David Josephs Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 After searching the Forum for TRAMPS... I still find a variety of different opinions and conclusions... The first being the discrepency between Wise's FBI interview where he talks about MIDDLETON being part of the three tramp escort team with him and Bass EXCEPT, Middleton claims he did not work 11/22/63 http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10273-10392 MORE IMPORTANTLY is the statement by Wise that he and BASS escorted the three tramps and that they are in all the pictures.. Well, not so much as I have combined the images and we see that the cops in the Landsdale photo are NOT the same as in the other photos, especially the man in front... Could this be Vaughn who magically becomes Bass and disappears? The WC only asks Vaugh about the Oswald murder... not a thing about the tramps... Well - Mr Wise here does not seem to get anything right about that day... and then when we add Chambers, whose name appears on the three "Arrest Reports on Investigative Prisoner", yet his memory of the incident is even worse... http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10180-10305 go to page 4 of these hand writtne notes and find that a bit was left out of the final report.... http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10151-10221 on page 2 of the Doyle FBI interview they state that the three men had gone to a mission in the morning of 11/22 and took showers and cleaned up and had a noon meal Yet when looking at all the notes from Wise and other, these men were "Filthy and smelled badly". They had no socks as well... And finally, Wise was told "They were released" after spending 5 minutes in Decker's office... he does not see them leaving the usual way... and each of the "Arrest Reports" has them discharged on the 26th... 4 days later... 1) Can we confirm who the policemen in the photos are? Who is Wise, Bass, Middleton (who said he was not there) and Vaughn? 2) Were there two sets of tramps? AS these men were definitely not "filthy and smelly" from appearance and Doyle states they had just showered and cleaned up... 3) Doyle states that he and the other two were "convicted of Vagrancy" and sent to jail for 6 days yet were released early... Is there any proof of this? mug shots? DPD paperwork of any kind? http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10151-10221 What I see is an unidentified man with an earpiece who'se uniform does not match the man at the rear whose uniform is ill fitting and seems quite short for a cop while barely "guarding" three suspects taken from an area believed to have been the source of shots... Now why parade these men when they should have been handcuffed and placed in a car - is the real question... False Sponsors? designed to take up valuable time and effort... which they did and continue to do? Wise tells us that he speaks to the man in the control tower (Bowers) who mentioned the three men getting into a coal car... Wise and Vaughn retrieve them (Wise is not called to testify and Vaughn is asked ONLY about the Oswald murder) Finally, Chanbers signs the reports and has no memory of creating them... If we assume that nothing was done without a purpose that day, and the problems with the descriptions, personnel and events related to these three are plainly obvious... I believe we MUST look at them in the context of the three men who ran out of the back of the TSBD, got into the station wagon, and easily glided onto Elm in the midst of the assassiantion aftermath to stop, pick up an Oswald, and easily ride off - It does not add up and we must continue to find this connection... DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) After searching the Forum for TRAMPS... I still find a variety of different opinions and conclusions... The first being the discrepency between Wise's FBI interview where he talks about MIDDLETON being part of the three tramp escort team with him and Bass EXCEPT, Middleton claims he did not work 11/22/63 http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10273-10392 MORE IMPORTANTLY is the statement by Wise that he and BASS escorted the three tramps and that they are in all the pictures.. Well, not so much as I have combined the images and we see that the cops in the Landsdale photo are NOT the same as in the other photos, especially the man in front... Could this be Vaughn who magically becomes Bass and disappears? The WC only asks Vaugh about the Oswald murder... not a thing about the tramps... Well - Mr Wise here does not seem to get anything right about that day... and then when we add Chambers, whose name appears on the three "Arrest Reports on Investigative Prisoner", yet his memory of the incident is even worse... http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10180-10305 go to page 4 of these hand writtne notes and find that a bit was left out of the final report.... http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10151-10221 on page 2 of the Doyle FBI interview they state that the three men had gone to a mission in the morning of 11/22 and took showers and cleaned up and had a noon meal Yet when looking at all the notes from Wise and other, these men were "Filthy and smelled badly". They had no socks as well... And finally, Wise was told "They were released" after spending 5 minutes in Decker's office... he does not see them leaving the usual way... and each of the "Arrest Reports" has them discharged on the 26th... 4 days later... 1) Can we confirm who the policemen in the photos are? Who is Wise, Bass, Middleton (who said he was not there) and Vaughn? 2) Were there two sets of tramps? AS these men were definitely not "filthy and smelly" from appearance and Doyle states they had just showered and cleaned up... 3) Doyle states that he and the other two were "convicted of Vagrancy" and sent to jail for 6 days yet were released early... Is there any proof of this? mug shots? DPD paperwork of any kind? http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10151-10221 What I see is an unidentified man with an earpiece who'se uniform does not match the man at the rear whose uniform is ill fitting and seems quite short for a cop while barely "guarding" three suspects taken from an area believed to have been the source of shots... Now why parade these men when they should have been handcuffed and placed in a car - is the real question... False Sponsors? designed to take up valuable time and effort... which they did and continue to do? Wise tells us that he speaks to the man in the control tower (Bowers) who mentioned the three men getting into a coal car... Wise and Vaughn retrieve them (Wise is not called to testify and Vaughn is asked ONLY about the Oswald murder) Finally, Chanbers signs the reports and has no memory of creating them... If we assume that nothing was done without a purpose that day, and the problems with the descriptions, personnel and events related to these three are plainly obvious... I believe we MUST look at them in the context of the three men who ran out of the back of the TSBD, got into the station wagon, and easily glided onto Elm in the midst of the assassiantion aftermath to stop, pick up an Oswald, and easily ride off - It does not add up and we must continue to find this connection... DJ Regarding this great photo, it looks as though [based strictly on the positioning of the almost-totally-obscurred Old Tramp (E.Howard Hunt?, Chauncey Holt?) in relation to the Edward Lansdale/Maxwell Taylor "suit"] some sort of exchange or verbal communication is going to take place between The Old Tramp (who was carrying something in a small brown paper bag) and the Landale/Taylor dude. It's interesting to note that the two younger "tramps" are serving as a visual screen for the upcoming hand off or communication. Also interesting is the fact that this hand off or verbal communication is taking place in front of the big double chainlink gates. Maybe a message was communicated to both The Old Tramp and The Suit by someone standing (out of our view) on the inside of those gates... --Tommy Edited February 2, 2012 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Block Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Are people here on the boards aware that one of the "tramps" authored a book in 2001 on his career as a bum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 I do not believe the older tramp is Hunt... we have a photo of Hunt crossing the street, imo... yet you will notice how few shots the old tramp is visible in and the one full shot of him he is doing the sour face thing... The idea that Lansdale, if it is, is allowed to walk past the first policeman (which I see Denis has listed as Wise... Wise said he was in back?) and then walk past these MURDER SUSPECTS... is patently absurd... would NEVER happen in the real world of cops and robbers I cannot comment on the passing of info as that requires too much supposition for me... but everything else about these men, the police, Landsdale and the actual comments from one of the supposed tramps about a shower and clean up leads me to keep digging. More as soon as I dig it up DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) I do not believe the older tramp is Hunt... we have a photo of Hunt crossing the street, imo... [...] DJ E. Howard Hunt was notorious for using disguises. I would imagine that that would have required him to make some quick changes from time to time, like an actor between scenes, especially when playing multiple character roles in the same play. Perhaps Hunt made a quick change into Tramp garb inside box car in which he was found, along with the two other "Tramps" and a considerable quantity of explosives, (which may somehow tie in with my theory that LHO was on assignment investigating "gun running" activities going on in the TSBD). Question: Has the Elm Street-Crossing-Hunt ever been identified in any other photos taken later that afternoon? --Tommy Edited February 2, 2012 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 Agree completely Thomas... yet I believe this photo of Hunt is taken around the time the tramps are found, or at least in the RR yard still.. But as evident from this photo he was somewhere in DP during the shooting... I think he was on Houston... just need to check all the images again... More importantly though are the problems with Wise's FBI report and how it does not pan out... How are they released by Decker that afternoon yet are not signed out until the 26th? I'm saying there was a different group of tramps the Chambers/Wise Arrest reports are referring to... Has anyone ever published a photo of these men circa 1963 NOT from this batch of photos? If they were "convicted of vagrancy" per Doyle, wouldn't mug shots have been taken? Rereading Chambers FBI report Jones/Chambers/Grinell/Wagner are the officers involved...No Wise or Bass or Vaughn... CHAMBERS says he released the hobos... that they were very dirty, clothes dirty and wore no socks... http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10312 Page 3 - Capt Jones tells Chambers AT THIS POINT that they arrested the individual who shot Tippit and HE WAS THE ONE WHO SHOT KENNEDY.... This is AFTER a suggestion to test these hobos for gunpowder residue... Chambers says to them they are free to go.... yet is then confused about the ARREST REPORTS... I think it is safe to say that none of these policemen were ever shown these photos and asked if these were the same men... Two seperate sets of events... now where have we heard THAT before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Agree completely Thomas... yet I believe this photo of Hunt is taken around the time the tramps are found, or at least in the RR yard still.. But as evident from this photo he was somewhere in DP during the shooting... I think he was on Houston... just need to check all the images again... More importantly though are the problems with Wise's FBI report and how it does not pan out... How are they released by Decker that afternoon yet are not signed out until the 26th? I'm saying there was a different group of tramps the Chambers/Wise Arrest reports are referring to... Has anyone ever published a photo of these men circa 1963 NOT from this batch of photos? If they were "convicted of vagrancy" per Doyle, wouldn't mug shots have been taken? Rereading Chambers FBI report Jones/Chambers/Grinell/Wagner are the officers involved...No Wise or Bass or Vaughn... CHAMBERS says he released the hobos... that they were very dirty, clothes dirty and wore no socks... http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10312 Page 3 - Capt Jones tells Chambers AT THIS POINT that they arrested the individual who shot Tippit and HE WAS THE ONE WHO SHOT KENNEDY.... This is AFTER a suggestion to test these hobos for gunpowder residue... Chambers says to them they are free to go.... yet is then confused about the ARREST REPORTS... I think it is safe to say that none of these policemen were ever shown these photos and asked if these were the same men... Two seperate sets of events... now where have we heard THAT before? That's a crop from a famous Cancellare photo showing people walking across Elm Street towards the Grassy Knoll. In the uncropped original, you can see some people walking up the Grassy Knoll Steps in the foreground. --Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 One of my favorite in fact... the range of expression and emotion... Tom, if that's Hunt... {sigh} cheers DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) [...] Tom, If that's Hunt... {sigh} [...] Joseph, I think the Tramps were found in the box car some time after Cancellare took the photo. Does anyone know if this Cancellare "Hunt" character appears in any other photographs or films taken later that afternoon ? I think it's Hunt. It's nteresting that he was so darn attached to that hat with the real wide hat band. Must have worn that sucker for a good thirty years at least...) And by the way, I wonder what the big thing inside his jacket pocket could be? Of course Chauncy Holt is another candidate for the Old Tramp. I'm convinced that Holt and Charles Rogers were photographed "protecting" Oswald as he was handing out Fair Play for Cuba flyers in New Orleans. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKholt.htm --Tommy Edited February 2, 2012 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 I'd really like to hear more about the evidence related to those involved with the actual tramps.... There are two sets of teams within the DPD that deal with "three hobos" and they do not seem to cross... Wise's name is not on any documentation related to these men, while Chambers' is... Wise is mistaken about Middleton... supposedly he was not working that day And no one else is questioned about these men, the Chambers group does not ID any photos of these men as being the same as the ones they handled Doyle says they were convicted and jailed and released Chambers says he let's them go Wise says Decker talks to them for 5 mins and then lets them go... What up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) [...] Tom, If that's Hunt... {sigh} [...] Joseph, I think the Tramps were found in the box car some time after Cancellare took the photo. Does anyone know if this Cancellare "Hunt" character appears in any other photographs or films taken later that afternoon ? I think it's Hunt. It's interesting that he was so darn attached to that hat with the real wide hat band. Must have worn that sucker for a good thirty years at least...) And by the way, I wonder what the big thing inside his jacket pocket was? Of course Chauncy Holt is another candidate for the Old Tramp. I'm convinced that Holt and Charles Rogers were photographed "protecting" Oswald as he was handing out Fair Play for Cuba flyers in New Orleans. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKholt.htm --Tommy expanded Edited February 2, 2012 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Block Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 The casual and slipshod way the cops are escorting the tramps is quite remarkable. The President has just been shot down right here a very short while back. No one knows if there might be a whole host of assassins, a huge plot, or if the country was being taken over by Soviets or something. The entire planet is shocked, laden with grief, disbelief and anger. Why are these Dallas policemen treating these guys like they would a high school student who set a bag of poop on fire in the school hall? These bums aren't handcuffed, guns aren't pointed at them, and the cops who just had this crime occur in their city on their watch are handling them much too casually for my liking. One cop is uselessly out front and isn't looking at the tramps. That leaves one cop to keep an eye on them. Wouldn't any cop be at his most alert status at this time? If this is how the Dallas police treated Presdential assassin suspects, how the heck would they treat suspects who committed more minor crimes like burglary or rape? No handcuffs for those suspects too? Do they treat people suspected for little crimes like that to donuts? I find this lack of concern similar to the 12 hours of concerted questioning of Oswald by the Dallas police, FBI, Secret Service and God knows who else resulting in a total of a couple sheets of very rough, extremely sketchy hand written notes. The Dallas Police's stenographic and taping skills are only matched by the vigilant escorting abilities of it's officers, apparently. Here is a picture of my copy of tramp "Gedneys's" book. How many here knew he actually wrote a book? Obscure, aint it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Thanks Patrick.... What I find most interesting about the three tramps is the similiarity of the DUAL TEAMS AND EVENTS that occur here... and how that pattern is seen throughout the assassination evidence... I have no direct knowledge of CIA operations... yet it does make sense to confuse the issue with duplicates of key pieces of evidence... Use the actual events when they convict Oswald... and use the secondary events when the actual events don't do the trick... Starting with the duplicate Oswalds... I believe you can trace duplicates in MANY key events... I do not see how these three tramps are the same people that Chambers, Jones, Vaughn etc interact with compared to what Wise tells us... cheers DJ Was Chambers ever shown these photos and asked if these were the men? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Thanks Patrick.... What I find most interesting about the three tramps is the similiarity of the DUAL TEAMS AND EVENTS that occur here... and how that pattern is seen throughout the assassination evidence... I have no direct knowledge of CIA operations... yet it does make sense to confuse the issue with duplicates of key pieces of evidence... Use the actual events when they convict Oswald... and use the secondary events when the actual events don't do the trick... Starting with the duplicate Oswalds... I believe you can trace duplicates in MANY key events... I do not see how these three tramps are the same people that Chambers, Jones, Vaughn etc interact with compared to what Wise tells us... cheers DJ Was Chambers ever shown these photos and asked if these were the men? As I said earlier, I think there was a hand off between the Old Tramp (Hunt/Holt?) and "The Suit" (Lansdale/Turner?). Either that or a whispered communication between them. --Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 4, 2012 Author Share Posted February 4, 2012 Okay Tom... what exactly does that supposition without any factual basis have to do with the real discrepancies between the stories of those law enforcement officers involved with these men? If you could look into my allegation that there were TWO EVENTS with TWO SETS OF HOBOS... and give me your thoughts, I would appreciate it. The men Wise describe are not the same men that Chambers describe... and if Doyle, one of the supposed tramps, says they were in jail until the 26th when released - as it says on Chambers' paperwork... where is the rest of the documentation related to that conviction, sentencing, etc... Is that even Chamber's writing? DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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