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Kellerman's testimony helps prove Purvis/Fetzer


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B

Hargis got hit cos of where he was ,if you draw a line from the knoll

Through the right forehead of JFK it intersects times is withinthe position Hargis is in .

All good here

Ian

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Daniel, here is matter being ejected from the back, seen in a Nix gif...b

Bernice, would you mind linking us to the video which that was taken from? I do not see that in my Nix film, although I will admit that it is not the greatest copy. What I do see however, are a lot of little white dots like that, scattered throughout the frames, appearing and then disappearing in the next frame.

And because your GIF has been darkened, I can't tell whether those dots were actually moving or are fixed in the background. That should be much easier to see in the original video.

One thing I do see in my copy of the film, is that the head was driven slightly forward when the bullet struck - just as we see in the Zapruder film.

Edited by Robert Harris
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Robert, it is a copy of a very old gif, i think created, some years back, by Rick last name gone now, sorry, he is at Duncan's site now, quite active at times...you might enquire there.....that is all i recall now..b...

Robert i checked at Duncan's I believe it could be Rick Needham's ..it has been so long now....... check with him.....b

Edited by Bernice Moore
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Ian and Daniel, this is a slow motion Nix film, notice how the limo slows down, the motorcyles catch up and begin to pull along side the limo, then the shot to his head and the limo begins to pull ahead obviously as Greer has finally stepped on the gas..imo.then ...they do begin to fall back also as the see Clint Hill climbing on the back of the limo.....b

Edited by Bernice Moore
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Ian and Daniel

I checked at Duncans and found this newer Nix gif by Rick Needham, posted by Gerda in a thread...showing the piece ,flying out from the back of JFK's head..thank you to Rick and Duncan's site...b

b

post-632-0-47412100-1363626057_thumb.gif

Edited by Bernice Moore
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Setting other issues aside, and since this thread is about Kellerman, can we agree that his earliest recollection on 11/22/63 was that he went for the microphone AFTER the shooting had ended and he had yelled at Greer to hurry up and get out of there? Therefore, what he recalled was perfectly consistent with the Zapruder film.

I can't help but suspect that he and a couple other SA's fudged their stories a bit to accelerate their actions, due to accusations that they were "sluggish" that day. They really weren't sluggish at all however. They just never heard anything that to most witnesses, sounded like a real gunshot, prior to frame 285.

We were still traveling at the normal rate of speed of from 12 to 15 miles per hour when I heard a noise, similar to a firecracker, exploding in the area to the rear of the car, about 12:30 p.m. Immediately I heard what I firmly believe was the President's voice, "My God, I'm hit!" I turned around to find out what happened when two additional shots rang out, and the President slumped into Mrs. Kennedy's lap and Governor Connally fell_to Mrs. Connally's lap. I heard Mrs. Kennedy shout, "What are they doing to you?". I yelled at William Greer (the driver) to "Step on it, we're hit!" and grabbed the mike from the car radio, called to SA Lawson in the police lead car that we were hit and to get us to a hospital.

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Robert....

Please do some of the math.... Figure out how Hill would be able to leave a moving car even at 8mph and cover the distance from the front of the SS car to the back of the Limo... how fast MUST he run to cover that distance in that number of frames....

SEE how his feet simply glide long the ground in Nix - between the SS car and limo.... he has to cover the 8 feet from his position to the front of the SS car, he has to cover the ground BETWEEN the cars... all while the limo is moving at least 8mph.... ??

Now, take it back a ver seconds... the Zfilm shows the limo moving along at a constant rate of speed... we KNOW this cannot be true from the legend of movement down Elm and the corresponding frames.. we KNOW that chunks have been removed... including the 2-3mph crawl/STOP of the limo...

And then... ever wonder how the SS car catches the limo given how we see it pull away in Nix?

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Daniel, here is matter being ejected from the back, seen in a Nix gif...b

Bernice, would you mind linking us to the video which that was taken from? I do not see that in my Nix film, although I will admit that it is not the greatest copy. What I do see however, are a lot of little white dots like that, scattered throughout the frames, appearing and then disappearing in the next frame.

And because your GIF has been darkened, I can't tell whether those dots were actually moving or are fixed in the background. That should be much easier to see in the original video.

One thing I do see in my copy of the film, is that the head was driven slightly forward when the bullet struck - just as we see in the Zapruder film.

Robert,

I like your theory and I want to believe it, but I don't understand why JFK's head wasn't driven farther forward in Zapruder and Nix during the approximate half-second interval between the two head shots.

Thanks,

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Robert....

Please do some of the math.... Figure out how Hill would be able to leave a moving car even at 8mph and cover the distance from the front of the SS car to the back of the Limo... how fast MUST he run to cover that distance in that number of frames....

SEE how his feet simply glide long the ground in Nix - between the SS car and limo.... he has to cover the 8 feet from his position to the front of the SS car, he has to cover the ground BETWEEN the cars... all while the limo is moving at least 8mph.... ??

Now, take it back a ver seconds... the Zfilm shows the limo moving along at a constant rate of speed... we KNOW this cannot be true from the legend of movement down Elm and the corresponding frames.. we KNOW that chunks have been removed... including the 2-3mph crawl/STOP of the limo...

And then... ever wonder how the SS car catches the limo given how we see it pull away in Nix?

First, you have to realize that the followup car was almost bumper-to-bumper with the limo. The distance was about 2-3 feet, so Hill didn't have to run far. I made up this collage from the Muchmore film awhile back, which gives us a pretty good idea of his route to the limo. I placed the equivalent Zapruder frame numbers in the frames (the forum software shrunk the image - click on it to expand it).

hillsequence2.jpg

Edited by Robert Harris
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  • 4 weeks later...

"

Excellent post! I think Thomas Purvis is not quite up-to-speed on the extensive debate over Clint Hill's testimony:"

Well, due to a few medical problems, Tom is not up to his past physical and/or mental speed.

Nevertheless, he is fully aware of the correlation of Clint Hill's testimony with the testimony and actions of the others in the Presidential Limo.

And since you appear to have been driving in "reverse" for all of these years in regards to the subject matter of the JFK assassination, perhaps others may wish to know at exactly what point Clint Hill placed a foot onto the rear bumper of the Presidential Limo.

The "running/rising" man (as long ago referred to in other postings) will show this point. IF, one will take a close look at comparison of the Z-film with the Nix film.

Tom (slow poke) Purvis

David,

Excellent post! I think Thomas Purvis is not quite up-to-speed on the extensive debate over Clint Hill's testimony: that he rushed forward, pushed Jackie down, lay across their bodies and peered down into a fist-sized hole in the back of JFK's head! What you have found, of course, is confirmation that he was lying across their bodies--all before the limo reached the TUP. If Tom wants more on this, there is a detailed discussion at "Who's telling the truth: Clint Hill or the Zapruder film?", http://www.veteranst...-zapruder-film/ In this context, the term "proof" refers to evidence that tends to establish a certain conclusion, which can receive additional support from other evidence.

Jim

Prof. Fetzer, a couple of questions if you please :

1. As Chaney 'motoring forwards' no doubt happened before the limo reached the triple underpass, according to yourself, then surely an abundance of witnesses, if not each and everyone who were in the Plaza watching the motorcade, should be able to testify to this as fact, wouldn't you agree? If so, i'd appreciate it if you could point me in the direction of any witnesses, EXCLUDING the lead car occupants, who have made any statements, or suchlike, regarding a motorcycle pulling ahead of the limo whilst still in Dealey Plaza?

Sure--and for every other important aspect of the case, we can EXCLUDE the best witnesses to those events! Pretty soon, we will discover that what was actually going on was a circus parade--except we will have to EXCLUDE the witnesses to those events, too! In this case, the witness list is simply unimpeachable, since it includes persons who may well have been involved themselves!

Why would Secret Service agents, motorcycle patrolmen, and the Chief of Police have been wrong about this? There is no good reason to suppose they would have been. Next you will ask me to prove what Clint Hill has reported saying over the past nearly 50 years--but EXCLUDING CLINT HILL! Too much was going on. There is no reason to suppose everyone there noticed everything.

Anyone who is serious about getting to the truth of these matters has to take to heart what Clint Hill has been telling us for nearly 50 years now. Not only is there unimpeachable testimony of Officer Chaney motoring forward, but Clint Hill's testimony confirms it. That Tink and now Calli SHOULD BE IN SOME STATE OF DENIAL ABOUT ALL OF THIS is utterly beyond belief!

"As I approached the vehicle there was a third shot. It hit the President in the head, upper right rear of the right ear, caused a gaping hole in his head, which caused brain matter, blood, and bone fragments to spew forth out over the car, over myself. At that point Mrs. Kennedy came up out of the back seat onto the trunk of the car. She was trying to retrieve something that had gone off to the right rear. She did not know I was there. At that point I grabbed Mrs. Kennedy, put her in the back seat. The President fell over into her lap, to his left.

"His right side of his head was exposed. I could see his eyes were fixed. There was a hole in the upper right rear portion of his head about the size of my palm. Most of the gray matter in that area had been removed, and was scattered throughout the entire car, including on Mrs. Kennedy. I turned and gave the follow-up car crew the thumbs-down, indicating that we were in a very dire situation. The driver accelerated; he got up to the lead car which was driven by Chief Curry, the Dallas Chief of Police . . .”.

Not only does Clint's description of the wound contradict your characterization, but his account is consistent with what Bobby Hargis, Forrest Sorrels, and Chief Jesse Curry have told us about about Chaney, which refutes the film's authenticity.

Tink has repeatedly claimed this happened AFTER the limo had already passed the TUP and that we have simply not been thinking about the temporal relationship here. My three favorites are Bobby Hargis, Forrest Sorrels, and Chief Jesse Curry:

(1) Forrest Sorrels: "A motorcycle pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled ‘Is anybody hurt?’, to which the officer replied in the affirmative, and Chief Curry immediately broadcast to surround the building. By that time we had gotten just about under the underpass when the President’s car pulled up alongside, . . ."

(2) Bobby Hargis: "I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he [the President] was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off . . . .”

(3) Chief Jesse Curry: "at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President’s caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there . . ."

James Chaney, Bobby Hargis, and Clint Hill WERE NOT OCCUPANTS OF THE LEAD CAR, in case you have not noticed. And citing other alleged reports and later interviews, whose authenticity is open to question, is not a very persuasive way to argue your case. In fact, such a case as you are attempting to contrive appears to be superfluous. WE ALREADY HAVE SUFFICIENT PROOF AT HAND.

Others can address your questions about how the films and photos were faked or altered, but the agency certainly has the ability to do that, where most of the evidence in this case has been fabricated. Since Chief Curry called for the building to be "surrounded" when Chaney told him JFK had been shot, which he did at the TUP, there really is NO POINT in fantasizing about the entrance to the freeway.

If this isn't enough proof for you on this point, I can't imagine what it would take to convince you. Since only Tom Robinson and Ed Reed watched Humes take a cranial saw to JFK's head, I suppose you want me to prove that but EXCLUDING TOM ROBINSON AND ED REED? And then it will be the limo stop but EXCLUDING ALL THE LIMO STOP WITNESSES? How dumb are we supposed to be?

We are doing what we can to solve the case and you are doing something else. But the fact that someone like you has shown up tells me that we are making progress and that Tink has been outgunned. So they needed to send in the cavalry, which is why you are here. We all have better things to do, however, than to construct proofs WITHOUT THE MOST IMPORTANT EVIDENCE THAT PROVES THEM.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, when the flurry occurred then, were you still facing forward talking into the microphone to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back.

Mr. SPECTER. To your right this time--to your left; pardon me.

Mr. KELLERMAN. To my left; that is right. This is when I first viewed Mr. Hill, who was on the back of the--

Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where was he in that instant?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Lying right across the trunk of the car with Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear, Mr. Hill's head was right up in back of her.

Doesn’t this suggest shots well after 313 since we KNOW Hill does not reach the limo until z340, and JAckie is not on the trunk until much later..

z342.jpg

The gif below is from z350-400... This would be the only time that Kellerman would see them both on the back of the limo...

"Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back.

Is this how y'all see it?

DJ

Unfortunately, it does not "prove" anything.

It does however serve to support the other testimonies as to when the third shot impact occurred.

In fact, if one will correlate the testimonies of Kellerman and Greer regarding transmission over the radio, with the testimonies of Agent Hill, they will find other testimonies which, when all placed into perspective, will serve to indicat that the third shot impact occurred just as James Altgens said it did.

Directly in front of where he was standing.

Tom

P.S. And of course Nellie as well as JBC have repeatedly stated that the third shot impact which blew cerebral tissue all over them, occurred AFTER JBC was leaned over in the seat with his head in Nellie's lap.

From this, and the survey plats and survey notes in my possession, it would now appear that the Warren Commission was severely lacking in their attempt at making one of the three shots (the third shot) disappear.

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In fact, if one will correlate the testimonies of Kellerman and Greer regarding transmission over the radio, with the testimonies of Agent Hill, they will find other testimonies which, when all placed into perspective, will serve to indicat that the third shot impact occurred just as James Altgens said it did.

Directly in front of where he was standing.

Only one 'reality' problem with that. Altgens said he had prefocused his camera to 15 feet. A quick check of a Depth of Field calculator shows with is 105mm lens set at 15 feet for focus and at f16 (being generous) he would have had an area of acceptable focus from 12.6 feet to 18.6 feet...or only 6.6 feet of sharp focus.

Altgens was a pro who no doubt shot many times prefocused. Doing so with a moving subject REQUIRES tracking the subject in the viewfinder until the come into the zone of focus. This is news and sports photography 101. We can see that Altgens camera was not at his eye, in fact is is quite a ways from it. He was NOT prepared to take the the image...HE WAS STUNNED just like he said...from the HEADSHOT.

Was here a shot at this location? Maybe? Did he WC try and hide it? Perhaps? Was it the head shot? Not based on Altgens.

Edited by Craig Lamson
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Altgens was a pro who no doubt shot many times prefocused. Doing so with a moving subject REQUIRES tracking the subject in the viewfinder until the come into the zone of focus. This is news and sports photography 101.

A brilliantly plausible explanation for why Kennedy was nowhere near the center of Altgens #6, as readers can judge for themselves here: http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2439/satevepost1.jpg

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Altgens was a pro who no doubt shot many times prefocused. Doing so with a moving subject REQUIRES tracking the subject in the viewfinder until the come into the zone of focus. This is news and sports photography 101.

A brilliantly plausible explanation for why Kennedy was nowhere near the center of Altgens #6, as readers can judge for themselves here: http://img26.imagesh...satevepost1.jpg

ROFLMAO!

The CENTER of the photo? ROFLMAO!

Oh wait it is Paul Rigby. Photo analyst extraordinaire. [/sarcasm] Who just failed photo composition 101. Imagine that.

http://photoinf.com/General/Peter_Saw/Tutorial_on_Composition/One_of_the_Don%27ts.htm

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/5058631297/photo-tip-left-of-center

And the list goes on and one and one.

What a silly statement by Rigby, surprise surprise.

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