Jump to content
The Education Forum

Kellerman's testimony helps prove Purvis/Fetzer


Recommended Posts

Tom,

I have to respectively disagree with your conclusion of 3 shots - 3 hits. Just like asking why the shooter does not shoot as JFK approaches...

the shot that kills him IS as he approaches... from the right front. in addition to the low neck entry shot from the rear you speak of...

I just believe there were more shots fired, in sync, as directed by radio.. as many as nine in fact (3 shooters firing 3 times ea)

and have to thank you for illuminating so many things for me.

A few posts up I saw the same thing and quote Hill saying a shot arrives as he arrives at the limo, very interesting.

DJ

Clint Hill/aka the "running & Rising man.

Might want to check out his first attempt at placement of a foot onto the rear bumper of the Presidential Limo and exactly how far he got with this attempt (as seen in the Z-film)

Thereafter, one just may want to compare the Z-film with the Nix film.

Tom

I've done that Tom... and it does look like there are a few missing steps.. his right foot just seems to glide down the street

1. Fragment from the Z313 jfk headshot to JBC's outstretched right arm.

2. The one and only true "magic"* bullet thereafter striking him in the right rear shoulder after he was laying over exposing his back and right shoulder between the open area of the jump seats.

*It went through JFK's head first, prior to exiting downward and striking JBC, and thereafter has done an excellent job of "disappearing'.

Tom

P.S. Certainly glad that I never believed much of anything that the WC had to say. Especially that "circle jerk" reasoning regarding "THE SHOT THAT MISSED"!

Now you say that JFK was hit by 3 shots... and that the headshot creates the wrist wound to JC... (and most likely the small hole in JFK's neck)

Aren't you missing the shot thru Connally's chest? The shot that hit the manhole cover area? The shot that caused dust and sparks to fly up just after the turn onto Elm?

The multitude of witnesses related to the GK area shot(s)? The Tague shot?

Point remains Tom... Kellerman and Hill describe a shot that occurs just as Hill is getting to the limo

Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.

Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail, when she noticed that I was trying to climb on the car. She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in the back seat, crawled up on top of the back seat and lay there.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring to Commission Exhibit No. 354, would you mark an "X", as best you can, at the spot where the President's automobile was at the time the first shot occurred?

Mr. HILL. Approximately there.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you mark a "Y" at the approximate position where the President's car was at the second shot you have described? What is your best estimate of the speed of the President's car at the precise time of the first shot, Mr. Hill?

This is absurd... he marks areas that are substantially UP the street when the zfilm puts him farther down the street and it is STILL not far enough down Elm to accurately describe the location...

Can you please state specifically why you do not believe JFK was hit from the front at all? My understanding was that the tests done showed no way for a bullet to hit at the rear of a head and not cause substantial damage to the face.... the photos do not match the xrays which do not match the witness descriptions...

Perfect :blink:

DJ

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 81
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Tom,

I have to respectively disagree with your conclusion of 3 shots - 3 hits. Just like asking why the shooter does not shoot as JFK approaches...

the shot that kills him IS as he approaches... from the right front. in addition to the low neck entry shot from the rear you speak of...

I just believe there were more shots fired, in sync, as directed by radio.. as many as nine in fact (3 shooters firing 3 times ea)

and have to thank you for illuminating so many things for me.

A few posts up I saw the same thing and quote Hill saying a shot arrives as he arrives at the limo, very interesting.

DJ

Clint Hill/aka the "running & Rising man.

Might want to check out his first attempt at placement of a foot onto the rear bumper of the Presidential Limo and exactly how far he got with this attempt (as seen in the Z-film)

Thereafter, one just may want to compare the Z-film with the Nix film.

Tom

I've done that Tom... and it does look like there are a few missing steps.. his right foot just seems to glide down the street

1. Fragment from the Z313 jfk headshot to JBC's outstretched right arm.

2. The one and only true "magic"* bullet thereafter striking him in the right rear shoulder after he was laying over exposing his back and right shoulder between the open area of the jump seats.

*It went through JFK's head first, prior to exiting downward and striking JBC, and thereafter has done an excellent job of "disappearing'.

Tom

P.S. Certainly glad that I never believed much of anything that the WC had to say. Especially that "circle jerk" reasoning regarding "THE SHOT THAT MISSED"!

Now you say that JFK was hit by 3 shots... and that the headshot creates the wrist wound to JC... (and most likely the small hole in JFK's neck)

Aren't you missing the shot thru Connally's chest? The shot that hit the manhole cover area? The shot that caused dust and sparks to fly up just after the turn onto Elm?

The multitude of witnesses related to the GK area shot(s)? The Tague shot?

Point remains Tom... Kellerman and Hill describe a shot that occurs just as Hill is getting to the limo

Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.

Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail, when she noticed that I was trying to climb on the car. She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in the back seat, crawled up on top of the back seat and lay there.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring to Commission Exhibit No. 354, would you mark an "X", as best you can, at the spot where the President's automobile was at the time the first shot occurred?

Mr. HILL. Approximately there.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you mark a "Y" at the approximate position where the President's car was at the second shot you have described? What is your best estimate of the speed of the President's car at the precise time of the first shot, Mr. Hill?

This is absurd... he marks areas that are substantially UP the street when the zfilm puts him farther down the street and it is STILL not far enough down Elm to accurately describe the location...

Can you please state specifically why you do not believe JFK was hit from the front at all? My understanding was that the tests done showed no way for a bullet to hit at the rear of a head and not cause substantial damage to the face.... the photos do not match the xrays which do not match the witness descriptions...

Perfect :blink:

DJ

and that the headshot creates the wrist wound to JC... (and most likely the small hole in JFK's neck)

NOPE!

1. CE399/aka first shot, is responsible for (a) shallow entry into the back of jfk (B) small fragment of lead out neck of jfk.

2. Z313/aka second shot, is responsible for (cowlick entry) tremendous cerebral damage to JFK, as well as small fragment to right arm/wrist of JBC.

3. Third/Last/Final shot impact at survey stationing 4+95/directly in front of James Altgens, is responsible

for (EOP ENTRY), completion of fragmentation and separation of portions of JFK's skull, passage through the mid-brain, exit from the frontal area of the parietal lobe of jfk, travelling onward/downward to strike JBC in the right rear shoulder as he lay over across the open area of the jump seats.

Tom

P.S. Shot#3 is in fact the one and only true "MAGIC BULLET".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tom,

I have to respectively disagree with your conclusion of 3 shots - 3 hits. Just like asking why the shooter does not shoot as JFK approaches...

the shot that kills him IS as he approaches... from the right front. in addition to the low neck entry shot from the rear you speak of...

I just believe there were more shots fired, in sync, as directed by radio.. as many as nine in fact (3 shooters firing 3 times ea)

and have to thank you for illuminating so many things for me.

A few posts up I saw the same thing and quote Hill saying a shot arrives as he arrives at the limo, very interesting.

DJ

Clint Hill/aka the "running & Rising man.

Might want to check out his first attempt at placement of a foot onto the rear bumper of the Presidential Limo and exactly how far he got with this attempt (as seen in the Z-film)

Thereafter, one just may want to compare the Z-film with the Nix film.

Tom

I've done that Tom... and it does look like there are a few missing steps.. his right foot just seems to glide down the street

1. Fragment from the Z313 jfk headshot to JBC's outstretched right arm.

2. The one and only true "magic"* bullet thereafter striking him in the right rear shoulder after he was laying over exposing his back and right shoulder between the open area of the jump seats.

*It went through JFK's head first, prior to exiting downward and striking JBC, and thereafter has done an excellent job of "disappearing'.

Tom

P.S. Certainly glad that I never believed much of anything that the WC had to say. Especially that "circle jerk" reasoning regarding "THE SHOT THAT MISSED"!

Now you say that JFK was hit by 3 shots... and that the headshot creates the wrist wound to JC... (and most likely the small hole in JFK's neck)

Aren't you missing the shot thru Connally's chest? The shot that hit the manhole cover area? The shot that caused dust and sparks to fly up just after the turn onto Elm?

The multitude of witnesses related to the GK area shot(s)? The Tague shot?

Point remains Tom... Kellerman and Hill describe a shot that occurs just as Hill is getting to the limo

Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.

Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail, when she noticed that I was trying to climb on the car. She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in the back seat, crawled up on top of the back seat and lay there.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring to Commission Exhibit No. 354, would you mark an "X", as best you can, at the spot where the President's automobile was at the time the first shot occurred?

Mr. HILL. Approximately there.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you mark a "Y" at the approximate position where the President's car was at the second shot you have described? What is your best estimate of the speed of the President's car at the precise time of the first shot, Mr. Hill?

This is absurd... he marks areas that are substantially UP the street when the zfilm puts him farther down the street and it is STILL not far enough down Elm to accurately describe the location...

Can you please state specifically why you do not believe JFK was hit from the front at all? My understanding was that the tests done showed no way for a bullet to hit at the rear of a head and not cause substantial damage to the face.... the photos do not match the xrays which do not match the witness descriptions...

Perfect :blink:

DJ

and that the headshot creates the wrist wound to JC... (and most likely the small hole in JFK's neck)

NOPE!

1. CE399/aka first shot, is responsible for (a) shallow entry into the back of jfk (B) small fragment of lead out neck of jfk.

2. Z313/aka second shot, is responsible for (cowlick entry) tremendous cerebral damage to JFK, as well as small fragment to right arm/wrist of JBC.

3. Third/Last/Final shot impact at survey stationing 4+95/directly in front of James Altgens, is responsible

for (EOP ENTRY), completion of fragmentation and separation of portions of JFK's skull, passage through the mid-brain, exit from the frontal area of the parietal lobe of jfk, travelling onward/downward to strike JBC in the right rear shoulder as he lay over across the open area of the jump seats.

Tom

P.S. Shot#3 is in fact the one and only true "MAGIC BULLET".

Tom, I'm glad you mentioned CE399. Years ago you posted on Lancer, I believe, the point of entry and schematic diagrams from the back and side showing where the bullet lodged and the direction it was tumbling. I thought those diagrams most helpful in understanding your view of the first shot. I'm sure it would be of great benefit to everyone on this forum if you could repost them, because if readers here weren't part of the conversation on Lancer they may not know what you mean by the lead fragment exiting the front Kennedy's neck. Regards, Daniel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CE399 only comes into existance when SA Elmer Todd brings it to Frazier...

The bullet from Tomlinson thru Rowley is NOT identified as CE399

SA Johnson cannot ID CE399 as the bullet he gave to Rowley or had gotten from Wright

Rowley does NOT identify the bullet as the one he rec'd or the one he gave to Todd.

Todd claims in JUNE of 1964, that the bullet he rec'd from Rowley IS CE399 since TODD'S initials are on them... :blink:

CE399notthebulletCE2011_24_412.jpg

Mr. EISENBERG - Mr. Frazier, I now hand you Commission Exhibit 399, which, for the record, is a bullet, and also for the record, it is a bullet which was found in the Parkland Hospital following the assassination. Are you familiar with this exhibit?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. This is a bullet which was delivered to me in the FBI laboratory on November 22, 1963 by Special Agent Elmer Todd of the FBI Washington Field Office.

Mr. EISENBERG - Does that have your mark on it?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, it does.

Mr. EISENBERG - The bullet is in the same condition as it was when you received it?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; except for the marking of my initials and the other examiners. There is a discoloration at the nose caused apparently by mounting this bullet in some material which stained it, which was not present when received, and one more thing on the nose is a small dent or scraped area. At this area the spectographic examiner removed a small quantity of metal for analysis.

Mr. EISENBERG - Did you prepare the bullet in any way for examination? That is, did you clean it or in any way alter it?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; it was not necessary. The bullet was clean and it was not necessary to change it in any way.

Mr. EISENBERG - There was no blood or similar material on the bullet when you received it?

Mr. FRAZIER - Not any which would interfere with the examination, no, sir. Now there may have been slight traces which could have been removed just ,in ordinary handling, but it wasn't necessary to actually clean blood or tissue off of the bullet

Good thing those "slight traces" of what may have been JFK's jacket, shirt, skin, muscle, or blood... or JC's jacket, short, skin, muscle, blood, & bone did not INTERFERE with the investigation... :ph34r:

So Tom... once again... how does the bullet that becomes CE399 get from JFK's back to Elmer Todd?

DJ

Link to comment
Share on other sites

David,

Excellent post! I think Thomas Purvis is not quite up-to-speed on the extensive debate over Clint Hill's testimony: that he rushed forward, pushed Jackie down, lay across their bodies and peered down into a fist-sized hole in the back of JFK's head! What you have found, of course, is confirmation that he was lying across their bodies--all before the limo reached the TUP. If Tom wants more on this, there is a detailed discussion at "Who's telling the truth: Clint Hill or the Zapruder film?", http://www.veteranst...-zapruder-film/ In this context, the term "proof" refers to evidence that tends to establish a certain conclusion, which can receive additional support from other evidence.

Jim

Uh, thanks Jim... except I was not trying to justify other portions of Hill's testimony... just the contradiction between the testimony of Kellerman and the Zfilm

To state that Hill was already in the seat and across their bodies before the TUP, when we see full well that he hovers over them while hangin on for dear life.. is too far a leap for me. Add to this his own testimony and I believe you read to much into his statement.

This is obviously AFTER the TUP and he is still not "laying across their bodies" in the literal sense, but the figurative... as are most of the descriptions you like to use...

You promoting the literal meaning when it's obvious they were talking figuratively is misleading, imo.

So no Jim, my post - nor Kellerman or Hill's testimony does NOT confirm his performing these activities BEFORE TUP.

In fact, these images prove he did NOT "lay across their bodies"... in fact, if you search for the word "ACROSS" in his testimony you find out what he was really laying across...

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate on the speed at which the President's car traveled from the point of the shooting to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. HILL. It is a little bit hard for me to judge, since I was lying across the rear portion of the automobile. I had no trouble staying in that particular position--until we approached the hospital, I recall, I believe it was a left-hand turn and I started slipping off to the right-hand portion of the car. So I would say that we went 60, maybe 65 at the most.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to secure a handhold or a leghold or any sort of a hold on the automobile as you moved forward?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. I had my legs--I had my body above the rear seat, and my legs hooked down into the rear seat, one foot outside the car.

He may have said somehting about laying across theur bodies at some future point... but not for the WCR. In fact, if we are to take him at his word regarding the hole he sees, I think it only appropriate to take him at his word regarding his trip to Parkland

Yet most disturbing is this line of Q&A.... as Purvis has tried to prove, the SECOND SHOT was 313 in the z film... AND

he corroborates the idea that it is JFK's HAND we see in that photo and NOT his foot, (I think the small item in front of JFK's hand is Hill's foot)...

Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did Mrs. Kennedy move out of the rear seat?

Mr. HILL. Just after it.

Mr. SPECTER. You say that it appeared that she was reaching as if something was coming over to the rear portion of the car, back in the area where you were coming to?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything back there that you observed, that she might have been reaching for?

Mr. HILL. I thought I saw something come off the back, too, but I cannot say that there was. I do know that the next day we found the portion of the President's head.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you find that portion of the President's head?

Mr. HILL. It was found in the street. It was turned in, I believe, by a medical student or somebody in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any difficulty maintaining your balance on the back of the car after you had come up on the top of it?

Mr. HILL. Not until we turned off to enter the Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what action did you take specifically with respect to placing Mrs. Kennedy back in the rear seat?

Mr. HILL. I simply just pushed and she moved--somewhat voluntarily--right back into the same seat she was in. The President--when she had attempted to get out onto the trunk of the car, his body apparently did not move too much, because when she got back into the car he was at that time, when I got on top of the car, face up in her lap.

Mr. SPECTER. And that was, after she was back in the rear seat?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were the President's legs at that time?

Mr. HILL. Inside the car.

In fact, from the available evidence that we can actually believe is authentic...

the events you describe happened much later and well after the limo would EVER have been filmed by Zapruder....

Bell shows Hill still almost vertical as he is seen in

McIntyre and as he is seen later in

Moore?? (I forget who took the hand that becomes a foot photo - plus I tried to include here but it would not let me add a third image.. i will post it next.)

McIntyrecrop.jpg

HillonlimoinBell-beforeTUP.jpg

Here's a photo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

David,

Excellent post! I think Thomas Purvis is not quite up-to-speed on the extensive debate over Clint Hill's testimony: that he rushed forward, pushed Jackie down, lay across their bodies and peered down into a fist-sized hole in the back of JFK's head! What you have found, of course, is confirmation that he was lying across their bodies--all before the limo reached the TUP. If Tom wants more on this, there is a detailed discussion at "Who's telling the truth: Clint Hill or the Zapruder film?", http://www.veteranst...-zapruder-film/ In this context, the term "proof" refers to evidence that tends to establish a certain conclusion, which can receive additional support from other evidence.

Jim

Uh, thanks Jim... except I was not trying to justify other portions of Hill's testimony... just the contradiction between the testimony of Kellerman and the Zfilm

To state that Hill was already in the seat and across their bodies before the TUP, when we see full well that he hovers over them while hangin on for dear life.. is too far a leap for me. Add to this his own testimony and I believe you read to much into his statement.

This is obviously AFTER the TUP and he is still not "laying across their bodies" in the literal sense, but the figurative... as are most of the descriptions you like to use...

You promoting the literal meaning when it's obvious they were talking figuratively is misleading, imo.

So no Jim, my post - nor Kellerman or Hill's testimony does NOT confirm his performing these activities BEFORE TUP.

In fact, these images prove he did NOT "lay across their bodies"... in fact, if you search for the word "ACROSS" in his testimony you find out what he was really laying across...

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate on the speed at which the President's car traveled from the point of the shooting to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. HILL. It is a little bit hard for me to judge, since I was lying across the rear portion of the automobile. I had no trouble staying in that particular position--until we approached the hospital, I recall, I believe it was a left-hand turn and I started slipping off to the right-hand portion of the car. So I would say that we went 60, maybe 65 at the most.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to secure a handhold or a leghold or any sort of a hold on the automobile as you moved forward?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. I had my legs--I had my body above the rear seat, and my legs hooked down into the rear seat, one foot outside the car.

He may have said somehting about laying across theur bodies at some future point... but not for the WCR. In fact, if we are to take him at his word regarding the hole he sees, I think it only appropriate to take him at his word regarding his trip to Parkland

Yet most disturbing is this line of Q&A.... as Purvis has tried to prove, the SECOND SHOT was 313 in the z film... AND

he corroborates the idea that it is JFK's HAND we see in that photo and NOT his foot, (I think the small item in front of JFK's hand is Hill's foot)...

Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did Mrs. Kennedy move out of the rear seat?

Mr. HILL. Just after it.

Mr. SPECTER. You say that it appeared that she was reaching as if something was coming over to the rear portion of the car, back in the area where you were coming to?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything back there that you observed, that she might have been reaching for?

Mr. HILL. I thought I saw something come off the back, too, but I cannot say that there was. I do know that the next day we found the portion of the President's head.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you find that portion of the President's head?

Mr. HILL. It was found in the street. It was turned in, I believe, by a medical student or somebody in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any difficulty maintaining your balance on the back of the car after you had come up on the top of it?

Mr. HILL. Not until we turned off to enter the Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what action did you take specifically with respect to placing Mrs. Kennedy back in the rear seat?

Mr. HILL. I simply just pushed and she moved--somewhat voluntarily--right back into the same seat she was in. The President--when she had attempted to get out onto the trunk of the car, his body apparently did not move too much, because when she got back into the car he was at that time, when I got on top of the car, face up in her lap.

Mr. SPECTER. And that was, after she was back in the rear seat?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were the President's legs at that time?

Mr. HILL. Inside the car.

In fact, from the available evidence that we can actually believe is authentic...

the events you describe happened much later and well after the limo would EVER have been filmed by Zapruder....

Bell shows Hill still almost vertical as he is seen in

McIntyre and as he is seen later in

Moore?? (I forget who took the hand that becomes a foot photo - plus I tried to include here but it would not let me add a third image.. i will post it next.)

McIntyrecrop.jpg

HillonlimoinBell-beforeTUP.jpg

Here's a photo.

Kathy C

post-5645-075566100 1328245515_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Clint Hill/aka the "running & Rising man.

Might want to check out his first attempt at placement of a foot onto the rear bumper of the Presidential Limo and exactly how far he got with this attempt (as seen in the Z-film)

Thereafter, one just may want to compare the Z-film with the Nix film.

Tom

I've done that Tom... and it does look like there are a few missing steps.. his right foot just seems to glide down the street

1. Fragment from the Z313 jfk headshot to JBC's outstretched right arm.

2. The one and only true "magic"* bullet thereafter striking him in the right rear shoulder after he was laying over exposing his back and right shoulder between the open area of the jump seats.

*It went through JFK's head first, prior to exiting downward and striking JBC, and thereafter has done an excellent job of "disappearing'.

Tom

P.S. Certainly glad that I never believed much of anything that the WC had to say. Especially that "circle jerk" reasoning regarding "THE SHOT THAT MISSED"!

Now you say that JFK was hit by 3 shots... and that the headshot creates the wrist wound to JC... (and most likely the small hole in JFK's neck)

Aren't you missing the shot thru Connally's chest? The shot that hit the manhole cover area? The shot that caused dust and sparks to fly up just after the turn onto Elm?

The multitude of witnesses related to the GK area shot(s)? The Tague shot?

Point remains Tom... Kellerman and Hill describe a shot that occurs just as Hill is getting to the limo

Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.

Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail, when she noticed that I was trying to climb on the car. She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in the back seat, crawled up on top of the back seat and lay there.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring to Commission Exhibit No. 354, would you mark an "X", as best you can, at the spot where the President's automobile was at the time the first shot occurred?

Mr. HILL. Approximately there.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you mark a "Y" at the approximate position where the President's car was at the second shot you have described? What is your best estimate of the speed of the President's car at the precise time of the first shot, Mr. Hill?

This is absurd... he marks areas that are substantially UP the street when the zfilm puts him farther down the street and it is STILL not far enough down Elm to accurately describe the location...

Can you please state specifically why you do not believe JFK was hit from the front at all? My understanding was that the tests done showed no way for a bullet to hit at the rear of a head and not cause substantial damage to the face.... the photos do not match the xrays which do not match the witness descriptions...

Perfect :blink:

DJ

and that the headshot creates the wrist wound to JC... (and most likely the small hole in JFK's neck)

NOPE!

1. CE399/aka first shot, is responsible for (a) shallow entry into the back of jfk (B) small fragment of lead out neck of jfk.

2. Z313/aka second shot, is responsible for (cowlick entry) tremendous cerebral damage to JFK, as well as small fragment to right arm/wrist of JBC.

3. Third/Last/Final shot impact at survey stationing 4+95/directly in front of James Altgens, is responsible

for (EOP ENTRY), completion of fragmentation and separation of portions of JFK's skull, passage through the mid-brain, exit from the frontal area of the parietal lobe of jfk, travelling onward/downward to strike JBC in the right rear shoulder as he lay over across the open area of the jump seats.

Tom

P.S. Shot#3 is in fact the one and only true "MAGIC BULLET".

How could CE399 possibly be respsonsible for a fragment coming (11 degrees upwards) out of the throat? There is virtually nothing missing from the bullet and what there is is from the base-end. Are you suggesting the very stable CE399 tumbled of its own accord over such a short distance?

There was no cowlick entry.

Martin, Tom Purvis has written up a scenario whereby 399 hits a tree branch, tumbles, hits Kennedy at the 7th cervical vertebra (right of it) 18 degrees down and 14 degrees right to left. It is tumbling clockwise if you are viewing Kennedy from a right profile and it enters base first. The base tends downward to rest on the apex of Kennedyls right lung and in the process of entering Kennedy a piece of lead from the base of 399 becomes detached from 399 and exits at a different angle from that of 399 itself,presumably due to its striking bone, or else Tom has some other explanation for this anomaly. According to Tom, the lead exiting fragment created a small wound in the anterior neck that fooled the Dallas doctors who saw the wound and said it was an entrance wound. At Lancer he had pictures that attempted to prove his point.

Tom produced an excellent diagram showing the approximate path of 399 according to his theory, and I wish he would reproduce it here. Needless to say, since I think 399 is a plant, I don't buy his explanation, but Tom would do well at least to explain what he means more thoroughly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All well and good gentlemen - yet this still does not answer the question...

How does the bullet that becomes CE399 come into existence?

The bullet Wright gives to Johnsen was NOT CE399 according to Wright and Johnsen... :blink:

The bullet Johnsen gives to Rowley is NOT CE399 according to Johnsen and Rowley

The bullet Rowley gives to Todd is NOT CE399 according to Rowley

The bullet Todd gives to Frazier, supposedly at 7:30 when Johnsen is at the White House giving Rowley the envelope...

Todd's initials are finally on THIS BULLET which is now the CE399 bullet.

Tom Purvis is guessing at best as to the flight of a bullet....

"My God I'm Hit" is what Kellerman says JFK said, right?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away from buildings, and were there was a sign on the side of the road which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker, pop. And I turned my head to the right because whatever this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly believe it was the President's, "My God, I am hit," and I turned around and he has got his hands up here like this.

So Purvis' idea that a bullet enters shallow in JFK's back is imo, correct, just as Humes said.

The throat wound cames after one of the headshots... we get this from Rankin's statement about the autopsy report...

There is no evidence whatsover that places CE399 in Dallas, or at least not at Parkland Hospital...

and then there is the Shanklin bullet...

So until he cites any piece of authenticated evidence, I dont see how his scenario works

DJ

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Martin...

That which has been "blantantly obvious" over the years - changes.

I have come to learn, right here in fact, that those that assume an item of evidence is authentic should prove it.. belief & faith is best reserved for religion and childhood fairytales

Tom has done some great work in other areas... yet he keeps referring to the medical evidence as some reliable and authentic means of describing the injuries... :blink:

He posts with an air of underlying knowledge that only he has and the rest of us are just outside looking in..

So under that realization I'd still like to know who, after his conclusions regardint eh damage done by CE399... it comes into existence...

Who do you suppose has CE399 - i.e. which is the first recorded evidence showing CE399 as the current bullet in evidence? The CE photos?

DJ

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's true that the provenance of CE399 is questionable. Even as the rifling marks match the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, there is no UNQUESTIONABLE link to the bodies of EITHER JFK or Connally. Had the bullet been removed by medical personnel, there would be NO questions. Since it wasn't, the ONLY thing that can be done is to speculate, based upon the evidence. Tom Purvis, in years past, produced photographs of a bullet that he fired into a live oak branch...a bullet that was flattened similarly to CE399...and it was fired from a similar Mannlicher Carcano 6.5mm model 91/38, using Winchester Western ammunition from a similar batch.

Now, does this PROVE, beyond a reasonable doubt, that this is EXACTLY what happened to CE399? Hardly. But it does indicate that Purvis' theory makes a hell of a lot more sense than the WC's SBT fantasy. Still, there are gaps in the chain of evidence linking CE399 to JFK, as well as apparent gaps in the chain of custody.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Martin...

That which has been "blantantly obvious" over the years - changes.

I have come to learn, right here in fact, that those that assume an item of evidence is authentic should prove it.. belief & faith is best reserved for religion and childhood fairytales

Tom has done some great work in other areas... yet he keeps referring to the medical evidence as some reliable and authentic means of describing the injuries... :blink:

He posts with an air of underlying knowledge that only he has and the rest of us are just outside looking in..

So under that realization I'd still like to know who, after his conclusions regardint eh damage done by CE399... it comes into existence...

Who do you suppose has CE399 - i.e. which is the first recorded evidence showing CE399 as the current bullet in evidence? The CE photos?

DJ

FWIW I have considered a remote possibility that CE399 was recovered from Dealey Plaza. Dallas police officer, Joe W. Foster, told the Commission he had “found where one shot had hit the turf” (6H252) and, the infamous series of photographs taken by Black Star photographer, Jim Murry, show Foster and other officers inspecting the lawn. In these pictures a sandy-haired man in a suit, later identified by Dallas police chief Jesse Curry as an FBI agent, is seen apparently picking a bullet out of the grass and putting it in his left pocket. Could it be that this unidentified FBI agent carried the bullet straight to FBI HQ in Washington? This might explain how Robert Frazier could have CE399 in his possession over an hour before Elmer Todd received the stretcher bullet in the White House.

Martin

I believe the FBI man was Kyle G Clark.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[

Martin, Tom Purvis has written up a scenario whereby 399 hits a tree branch, tumbles, hits Kennedy at the 7th cervical vertebra (right of it) 18 degrees down and 14 degrees right to left. It is tumbling clockwise if you are viewing Kennedy from a right profile and it enters base first. The base tends downward to rest on the apex of Kennedyls right lung and in the process of entering Kennedy a piece of lead from the base of 399 becomes detached from 399 and exits at a different angle from that of 399 itself,presumably due to its striking bone, or else Tom has some other explanation for this anomaly. According to Tom, the lead exiting fragment created a small wound in the anterior neck that fooled the Dallas doctors who saw the wound and said it was an entrance wound. At Lancer he had pictures that attempted to prove his point.

Tom produced an excellent diagram showing the approximate path of 399 according to his theory, and I wish he would reproduce it here. Needless to say, since I think 399 is a plant, I don't buy his explanation, but Tom would do well at least to explain what he means more thoroughly.

Done!

Just that yourself and many others did not receive a copy of the publications.

Tom

P.S. The Sixth Floor Museum did though!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

David,

The earlier reports are almost always the more reliable. By the time they got certain witnesses before the commission, the

staff knew what they were going to say--by and large--where Kellerman has to have surprised them. You are pitting later Hargis

against earlier Hargis. But earlier Hargis is going to be more reliable: his memory was fresher, his candor less constrained, and his

testimony hangs together with that of Curry, Sorrels, Chaney, Hill, and (now) Kellerman. That powerful proof about what happened.

PERFECT ILLUSTRATION:

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, when the flurry occurred then, were you still facing forward talking into the microphone to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back.

Mr. SPECTER. To your right this time--to your left; pardon me.

Mr. KELLERMAN. To my left; that is right. This is when I first viewed Mr. Hill, who was on the back of the--

Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where was he in that instant?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Lying right across the trunk of the car with Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear, Mr. Hill's head was right up in back of her.

Since what he is reporting obviously occurred BEFORE the limo took off and BEFORE it reached the TUP, I have supposed that you, like

me, would put Curry + Sorrels + Hargis + Chaney + Hill + Kellerman = the Zapruder film has been faked! We don't see all this in the film!

That under the pressure of testifying before the commission there would be variations from their original reports should not come as any

surprise. Their testimony was being massaged! What is important, from this point of view, is that Kellerman confirms what Hill reported.

Jim

''Since what he is reporting obviously occurred BEFORE the limo took off and BEFORE it reached the TUP, I have supposed that you, like

me, would put Curry + Sorrels + Hargis + Chaney + Hill + Kellerman = the Zapruder film has been faked! We don't see all this in the film!

That under the pressure of testifying before the commission there would be variations from their original reports should not come as any

surprise. Their testimony was being massaged! What is important, from this point of view, is that Kellerman confirms what Hill reported.''

I have been going through some of my files, Jack and I were still in contact re research before he had to retire from the Forum, this i am going to post pertained to Chaney going forward and relaying his information that the President had been shot to curry......he was still, Jack, IMO doing some great work, while i as usual,upon receiving his emails puttered and tried to grasp all his information, at times the light bulbs did burn brightly within my grey matter, other times they remained burnt out.......anyhoo.......this is photo research from Jack,that to myknowledge was never posted before, some of the last he worked on,as far as i know, it is within a frame of Wiegman,before the limo proceeded under the underpass,I post such, not to encourage the discord, but to hopefully clarify for some the information that has been researched,it may help in providing some clarity towards what has become a prickly subject..within the reasearch ....so FYI from Jack White, god bless him........best b

Edited by Bernice Moore
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe that is the wrong side of the street for Chaney Bernice....

the lead car was AHEAD of the limo and speeding away in McIntyre

"Halfback" was even farther behind

I believe the men identified are from the left side of the limo, Hargis and ?? who, Hargis, also said he stopped and crossed over in front of Chaney...

Mr. HARGIS - I don't know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off, and I stopped and got off my motorcycle and ran to the right-hand side of the street, behind the light pole.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe that is the wrong side of the street for Chaney Bernice....

the lead car was AHEAD of the limo and speeding away in McIntyre

"Halfback" was even farther behind

I believe the men identified are from the left side of the limo, Hargis and ?? who, Hargis, also said he stopped and crossed over in front of Chaney...

Mr. HARGIS - I don't know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off, and I stopped and got off my motorcycle and ran to the right-hand side of the street, behind the light pole.

Agreed David, it does appear he was to the right...thanks much...b I will have a further look within the frames..

Yoo David, my left and right are apparently or were mixed today, if that is all i have to complain about, i am doing well..........b

here is his statement...From: Richard Trask. That Day in Dallas: The Photographers Capture on Film The Day President Kennedy Died (Danvers, Mass: Yeoman Press, expanded edition, 2000), p.115 & p.119:

At about this time Bill Lord of ABC News did a brief interview of Chaney, recording his activities for a broadcast over WFAA television. Chaney recalled of the motorcade incident:

QUOTE

“I was riding on the right rear fender. We had proceeded west on Elm Street at approximately 15 to 20 miles per hour. We heard the first shot. I thought it was a motorcycle backfiring and, uh, I looked back over to the left and also President Kennedy looked back over his left shoulder. Then the, uh, second shot came, well then I looked back just in time to see the President struck in the face by the second bullet. He slumped forward into Mrs. Kennedy’s lap, and uh, it was apparent to me that we’re being fired upon. I went ahead of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been hit. And then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital, and he had Parkland standing by. I went on up ahead of the – to notify the officer that was leading the escort that he had been hit and we’re going to have to move out. [The shot,] it was back over my right shoulder” (24).”

(24) Bill Lord interview of James Chaney for WFAA-TV, 11/22/63.. b

Edited by Bernice Moore
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...