JFK Special: Oswald was the man in the Doorway, after all!

[Craig Lamson]

Wow, can you see that v-neck tee shirt? ROFLMAO!

Craig,

I'm not buying this "discovery" one way or another at this point. However, WTF are you talking about the V-neck for?

From Fetzer's website he says:

But, let’s continue our three-way comparison. Both Doorway Man and Oswald were wearing “v-necked” t-shirts. Was Lovelady? Well, we have three pictures of Lovelady, and in two of them he is clearly wearing a round-necked t-shirt. One of them was taken shortly after the assassination by the FBI, while the other was taken several years later. Most men wear one or the other. It’s like boxers or briefs. The third photo is the same one of Lovelady that you see above, taken on the day of the assassination. To my eye, as I blow the picture up, it looks like he [LOVELADY] is wearing a round-neck t-shirt. It certainly does not have that notched, descending quality that you see on Doorway Man and Oswald.

IOW: Fetzer is not claiming that Lovelady was wearing a V-neck T-shirt at all! The conclusion implied by your post results in a non sequitur.

Did you even READ your own post?

Please notice the last line.

"It certainly does not have that notched, descending quality that you see on Doorway Man and Oswald"

Please try again next time...

Edited January 27, 2012 by Craig Lamson

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

How can it "settle the matter" if that is not the shirt that we find on Doorway Man? And if you

are going to decide these questions without studying the evidence, none of us is going to hold

our breath for your book on Oswald. You, of all people, should have a serious interest in this.

Thanks for posting this, Duncan.

This is from the brief film cli I "discovered" when, holding the position of "researcher," I was working on Executive Action in either late 1972 or 1973; and this is what persuaded me that it was Lovelady in the TSBD "doorway" photo taken by Altgens.

The clock reads just a minute or two past 2 PM., and these detectives are accompanying Oswald as he is marched directly past Lovelady.

I made individual 35 mm slides from frames from this film, showed them to Groden, and shared them with the HSCA.

In my opinion, this settled the matter once and for all.

I'm curious: what is the archival source for this photo, today?

Again, thanks for posting it.

DSL

1/27/12;6:20 PM PST

Los Angeles, CA

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Thank you, Monk. If Lovelady was wearing a round-neck, all the more reason to concluded that he

was not Doorway Man and that Oswald was. Take another look at the tee-shirt Oswald was wearing:

Wow, can you see that v-neck tee shirt? ROFLMAO!

Craig,

I'm not buying this "discovery" one way or another at this point. However, WTF are you talking about the V-neck for?

From Fetzer's website he says:

But, let’s continue our three-way comparison. Both Doorway Man and Oswald were wearing “v-necked” t-shirts. Was Lovelady? Well, we have three pictures of Lovelady, and in two of them he is clearly wearing a round-necked t-shirt. One of them was taken shortly after the assassination by the FBI, while the other was taken several years later. Most men wear one or the other. It’s like boxers or briefs. The third photo is the same one of Lovelady that you see above, taken on the day of the assassination. To my eye, as I blow the picture up, it looks like he [LOVELADY] is wearing a round-neck t-shirt. It certainly does not have that notched, descending quality that you see on Doorway Man and Oswald.

IOW: Fetzer is not claiming that Lovelady was wearing a V-neck T-shirt at all! The conclusion implied by your post results in a non sequitur.

Edited January 27, 2012 by James H. Fetzer

[Dean Hagerman]

This picture says it all

How anybody can look at this picture, then look at Altgens and say that Lovelady was NOT the man in the doorway is beyond me

It was Lovelady

Besides LHO was in the 2nd floor lunchroom during the assassination IMO

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Well, not quite. Lovelady's shirts fit him snugly. He wore round-collar tee-shirts. The shirt on the

Doorway Man was loose fitting and had a v-neck. The shirt Oswald was wearing was loose fitting--

and he had a v-neck, not because it was a v-neck shirt by design but because he tugged at its neck.

Let me recommend that you should take a look at our study, because then it might not be "beyond you".

This picture says it all

How anybody can look at this picture, then look at Altgens and say that Lovelady was NOT the man in the doorway is beyond me

It was Lovelady

Besides LHO was in the 2nd floor lunchroom during the assassination IMO

Edited January 27, 2012 by James H. Fetzer

[Craig Lamson]

Well, not quite. Lovelady's shirts fit him snugly. He wore round-collar tee-shirts. The shirt on the

Doorway Man was loose fitting and had a v-neck. The shirt Oswald was wearing was loose fitting--

and he had a v-neck, not because it was a v-neck shirt by design but because he tugged at its neck.

Let me recommend that you should take a look at our study, because then it might not be "beyond you".

The whack job theories abound!

So tell us Jim, how have you proven the teeshirt in doorway man was NOT a round collar shirt?

Or is this "beyond you"?

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

We all know what you are going to say, Lamson. You are unwavering and completely predictable. Let

those who are actually looking at the evidence scroll down to "Once more, with feeling!", where we

have Doorway Man on the left and Lovelady on the right, where above Doorway Man is Oswald. I think

anyone can see that the shirt on Doorway Man has been "touched up" but still does not resemble the

checkered shirt on Lovelady; and it is obvious that Doorway Man is not wearing the striped shirt he

(Lovelady) told the FBI he was wearing that day. But it very strongly resembles the shirt on Oswald,

which was loose-fitting like Doorway Man and unlike Lovelady in either shirt. And there's the "tug".

Well, not quite. Lovelady's shirts fit him snugly. He wore round-collar tee-shirts. The shirt on the

Doorway Man was loose fitting and had a v-neck. The shirt Oswald was wearing was loose fitting--

and he had a v-neck, not because it was a v-neck shirt by design but because he tugged at its neck.

Let me recommend that you should take a look at our study, because then it might not be "beyond you".

The whack job theories abound!

So tell us Jim, how have you proven the teeshirt in doorway man was NOT a round collar shirt?

Or is this "beyond you"?

Edited January 27, 2012 by James H. Fetzer

[Craig Lamson]

We all know what you are going to say, Lamson. You are unwavering and completely predictable. Let

those who are actually looking at the evidence scroll down to "Once more, with feeling!", where we

have Doorway Man on the left and Lovelady on the right, where above Doorway Man is Oswald. I think

anyone can see that the shirt on Doorway Man has been "touched up" but still does not resemble the

checkered shirt on Lovelady; and it is obvious that Doorway Man is not wearing the striped shirt he

(Lovelady) told the FBI he was wearing that day. But it very strongly resembles the shirt on Oswald.

Been there, done that, have seen the continued hand waving that you call proof. Once again the FETZERING continues. His answer, "I see it just believe me"

It's a pretty simple question Jim, why the obvious attempt to deflect?

So lets ask again, and given your argument RESTS on your ability to understand and analyze what you see in Altgens 6, yet another non-answer by you totally DESTROYS your entire argument...

So tell us Jim, how have you proven the teeshirt on doorway man was NOT a round collar shirt?

Edited January 27, 2012 by Craig Lamson

[Pat Speer]

Well, not quite. Lovelady's shirts fit him snugly. He wore round-collar tee-shirts. The shirt on the

Doorway Man was loose fitting and had a v-neck. The shirt Oswald was wearing was loose fitting--

and he had a v-neck, not because it was a v-neck shirt by design but because he tugged at its neck.

Let me recommend that you should take a look at our study, because then it might not be "beyond you".

This picture says it all

How anybody can look at this picture, then look at Altgens and say that Lovelady was NOT the man in the doorway is beyond me

It was Lovelady

Besides LHO was in the 2nd floor lunchroom during the assassination IMO

2 points you should consider, Jim.

1. The 'v-shape" you see on "doorway man's" T-shirt in Altgens is quite possibly the shadow of his chin.

2. The neck of Oswald's T-shirt was stretched out by the fight he'd just had with the police. I believe someone else mentioned that "doorway man's" shirt was open, and so was Oswald's. Well, Oswald's wasn't, as far as we know. Not then. The top buttons were tore off his shirt in his scuffle with the police.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Pat Speer

[Greg Burnham]

A few observations:

1) the [Altgens'] photo being studied is hardly an optimal source due to its being a copy of a copy of a copy...

2) clearly discerning what is shown at the doorway is sketchy due to the size of the image being studied even if it came from a high resolution source (but, at least then there would be a chance at clarity)

3) limitations (72k) inherent to a web browser's ability to display images further dampens the force of arguments based upon images that require SHARP resolution in order to reach a conclusion

4) if anyone has an extremely high resolution copy of Altgens 6 and would be willing to upload it to a server, such as, photo bucket for instance, others could down load it and study it without the limitations imposed by web browsers

Jim, have you studied these images after having first used a high resolution copy and without it being displayed by a web browser? If so, can you send me (us) the link to that super high resolution copy that may be downloaded?

Thanks in advance--

[Pat Speer]

A few observations:

1) the [Altgens'] photo being studied is hardly an optimal source due to its being a copy of a copy of a copy...

2) clearly discerning what is shown at the doorway is sketchy due to the size of the image being studied even if it came from a high resolution source (but, at least then there would be a chance at clarity)

3) limitations (72k) inherent to a web browser's ability to display images further dampens the force of arguments based upon images that require SHARP resolution in order to reach a conclusion

4) if anyone has an extremely high resolution copy of Altgens 6 and would be willing to upload it to a server, such as, photo bucket for instance, others could down load it and study it without the limitations imposed by web browsers

Jim, have you studied these images after having first used a high resolution copy and without it being displayed by a web browser? If so, can you send me (us) the link to that super high resolution copy that may be downloaded?

Thanks in advance--

Robin Unger has an Altgens 6 from Corbis, and has posted it both here and on his site.

Unger's Altgens Files

Edited January 27, 2012 by Pat Speer

[Richard Hocking]

For some reason, when I tried to use the link to the Bookhout report [several posts above this] I got a "this page not available" notice from the Mary Ferrell site.

So I went to and found two reports that Bookhout participated in.

The first one done on 11/23/63 is a combined report of Hosty and Bookhout:

http://history-matte...eport_0318b.htm

This first report, done the day after the assassination contains no reference to Oswald talking to Shelley. Oswald said he had lunch on the 1st floor at noon, went up to the 2nd floor to get a coke, and then after hearing what happened, he decided there would be no work performed that afternoon and went home.

The second report is Bookhout's personal report done a day or two later, on the 24th or 25th (one date appears at the top, the other at the bottom). It should be noted that the notes of the interview have been destroyed and this is a report based on those notes.:

http://history-matte...eport_0322a.htm

This report, like Fritz's notes, has its share of problems. And it creates a whole new set of contradictions with other witness testimony:

1. This version states that After the encounter with Baker on the 2nd floor (12:31), Oswald went down to the 1st floor, "stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room". In the first report (the combined Hosty/Bookhout report above) Oswald is quoted as saying he had lunch at noon. So a day or two later, Bookhout has Oswald eating lunch after 12:30 instead of the earlier time of 12:00 in the first interview. Then the report continues (to the #2 below)

2. "He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman BILL [last name difficult to read.] and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of BILL [again the last name appears smudged or re-typed but you can basically make out enough to assume it is SHELLEY], he did not believe there was going to be any more work that day..."

So if you give Oswald 5-10 minutes to eat lunch, another 5-10 minutes to stand around and talk with Shelley on the front steps, Oswald is now leaving the TSBD at 12:42 - 12:52. This version would also put Oswald on the entrance steps for several minutes right around the same time that Brennan and Euins are giving the Police their descriptions of the guy they saw in the SE corner window. And how about the WC estimated time of LHO leaving the TSBD (12:33)?

3. Shelley gave two versions of what he did after the shots were fired.

A.) 11/22/63: Ran across the street; talked to Gloria Calvery; went back into the TSBD; called his wife; went to guard the back elevator; went upstairs with the Police to search.

http://jfk.ci.dallas...28/2877-001.gif

B.) WC testimony April 7, 1964, beginning here: http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page329.php

Brief summary of related points [by me]:

- Truly and an officer (Baker) went into the TSBD " 3 or 4 minutes" after Shelley had talked to Calvery.

- Then Walked at a fast walk down to the railroad yards accompanied by Lovelady, stayed for about a minute and a half, and walked slowly back to the TSBD.

[by this account, it is now 7 - 10 minutes after the shooting - RH]

- re-entered the TSBD through a West entrance, and goes to guard the elevator.

- Never saw Oswald after lunch

Neither version of Shelley's testimony agrees with Bookhout's assertion that LHO said he and Shelley talked for 5 minutes on the steps. Both of Bookhout's accounts are contradicted by Vicky Adams, who saw Shelley and Lovelady at the 1st floor elevators as soon as she arrived on the first floor.. Baker also reported seeing 2 men by the NW elevators, less than 90 seconds after shots were fired. The report that includes Shelley contradicts the WC timeline, the Testimony of Baker, Truly, and Adams. It is every bit as suspect (if not more so) than Fritz's notes.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Richard Hocking

[Pat Speer]

For some reason, when I tried to use the link to the Bookhout report [several posts above this] I got a "this page not available" notice from the Mary Ferrell site.

So I went to and found two reports that Bookhout participated in.

The first one done on 11/23/63 is a combined report of Hosty and Bookhout:

http://history-matte...eport_0318b.htm

This first report, done the day after the assassination contains no reference to Oswald talking to Shelley. Oswald said he had lunch on the 1st floor at noon, went up to the 2nd floor to get a coke, and then after hearing what happened, he decided there would be no work performed that afternoon and went home.

The second report is Bookhout's personal report done a day or two later, on the 24th or 25th (one date appears at the top, the other at the bottom). It should be noted that the notes of the interview have been destroyed and this is a report based on those notes.:

http://history-matte...eport_0322a.htm

This report, like Fritz's notes, has its share of problems. And it creates a whole new set of contradictions with other witness testimony:

1. This version states that After the encounter with Baker on the 2nd floor (12:31), Oswald went down to the 1st floor, "stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room". In the first report (the combined Hosty/Bookhout report above) Oswald is quoted as saying he had lunch at noon. So a day or two later, Bookhout has Oswald eating lunch after 12:30 instead of the earlier time of 12:00 in the first interview. Then the report continues (to the #2 below)

2. "He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman BILL [last name difficult to read.] and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of BILL [again the last name appears smudged or re-typed but you can basically make out enough to assume it is SHELLEY], he did not believe there was going to be any more work that day..."

So if you give Oswald 5-10 minutes to eat lunch, another 5-10 minutes to stand around and talk with Shelley on the front steps, Oswald is now leaving the TSBD at 12:42 - 12:52. This version would also put Oswald on the entrance steps for several minutes right around the same time that Brennan and Euins are giving the Police their descriptions of the guy they saw in the SE corner window. And how about the WC estimated time of LHO leaving the TSBD (12:33)?

3. Shelley gave two versions of what he did after the shots were fired.

A.) 11/22/63: Ran across the street; talked to Gloria Calvery; went back into the TSBD; called his wife; went to guard the back elevator; went upstairs with the Police to search.

http://jfk.ci.dallas...28/2877-001.gif

B.) WC testimony April 7, 1964, beginning here: http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page329.php

Brief summary of related points [by me]:

- Truly and an officer (Baker) went into the TSBD " 3 or 4 minutes" after Shelley had talked to Calvery.

- Then Walked at a fast walk down to the railroad yards accompanied by Lovelady, stayed for about a minute and a half, and walked slowly back to the TSBD.

[by this account, it is now 7 - 10 minutes after the shooting - RH]

- re-entered the TSBD through a West entrance, and goes to guard the elevator.

- Never saw Oswald after lunch

Neither version of Shelley's testimony agrees with Bookhout's assertion that LHO said he and Shelley talked for 5 minutes on the steps. Both of Bookhout's accounts are contradicted by Vicky Adams, who saw Shelley and Lovelady at the 1st floor elevators as soon as she arrived on the first floor.. Baker also reported seeing 2 men by the NW elevators, less than 90 seconds after shots were fired. The report that includes Shelley contradicts the WC timeline, the Testimony of Baker, Truly, and Adams. It is every bit as suspect (if not more so) than Fritz's notes.

No one said you had to believe Bookhout's version of events. His version of events are purportedly based on Oswald's version of events. Even if he was innocent, we have NO reason to assume Oswald told the truth in these interviews.

Bookhout's report does support, however, that the reference in Fritz's notes to going outside with Shelley is a reference to going outside with Shelley AFTER the shots.

Bookhout's Report

Are you trying to push that Fritz's notes are the real deal, and Bookhout's report a total fraud, and that Bookhout's mentioning of Oswald's going outside with Shelley was part of a plan to hide that Oswald really said he'd been outside with Shelley during the shooting?

Because, IF so, you still need to answer the question I've already raised. WHY would they try to hide that Oswald said he was outside during the shooting, when they have MULTIPLE witnesses claiming he was not outside? WHY would they say he said he was alone in the break room, where NO ONE could contradict him, if he'd really said he was somewhere they could PROVE he wasn't?

The whole scenario makes no sense, Richard.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Pat Speer

[Craig Lamson]

A few observations:

3) limitations (72k) inherent to a web browser's ability to display images further dampens the force of arguments based upon images that require SHARP resolution in order to reach a conclusion

Thanks in advance--

Lets deal with this myth first....

The web can display images...pixel for pixel.. equal with a high rez image that is viewed in a application such as Photoshop etc.

Lets review.

We have an image, in this case a sample from my files. I have downsampled it to about a bit less than half size to make it manageable. Not that it matters this works regardless of the size of the file.

In Photoshop the image size is:

1666 pixels by 2500 pixels

or

5.553 inches by 8.333 inches AT 300DPI.

Now we can change the dpi to 72 from 300 WITHOUT RESCALING THE IMAGE...which gives us an image like this.

1666 pixels by 2500 pixels

or

23.139 INCHES by 34.722 INCHES AT 72 DPI.

Its the very same image and it contains the exact same number of pixels.

So what happens when we put this image on the web? Does the it magically change just because it is displayed on the web?

OF COURSE NOT!

Here is that image posted to the web. (be sure to click on it to show it full size)

http://www.craiglamson.com/72dpitest.png

When you have it enlarged, copy it and paste it into Photoshop, or save it as a png ( do NOT save it as a jpg)

Then download the same image from my ftp site.

I've created a folder for this test, it will stay active until this time tomorrow.

The address: (everything is case sensitive)

ftp.craiglamson.com

Username:

jfk@craiglamson.com

Password:

edforum

When you have downloaded the image, layer it in Photoshop with the image you copied from the website above. They will be a PIXEL FOR PIXEL MATCH.

So much for Burnham and his 72 dpi myth....

Edited January 27, 2012 by Craig Lamson

[Richard Hocking]

No one said you had to believe Bookhout's version of events. His version of events are purportedly based on Oswald's version of events. Even if he was innocent, we have NO reason to assume Oswald told the truth in these interviews.

Bookhout's report does support, however, that the reference in Fritz's notes to going outside with Shelley is a reference to going outside with Shelley AFTER the shots.

Bookhout's Report

Are you trying to push that Fritz's notes are the real deal, and Bookhout's report a total fraud, and that Bookhout's mentioning of Oswald's going outside with Shelley was part of a plan to hide that Oswald really said he'd been outside with Shelley during the shooting?

Because, IF so, you still need to answer the question I've already raised. WHY would they try to hide that Oswald said he was outside during the shooting, when they have MULTIPLE witnesses claiming he was not outside? WHY would they say he said he was alone in the break room, where NO ONE could contradict him, if he'd really said he was somewhere they could PROVE he wasn't?

The whole scenario makes no sense, Richard.

Pat, I feel LHO being out in front at the time of the shooting is still an open issue, and certainly has not been disproved. Oswald being in the lunchroom earlier does not preclude his presence outside the entrance at the time of the motorcade. I am leaving the Altgen's photo discussion in the hands of others.

My original point was that the timeline sightings of Oswald allow for the possibility that he may have been out front of the entrance at the time of the shooting.

IMO, Fritz's interview note has a supportive statement when LHO says he was with Shelley (I gave several reasons why in my first post).

The counterpoint suggested by several posters was that Bookhout's report showed that the Oswald/Shelley encounter occured later, (after LHO is reportedly seen on the 2nd floor by Baker & Truly). The implication was that the 2nd Bookhout report was more reliable than Fritz's notes.

That is when I made the post about Bookhout's two reports, and the fact that Bookhout report of the 24th contradicts the Bookhout/Hosty report of the 23rd, regarding what Oswald reputedly said. The fact that Bookhout appears to have changed Oswald's answers is suspicious. Bookhout also introduced new elements in the 2nd report, regarding the Shelley timeline that look like they are there to revise the timing of Shelley and Lovelady being by the 1st floor elevator.

Fritz's notes are suspect, but on a scale, I would rate their credibility above a 2nd generation FBI report that appears to have been retro-fitted with new and changed remarks attributed to Oswald.