Was Oswald an MKULTRA Programmed Patsy?

[William Kelly]

BK: We know Oswald was connected to a number of other operations- including the U2, the Defectors Program, Wringer, Paperclip and JMWAVE (via the DRE & FPCC), so it would not be surprising to find him connected to other operations as well, especially one like MKULTRA.

Len: How exactly was LHO "connected to...[Operation] Paperclip"? and what ties did he have to U2 other than being a radar operator at Astugi.

BK: Oswald was connected to Paperclip by way of the defense contactors who he associated with upon his return from USSR- including those who worked for General Dynamics, Bell Hel and Collins Radio, all companies that hired Paperclip personnel. Oswald was extensively debriefed by an executive from General Dynamics, Oswald's family was cared for by Michael Paine of Bell Hel and DeMohrenschildt introduced him to former Adml. Chester Bruton of Collins Radio.

Len: I assume the "executive from General Dynamics" you referred to was Max Clark,according to WCR their only contact was that LHO contacted him seemingly about a job. If indeed you meant Clark do you have evidence he actually "debriefed" LHO. Did Clark or whomever you were talking about have any contact with the Paperclip folks?

BK: Yes, Oswald and Marina, while living at the home of the women who got Oswald the job at the Leslie Welding and Jaggers/Chiles/Stoval when she was out of town, and then in the hospital, hosted Clark and his wife for dinner, during which Clark interrogated Oswald about his time in USSR for two hours, which qualifies as a debriefing in my book.

LHO's contact with Bruton seems to have beenlimited to a brief and acrimonious exchange by the latter's pool. Do you believe it went beyond that? Collins connection to Paperclip was Alexander Lippisch who worked at the company's Cedar Rapids(Iowa) HQ over 800 miles from Dallas

BK: Yes, DeMohrn took Marina to Bruton's home to use the pool and Oswald showed up and had lunch with them, including Bruton, who DeMohrn tried to get to hire Oswald at Collins, after all he did work at a radio factory in Minsk, but Oswald insulted Bruton, a Navy lifer, and Oz didn't get the job. As for Lippisch, he was the Nazi scientist who helped develop the jet engine and was assigned to work on the aerodynamics of a shallow water attack boat for the Cubans that was later used in Vietnam. The fact that he was working out of Cedar Rapids puts him near where the Collins Radio relay station was located that handled AF1 and SAC radio calls. All I said was that Collins had Paperclip connections, and they do.

Quote

BK: Oswald was associated with the U2 in Japan not only as aradar operator, which permitted him to know the altitude and speed of the plane, he was also familiar with the call signs, codes, etc., and served as aguard, as all U2 security in that area at the time was handled by Ed Wilson,who later exposed the existence of the previously unknown ONI Task Force and became a famous renegade CIA officer

Len: What are your sources for these claims. I doubt a lowly radar operator wouldhave been privy to such details:

BK: For Oswald's info on U2 and radar info see the WC testimony of his commander Donovan.

• the evidence suggests the KGB had no interest in what he had to offer

BK: Because they already had the info, not because they weren't interested.

• the plane was specially designed to be invisible to radar

BK: The U2 was not STEALTH, or invisible to radar, it just flew above standard radar.

• primary radar doesn't provide altitude or speed data, though I assume thelatter could calculated based on the time a target took to travel from onepoint to another. Secondary radar provides this info but only works if thetarget that has functioning transponder, an unlikely accessory for a planedesigned to be invisible to radar. I'm not even sure secondary radar existed atthe time.

• even at its max. operating altitude and assuming a best case scenario - theU-2 would have been beyond Atsugi's radar range when it was about 300 miles from the base. It is reasonable to assume it would have avoided operating atits maximum capabilities with range of radar facilities capable of tracking it.

Len: I've never seen the claim LHO "served as aguard" before, what is source? Do you have any evidence he had contact with Wilson?

BK: Oswald served as a guard at the same time another guard was killed while on duty - either murder or an accident. I don't have any evidence Oswald had contact with Wilson, though Wilson was responsible for U2 base security in the area while Oswald was a guard.

Quote The Zapruder film of the assassination also connected to the U2 program as it was taken twice to the CIA'sNPIC, where the U2 photos were reviewed and analyzed.

Len: And you consider that an LHO - intel"connection"

BK: You are right, since Oswald wasn't the Sixth Floor Sniper, the Z-film does not contain any information that would relate to Oswald, the Patsy, even though it was analyzed at NPIC, where the U2 photos and film were also reviewed. No Oswald connection there.

BK

JFKcountercoup: Tale of the Tapes - By Vincent Salandria

Edited February 1, 2012 by William Kelly

[David S. Brownlee]

If Oswald was a programmed patsy, why did he need to be eliminated in such seemingly desperate fashion? They saw no need to eliminate any of the subsequent programmed patsies (Sirhan, Bremer, Chapman, Hinckley), they were just considered lone nuts, to be institutionalized, ignored and forgotten.

It's just my opinion...but could it be that it was their first really big one and relatively poorly planned...they panicked.

Most criminals improve at their craft with time (if they stay out of jail). After JFK I think there were a lot of "lessons learned". Keep it as simple as possible - more compartmentalization - minimize risk (no long shots).

I think they learned that the idea of counting on snipers from any real distance was foolhardy - too many variables. I have argued before that the sniper from the TSBD or thereabouts probably made what he felt was a perfect shot. The "miss" was totally predictable in hindsight (bullets still drop even when shooting downhill and the car was slowly moving to the left..therfore a perfect shot became a few inches low and a couple inches to the right).

It may also be that while Oswald was a patsy - he wasn't a truly programmed patsy as has been stated before. They basically had five years to work on that skill before it was necessary to use Sirhan.

[Len Colby]

BK: We know Oswald was connected to a number of other operations- including the U2, the Defectors Program, Wringer, Paperclip and JMWAVE (via the DRE & FPCC), so it would not be surprising to find him connected to other operations as well, especially one like MKULTRA.

Len: How exactly was LHO "connected to...[Operation] Paperclip"? and what ties did he have to U2 other than being a radar operator at Astugi.

BK: Oswald was connected to Paperclip by way of the defense contactors who he associated with upon his return from USSR- including those who worked for General Dynamics, Bell Hel and Collins Radio, all companies that hired Paperclip personnel. Oswald was extensively debriefed by an executive from General Dynamics, Oswald's family was cared for by Michael Paine of Bell Hel and DeMohrenschildt introduced him to former Adml. Chester Bruton of Collins Radio.

Len: I assume the "executive from General Dynamics" you referred to was Max Clark,according to WCR their only contact was that LHO contacted him seemingly about a job. If indeed you meant Clark do you have evidence he actually "debriefed" LHO. Did Clark or whomever you were talking about have any contact with the Paperclip folks?

BK: Yes, Oswald and Marina, while living at the home of the women who got Oswald the job at the Leslie Welding and Jaggers/Chiles/Stoval when she was out of town, and then in the hospital, hosted Clark and his wife for dinner, during which Clark interrogated Oswald about his time in USSR for two hours, which qualifies as a debriefing in my book.

*

LEN FEB.1: Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe the only person who spoke about this was DeMohrenschildt:

From his WC testimony:

This Bruton was quite a hero in the war you know and he immediately sensed that Oswald was a revolutionary character you see and no good. He sensed that, being a military man you see. I think he asked him a few questions “is it true that you were in the Marine Corps?” And Oswald made kind of a sour face about the Marine Corps. So it was very short and very unpleasant interview because the admiral left you know, and his wife, being a kind person, stayed there for a while you know, and then we took the Oswalds back again.

From I am a Patsy:

But this day he [bruton] greeted everybody and began talking disgustedly of his new job with Collins Raido, actually an important position he took after his early retirement from the Navy. He did not like the commercial aspects of his work. "I should have stayed in the Navy a bit longer," he said irritably, "I am make to be a salesman."

Then he began talking army to Lee, asking him about his duties in the Marine Corps - but my friend remained cool and aloof - although Henri [bruton] was kind and continued chatting amicably. "That Marine Corps was the most miserable period in my life," he said disgustedly. "Stupid work, ignorant companions, abusive officers. Boy, was I happy to have gotten out of it. To hell with the Navy."

Here I saw for the first time his profound dislike for the military and especially for the brass. The term "admiral" irritated him.

"He is somewhat of a rebel and a little bit a Marxist," I told the admiral, trying to smooth over the disagreeable incident.

LHO's contact with Bruton seems to have been limited to a brief and acrimonious exchange by the latter's pool. Do you believe it went beyond that? Collins connection to Paperclip was Alexander Lippisch who worked at the company's Cedar Rapids(Iowa) HQ over 800 miles from Dallas

BK: Yes, DeMohrn took Marina to Bruton's home to use the pool and Oswald showed up and had lunch with them, including Bruton, who DeMohrn tried to get to hire Oswald at Collins, after all he did work at a radio factory in Minsk, but Oswald insulted Bruton, a Navy lifer, and Oz didn't get the job. As for Lippisch, he was the Nazi scientist who helped develop the jet engine and was assigned to work on the aerodynamics of a shallow water attack boat for the Cubans that was later used in Vietnam. The fact that he was working out of Cedar Rapids puts him near where the Collins Radio relay station was located that handled AF1 and SAC radio calls. All I said was that Collins had Paperclip connections, and they do.

LEN FEB.1: So Oswald’s Paperclip “connection” in this case was that he had a brief and acrimonious exchange (not a debriefing) with a retired Admiral who was unhappily working as a sort of salesman for a company that at the same time employed a former ‘Nazi’ scientist in another office over 800 miles away. You don’t even have any evidence Bruton and Lippisch had any contact. You’re stretching more than Suzanne Summers and Richard Simmons put together.

BK: “All I said was that Collins had Paperclip connections, and they do”

No you said “Oswald was connected to Paperclip by way of the defense contactors… including those who worked for General Dynamics, Bell Hel and COLLINS RADIO”. A student of mine introduced me to a friend of his who owned a Chrysler dealership because he was interested in English classes but it turns out he didn’t have enough time. But by your “logic” I’m connected to the executives in Sao Paulo and perhaps even Lee Iacocca.

QUOTE

BK: Oswald was associated with the U2 in Japan not only as a radar operator, which permitted him to know the altitude and speed of the plane, he was also familiar with the call signs, codes, etc., and served as aguard, as all U2 security in that area at the time was handled by Ed Wilson,who later exposed the existence of the previously unknown ONI Task Force and became a famous renegade CIA officer

Len: What are your sources for these claims. I doubt a lowly radar operator would have been privy to such details:

BK: For Oswald's info on U2 and radar info see the WC testimony of his commander Donovan.

LEN FEB.1: Donovan was his OIC in Santa Ana near El Toro, neither of which seem to have been U2 bases.

http://www.ais.org/~schnars/aero/ol-det.htm

He told the WC:

...I recall that he was gone for some period of time, and shortly before I got out of the Marine Corps, which was mid-December 1959, we received word that he had showed up in Moscow. This necessitated a lot of change of aircraft call signs, codes, radio frequencies, radar frequencies.

He had the access to the location of all bases in the west coast area, all radio frequencies for all squadrons, all tactical call signs, and the relative strength of all squadrons, number and type of aircraft in a squadron, who was the commanding officer, the authentication code of entering and exiting the ADIZ, which stands for Air Defense Identification Zone. He knew the range of our radar. He knew the range of our radio. And he knew the range of the surrounding units' radio and radar.

If you had asked me a month after I left that area, I could not have told you any but our own. Had I wanted to record them, I certainly could have secretly, and taken them with me. Unless he intentionally with malice aforethought wrote them down, I doubt if he wonts have been able to recall them a month later, either.

[…]

Mr. ELY. Are authentication codes changed from time to time as a matter of course?

Mr. DONOVAN. They are changed from time to time, that is right.

Mr. ELY. Are they changed even if there is no specific incident which elicits the change?

Mr. DONOVAN. They are methodically changed anyway. There are some things which he knew on which he received instruction that there is no way of changing, such as the MPS 16 height-finder radar gear. That had recently been integrated into the Marine Corps system. It had a height-finding range far in excess of our previous equipment, and it has certain limitations. He had been schooled on those limitations.

It cannot operate above a given altitude in setting--in other words, you cannot place the thing above a given terrain height.

He had also been schooled on a piece of machinery called a TPX-1, which is used to transfer radio---radar and radio signals over a great distance. Radar is very susceptible to homing missiles, and this piece of equipment is used to put your radar antenna several miles away, and relay the information back to your site which you hope is relatively safe. He had been schooled on this. And that kind of stuff you cannot change.

So even assuming he had access to the same info in Japan, your claim his service there “permitted him to know the altitude and speed of the plane” remains unlikely and unsupported. Though it’s probably true “he was also familiar with the call signs, codes, etc” most of that was changed when he showed up in Russia. In any case none of this really qualified him as an intel op,

• the evidence suggests the KGB had no interest in what he had to offer

BK: Because they already had the info, not because they weren't interested.

• the plane was specially designed to be invisible to radar

BK: The U2 was not STEALTH, or invisible to radar, it just flew above standard radar.

LEN FEB.1: You’re right my bad, I was thinking about the A-12

• primary radar doesn't provide altitude or speed data, though I assume the latter could calculated based on the time a target took to travel from onepoint to another. Secondary radar provides this info but only works if the target that has functioning transponder, an unlikely accessory for a plane designed to be invisible to radar. I'm not even sure secondary radar existed at the time. • even at its max. operating altitude and assuming a best case scenario - theU-2 would have been beyond Atsugi's radar range when it was about 300 miles from the base. It is reasonable to assume it would have avoided operating at its maximum capabilities with range of radar facilities capable of tracking it.

LEN FEB.1: Your dodging of the above is duly noted

Len: I've never seen the claim LHO "served as a guard" before, what is source? Do you have any evidence he had contact with Wilson?

BK: Oswald served as a guard at the same time another guard was killed while on duty - either murder or an accident. I don't have any evidence Oswald had contact with Wilson, though Wilson was responsible for U2 base security in the area while Oswald was a guard.

LEN FEB.1: It seems he pulled guard duty which not quite the same as being a full time guard, neither qualifies as an “intel connection”

Quote The Zapruder film of the assassination also connected to the U2 program as it was taken twice to the CIA'sNPIC, where the U2 photos were reviewed and analyzed.

Len: And you consider that an LHO - intel"connection"

BK: You are right, since Oswald wasn't the Sixth Floor Sniper, the Z-film does not contain any information that would relate to Oswald, the Patsy, even though it was analyzed at NPIC, where the U2 photos and film were also reviewed. No Oswald connection there.

LEN FEB.1: Sorry even if LHO was in an area filmed by Zapruder, the film being “analyzed at NPIC” doesn’t qualify as an Oswald “intel connection” any more than millions of people having photos or films of them developed by Kodak connected them to that company. Jonathan Richman had photos he took of the Velvet Underground printed a lab I worked at, I even printed extra copies for myself, that doesn’t mean I’m ‘connected’ to him or them.

EDIT - Formatting

Edited February 1, 2012 by Len Colby

[David Andrews]

Nagell mentioned in one of his comic-cryptic letters that Oswald was kept under a course of hypnosis by "Harry de Fairy," presumably David Ferrie.

But I think this is a deliberate blind alley by Nagell.

Nagell also told Dick Russell that researchers should make no mistake about Oswald, as he was "in it up to his neck" (the assassination plotting), which implies volition.

I suspect that Oswald, in his "Lefty Lee" impersonation, performed a number of self-incriminating acts that would establish him as Kennedy's assassin. His motives remain unclear, though I think he believed he would be leaving the US, not that he would be arrested as the patsy. Further impersonations of Oswald cemented the patsy-making process.

Just to amplify this in light of other people's posts:

I suspect that Oswald was a spy from a family of military-intel spies: John Pic, Robert Oswald.

I wouldn't doubt that attempts were made, and even ongoing conditioning performed, to remake Oswald as a "Manchurian Candidate"-type assassin, or else to make him more suitable for his false-defector role. I do doubt that these efforts worked.

Oswald looks like a man committed to an agenda of playing "Lefty Lee" to the hilt, following orders for motives of his own, which remain unknown, beyond simple patriotism or the desire to be a Herbert Philbrick-type. He also looks lika a guy who had conditioned himself to endure a lot and let it roll off his back, from poverty and bad reputation to, perhaps, mind control techniques. Would he not have been trained to endure interrogation and avoid mind control before "defecting?"

The great question is: what were Oswald's allegiances? The idea that he was an unsung American hero has reached romanticized proportions. I tend to trust Richard Nagell's statement that Oswald was "in it up to his neck," which I take to mean that he was either anti-Kennedy, or anti-communist enough, to be part of the plotting. The alternative is that Oswald's cover was so deep, that Nagell - no amateur - couldn't penetrate it.

Either view - Oswald Hero, Oswald Conspirator - has its rationales for explaining why Oswald participated in his own incrimination (a point on which I repectfully disagree with Larry Hancock). Oswald's jailhouse smirk is the Mona Lisa smile of the twentieth century, concealing much, advertising the unknown. But that quaver in his voice at midnight, when the reporters tell him he has been charged in Kennedy's murder, opens a different panel. Had he expected to be meeting Raul Castro instead of Henry Wade at that hour?

I would love to hear Dick Russell's take on Nagell's understanding of Oswald, and also Russell's own.

Edited February 1, 2012 by David Andrews

[Pamela Brown]

We know Oswald was connected to a number of other operations - including the U2, the Defectors Program, Wringer, Paperclip and JMWAVE (via the DRE & FPCC), so it would not be surprising to find him connected to other operations as well, especially one like MKULTRA.

How exactly was LHO "connected to...[Operation] Paperclip"? and what ties did he have to U2 other than being a radar operator atr Astugi?

Oswald was connected to Paperclip by way of the defense contactors who he associated with upon his return from USSR - including those who worked for General Dynamics, Bell Hel and Collins Radio, all companies that hired Paperclip personnel. Oswald was extensively debriefed by an executive from General Dynamics, Oswald's family was cared for by Michael Paine of Bell Hel and DeMohrenschildt introduced him to former Adml. Chester Bruton of Collins Radio.

What are your sources for these claims. I doubt a lowly radar operator would have been privy to such details:

• the evidence suggests the KGB had no interest in what he had to offer

• the plane was specially designed to be invisible to radar

• primary radar doesn’t provide altitude or speed data, though I assume the latter could calculated based on the time a target took to travel from one point to another. Secondary radar provides this info but only works if the target that has functioning transponder, an unlikely accessory for a plane designed to be invisible to radar. I’m not even sure secondary radar existed at the time.

• even at its max. operating altitude and assuming a best case scenario - the U-2 would have been beyond Atsugi’s radar range when it was about 300 miles from the base. It is reasonable to assume it would have avoided operating at its maximum capabilities with range of radar facilities capable of tracking it.

[...]

And you consider that an LHO - intel "connection"

Not quite.

The impression the KGB wanted the US to have was that LHO had nothing to offer and was of no interest to them. That, however, is suspect, especially considering the series of odd coincidences that occurred. LHO 'defected', proclaimed to Snyder he had secrets to give the Soviets, some months later Powers' U-2 was shot down in the most humiliating diplomatic fiasco in US history; then LHO claimed to have seen Powers in Moscow during his trial, so he may have been brought there as some sort of reward for what he had contributed. Let's not also forget that Powers himself seemed to think LHO had something to do with his U-2 being shot down.

Oddly, the WC defender position is the same as that of the KGB.

Nosenko, of course, was not part of the inner KGB, so, though he told the 'truth' of what he knew, which just happened to coincide with what the KGB position was and what it thought the US wanted to hear, that was not the whole story.

[Thomas Graves]

If Oswald was a programmed patsy, why did he need to be eliminated in such seemingly desperate fashion? They saw no need to eliminate any of the subsequent programmed patsies (Sirhan, Bremer, Chapman, Hinckley), they were just considered lone nuts, to be institutionalized, ignored and forgotten.

OK, Ron. Maybe "They" were just afraid Oswald would somehow come out of the spell the'd cast on him and "spill the beans". Maybe he was already showing signs of coming out of it. Maybe they didn't need to liquidate Sirhan, Bremer, Chapman, or Hinckley because by that time they'd perfected their arcane art(s)...

--Tommy

Here's an interesting CIA document about the agency's use of hypnosis in "certain operational situations". Down towards the bottom it says something about Mexico City during the summer of 1963...

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=422760

--Tommy

Edited February 3, 2012 by Thomas Graves

[Guest Robert Morrow]

I think there's a chance but there's no smoking gun (either evidence or even motive)

to make this stick. First of all, he didn't do anything that unusual (except part of his alleged

odyssey after the hit) and most of his actions were just following orders. After his arrest

he acted relatively normally but we'll never know because he was silenced rather quickly.

More likely a Programmed Patsy than assassin.

We know Oswald was connected to a number of other operations - including the U2, the Defectors Program, Wringer, Paperclip and JMWAVE (via the DRE & FPCC), so it would not be surprising to find him connected to other operations as well, especially one like MKULTRA.

Oswald, while in New Orleans in the summer of '63, did read Huxley's Doors of Perception and asked an assist DA on the legality of LSD, and Dr. Jose Rivera (USAR) was most certainly connected to MKULTRA while working on Top Secret project at Fort Detrich, MD, and he is suspected of using drugs and hypnotic suggestion techniques on Adele E, and appears to have had foreknowledge of Oswald's involvement in the Walker shooting.

So it seems like Oswald was connected to the MKULTRA project in a way that struck his interest and the interest of the doctors who had access to his records (like Rivera).

The story in the London Sunday Times documented the Navy and USMC use of the MMPI test to select recruits for training as killers and assassins, and Oswald just happened to have the personality profile they were looking for, and Oswald is known to have taken the test under Herzog and while in the USMC.

Both DeMohrenschildt and Volkmar Schmidt planted the seed in Oswald's mind about the Valkyrie Plot to kill Hitler, how the world history would have been different if it succeeded and suggested the same thing happen to Walker, an idea that Oswald seems to have manifested into his reality, but there is no indication that Oswald was crazy or ever exhibited psychotic or violent intentions.

Oswald was not however, the lone wolf assassin that is portrayed in the Day of the Jackal movie,who is thwarted from assassinating DeGaul, nor is he the triggernan in a much wider assassination and coup, who would have more reliable snipers, which means that it is more likely he was the Patsy, as it is probably easier to program someone to do a series of small things and set them up as the fall guy than it is to get them to do the really hard thing - like killing the President.

BK

For more on London Sunday Times story:

Center/Study of Political Assassinations

Bill Kelly,

What are the best books and easily accessible article on the internet about Lee Harvey Oswald's US intelligence connections? Here are some of the ones I give out, please give me some more references

1) "Oswald and the CIA" book by John Newman

2) "Spy Saga: Lee Harvey Oswald and US Intelligence" book by Philip Melanson

3) "History Will Not Absolve Us" by Martin Schotz (Chapter 5 "Oswald and U.S. Intelligence" by Christopher Sharrett)

4) "Me and Lee" book by Judyth Vary Baker (Oswald's mistress in New Orleans, summer 1963)

5) Google “Lee Harvey Oswald’s reading habits summer 1963” by Judyth Vary Baker

I guess I should add George Michael Evica's http://www.amazon.com/Certain-Arrogance-Intelligences-Manipulation-Individuals/dp/1413464777

[Len Colby]

What are your sources for these claims. I doubt a lowly radar operator would have been privy to such details:

• the evidence suggests the KGB had no interest in what he had to offer

• the plane was specially designed to be invisible to radar

• primary radar doesn’t provide altitude or speed data, though I assume the latter could calculated based on the time a target took to travel from one point to another. Secondary radar provides this info but only works if the target that has functioning transponder, an unlikely accessory for a plane designed to be invisible to radar. I’m not even sure secondary radar existed at the time.

• even at its max. operating altitude and assuming a best case scenario - the U-2 would have been beyond Atsugi’s radar range when it was about 300 miles from the base. It is reasonable to assume it would have avoided operating at its maximum capabilities with range of radar facilities capable of tracking it.

[...]

And you consider that an LHO - intel "connection"

Not quite.

The impression the KGB wanted the US to have was that LHO had nothing to offer and was of no interest to them. That, however, is suspect, especially considering the series of odd coincidences that occurred. LHO 'defected', proclaimed to Snyder he had secrets to give the Soviets, some months later Powers' U-2 was shot down in the most humiliating diplomatic fiasco in US history; then LHO claimed to have seen Powers in Moscow during his trial, so he may have been brought there as some sort of reward for what he had contributed. Let's not also forget that Powers himself seemed to think LHO had something to do with his U-2 being shot down.

Oddly, the WC defender position is the same as that of the KGB.

Nosenko, of course, was not part of the inner KGB, so, though he told the 'truth' of what he knew, which just happened to coincide with what the KGB position was and what it thought the US wanted to hear, that was not the whole story.

Whether or not LHO gave the USSR information that helped them shoot down the U-2 doesn’t really fit any one assassination theory better (or worse) than any other except for ones based on the assumption he a US intel. op. The last thing the CIA wanted was to loose use of the plane over the USSR before alternates were ready, film retrieval from Corona was not perfected till August 1960, more than 3 months after the shoot it was not until the mid-60s that satellites came close to matching the resolution the U-2 had in the late-50s*. Nor presumably would they have wanted to embarrass the administration when Nixon obviously was going to be the GOP nominee. People have argued this was done to sabotage the Paris conference but the CIA could done this in less damaging ways such as feeding Ike fake intel. LHO actually having fed such critical info to the Russians would fit well with him being an LNT public discloser of this would have served to vilify him.

* http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB186/index.htm

What we are lacking 50 plus years later is any solid evidence LHO had access to such information let alone that he passed it on to the Soviets. Much of the KGB and other Soviet archives from that period have been open to historians for decades but AFIAK no one has turned any documents supporting the notion LHO provided any useful intel. Nor seemingly have any former officials indicated he had, thought we do have several who said otherwise.

Nor am I aware of any credible American military intel veterans other than Powers who said he would had access to such information. What the pilot might not have known was that radar at the time seems not to have been able to give height information above 10,000 feet,* even today primary ATC radar doesn’t provide height data and secondary radar only does so if the target (plane) has a transponder programed to do so turned on but U-2’s were supposed to maintain strict radio silence till they were coming in for landing. It is also quite probable the plane would have been out of Atsugi’s radar range by the time it reached it maximum height. According to a former Marine Intelligence officer who served in MCAS -1 Atsugi shortly before Oswald and spent 27 years researching supposed assassin’s service in Japan:

Members of MACS-1, including Oswald, did not control the U-2 Aircraft in Atsugi. Control of these aircraft rested with the personnel of the U-2 Program. Security was handled by their members and the unit was commanded by an Air Force Colonel. The U-2’s checked with MACS-1 before take-offs and reported an Estimated Time of Arrival. Once airborne, there was radio silence. Members of MAG-11 provided flight line security and crash crew rescue teams.

FWIW I had the following e-mail exchange with his son:

Dear Mr. Powers

I was wondering what you views were regarding theories that the Soviets were able to shoot your father’s plane down due information supplied to them by Lee Harvey Oswald. I thought I saw an article or interview where you commented on this on the Cold War Museum site but was unable to find it via Google search.

Len

Yes, it is very possible and my father did believe that LHO provide the Soviets with info on the altitude that the U-2s flew when he defected. However, I have not yet found any evidence to confirm this.

Gary

Have you looked into this? I ask because you wrote had "not yet found any evidence to confirm this", which made it sound as if you had looked.

I am not even sure he tracked the U2s, source give contradictory information regarding this.

Len

I have looked into it but have never found any evidence that proves that LHO gave the Soviet the altitude info of the U-2 though it makes sense that he did. LHO was a radar operator and tracked U-2 flights.

Gary

* EDIT - Factual error radar at the time could detect height to 75,000 feet

Edited February 8, 2012 by Len Colby

[Thomas Graves]

If Oswald was a programmed patsy, why did he need to be eliminated in such seemingly desperate fashion? They saw no need to eliminate any of the subsequent programmed patsies (Sirhan, Bremer, Chapman, Hinckley), they were just considered lone nuts, to be institutionalized, ignored and forgotten.

OK, Ron. Maybe "They" were just afraid Oswald would somehow come out of the spell the'd cast on him and "spill the beans". Maybe he was already showing signs of coming out of it. Maybe they didn't need to liquidate Sirhan, Bremer, Chapman, or Hinckley because by that time they'd perfected their arcane art(s)...

--Tommy

Here's an interesting 1978 CIA document regarding the then-recent "discovery" of ZRALERT documents and the agency's use of hypnosis in "certain operational situations". Down towards the bottom of page two it says something about Mexico City during the summer of 1963.

HMMMMMM...... [3 pages]

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=26123&relPageId=1

--Tommy

bump

Edited February 4, 2012 by Thomas Graves

[William Kelly]

I think there's a chance but there's no smoking gun (either evidence or even motive)

to make this stick. First of all, he didn't do anything that unusual (except part of his alleged

odyssey after the hit) and most of his actions were just following orders. After his arrest

he acted relatively normally but we'll never know because he was silenced rather quickly.

More likely a Programmed Patsy than assassin.

We know Oswald was connected to a number of other operations - including the U2, the Defectors Program, Wringer, Paperclip and JMWAVE (via the DRE & FPCC), so it would not be surprising to find him connected to other operations as well, especially one like MKULTRA.

Oswald, while in New Orleans in the summer of '63, did read Huxley's Doors of Perception and asked an assist DA on the legality of LSD, and Dr. Jose Rivera (USAR) was most certainly connected to MKULTRA while working on Top Secret project at Fort Detrich, MD, and he is suspected of using drugs and hypnotic suggestion techniques on Adele E, and appears to have had foreknowledge of Oswald's involvement in the Walker shooting.

So it seems like Oswald was connected to the MKULTRA project in a way that struck his interest and the interest of the doctors who had access to his records (like Rivera).

The story in the London Sunday Times documented the Navy and USMC use of the MMPI test to select recruits for training as killers and assassins, and Oswald just happened to have the personality profile they were looking for, and Oswald is known to have taken the test under Herzog and while in the USMC.

Both DeMohrenschildt and Volkmar Schmidt planted the seed in Oswald's mind about the Valkyrie Plot to kill Hitler, how the world history would have been different if it succeeded and suggested the same thing happen to Walker, an idea that Oswald seems to have manifested into his reality, but there is no indication that Oswald was crazy or ever exhibited psychotic or violent intentions.

Oswald was not however, the lone wolf assassin that is portrayed in the Day of the Jackal movie,who is thwarted from assassinating DeGaul, nor is he the triggernan in a much wider assassination and coup, who would have more reliable snipers, which means that it is more likely he was the Patsy, as it is probably easier to program someone to do a series of small things and set them up as the fall guy than it is to get them to do the really hard thing - like killing the President.

BK

For more on London Sunday Times story:

Center/Study of Political Assassinations

Bill Kelly,

What are the best books and easily accessible article on the internet about Lee Harvey Oswald's US intelligence connections? Here are some of the ones I give out, please give me some more references

1) "Oswald and the CIA" book by John Newman

2) "Spy Saga: Lee Harvey Oswald and US Intelligence" book by Philip Melanson

3) "History Will Not Absolve Us" by Martin Schotz (Chapter 5 "Oswald and U.S. Intelligence" by Christopher Sharrett)

4) "Me and Lee" book by Judyth Vary Baker (Oswald's mistress in New Orleans, summer 1963)

5) Google "Lee Harvey Oswald's reading habits summer 1963" by Judyth Vary Baker

I guess I should add George Michael Evica's http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/1413464777

Sorry I missed this, I will get back to you on it as I think it is an important question.

BK

JFKcountercoup

[Pamela Brown]

What are your sources for these claims. I doubt a lowly radar operator would have been privy to such details:

• the evidence suggests the KGB had no interest in what he had to offer

• the plane was specially designed to be invisible to radar

• primary radar doesn’t provide altitude or speed data, though I assume the latter could calculated based on the time a target took to travel from one point to another. Secondary radar provides this info but only works if the target that has functioning transponder, an unlikely accessory for a plane designed to be invisible to radar. I’m not even sure secondary radar existed at the time.

• even at its max. operating altitude and assuming a best case scenario - the U-2 would have been beyond Atsugi’s radar range when it was about 300 miles from the base. It is reasonable to assume it would have avoided operating at its maximum capabilities with range of radar facilities capable of tracking it.

[...]

And you consider that an LHO - intel "connection"

Not quite.

The impression the KGB wanted the US to have was that LHO had nothing to offer and was of no interest to them. That, however, is suspect, especially considering the series of odd coincidences that occurred. LHO 'defected', proclaimed to Snyder he had secrets to give the Soviets, some months later Powers' U-2 was shot down in the most humiliating diplomatic fiasco in US history; then LHO claimed to have seen Powers in Moscow during his trial, so he may have been brought there as some sort of reward for what he had contributed. Let's not also forget that Powers himself seemed to think LHO had something to do with his U-2 being shot down.

Oddly, the WC defender position is the same as that of the KGB.

Nosenko, of course, was not part of the inner KGB, so, though he told the 'truth' of what he knew, which just happened to coincide with what the KGB position was and what it thought the US wanted to hear, that was not the whole story.

Whether or not LHO gave the USSR information that helped them shoot down the U-2 doesn’t really fit any one assassination theory better (or worse) than any other except for ones based on the assumption he a US intel. op. The last thing the CIA wanted was to loose use of the plane over the USSR before alternates were ready, film retrieval from Corona was not perfected till August 1960, more than 3 months after the shoot it was not until the mid-60s that satellites came close to matching the resolution the U-2 had in the late-50s*. Nor presumably would they have wanted to embarrass the administration when Nixon obviously was going to be the GOP nominee. People have argued this was done to sabotage the Paris conference but the CIA could done this in less damaging ways such as feeding Ike fake intel. LHO actually having fed such critical info to the Russians would fit well with him being an LNT public discloser of this would have served to vilify him.

* http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB186/index.htm

What we are lacking 50 plus years later is any solid evidence LHO had access to such information let alone that he passed it on to the Soviets. Much of the KGB and other Soviet archives from that period have been open to historians for decades but AFIAK no one has turned any documents supporting the notion LHO provided any useful intel. Nor seemingly have any former officials indicated he had, thought we do have several who said otherwise.

Nor am I aware of any credible American military intel veterans other than Powers who said he would had access to such information. What the pilot might not have known was that radar at the time seems not to have been able to give height information above 10,000 feet, even today primary ATC radar doesn’t provide height data and secondary radar only does so if the target (plane) has a transponder programed to do so turned on but U-2’s were supposed to maintain strict radio silence till they were coming in for landing. It is also quite probable the plane would have been out of Atsugi’s radar range by the time it reached it maximum height. According to a former Marine Intelligence officer who served in MCAS -1 Atsugi shortly before Oswald and spent 27 years researching supposed assassin’s service in Japan:

Members of MACS-1, including Oswald, did not control the U-2 Aircraft in Atsugi. Control of these aircraft rested with the personnel of the U-2 Program. Security was handled by their members and the unit was commanded by an Air Force Colonel. The U-2’s checked with MACS-1 before take-offs and reported an Estimated Time of Arrival. Once airborne, there was radio silence. Members of MAG-11 provided flight line security and crash crew rescue teams.

FWIW I had the following e-mail exchange with his son:

Dear Mr. Powers

I was wondering what you views were regarding theories that the Soviets were able to shoot your father’s plane down due information supplied to them by Lee Harvey Oswald. I thought I saw an article or interview where you commented on this on the Cold War Museum site but was unable to find it via Google search.

Len

Yes, it is very possible and my father did believe that LHO provide the Soviets with info on the altitude that the U-2s flew when he defected. However, I have not yet found any evidence to confirm this.

Gary

Have you looked into this? I ask because you wrote had "not yet found any evidence to confirm this", which made it sound as if you had looked.

I am not even sure he tracked the U2s, source give contradictory information regarding this.

Len

I have looked into it but have never found any evidence that proves that LHO gave the Soviet the altitude info of the U-2 though it makes sense that he did. LHO was a radar operator and tracked U-2 flights.

Gary

Anthony Marsh and I are discussing this same thing on aaj:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_frm/thread/2bf19ef811de6613/5251b73c8a9f80ae?hl=en&q=oswald+traitor+pamela#5251b73c8a9f80ae

He maintains the WC defender/KGB position that LHO had 'low' security clearance and couldn't have known anything of value to the Soviets. I disagree. There are too many odd coincidences, including and especially the fact that Powers himself thought LHO gave information that contributed to his being shot down.

We don't know what LHO may have heard, seen, experienced, at the radar controls at Atsugi. But it certainly makes more sense to leave this door open than try and force it shut.

In addition, Holzmanb in JJA: The Cia & the Craft of Counterintelligence, p. 198, alludes to the fact that JJA was concerned about this very possibility, as well as the impact on the public this would have if it were disclosed. It is no wonder that the WC neatly sidesteps this very delicate situation. It has been left for us to resolve.

[Kathleen Collins]

I think the general opinion here is that Oswald didn't shoot President Kennedy. We have a picture and a bit of film of the man who was at the 6th floor window -- Tan Jacket Man with the shaved area atop his head. If Oswald wasn't the sniper and never shot at Kennedy, then it's a sure bet he wasn't a victim of MKULTRA.

Kathy C

[Thomas Graves]

I think the general opinion here is that Oswald didn't shoot President Kennedy. We have a picture and a bit of film of the man who was at the 6th floor window -- Tan Jacket Man with the shaved area atop his head. If Oswald wasn't the sniper and never shot at Kennedy, then it's a sure bet he wasn't a victim of MKULTRA.

Kathy C

Kathy,

The idea isn't that LHO was the assassin, but that he was MKULTRA-programmed to do certain self-incriminating things which would later make him look as though he was the assassin.

--Tommy

P.S. Hope you're doing okay.

[Len Colby]

Anthony Marsh and I are discussing this same thing on aaj:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_frm/thread/2bf19ef811de6613/5251b73c8a9f80ae?hl=en&q=oswald+traitor+pamela#5251b73c8a9f80ae

He maintains the WC defender/KGB position that LHO had 'low' security clearance and couldn't have known anything of value to the Soviets. I disagree.

As I have already pointed out:

- a radar operator would not know a plane’s altitude because primary radar does not normally give this information. According to LHO’s OIC when he got back to the US they were experimenting with height finding radar but it only worked to 10,000 feet.

- a Marine officer who served in the same unit at Atsugi a little before LHO and wrote a book about Oswald’s time there said they did not control (i.e. track) U-2 flights. He said this was done by a special unit.

- We have no credible reports indicating a radar operator would have access to this information

- We have no credible reports LHO gave them any use intel.

Another problem with your theory is that there were only four U-2 flights out of Atsugi when LHO was there. They occurred on June 18, August 20, Sept. 9 and Oct. 22 1958. All were over China rather than the USSR. The last occurred after he had been “transferred out of MACS-1 and put on general duty, in anticipation of his return to the United States”. The 2nd and 3rd happened after he’d served almost 2 months hard labor following his 2nd court-martial in less than a year. The first was only 2 months after his 1st court martial. There were 100 men in his unit, even if we discount the claim his unit did not control U-2s, the odds that LHO tacked any is pretty small.

There are too many odd coincidences, including and especially the fact that Powers himself thought LHO gave information that contributed to his being shot down.

I noticed that you dodged McAdams’ question, “And just what evidence of this did Powers have?” Powers was heavily criticized by critics for not having destroyed the plane and/or killed himself; he seems to have been looking for a scapegoat. What other “odd coincidences” were there? The Soviets had been tracking U-2 over flights since the first one on July 4, 1956. As of the second flight a day later:

“An early warning radar for the system at Smolensk had detected Vito’s approach and estimated the altitude at 65,000 feet. Soviet air defence experts discounted the radar operators’ claims - no aircraft could fly that high, they judged!”

Every over flight was tracked but Soviet air defenses were incapable of shooting them down. The CIA tried unsuccessfully to cloak U-2s from radar. On March 1, 1958 a U-2 from Atsugi “was detected and intercepted by MiG fighters that came uncomfortably close” this led to a suspension of Soviet over flights. So where’s the coincidence?

Soviet over flights only resumed in July 1959 and were flown out of Pakistan. There were 3 Russian and an equal number of Chinese over flights between LHO’s defection and the Powers incident, so once again, what is the supposed coincidence?

You mentioned that LHO claimed to have shown up at Powers’ trial but the trial was PUBLIC and IIRC there is no confirmation of Oswald’s claim. Even IF true he would have been just one of about 1000 people who attended.

We don't know what LHO may have heard, seen, experienced, at the radar controls at Atsugi. But it certainly makes more sense to leave this door open than try and force it shut.

I’m not aware of anyone trying to ‘force [the door] shut but none of the evidence supports your theory.

In addition, Holzmanb in JJA: The Cia & the Craft of Counterintelligence, p. 198, alludes to the fact that JJA was concerned about this very possibility, as well as the impact on the public this would have if it were disclosed. It is no wonder that the WC neatly sidesteps this very delicate situation. It has been left for us to resolve.

According to Holzman he accepted that LHO was the assassin, is that your interpretation of Nov. 22, 1963? Do you have any evidence that anyone believed LHO had a role in the shoot down BEFORE 1963? And Holzman never said directly that Angleton suspected that LHO gave the Soviets info that allowed them to shoot Powers down only that he might have “provide[d] information about the U-2.

PS - I'll e-mail Gary Powers Jr. and ask him what evidence (if any) his dad had.

SOURCES:

THE EARLY U-2 OVERFLIGHTS OF THE SOVIET UNION

http://www.coldwar.org/articles/50s/early_u2.asp

U-2 Overflights of the Soviet Union and China

http://www.blackbirds.net/u2/u2overflights.html

Report of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - Appendix 13: Biography of Lee Harvey Oswald – Marines:

http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-13.html#marines

James Jesus Angleton, the CIA, and the craft of counterintelligence

http://books.google.com/books?id=H8q_zVR_5EYC&pg=PA198

See also: Spyplane: the U-2 history declassified

http://books.google.com/books?id=uOcrDF0y-CAC

Powers trial public:

http://books.google.com/books?id=uzdWTBytwAIC&pg=PA398&dq=gary+powers+trial+public

Attended by nearly 1000 people:

http://books.google.com.br/books?id=GmBFlFKj8jcC&pg=PA24&dq=gary+powers+trial+public

EDIT - Factual error, see below.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Len Colby

[Thomas Graves]

Anthony Marsh and I are discussing this same thing on aaj:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_frm/thread/2bf19ef811de6613/5251b73c8a9f80ae?hl=en&q=oswald+traitor+pamela#5251b73c8a9f80ae

He maintains the WC defender/KGB position that LHO had 'low' security clearance and couldn't have known anything of value to the Soviets. I disagree.

As I have already pointed out:

- a radar operator would not know a plane’s altitude because primary radar does not normally give this information. According to LHO’s OIC when he got back to the US they were experimenting with height finding radar but it only worked to 10,000 feet.

- a Marine officer who served in the same unit at Atsugi a little before LHO and wrote a book about Oswald’s time there said they did not control (i.e. track) U-2 flights. He said this was done by a special unit.

- We have no credible reports indicating a radar operator would have access to this information

- We have no credible reports LHO gave them any use intel.

Another problem with your theory is that there were only four U-2 flights out of Atsugi when LHO was there. They occurred on June 18, August 20, Sept. 9 and Oct. 22 1958. All were over China rather than the USSR. The last occurred after he had been “transferred out of MACS-1 and put on general duty, in anticipation of his return to the United States”. The 2nd and 3rd happened after he’d served almost 2 months hard labor following his 2nd court-martial in less than a year. The first was only 2 months after his 1st court martial. There were 100 men in his unit, even if we discount the claim his unit did not control U-2s, the odds that LHO tacked any is pretty small.

There are too many odd coincidences, including and especially the fact that Powers himself thought LHO gave information that contributed to his being shot down.

I noticed that you dodged McAdams’ question, “And just what evidence of this did Powers have?” Powers was heavily criticized by critics for not having destroyed the plane and/or killed himself; he seems to have been looking for a scapegoat. What other “odd coincidences” were there? The Soviets had been tracking U-2 over flights since the first one on July 4, 1956. As of the second flight a day later:

“An early warning radar for the system at Smolensk had detected Vito’s approach and estimated the altitude at 65,000 feet. Soviet air defence experts discounted the radar operators’ claims - no aircraft could fly that high, they judged!”

Every over flight was tracked but Soviet air defenses were incapable of shooting them down. The CIA tried unsuccessfully to cloak U-2s from radar. On March 1, 1958 a U-2 from Atsugi “was detected and intercepted by MiG fighters that came uncomfortably close” this led to a suspension of Soviet over flights. So where’s the coincidence?

Soviet over flights only resumed in July 1959 and were flown out of Pakistan. There were 3 Russian and an equal number of Chinese over flights between LHO’s defection and the Powers incident, so once again, what is the supposed coincidence?

You mentioned that LHO claimed to have shown up at Powers’ trial but the trial was PUBLIC and IIRC there is no confirmation of Oswald’s claim. Even IF true he would have been just one of about 1000 people who attended.

We don't know what LHO may have heard, seen, experienced, at the radar controls at Atsugi. But it certainly makes more sense to leave this door open than try and force it shut.

I’m not aware of anyone trying to ‘force [the door] shut but none of the evidence supports your theory.

In addition, Holzmanb in JJA: The Cia & the Craft of Counterintelligence, p. 198, alludes to the fact that JJA was concerned about this very possibility, as well as the impact on the public this would have if it were disclosed. It is no wonder that the WC neatly sidesteps this very delicate situation. It has been left for us to resolve.

According to Holzman he accepted that LHO was the assassin, is that your interpretation of Nov. 22, 1963? Do you have any evidence that anyone believed LHO had a role in the shoot down BEFORE 1963? And Holzman never said directly that Angleton suspected that LHO gave the Soviets info that allowed them to shoot Powers down only that he might have “provide[d] information about the U-2.

PS - I'll e-mail Gary Powers Jr. and ask him what evidence (if any) his dad had.

SOURCES:

THE EARLY U-2 OVERFLIGHTS OF THE SOVIET UNION

http://www.coldwar.org/articles/50s/early_u2.asp

U-2 Overflights of the Soviet Union and China

http://www.blackbirds.net/u2/u2overflights.html

Report of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - Appendix 13: Biography of Lee Harvey Oswald – Marines:

http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-13.html#marines

James Jesus Angleton, the CIA, and the craft of counterintelligence

http://books.google.com/books?id=H8q_zVR_5EYC&pg=PA198

See also: Spyplane: the U-2 history declassified

http://books.google.com/books?id=uOcrDF0y-CAC

Powers trial public:

http://books.google.com/books?id=uzdWTBytwAIC&pg=PA398&dq=gary+powers+trial+public

Attended by nearly 1000 people:

http://books.google.com.br/books?id=GmBFlFKj8jcC&pg=PA24&dq=gary+powers+trial+public

bump