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Andric Perez
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TSBD worker Harold Norman told HSCA that while on the first floor during the morning of the assassination, Oswald made a weird gesture:

"Maxwell (interviewer) Did you see him come to work?

Norman: No, I don't see him when he came in the building to work. I mean, you know, he was coming to work. There's one thing I do recall now was when he ask us what was everybody so excited about the President coming to town. Then he turn around to leave, you know how a kid would do if he's playing cowboys and indians?

Maxwell: Right.

Norman: He did like this: "pew".

Maxwell: Indicating that he reached like he was drawing two guns?

Norman: Right

Since any psychologist would tell you that memory does not improve with the passage of time (it actually gets worse), and considering that Norman never mentioned this episode to anyone prior to this point, it seems obvious to me that he was (1) mentally challenged, (2) being paid to make this up, or (3) scared about something. Has this ever been discussed in the forum?

Link to transcript of Norman interview: http://www.reopenkennedycase.net/richard-gilbride-hsca-collection.html

link to the "pew" page: http://www.reopenkennedycase.net/uploads/2/5/1/4/2514550/6782343_orig.jpg

Edited by Andric Perez
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TSBD worker Harold Norman told HSCA that while on the first floor during the morning of the assassination, Oswald made a weird gesture:

"Maxwell (interviewer) Did you see him come to work?

Norman: No, I don't see him when he came in the building to work. I mean, you know, he was coming to work. There's one thing I do recall now was when he ask us what was everybody so excited about the President coming to town. Then he turn around to leave, you know how a kid would do if he's playing cowboys and indians?

Maxwell: Right.

Norman: He did like this: "pew".

Maxwell: Indicating that he reached like he was drawing two guns?

Norman: Right

Since any psychologist would tell you that memory does not improve with the passage of time (it actually gets worse), and considering that Norman never mentioned this episode to anyone prior to this point, it seems obvious to me that he was (a) mentally challenged, (B) being paid to make this up, or © scared about something. Has this ever been discussed in the forum?

Link to transcript of Norman interview: http://www.reopenkennedycase.net/richard-gilbride-hsca-collection.html

link to the "pew" page: http://www.reopenkennedycase.net/uploads/2/5/1/4/2514550/6782343_orig.jpg

This was something Norman added in many years after the shooting, and is not to be believed.

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This is the same man, who - after a shot rings out 10 feet from his head, is able to hear the falling hull and the working of the bolt...

and is STILL able to hear a SECOND hull/bolt sound...

I posted a study of the sound levels on rifle and their effect on the ears... in ALL CASES the severe ringing makes other sound svirtually impossible to hear..

in some cases the ringing never goes away... in most it subsides in a few hours... these are 140+dBs...

Norman, Jarman and Williams have been Full of it from day 1.... "intimidated" ? in 1963 Dallas?

Say it aint so, Joe... :blink:

Edited by David Josephs
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TSBD worker Harold Norman told HSCA that while on the first floor during the morning of the assassination, Oswald made a weird gesture:

"Maxwell (interviewer) Did you see him come to work?

Norman: No, I don't see him when he came in the building to work. I mean, you know, he was coming to work. There's one thing I do recall now was when he ask us what was everybody so excited about the President coming to town. Then he turn around to leave, you know how a kid would do if he's playing cowboys and indians?

Maxwell: Right.

Norman: He did like this: "pew".

Maxwell: Indicating that he reached like he was drawing two guns?

Norman: Right

Since any psychologist would tell you that memory does not improve with the passage of time (it actually gets worse), and considering that Norman never mentioned this episode to anyone prior to this point, it seems obvious to me that he was (a) mentally challenged, (B) being paid to make this up, or © scared about something. Has this ever been discussed in the forum?

Link to transcript of Norman interview: http://www.reopenken...collection.html

link to the "pew" page: http://www.reopenken...782343_orig.jpg

This was something Norman added in many years after the shooting, and is not to be believed.

I disagree, I think that as a witness he was there - and maybe he didn't mention Oswald's question as to why everybody was excited about the president coming and the "cowboys and Indians" gesture because he was intimidated the first time around, and the second time those who intimidated him were no longer there, so you can just dismiss the testimony of a first hand witness if you want to, but I put more weight to it.

And what exactly do you or anyone think he meant by "Pew!"?

BK

JFKcountercoup

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"Pew" "pew" is the sound a child makes when imitating the sound of a gun...

"I'm shooting you... pew pew.... you're dead"

DJ

I got it.

And I think if Oswald did and said that it would have been big news in 1963, but now, we just find out about it and you don't want to believe the source?

To me, knowing Oswald from everything I've read and his sense of humor, that is something he would have said and done, but it in no way proves that he killed anyone, or DVP and the WC would have jumped on that and utilized it even though the evidence indicates Oswald didn't kill anyone that day.

Yea, they were playing Cowboys and Indians all right, and got their man at high noon in the middle of the street.

BK

JFKcountercoup

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"Pew" "pew" is the sound a child makes when imitating the sound of a gun...

"I'm shooting you... pew pew.... you're dead"

DJ

I got it.

And I think if Oswald did and said that it would have been big news in 1963, but now, we just find out about it and you don't want to believe the source?

To me, knowing Oswald from everything I've read and his sense of humor, that is something he would have said and done, but it in no way proves that he killed anyone, or DVP and the WC would have jumped on that and utilized it even though the evidence indicates Oswald didn't kill anyone that day.

Yea, they were playing Cowboys and Indians all right, and got their man at high noon in the middle of the street.

BK

JFKcountercoup

My rejection of Givens' statement about Oswald's gesture comes from my detailed study of Givens' statements. The bit about Oswald playing cowboys and Indians was something he recalled for the first time 14 years after the shooting, then quickly forgot again. By 1993, moreover, he was telling people he had his brush with Oswald on the fifth floor, a few minutes before the shots.

Harold Norman (11-26-63 FBI report, CD5 p26) (On seeing Oswald earlier in the day) “He further stated he cannot recall whether he saw Oswald at the Texas School Book Depository during Friday, November 22, 1963." (On the shooting) "He stated that about the time the car in which the president was riding turned on to Elm Street, he heard a shot. He said he thought the shot had been fired from the floor directly above him. He further stated at that time he stuck his head from the window and looked upward toward the roof but could see nothing because small particles of dirt were falling from above him. He stated two additional shots were fired after he had pulled his head back in from the window.”

(12-4-63 affidavit to the Secret Service, 17H208) (On seeing Oswald earlier that day) "On November 22, 1963, to the best of my memory, the last time I saw him was about 10:00AM when we were both working on the first floor of the building. I did not speak to him at that time." (On the shooting) “Just after the President passed by I heard a shot and several seconds later, I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I could also hear the bolt action of the rifle. I also saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever fired the shots was directly above me. I saw all of the people down on the street run toward the west side of the building, so I went to that side with Williams and Jarman.”

(12-7-63 Secret Service Report based on interviews conducted between 12-2 and 12-5, CD87 p783) "Just after the President passed their position, Norman heard a shot fired and several seconds later, he heard two more shots spaced closely together. Norman claims that he knew immediately that the shots had come from directly above his position, since he heard the bolt action of the rifle and he also heard the expended shells fall to the floor. Norman also claims that some dust fell from the ceiling of the fifth floor which convinced him that there was some type of activity taking place directly above him."

(3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H666) “I was with James Jarman and Bonnie Ray Williams watching the motorcade bearing President John F. Kennedy pass the Texas School Book Depository Building when I heard three shots fired from, I believe, the floor directly above me.”

(3-24-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 3H186-198) (On seeing Oswald earlier that day) (I saw him) "around about 10 or 10:15, somewhere in the neighborhood of that...Over in the bins by the windows, I mean looking out, you know, at Elm Street, towards Elm Street...(On) The first (floor)...I was looking out the window. He happened to come by to fill orders." (When asked if he said anything to Oswald and if Oswald had said anything to him) "No, he didn't...No" (On the shooting) “About the time that he got past the window where I was, well, it seems as though he was, I mean you know, brushing his hair. Maybe he was looking at the public…I can’t remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard a shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said “I believe someone is shooting at the President,” and I think I made a statement “it is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us. Well, I couldn’t see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle.” (When asked if he saw any dirt or dust falling) "I didn't see any falling but I saw some in Bonnie Ray Williams hair...I believe Jarman told him that it was in his hair first. Then I, you know, told him it was and I believe Jarman told him not to brush it out his hair but I think he did anyway." (When asked what happened after that) "Well, we ran to the farthest window facing the expressway."

(Interview with CBS aired 9-27-64) “Then the motorcade got to Elm and it turned and it started towards the triple underpass. The President, he was waving at people as he went by and occasionally he would brush his hair back." (Later in the same broadcast) “When I heard the second shot that’s when I saw the people start falling on the ground." (Later in the same broadcast) "But before the third shot was fired I told the guys that, you know, I believed the shot came from the building above us. And eventually, I guess, they agreed with me, because one of the guys said “I believe you’re right.” And I said “I know I’m right” because I could hear something sound as though the shells were hitting the floor and I could hear the ejection of the rifle, clicks like that, you know.” (Later in the same broadcast) “Well, I was looking out the window and the first shot was fired. Well, y'know, I didn't think much of it, because it, shook the building a little bit. Really, it was just that powerful. Then after the second shot was fired, well, I saw the people. They were all falling on the ground. And I told one of the fellows. I say, “That shot came from this building.” And then by that time I heard the third shot. And one of the guys told me, he said, “I believe you’re right.” And I say “I know it did." And then I could, you know, also hear the hulls, empty hulls, the cartridges, hitting the floor, and I could hear the ejection of the rifle, whatever it was. And the first thing we thought is we better get down from here because I know I didn’t want to be involved in anything like that because I didn't have anything like that on my mind…”

(Late 1966 interview with Lawrence Schiller recounted in The Scavengers and the Critics of the Warren Report, published 1967) "When the President came around, he was waving, seemed to be happy. About that time I heard a shot, and one of the guys said "Somebody's shooting at the President." And I said : "Well, he sure is, because I know that's a shot." And another shot was fired. Then another shot. I saw the President slump over and the Secret Service men and the policemen, they seemed to not recognize where the shots came from. There was a passenger train over by the railroad track and everybody was running that way. That's where they thought the shots came from at first. But I knew it was someone, the shots came from above us. I didn't know who it was or where but I know they were above us because I could even hear the cartridges hitting the floor and I knew the shots came from above...They were right over me. I was sitting almost directly under the window that the shots came from and I could hear them very plainly...One of the guys, some of the debris had dropped one one of the fellows' head, in his hair, and he mentioned it to the other fellow and we looked and there it was, in his hair."

(Interview with CBS broadcast 6-25-67, additional portions broadcast in 1992) (On seeing Oswald earlier that day) "On that particular morning there were three or four of us standing by the window, and Oswald came over and said, "what's everybody looking at, what's everybody excited about?" And so I - we told him we was waiting on the President. So he just snudged up and walked away." (On the shooting) "And then I think about that time, Jarman says "Somebody's shooting at the President." And I told Jarman, I said "I know it is" because I could hear it being above me and I could hear the shots and everything. And I could even now hear the empty cartridge hit the floor I mean after the shots had been fired. And so, after the shots were fired, well all the officers and everyone else seemed to think it came from down the track down by the underpass cause that's where everyone ran over thatta way. But just like I've said, I've been hunting enough to know the sound of a rifle from a backfire or a firecracker, especially this close to me." (When asked how many shots he heard) “Three. I’d say just about like this BOOM…click click…BOOM…click clickBOOM. Something similar to that.”

(10-20-77 HSCA interview) (On seeing Oswald earlier in the day) "Well a few more friends of mine, we were over by the window, main entrance coming into the building, and we were looking out and he came over and made the statement to us and asked what was everybody excited about because the president was coming to town." (On Oswald's behavior after making out that the president's visit was nothing to get excited about) "he left, and I never did pay him much, no attention." (When asked a bit later if he saw Oswald come in to work) "No...There's one thing I do recall now was when he ask us what was everybody so excited about the president coming to town. Then when he turn around to leave, you now how a kid would do when he's playing cowboys and Indians?...He did like this: 'pow.'" (When asked if he meant that Oswald behaved as if he were a "cowboy firing two guns') "Yes." (On the shooting) "just as the motorcade came around...3 shots was fired...Boom, clack-clack, boom, clack-clack, boom. One at a time. I see the President fall back and do high hand." (When asked if that was in response to the first shot) "No, I didn't think it was the first shot. I can't recall. (When asked if he saw the president react to the first shot) "No, I didn't because I really didn't know who was shooting--who somebody was shooting at. I mean, I heard the shots, but not thinking that, you know, that that was what was happening--that the president had been hit." (When asked from where he thought the shots were being fired) "From right up above me, up on the fifth floor. And I knew the shots had to be on the 6th floor, you know, on top of the roof." (When asked if heard any cartridges fall) "I heard three." (When asked if Jarman had pointed out any debris in his hair) "Yes...I didn't feel it. It was just something that must have been lightly--debris. It wasn't nothing, you know, that I really could feel...I feel like it was coming from either somebody moving around or something that had to cause the debris to fall down in my hair like that." (When asked again from where he thought the shots were being fired) "Well, I myself, I knew all the time that they came from above, why you could just hear it, I mean, you know, you know somebody's up there..." (On the conversation between himself Jarman and Williams, after they ran to the west side) "Well, at one time somebody made a statement that someone was shooting at the president or they thought someone was shooting at the president. And I think I made the statement 'Yes, I know somebody is shooting at him.'" (When asked if he saw the president hit) "Well, I feel like that he had been hit. I mean I feel like this because I only--he went back in some type of way, he did his hand or something, I don't know if he was falling or reaching for it or what, but I felt like that he had been hit there."

(11-09-83 AP article found in the Indiana Gazette) "'I didn't see the gun barrel but I did see the debris that fell in one of my friend's hair. I could hear a gun going off above us, and the debris fell each time there was a shot," said Norman. The debris was dust and tiny pieces of concrete broken loose by the concussion of the rifle, he said. "I sure do see that scene — sometimes pretty regularly. Sometimes I'll be driving down the street and thinking about it," he said. "I can close my eyes and see President Kennedy again. One minute he's smiling and waving and then he's slumped back and wounded.'' Norman said he never believed a conspiracy was involved in the assassination, but he also never fully believed his coworker —Oswald—was the trigger man."

(7-23-86 testimony in a televised mock trial, On Trial: Lee Harvey Oswald) "Well, I heard a shot when the motorcade came by. The first shot, it made the President slump. Then I heard two more shots. (When asked if he heard a total of three shots) "Yes, sir." (When asked how he could tell the shots came from above) "Because I could hear the empty hulls--that's what I call them--hit the floor and I could hear the bolt action of the rifle being pushed back and forward." (When asked how many hulls he heard hit the floor.) "Three." (When asked by the defense to describe the rhythm of the sounds) "As I recall, the rhythm of the sounds of the shots was Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click." (When asked by the defense if he thought there was an armed man directly above him) "I can't say that I thought that." (When asked if he thought there was somebody up there) "I thought there was somebody up there."

(1-19-92 interview with Gerald Posner, reported in Case Closed, 1993) "When the first shot came, I heard boom, then click-click, boom, click-click, boom. I could hear the sound of the click. I could hear the sound of the shells hitting the floor. I could hear everything. Three shots. No doubt in my mind."

(6-13-93 Interview with PBS Frontline) (On seeing Oswald earlier in the day) "We were looking out towards Elm Street, so he walked up and asked us, said, "What is everybody looking for? What's everybody waiting on?" So we told him we was waiting on the President to come by. He put his hands in his pocket and laughed and walked away, so I don't know where he went, or if he went upstairs or downstairs or where." (On the sound of the shots) “We was sitting on the fifth floor, directly under the sixth floor windows. The shots came from above and there was a gun and the shots were sounding, "Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click." So there was three shots fired right up over us when we were sitting on the fifth floor.” (Intriguingly, the transcription of the first part of this Frontline interview, when published in Gus Russo's 1998 book Live by the Sword, had a few extra lines.) In Russo's transcription, between Norman's saying Oswald "laughed and walked away" and his saying "I don't know where he went" he says "I thought maybe he's just being happy that morning or something. He was glad the President was coming through. He acted as though he didn't know, but I kind of think he did know." (Russo's transcription of the second part of the interview, in which Norman describes the shots, was also considerably different than the interview shown on TV, and far more expansive.) "At the time of the shooting, James Jarman and myself were on the fifth floor. Somehow he (Bonnie Ray Williams) lost us. But he did come down to find us just before the motorcade came through. So he joined us and we pulled up some cartons, standing in the window waiting on the motorcade. And as the motorcade came by, we started looking and we had a good view. And all of a sudden, we hear something. 'Boom, ack, ack, boom, ack, ack, boom.' I told Jarman, 'I believe somebody's shooting at the President.' And he said, 'Yeah, that certainly sounds like it.' And then by this time we looked over and there was some debris or dirt or something fell on top of Jarman's head. And that was three of the shells I heard on the floor. And when the police officer asked about it, we told them about it and they went up there and that is what they found up there on the sixth floor. Three empty cartridge shells up there."

(Article by Bill Hendricks in the San Antonio Express News, as found in the 11-20-93 Moscow-Pullman Daily News) "Norman was a 25-year old employee at the Texas School Book Depository when Kennedy was shot to death Nov 22 1963. One of his co-workers was Lee Harvey Oswald, whom police later arrested as a suspect in the killing. Now, 30 years later, Norman is unemployed, although he sells copies of JFK Today, a tabloid-sized newspaper for $3 a copy to tourists at Dealey Plaza...'I knew him,' Norman said of Oswald--but not well. The two never talked, except to exchange a brief greeting. Norman recalled seeing Oswald shortly before the president's motorcade reached Dealey Plaza. That was on the fifth floor of the depository, Norman noted, adding that he and another worker, James Jarman, were leaning out of a window with a view of Dealey Plaza. 'He walked over to us and asked what we were doing,' Norman said of Oswald. 'We said we were waiting for the president's motorcade. He laughed and walked away.' A few minutes later, Norman said, he heard three shots fired from the sixth floor window directly above the one he was using to view the parade."

Edited by Pat Speer
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TSBD worker Harold Norman told HSCA that while on the first floor during the morning of the assassination, Oswald made a weird gesture:

"Maxwell (interviewer) Did you see him come to work?

Norman: No, I don't see him when he came in the building to work. I mean, you know, he was coming to work. There's one thing I do recall now was when he ask us what was everybody so excited about the President coming to town. Then he turn around to leave, you know how a kid would do if he's playing cowboys and indians?

Maxwell: Right.

Norman: He did like this: "pew".

Maxwell: Indicating that he reached like he was drawing two guns?

Norman: Right

Since any psychologist would tell you that memory does not improve with the passage of time (it actually gets worse), and considering that Norman never mentioned this episode to anyone prior to this point, it seems obvious to me that he was (1) mentally challenged, (2) being paid to make this up, or (3) scared about something. Has this ever been discussed in the forum?

Link to transcript of Norman interview: http://www.reopenken...collection.html

link to the "pew" page: http://www.reopenken...782343_orig.jpg

I have a weird theory. If you believe there were 2 Oswalds -- and we know Tan Jacket Man was the one looking out the 6th floor window -- could the actions of Oswald be done by Lee Oswald to further sully Harvey Oswald's innocence? And that's why he was in the building.

Kathy C

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I don't know if you can believe anything else he says, but if Norman said Oswald made his fingers like a gun and went "pow-pow" like they were playing "cowboys and Indians" then I believe he did it.

(10-20-77 HSCA interview) (On seeing Oswald earlier in the day) "Well a few more friends of mine, we were over by the window, main entrance coming into the building, and we were looking out and he came over and made the statement to us and asked what was everybody excited about because the president was coming to town." (On Oswald's behavior after making out that the president's visit was nothing to get excited about) "he left, and I never did pay him much, no attention." (When asked a bit later if he saw Oswald come in to work) "No...There's one thing I do recall now was when he ask us what was everybody so excited about the president coming to town. Then when he turn around to leave, you now how a kid would do when he's playing cowboys and Indians?...He did like this: 'pow.'" (When asked if he meant that Oswald behaved as if he were a "cowboy firing two guns') "Yes."

While my belief stems only from my own knowledge of Oswald, and everything I've read on him, Greg Parker found another reference to Oswald doing the same thing at a different time and place, and it seems like he did it in a playful, joking way, while keeping a straight face.

Please visit Greg's Great Blog where much new information is discussed and brought to the fore:

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t183-piling-on-norman- 690

Greg writes:

Oswald had been in the habit of doing exactly what Normansaid. I know this because instead of just dumping on Norman when I read hisHSCA interview, I racked my brain for anything that might shed light - and thenI recalled - someone from Reilly's testified to the WC the about the exact samething.

A quick check of testimony from Reily employees uncovered this:

Mr. Le BLANC - Well, toward the last it be n to get prettyregular, and that is when I think they decided to let him go. And another thingI recall: He had this habit, every time he would walk past you he would just[demonstrating] just like a-kid playing cowboys or something--you know, he usedhis finger like a gun. He would go, "Pow" and I used to look at him,and I said, "Boy, what a crackpot this guy is!"

Mr. LIEBELER - That is what you thought?

Mr. Le BLANC - Yes. Right off the bat I said, "This is a crackpot";right off.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did he seem to just use his fingers like that, as a gun, as ajoke, you mean, or----

Mr. Le BLANC - Well, I didn't know what to think of it, you know, becausehe--on quite a number of times he would do that, you know. If you would walkpast him, he would do that.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did he smile or laugh, or what?

Mr. Le BLANC - No. When he would do it, he wouldn't even crack a smile. That iswhat used to get me. If somebody would be doing something in a joking .manner,at least they would smile, but he was one that very seldom would talk or wouldsmile either, and that is why I could never figure him out.

Greg Notes, (and I agree)

Nothing should be read into this in regard to the assassination. It was just ahabit - and one that went back to childhood... which is also in the records foranyone who wants to find it...

What I will say is that comments about disregarding the HSCA interviews of theTSBD employees are way out of line. These people were interviewed in their owncomfort zones - and without any pressure to make the story fit. I believe theyfelt for once that they could tell what they really recalled without filtering itthrough the government lens. There is much to learn from those interviews anddisparaging them as worthless is a great disservice to those looking for realanswers.

BK

JFKcountercoup

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I don't know if you can believe anything else he says, but if Norman said Oswald made his fingers like a gun and went "pow-pow" like they were playing "cowboys and Indians" then I believe he did it.

(10-20-77 HSCA interview) (On seeing Oswald earlier in the day) "Well a few more friends of mine, we were over by the window, main entrance coming into the building, and we were looking out and he came over and made the statement to us and asked what was everybody excited about because the president was coming to town." (On Oswald's behavior after making out that the president's visit was nothing to get excited about) "he left, and I never did pay him much, no attention." (When asked a bit later if he saw Oswald come in to work) "No...There's one thing I do recall now was when he ask us what was everybody so excited about the president coming to town. Then when he turn around to leave, you now how a kid would do when he's playing cowboys and Indians?...He did like this: 'pow.'" (When asked if he meant that Oswald behaved as if he were a "cowboy firing two guns') "Yes."

Kelly: While my belief stems only from my own knowledge of Oswald, and everything I've read on him, as does my belief that he didn't kill anyone that day, Greg Parker found another reference to Oswald doing the same thing at a different time and place, and it seems like he did it in a playful, joking way, while keeping a straight face.

Please visit Greg's Great Blog where much new information is discussed and brought to the fore:

http://reopenkennedy...ling-on-norman- 690

Piling on Norman

Greg writes:

Oswald had been in the habit of doing exactly what Normansaid. I know this because instead of just dumping on Norman when I read hisHSCA interview, I racked my brain for anything that might shed light - and thenI recalled - someone from Reilly's testified to the WC the about the exact samething.

A quick check of testimony from Reily employees uncovered this:

Mr. Le BLANC - Well, toward the last it be n to get prettyregular, and that is when I think they decided to let him go. And another thingI recall: He had this habit, every time he would walk past you he would just[demonstrating] just like a-kid playing cowboys or something--you know, he usedhis finger like a gun. He would go, "Pow" and I used to look at him,and I said, "Boy, what a crackpot this guy is!"

Mr. LIEBELER - That is what you thought?

Mr. Le BLANC - Yes. Right off the bat I said, "This is a crackpot";right off.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did he seem to just use his fingers like that, as a gun, as ajoke, you mean, or----

Mr. Le BLANC - Well, I didn't know what to think of it, you know, becausehe--on quite a number of times he would do that, you know. If you would walkpast him, he would do that.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did he smile or laugh, or what?

Mr. Le BLANC - No. When he would do it, he wouldn't even crack a smile. That iswhat used to get me. If somebody would be doing something in a joking .manner,at least they would smile, but he was one that very seldom would talk or wouldsmile either, and that is why I could never figure him out.

Greg Notes, (and I agree)

Nothing should be read into this in regard to the assassination. It was just ahabit - and one that went back to childhood... which is also in the records foranyone who wants to find it...

What I will say is that comments about disregarding the HSCA interviews of theTSBD employees are way out of line. These people were interviewed in their owncomfort zones - and without any pressure to make the story fit. I believe theyfelt for once that they could tell what they really recalled without filtering itthrough the government lens. There is much to learn from those interviews anddisparaging them as worthless is a great disservice to those looking for realanswers.

BK

JFKcountercoup

Edited by William Kelly
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Greg Notes, (and I agree)

Nothing should be read into this in regard to the assassination. It was just a habit - and one that went back to childhood... which is also in the records for anyone who wants to find it...

What I will say is that comments about disregarding the HSCA interviews of theTSBD employees are way out of line. These people were interviewed in their owncomfort zones - and without any pressure to make the story fit. I believe theyfelt for once that they could tell what they really recalled without filtering it through the government lens. There is much to learn from those interviews and disparaging them as worthless is a great disservice to those looking for real answers.

BK

JFKcountercoup

LeBlanc's testimony is relevant to this discussion. Thanks for finding it, Mr. Kelly. If Oswald had that habit, his gesture (if he made it that day) loses the significance that Norman seemed to attribute to it in the late 70's.

I disagree with Mr. Parker in his optimistic view of the reliability of HSCA testimony based on the lack of pressure. Let's not forget, however, that witnesses such as George De Mohrenschildt were under pressure as late as 1977, when he claimed to be scared and committed "suicide." Let's also not ignore the fact that memory deteriorates with the passage of time. Could it be that Norman was a victim of "source monitoring error," whereby someone remembers something (i.e. the gesture) but misremembers the source (i.e. when and where it happened). It may be that Norman remembered Oswald doing the gun thing at various times, but associated it with the killing 14 years later. I counted 7 or 8 interviews prior to 1977 (per Pat Speer) where Norman said nothing about it.

"A decision is made about a source when relevant information is of a certain significance and the memory occurring at a certain time or place makes sense logically" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source-monitoring_error#Heuristic_judgements

It's also noteworthy that Norman was not alone when he allegedly saw this gesture. He said Oswald "asked us" what everyone was excited about. Then he turned around and did the finger-gun thing. Has anyone else testified to seeing this gesture at that moment?

It's also difficult, IMO, to imagine that someone would threaten Norman not to incriminate Oswald in or around 1963, as you hypothesized earlier. Why would anyone do that?

Edited by Andric Perez
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Greg Notes, (and I agree)

Nothing should be read into this in regard to the assassination. It was just a habit - and one that went back to childhood... which is also in the records for anyone who wants to find it...

What I will say is that comments about disregarding the HSCA interviews of theTSBD employees are way out of line. These people were interviewed in their owncomfort zones - and without any pressure to make the story fit. I believe theyfelt for once that they could tell what they really recalled without filtering it through the government lens. There is much to learn from those interviews and disparaging them as worthless is a great disservice to those looking for real answers.

BK

JFKcountercoup

LeBlanc's testimony is relevant to this discussion. Thanks for finding it, Mr. Kelly. If Oswald had that habit, his gesture (if he made it that day) loses the significance that Norman seemed to attribute to it in the late 70's.

I disagree with Mr. Parker in his optimistic view of the reliability of HSCA testimony based on the lack of pressure. Let's not forget, however, that witnesses such as George De Mohrenschildt were under pressure as late as 1977, when he claimed to be scared and committed "suicide." Let's also not ignore the fact that memory deteriorates with the passage of time. Could it be that Norman was a victim of "source monitoring error," whereby someone remembers something (i.e. the gesture) but misremembers the source (i.e. when and where it happened). It may be that Norman remembered Oswald doing the gun thing at various times, but associated it with the killing 14 years later. I counted 7 or 8 interviews prior to 1977 (per Pat Speer) where Norman said nothing about it.

"A decision is made about a source when relevant information is of a certain significance and the memory occurring at a certain time or place makes sense logically" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source-monitoring_error#Heuristic_judgements

It's also noteworthy that Norman was not alone when he allegedly saw this gesture. He said Oswald "asked us" what everyone was excited about. Then he turned around and did the finger-gun thing. Has anyone else testified to seeing this gesture at that moment?

It's also difficult, IMO, to imagine that someone would threaten Norman not to incriminate Oswald in or around 1963, as you hypothesized earlier. Why would anyone do that?

Thanks, Andric, for making the point about "source monitoring error." Jarman was with Norman when Oswald asked about the motorcade, and was the one who did the talking. He said nothing about Oswald playing cowboys and Indians.

From patspeer.com, chapter 8.

James Jarman was the order checker who double-checked Oswald's orders for accuracy. Portions of his story beyond his account of the shots are presented so one can properly assess his credibility, along with those of the two men beside him.

(11-23-63 Affidavit to the Dallas County Sheriff's Department, CD87 p274) "The first time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was about 8:15 a.m. He was filling orders on the first floor. A little after 9:00 a.m. Lee Oswald asked me what all the people were doing standing on the street. I told him that the President was supposed to come this way sometime this morning. He asked me, "Which way do you think he is coming?". I told him that the President would probably come down Main Street and turn on Houston and then go down Elm Street. He said, "Yes, I see". I only talked with him for about three or four minutes. The last time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was between 11:30 a.m. and 12:00 noon when he was taking the elevator upstairs to go get some boxes. At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember). To my knowledge Lee Oswald was not with us while we were watching the parade."

(11-24-63 FBI report, CD5 p334-335) “Jarman stated that on November 22, 1963, he observed Oswald on the first floor of the TSBD Building, around 8:15 a.m. He stated Oswald had filled an order for books that was not correct and that he, himself, told Oswald to obtain the right book inasmuch as he, himself, is an order checker. He said he next saw Oswald about 9 a.m., or possibly a little later. Jarman said Oswald looked out the window and observed that people were gathering outside the building and asked him why they were there. Jarman told him the President of the United States was supposed to come by sometime that morning. He stated Oswald asked him which way the procession would be going and Jarman told him he thought probably it would be going down Main street, turning on Houston, and then on Elm street. He said he next saw Oswald between 11:30 a.m. and 12 noon, when Oswald was taking the elevator to an upper floor, at which time they had no conversation. Oswald had an order-filler pad. Jarman said that as the president passed by, he, himself, was watching the procession from a fifth floor window of the TSBD building...He said that he heard a shot and then saw President Kennedy move his right hand up to his head. After an elapse of three or four seconds, he heard a second shot and then the vehicle bearing President Kennedy speeded up and he was unable to observe any more about the presidential vehicle. He said a third shot was heard by him closely following the second shot possibly within a second or two afterwards. He said these shots sounded to him to be too loud to have been anywhere outside the TSBD building. Jarman said that he and Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray (LNU) went to the west side of the building on the fifth floor where they discussed the shots. He said they decided the shots had come from inside the building because they were too loud to have come from outside the building. He said that Harold Norman stated at that time that something had fallen from above him and that a piece of debris, in addition, had hit him in his face...”

(12-7-63 Secret Service Report based on interviews conducted between 12-2 and 12-5, CD87 p785) "about 9:00 A.M., Oswald had asked Jarman why all the people were standing in front of the building. Jarman replied that the parade would probably come down Main street, turn on Houston, and then go down Elm street. Oswald's reply was 'yes, I see.' Jarman later saw Oswald taking an elevator and going up. This was after 11:30 A.M. Jarman and the other members of the floor-laying crew returned to the first floor by elevator shortly before noon for the lunch period...After eating lunch, Jarman went with Williams and Norman to the fifth floor...Jarman was standing near Williams in a front window overlooking Elm street when the parade went by and a moment later he heard three shots."

(3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H655) “At the time President Kennedy was shot I was at the third window from the east side on the fifth floor. I was with Harold Norman…and Bonnie Ray Williams.”

(3-24-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 3H198-211) (On seeing Oswald earlier that day) "It was between 9:30 and 10 o'clock, I believe...In between two rows of bins...On the first floor...Well, he was standing up in the window and I went to the window also, and he asked me what were the people gathering around on the corner for, and I told him that the President was supposed to pass that morning, and he asked me did I know which way he was coming, and I told him, yes; he probably come down Main and turn on Houston and then back again on Elm. Then he said, "Oh, I see," and that was all." (On the shooting) “After the motorcade turned, going west on Elm, then there was a loud shot, or backfire, as I thought it was…A backfire or an officer giving a salute to the President. And then at that time I didn’t, you know, think too much about it. And then the second shot was fired, and that is when people started falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward, and then the third shot was fired right behind the second one…after the third shot was fired, I think I got up and I run over to Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams, and told them, I said, I told them that it wasn’t a backfire or anything, that somebody was shooting at the President...Hank said, Harold Norman, rather, said that he thought the shots had came from above us, and I noticed that Bonnie Ray had a few debris in his head. It was sort of white stuff, or something, and I told him not to brush it out, but he did anyway...He (Norman) said that he was sure that the shot came from inside the building because he had been used to guns and all that, and he said it didn't sound like it was too far off anyway. And so we ran down to the west side of the building...I couldn’t say that I saw him actually hit, but after the second shot I presumed that he was…I saw him lean his head…(When asked from where he’d heard the shots) “I thought at first it had came from below…I am sure it came from the left. (When asked if he had any doubt that the sounds he heard were gunshots, given that he’d had 8 years in the military) “Not after the second shot.” (When asked at what point he realized the shots came from above) "After we had ran down to this last window on the west side of the building, and we was discussing it. And then after I got to thinking about all the debris on Bonnie Ray's head, and I thought about that, also. And so I told Hank, I say, "That shot probably did come from upstairs, up over us," and Hank said, "I know it did, because I could hear the action of the bolt, and I could hear the cartridges drop on the floor." And I told him there we better get the hell from up here.

(Interview with CBS, aired 6-25-67) (On seeing Oswald earlier in the day) "I was talking to him around ten o'clock. On the outside of the building, some people had gathered. And he asked me what was they gathering around out there for, and I told him that the President was supposed to come by there that morning. And he asked me what time, and I didn't know what time it would be but some of the people had started gathering around. And he asked me which way would the President be coming, and I told him. And so he said, "Oh, yeah?" And I said "Yeah." Then he turned and walked off."

(9-25-77 HSCA interview) "when the motorcade arrived, and just as it was turned to go west under the triple under pass, that's when I heard what sounded like a backfire to me and, I counted the times that it backfired, and it was three times and then, after that, after I heard this second or third backfire, in which I thought it was--the president then, he reached up to his temple like, and I thought he was brushing his hair back, but then, I realized someone was shooting at him, then we ran to the west side of the building to see which way the motorcade was going to go then, and the limousine that he was in, it took off at a high rate of speed, so we ran back to the center of the building, and I noticed that Harold Norman had a bunch of debris in his head, which I imagine was dust from above, upstairs there on the sixth floor, and told Bonnie Ray, I said 'Man, you see all that debris in Hank's hair,' he said 'yeah man' Hank said "Man them shots came from upstairs, what we gone do?" (When asked from where he thought the shots were coming) "Well, I thought it was out on the street at first." (On Oswald's reaction earlier in the day after he'd been told why the crowd was gathering outside) "He just said, 'Oh, I see,' and went on and walked away." (When asked the number of mistakes Oswald had made that day) "I'd say about three or four." (When asked what floors Oswald worked on) "First, fifth, sixth, seventh." (When asked the time of Oswald's last mistake) "11:25, 11:30, then he went and got the book and brought it back and that was the last time I saw him inside the building." (When asked if a stranger could have walked into the depository building and made it to the sixth floor without being noticed) "Very easily." Analysis: as Jarman heard the last two shots close together and saw both Kennedy “lean his head” and people fall to the ground after the second shot, he is a strong witness that the last shot was fired after the head shot. Jarman's story is inconsistent on other points, however. Apparently, he couldn't remember upon whose head he saw the "debris" after the shots. He also told the HSCA that he saw Oswald on the first floor after he'd taken the elevator upstairs around 11:30--something he'd previously never admitted, or remembered. First shot hit 190-224. Last two shots bunched together (with the last shot after the head shot).

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Regardless of whether you believe Norman, the gesture in question was something Oswald did, and did for a reason, even if he was trying to be funny.

(10-20-77 HSCA interview) (On seeing Oswaldearlier in the day) "Well a few more friends of mine, we were over by thewindow, main entrance coming into the building, and we were looking out and hecame over and made the statement to us and asked what was everybody excitedabout because the president was coming to town." (On Oswald's behaviorafter making out that the president's visit was nothing to get excited about)"he left, and I never did pay him much, no attention." (When asked abit later if he saw Oswald come in to work) "No...There's one thing I dorecall now was when he ask us what was everybody so excited about the presidentcoming to town. Then when he turn around to leave, you now how a kid would dowhen he's playing cowboys and Indians?...He did like this: 'pow.'" (Whenasked if he meant that Oswald behaved as if he were a "cowboy firing twoguns') "Yes."

http://reopenkennedy...ling-on-norman- 690

Mr. Le BLANC - Well, toward the last it be n to get prettyregular, and that is when I think they decided to let him go. And another thingI recall: He had this habit, every time he would walk past you he would just[demonstrating] just like a-kid playing cowboys or something--you know, he usedhis finger like a gun. He would go, "Pow" and I used to look at him,and I said, "Boy, what a crackpot this guy is!"

Mr. LIEBELER - That is what you thought?

Mr. Le BLANC - Yes. Right off the bat I said, "This is a crackpot";right off.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did he seem to just use his fingers like that, as a gun, as ajoke, you mean, or----

Mr. Le BLANC - Well, I didn't know what to think of it, you know, becausehe--on quite a number of times he would do that, you know. If you would walkpast him, he would do that.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did he smile or laugh, or what?

Mr. Le BLANC - No. When he would do it, he wouldn't even crack a smile. That iswhat used to get me. If somebody would be doing something in a joking .manner,at least they would smile, but he was one that very seldom would talk or wouldsmile either, and that is why I could never figure him out.

This thread should be called "Bang Bang" ala the Sonny Bono song from 1966. For some reason this Oswald "gesture" made me think of this song and I could't get it out of my head. First recorded by Cher and then Nancy.

Bang Bang-Cher 1966 / stereo - YouTube

Nancy Sinatra - Last of the Secret Agents - 1966 - YouTube

Or should it be POW POW?

BOOGALOO Manny Corchado Pow-Wow

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=8DgjR5J9V_E

Jimmy Lipscomb

Edited by William Kelly
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