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Three Tramps - Wise, Bass & Mystery Man


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Okay Tom...

what exactly does that supposition without any factual basis have to do with the real discrepancies between the stories of those law enforcement officers involved with these men?

If you could look into my allegation that there were TWO EVENTS with TWO SETS OF HOBOS... and give me your thoughts, I would appreciate it.

The men Wise describe are not the same men that Chambers describe...

and if Doyle, one of the supposed tramps, says they were in jail until the 26th when released - as it says on Chambers' paperwork... where is the rest of the documentation related to that conviction, sentencing, etc...

Is that even Chamber's writing?

DJ

deleted

--Tommy smile.gif

Edited by Thomas Graves
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I see that Tom... but you see.. I DO CARE

(I suggest you open up a thread to discuss your theory... an interesting one for sure but has nothing to do with the fact I started this thread to determine what others might be able to add to the base of knowledge regarding the ACTUAL EVENTS related to their being photographed to begin with... and the ploice involved.

When I looked closer I found the info I posted and hoped for some assistence...

The duplicity of things is a theme that runs throughout the evidence..

Do you not have a comment on either that thought, or the events related to these "tramps" in clean clothes, clean appearance, and wearing socks?

If there were indeed two sets, I believe that would give you theory more strength in that those pictured COULD NOT BE the hobos kept in jail for 4 days...

and MUST be others who may indeed have something to say or give to Landsdale..

We're on the same page here Tom... jsut not yet in the same spot.

DJ

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I see that Tom... but you see.. I DO CARE

(I suggest you open up a thread to discuss your theory... an interesting one for sure but has nothing to do with the fact I started this thread to determine what others might be able to add to the base of knowledge regarding the ACTUAL EVENTS related to their being photographed to begin with... and the ploice involved.

When I looked closer I found the info I posted and hoped for some assistence...

The duplicity of things is a theme that runs throughout the evidence..

Do you not have a comment on either that thought, or the events related to these "tramps" in clean clothes, clean appearance, and wearing socks?

If there were indeed two sets, I believe that would give you theory more strength in that those pictured COULD NOT BE the hobos kept in jail for 4 days...

and MUST be others who may indeed have something to say or give to Landsdale..

We're on the same page here Tom... just not yet in the same spot.

DJ

David,

Absolutely. Actually I do care. Where do you think the big switch(es) occurred? In the parking lot? As they were walking through the milling people on the street/sidewalk? It's a fascinating idea, actually.

Now David, I want you to know that I wasn't trying to hijack your thread. I was just trying to point out something I'd noticed on that particular photograph. Being somewhat technologically challanged (I always seem to have problems in 1) trying to find any given photo I'm looking for on the Internet, and then 2) trying to upload the darn thing to The Forum!), I thought I'd better take advantage of the opportunity, which the great photo you posted on this thread presented, and make a comment about said photo in a timely manner.

But then again, I'm probably just just a crass (and sarcastic) opportunist. :lol:

--Tommy (AKA "Tom") :)

Edited by Thomas Graves
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I hear you Tom...

I keep most of the images I use on a flash drive and up load to photobucket as needed... I like having them at my fingertips...

With regards to WHEN... I am saying that the three we see in the photos are not the three listed on the Arrest Reports, or the three who were incarcerated for 4 days...

that htere really is no record of these three...

Have you seen the arrest reports? http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/10/1023-001.gif http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/10/1025-001.gif http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/10/1027-001.gif

Chambers doesn't even remember creating these...

What we need to find is the arrest/conviction/jail records for 11/22... I just wonder if there aren't mug shots of these three men that do not match the other photos..

Need to dig more and/or get a little help from the community out there...

Now worries at all Tom, just I think there needs to be more proven related to the tramps for one to be Hunt...

DJ

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I hear you Tom...

I keep most of the images I use on a flash drive and up load to photobucket as needed... I like having them at my fingertips...

With regards to WHEN... I am saying that the three we see in the photos are not the three listed on the Arrest Reports, or the three who were incarcerated for 4 days...

that htere really is no record of these three...

Have you seen the arrest reports? http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/10/1023-001.gif http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/10/1025-001.gif http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/10/1027-001.gif

Chambers doesn't even remember creating these...

What we need to find is the arrest/conviction/jail records for 11/22... I just wonder if there aren't mug shots of these three men that do not match the other photos..

Need to dig more and/or get a little help from the community out there...

Now worries at all Tom, just I think there needs to be more proven related to the tramps for one to be Hunt ...

DJ

(emphasis added by T. Graves)

Joseph,

Believe it or not, I got that

.

And BTW, in some of my earlier posts this thread I conjectured that the Old Tramp was either E. H. Hunt or Cauncey Holt. (And that The Suit was either Edward Lansdale or General Maxwell Taylor)

Hey! Maybe there was a Hunt-Holt switcheroo and a Lansdale-Taylor switcheroo as well! You know, just to confuse us?

--Tommy :)

Edited by Thomas Graves
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After searching the Forum for TRAMPS... I still find a variety of different opinions and conclusions...

The first being the discrepency between Wise's FBI interview where he talks about MIDDLETON being part of the three tramp escort team with him and Bass

EXCEPT, Middleton claims he did not work 11/22/63 http://jfkassassinat...124-10273-10392

MORE IMPORTANTLY is the statement by Wise that he and BASS escorted the three tramps and that they are in all the pictures..

WiseFBIreportHEandBasstheONLYcopsinphotos.jpg

Well, not so much as I have combined the images and we see that the cops in the Landsdale photo are NOT the same as in the other photos, especially the man in front...

Could this be Vaughn who magically becomes Bass and disappears? The WC only asks Vaugh about the Oswald murder... not a thing about the tramps...

Threetrampsphoto-notthesamecopinfront.jpg

Well - Mr Wise here does not seem to get anything right about that day...

and then when we add Chambers, whose name appears on the three "Arrest Reports on Investigative Prisoner", yet his memory of the incident is even worse...

http://jfkassassinat...124-10180-10305 go to page 4 of these hand writtne notes and find that a bit was left out of the final report....

http://jfkassassinat...124-10151-10221 on page 2 of the Doyle FBI interview they state that the three men had gone to a mission in the morning of 11/22 and took showers and cleaned up and had a noon meal

Yet when looking at all the notes from Wise and other, these men were "Filthy and smelled badly". They had no socks as well...

And finally, Wise was told "They were released" after spending 5 minutes in Decker's office... he does not see them leaving the usual way... and each of the "Arrest Reports" has them discharged on the 26th... 4 days later...

1) Can we confirm who the policemen in the photos are? Who is Wise, Bass, Middleton (who said he was not there) and Vaughn?

2) Were there two sets of tramps? AS these men were definitely not "filthy and smelly" from appearance and Doyle states they had just showered and cleaned up...

3) Doyle states that he and the other two were "convicted of Vagrancy" and sent to jail for 6 days yet were released early... Is there any proof of this?

mug shots? DPD paperwork of any kind? http://jfkassassinat...124-10151-10221

What I see is an unidentified man with an earpiece who'se uniform does not match the man at the rear whose uniform is ill fitting and seems quite short for a cop while barely "guarding" three suspects taken from an area believed to have been the source of shots...

Now why parade these men when they should have been handcuffed and placed in a car - is the real question...

False Sponsors? designed to take up valuable time and effort... which they did and continue to do?

Wise tells us that he speaks to the man in the control tower (Bowers) who mentioned the three men getting into a coal car... Wise and Vaughn retrieve them (Wise is not called to testify and Vaughn is asked ONLY about the Oswald murder)

Finally, Chanbers signs the reports and has no memory of creating them...

If we assume that nothing was done without a purpose that day, and the problems with the descriptions, personnel and events related to these three are plainly obvious... I believe we MUST look at them in the context of the three men who ran out of the back of the TSBD, got into the station wagon, and easily glided onto Elm in the midst of the assassiantion aftermath to stop, pick up an Oswald, and easily ride off -

It does not add up and we must continue to find this connection...

DJ

Not only is E.Howard Hunt the short old tramp but his wife, Dorothy, plays a part: She's the woman with her hand over her face in shock that these maybe the men who killed Kennedy. Nice. hah?

Kathy C

post-5645-094092000 1328410026_thumb.png

Edited by Kathleen Collins
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Kathleen... really?

The Hunt kids were actually home alone that day? Guess we can ask St John.

I think my thesis actually improves if that is Hunt... that means that Chambers' reports were created for three other men... who may or may not have even been in Dallas that day.

So the question becomes who are Doyle, Abrahms & Gedney... and what did THEY look like at the time.

Rereading the FBI report on Wise's statements... it is plain that there is no connection between the names on the paper he wrote on and the three names appearing on the arrest reports...

the HSCA interviews him and he does not know the name of the three men... the HSCA does not know the names of the three men... even though there are these three arrest reports...

the policeman in front CHANGES... can you point him ouit in any subsequent photos?

Wise ways he's the guy in back... Bass in front. except on Denis' site he has Wise as the man in front... :blink:

Chambers sees the 4 photos and names Stefans and Macay (phonetic) as the front and rear policemen...

nor does he identify the three tramps as the men he supposedly wrote the reports about... that he also does not remember doing... :blink:

one interesting question is where did these three names come from... and why these three, since they were obviously NOT the three in the photos.

where they really just found hobos who were used specifically for this?

:ph34r:

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Harness:

"On the day of the assassination, there were several individuals removed from the train other then the three individuals previously identified"

Thesis... there we two sets of tramps... why parade the fake set thru DP, past Landsdale, past everyone?

A simple "in your face!" ?

edit: Harness ID's the three from photos as "three of the individuals who were removed from the train"

Did we see any others escorted from the RR yard?

DJ

Edited by David Josephs
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When i first saw these photo's in the early 80's two things stuck out. The older looking man he is caring a bag! When do police who are bring people in for questioning allow someone to carry anything? Especially when the President of the United States has been shot?

These police are acting so nonchalant walking these men to the police station. For all they know they may have been involved in the assassination.

They way they are carrying their weapons one officer is carrying his weapon in one hand at his side and another is carrying his in a odd matter also.

I would think if police officers was bring in persons for question that may have had something to with shooting the President of the United States they would be handcuffed and be closely watch by fully atentive officers not these one's

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Old man with the bag "tramp" manages to position himself so his face is hidden behind someone else in the majority of the photos, and in the photo where the photographer gets a clear shot of him, he distorts his face in an extreme expression. The other two may have been resigned to being photographed, but it looks like he wasn't.

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