed, but that the majority suffered shock and mistook the slowing for a stopping. As for the ejecta not seen, sorry, I am not buying anything you say for a moment. The bones in the back of the head (and not the front) were sprung open and a large amount of tissue in the rear of the head was observed missing. See McClelland before the WC. So the bones were sprung open by the force of the blast, much of the rear cerebral and some cerebellar tissue was missing, but no brains and blood exited the rear (Itek confirms this--that the extant film shows no such ejecta). So where did the brain tissue from the back of Kennedy's head go? Please don't tell me out the front. Whoever altered the film had to remove that ejecta as it would have been an obvious indication of a shot from the front. I spent a lot of years studying those testimonies, and yes, far more originally stated that the limo slowed down, than said it came to a full stop, although some of those witnesses seem to have been talked into changing their stories, by various authors. Ms. Fiester recently posted in my forum and although she is certainly knowledgeable in her field, she is woefully lacking in general knowledge of the case. She is a big fan of Beverly Oliver, for example. The notion that witnesses were "shocked" and mistook slowing for stopping is just silly. She needs to actually read the WC testimonies and learn that she doesn't have to make up silly excuses like that. And I already answered your question about why there was no BOH damage at 313. Please actually read the post to which you just replied. Better yet, take the time to listen to a couple of the presentations. The image I posted of 337 is the real thing and it is immensely important to an understanding of what happened. But it is also important to realize that the damage extended further down that what we see in that frame. I cite Boswell explaining that in his ARRB testimony, in the second presentation I linked. He confirms that there was damage extending down into the occipital region. He also explains precisely why we see no BOH damage in some of the autopsy photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Daniel, here is matter being ejected from the back, seen in a Nix gif...b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kingsbury Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Daniel, here is matter being ejected from the back, seen in a Nix gif...b Bernice Nice gif I agree so does this chap!. http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/history/newton3laws.html Perhaps Dallas physics are different from all others?. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Hi Ian, hope all is very well....here is another fella a Mr Hargis, who just happened to get hit by flying matter though some do not agree with science apparently...thanks..b Testimony of Bobby W. Hargis on April 8, 1964 Mr. STERN - Will you describe what occurred or what you observed as the limousine turned into Elm Street? Mr. HARGIS - Well, at the time that the limousine turned left on Elm, I was staying pretty well right up with the car. Sometimes on Elm we get right up next to it on account of the crowd, but the crowd was out down here at the triple underpass, so, I was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was sitting directly in front of him, and a real shocked and surprised expression on his face. Mr. STERN - On Governor Connally's? Mr. HARGIS - Yes; that is why I thought Governor Connally had been shot first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up like that (indicating) the shot that killed him hit him. I don't know whether it was the second or the third shot. Everything happened so fast. Mr. STERN - But, you cannot now recall more than two shots? Mr. HARGIS - That is all that I can recall remembering. Of course, everything was moving so fast at the time that there could have been 30 more shots that I probably never would have noticed them. Mr. STERN - Did something happen to you, personally in connection with the shot you have Just described? Mr. HARGIS - You mean about the blood hitting--- Mr. STERN - Yes. Mr. HARGIS - Yes; when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of bloody water, It wasn't really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, "Get going," or "get going," Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Ian; Daniel; here is another oops...b Dallas Cop: "Limo slowed almost to a stop" - YouTube bobby hargis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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