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The "CLIFTON" Version of the Air Force One Tapes Yields Important Information


Guest James H. Fetzer

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Guest James H. Fetzer

http://insidethearrb.livejournal.com

The "CLIFTON" Version of the Air Force One Tapes Yields Important Information

By Doug Horne

[info]insidethearrb

February 26th, 21:24

On November 15, 2011, AP reporter Joann Loviglio posted a story of major interest on the AP wire about a new version of the Air Force One tapes of in-flight conversations with the ground, recorded the day of President Kennedy's assassination by the White House Communications Agency, on 11/22/63, as the Presidential aircraft (SAM 26000) was enroute from Love Field in Dallas, Texas to Andrews Air Force Base, in Maryland. This new version was found in the effects of former Military Aide to Presidents Kennedy and Johnson, Army Brigadier General Chester V. Clifton, who retired in 1965 (and took the reel-to-reel tape recording with him into retirement). Clifton died in 1991; his widow died in 2009; and the tape recording and various papers were acquired by the RAAB Collection in a public sale, conducted by Clifton's heirs. The article stated that the RAAB Collection, in addition to selling the original tape recording purchased from the Clifton estate, was going to donate a digitized copy to the National Archives.

That was appropriate, since the tape was government property---indeed, was a historically significant archival record of the American government in crisis---which had been purloined by a government official when he retired. (This was common practice in the mid 1960s, but is prohibited by law today.) What made this story so interesting to so many people is the fact that the earlier version of the Air Force One tapes, released by the LBJ Library in the 1970s, was known to have been edited and condensed (since the disclaimer admitting this preceded the actual recording). Its contents were about 110-115 minutes long. It contained much provocative and interesting material about the in-flight planning for JFK's autopsy: namely, differing opinions about where it should be conducted, and about how the body should be transported to the autopsy site. This may have seemed to many of only mild historical curiosity in the mid-1970s when the tape was first released, but questions about how the autopsy site was selected, and how the body was transported to the site, took on major importance after David Lifton published his 1981 book Best Evidence, which provided convincing evidence for multiple casket entries into the Bethesda morgue that evening. Following the release of the HSCA's staff interviews in 1993 (thanks to the JFK Records Act), and through the work of the ARRB staff (in deposing retired FBI agents Frank O'Neill and James Sibert; and in acquiring the written report of Marine Corps Sergeant Roger Boyajian, dated 11/22/63), the evidence for three different casket entries into the Bethesda morgue on November 22, 1963---as posited by David Lifton in 1981---has become fact, and is now unchallengeable. Those three casket entries, which make the Air Force One tapes so historically significant and relevant even today, are summarized below:

The Three Casket Entries (Summarized):

(1) 6:35 PM/casket delivered was a cheap aluminum shipping casket/mode of delivery was a hearse (a black Cadillac mortuary-style ambulance). The hearse was offloaded by Navy Petty Officer Dennis David and his Navy working party of about 8 sailors, wearing Navy working uniforms (not dress uniforms). [supporting evidence: David's recollections to a newspaper in 1975 and to David Lifton in 1979 and 1980; and the subsequent recollections of Donald Rebentisch (a member of his working party), circa 1981. The time of this casket entry (1835 hours, or 6:35 PM) was reported contemporaneously by USMC Sergeant Boyajian in his 11/26/63 typed after-action report; he authenticated a copy he sent to the ARRB staff in 1997.]

(2) 7:15-7:17 PM/casket delivered was a bronze, ceremonial viewing casket furnished by the Oneal Funeral Home at Parkland Hospital in Dallas. It was taken into the morgue anteroom by four Federal agents (using a wheeled conveyance, likely a "church truck"): FBI agents James Sibert and Frank O'Neill, and Secret Service Agents Roy Kellerman and William Greer. [supporting evidence: HSCA staff interviews of Sibert and O'Neill from the late 1970s; ARRB depositions of Sibert and O'Neill taken in 1997; and an FBI internal memorandum from 1964 that helped to approximate the timing of this casket entry as about 7:17.]

(3) 8:00 PM/casket delivered was the same bronze, ceremonial viewing casket from Dallas that had entered earlier---with no one inside it (empty)---at 7:17 PM. It was taken into the morgue again at 8:00 PM (this time with JFK's body having first been reintroduced into the casket) by the Joint Service Casket Team, or "honor guard," composed of US Navy, US Army, US Air Force, and U.S. Coast Guard personnel wearing dress uniforms and white gloves. [supporting evidence: the written report of the Military District of Washington provided the time of 2000 hours; and extensive interviews by authors David Lifton and William Manchester established the unique nature of this ceremonial second entry for the Dallas casket.]

Each time the bronze, ceremonial viewing casket from Dallas was brought to the morgue, it was delivered to the loading dock by a light gray, Navy mortuary-type ambulance. The bronze Dallas casket in the light gray Navy ambulance did not even arrive at Bethesda Naval Hospital (from Andrews AFB) until 6:55 PM, or 20 minutes AFTER JFK's body was delivered to the morgue (via a simple aluminum shipping casket, in a hearse, or mortuary-style black Cadillac). The Dallas casket was not driven away from the front of Bethesda Naval Hospital, around to the morgue loading dock, until about 7:07 PM, and was then not offloaded until about 7:15-7:17 PM or so. The upshot? The publicized, televised removal of the bronze Dallas casket from Air Force One about 6:10 PM, immediately after Air Force One was "on the blocks" (at 6:04 PM), was a sham, for by definition that casket had to be empty when it was offloaded, since JFK's body first arrived at Bethesda Naval Hospital twenty minutes prior to that ornate viewing coffin from Dallas. The first entry of the Dallas casket into the Bethesda morgue was of an empty coffin. As I documented in my book, Inside the Assassination Records Review Board, the early arrival of JFK's body in the shipping casket, at 6:35 PM, provided time for key medical personnel at Bethesda Naval Hospital to perform a preliminary inspection of his head wounds, and to grossly expand the President's cranial wounds---by illicit, clandestine post-mortem surgery---in order to remove evidence of shots from the front and right front, prior to the formal commencement of the autopsy at 8:15 PM. The second entry of the Dallas casket at 8:00 PM allowed the honor guard to carry JFK's body---his cranial wounds, unknown to them, now altered and dramatically different in appearance---into the morgue, which was their primary function that night. After earlier "losing" the casket while chasing a decoy ambulance around the grounds of Bethesda in the darkness, it was imperative to those orchestrating the cover-up that night that the confused and mortified Joint Service Casket Team be allowed to "find the casket" shortly before 8:00 PM, and perform their duly authorized function. It was the "impossibly early" arrival of JFK's body, in a different casket from which it left Dallas (an aluminum shipping casket), and in a different ambulance from that in which the Dallas casket left Andrews AFB (namely, in a hearse, a black Cadillac), that broke the chain-of-custody of the body and therefore, by definition, invalidated the results of the Bethesda autopsy. The broken chain-of-custody was evidence of a covert operation that was underway---in short, obstruction of justice.

It is this context, summarized above, which makes the Air Force One tapes, containing undisputed audio evidence of a powerful tug-of-war over the forthcoming autopsy, so important today, almost 49 years after JFK's assassination. I Iistened to the earlier, edited-and-condensed LBJ Library version of the tapes at the National Archives in October of 1995---and wrote a 7-page ARRB staff memo on October 17, 1995, about why they were so relevant and interesting to historians and researchers. I also wrote about the Air Force One tapes on pages 1660-1664 of volume V of my book, Inside the ARRB.

This brings us to the point of this essay, which is that I have found three items of particular interest in the new "Clifton" version of the Air Force One tapes that is now available to the public (for free) from the National Archives. The "Clifton" version can be downloaded from a GPO/NARA website that can be reached via this link:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/GPO-NARA-JFK-ASSASSINATION-AUDIO/content-detail.html

(If the link does not work for you, simply Google the following phrase---"Post JFK Assassination Air Force One Flight Deck Recordings"---and you will be led to the webpage that allows you to download the new version of the Air Force One tapes.)

The "Clifton" recordings can be downloaded via two MP3 audio files: one is called "side 1" and is 70.1 MB in size; the other is called "side 2" and is 66.3 MB in size.

It appears that the audio has been digitally cleaned up as much as possible already. There is still considerable static in places, and there is still some audio distortion on occasion in some conversations, but overall the quality of the audio in these digitized recordings is far superior to that in the LBJ Library versions, released in years past on audiocassette.

Furthermore, the "Clifton" recording of the Air Force One conversations from 11/22/63 is 2 hours and 22 minutes long---about 27 or so minutes longer than the LBJ Library version.

Here is my report on three aspects of the "Clifton" recording which are different from the LBJ version---i.e., new material---and worthy of note:

I. A "black Cadillac" is clearly mentioned in the new recordings. Download side 1 (the 70.1 MB MP3 recording), and fast forward to the segment that begins at time 1:02:20, and which ends at time 1:03:12. What you are listening to here is "back chatter" (i.e., background conversation) from the White House Situation Room ("Crown"), which was picked up inadvertently in an "open mike" situation, in which AF1 was temporarily off the line due to communications problems, and the "Crown" microphone remained "hot." The following snippets of conversation by unidentified background speakers can be heard, as follows: "...black car...[followed by faint, garbled conversation]...that Cadillac is the...[followed by faint, garbled conversation]...black Cadillac...[followed by faint, garbled conversation]...I'd get him out there anyways, regardless! And then get him out there [garbled] regardless, then maybe, then maybe...[followed by faint, garbled conversation]..."black Cadillac." This final use of the phrase "black Cadillac," ending at time 1:03:12, is the loudest and clearest use of that phrase during this overheard, "hot mike" conversation. It could barely be heard on the LBJ Library tape when I reviewed it at the Archives in 1995, but was extremely faint and the context was uncertain, which I pointed out in my 1995 ARRB memo. Now, in the "Clifton" version of the Air Force One tapes, the phrase "black Cadillac" is unmistakable, and its overall context is clear---it is preceded and followed by discussions about where the autopsy site should be, and about how to get JFK's body to the autopsy site (i.e., tug-of-war over whether to use an ambulance or a helicopter). The immediate context of the speaker's comments above is clearly about getting the body to the autopsy site as fast as possible, and matches the general context, which is the aforementioned ongoing discussion about where the autopsy should be held and how the body should be transported there. This mention of a "black car" and a "black Cadillac" strongly corroborates Dennis David's consistent account (for more than three decades now) about how his working party met a hearse (a black Cadillac) and unloaded a shipping casket---the first of three casket entries that night at the Bethesda morgue. [it is important to note that Dr. "J" Thornton Boswell, the Navy pathologist who assisted the chief prosector, Dr. James J. Humes, confirmed to Dennis David later that evening after the conclusion of the JFK autopsy that the President had indeed been inside the casket that David's working party offloaded from the black Cadillac, or hearse, at 6:35 PM.] If any more evidence was needed as to Dennis David's veracity, it has now been amply supplied. Many of the speakers using the "Crown" handle that night were national security officials (such as Chief of the Secret Service White House Detail Gerald Behn; and McGeorge Bundy, the National Security Advisor to the President). They surely had their staff assistants with them. The "black Cadillac" remarks cited above were probably spoken by Secret Service agents, or by persons working for McGeorge Bundy. Someone with sensitive sound equipment may, in the future, be able to recover more of the conversation cited above. I have quoted for you here what I could glean myself from turning my speakers up to maximum, and through the use of studio headphones.

II. General LeMay's aide, a Colonel Dorman, urgently attempted to contact Genearl LeMay by radio shortly before his inbound plane from Canada landed. This conversation is recorded on "side 2," the 66.3 MB MP3 recording, between times 11:05 and 12:04. Why have I declared this to be of such interest? Why is it more than just a passing, random, historical curiosity? Because: (1) General LeMay, returning from Canada to the United States following learning about the assassination, disobeyed the orders of the Secretary of the Air Force (his nominal superior), Mr. Eugene Zuckert, and instead of landing at Andrews AFB as he was directed, landed at Washington D.C.'s National Airport adjacent to downtown Washington, D.C., instead; and (2) because Paul K. O'Connor, a Navy corpsman who assisted the Navy pathologists with the autopsy on JFK, stated many times before his death that General LeMay attended the autopsy of President Kennedy on 11/22/63. I documented the great antipathy that LeMay (Air Force Chief of Staff) and President Kennedy had for each other---as well as LeMay's disobedience toward the Air Force Secretary the day of the assassination---in volume 2 of Inside the ARRB, on pages 481-488. The real question here is, "Why did the editor of the LBJ Library version of the Air Force One tapes decide to remove this conversation from that version of the recordings?" Perhaps the whole subject of General LeMay, particularly whether or not he was present at JFK's autopsy, was "radioactive" when the tapes were edited in the 1960s. General LeMay did not retire from the U.S. Air Force until 1965; presumably he was still Air Force Chief of Staff when the edited and condensed tapes were assembled, and perhaps he had personally ordered the removal of that conversation from the record. Alternatively, someone else may not have wanted LeMay's name even remotely associated with the events surrounding the autopsy, especially if he had been present at JFK's post-mortem examination. More than one third of the air time on the Air Force One tapes is devoted to the autopsy arrangements, and "someone" may have been quite uncomfortable about the urgently expressed desire of LeMay's aide to contact him early that evening. LeMay landed at National Airport 52 minutes prior to the "on the blocks" time for Air Force One, and 83 minutes prior to the arrival of JFK's body at Bethesda (at 6:35 PM). He had plenty of time to be driven to Andrews if he had wanted to be there; and he certainly had plenty of time to drive from National Airport (or the nearby Pentagon) to Bethesda Naval Hospital, prior to the body's arrival.

III. The takeoff time of Air Force Two from Dallas, Texas and its prospective arrival time at Andrews AFB is conclusively provided on the new Air Force One tapes. (This information is not present on the LBJ Library version of the Air Force One tapes.) Go to "side 2," the 66.3 MB MP3 download, and you can find this short exchange between "Liberty" and "Andrews" beginning at time 12:35, and ending at time 13.11. Why is this important? Because previous to this, the only known record of when Air Force Two (SAM 86970) took off from Dallas (at 2115 Zulu time, or 3:15 PM local) was its mention in the reports of two Secret Service agents. The same takeoff time in these two written reports (2115 Zulu time) is present on the "Clifton" Air Force One tape, corroborating the times given by the Secret Service agents. Similarly, previous to the public release of the "Clifton" tapes, the only known record of the landing time for Air Force Two---2330 Zulu time, or 6:30 PM local in D.C.---was contained in the "Chuck Holmes Logbook" donated to the ARRB by an Air Force civil servant who "rescued it from the trash." The anticipated landing time for "970" of 2330 Zulu given on the new recording is identical to, and thus corroborates, the actual landing time of 1830 local (6:30 PM in D.C.) recorded in the "Chuck Homes Logbook" from Andrews AFB. The importance of these two times cannot be overstated, for they completely dispell and disprove theories that JFK's body was actually transported to D.C. on Air Force Two, instead of Air Force One. We know that JFK's body arrived at the Bethesda morgue at 1835 local (6:35 PM), per the Boyajian report. Since AF2 landed at 1830 local time (per the Chuck Holmes Logbook, as corroborated by the new Air Force One recording), it is therefore impossible for JFK's body to have come east on that airplane and then, to have also arrived at Bethesda at 1835 hours, local time. (Those implementing the JFK medical cover-up did NOT have access to Starfleet "transporters," a la Star Trek, in November of 1963!) I disposed of one such theory in the Epilogue to my book, Inside the ARRB, in volume V, pages 1777-1796.

WHY WE CANNOT ACCEPT THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA'S ASSUMPTION THAT THE "CLIFTON" TAPES ARE THE COMPLETE, UNEDITED AIR FORCE ONE RECORDINGS

In my October 17, 1995 memo, and in my book, Inside the ARRB, I explained that Master Sergeant John Trimble, USAF, the AF1 radio officer, had written in his after action report that he "...had three phone patches going simultaneously most of the time" during the flight from Dallas to Andrews AFB. Examination of the Air Force One tapes reveals that there were four radio circuits actually in use on the flight, and Trimble's report explains that three of them were in nearly full time, simultaneous use. The duration of the flight was 2 hours and 17 minutes---Air Force One took off at 2047 Zulu time and was "on the blocks" at Andrews at 2304 Zulu time. If we shave 17 minutes off of the flight time, just to be conservative, and then multiply the remainder (2 hours) by the number of circuits in nearly full time simultaneous use (3), we get the following sum: 2 X 3 = 6 hours. That is, assuming all three radio circuits in full-time use were recorded, the Air Force One tapes should actually be at least SIX HOURS LONG. The "Clifton" tapes are two hours and twenty two minutes long, which means that as much as three and one half hours could still be missing from history.

There are two reasons to believe that this may actually be the case. The first is the fact that the radio dispatcher and facilitator at Andrews who is heard so often on the Air Force One tapes, "Airman Gilmore," explains numerous times on the recording that Air Force One and "Crown" (the White House Situation Room) had two radio patches going simultaneously with each other, and that this was why so many other entities could not contact Air Force One when they desired. One gets no sense of two patches going simultaneously from listening to the Air Force One tapes. It is as if one whole "track" of conversation was missing from the recordings. If so, what might have been on that "missing track?"

I explained what may still be missing today from the Air Force One tapes on pages 1660-1664 of volume V of my book, Inside the ARRB. What I wrote then about the LBJ Library version applies equally today to the "Clifton" version. Both journalist and author Theodore White (in his book The Making of the President, 1964), and Assistant Secretary of State Robert Manning (who was onboard the Cabinet plane bound for Japan, SAM 86972, when JFK was assassinated), both unequivocally stated that the President's assassin was identified to the occupants of both Air Force One and SAM 86972 by radio---and by implication, therefore, from the White House. "Crown," the White House Situation Room, is the font of all knowledge on the Air Force One tapes---there is no other reasonable candidate for who would have passed this information to the passengers on the two aircraft. Anyone who listens to the Air Force One tapes will understand that. White wrote on page 48 of his book, "On the flight the party learned that there was no conspiracy [and] learned of the identity of Oswald and his arrest...". Manning told the authors of the 1993 oral history, Let Us Begin Anew: An Oral History of the Kennedy Presidency (p. 450-451), "The news then came in [after Pierre Salinger had been informed of JFK's death] that someone named Oswald who had been in the Soviet Union had done this."

The two accounts corroborate each other quite nicely. The only problem here is that Oswald had only been arrested on suspicion of shooting a policeman, and had not been charged with the murder of the President while Air Force One was in flight. Air Force One landed at 5:04 PM Dallas time, and Lee Harvey Oswald was not charged with the murder of the President until near midnight. It appears, from the accounts of White and Manning, that someone in the White House Situation Room ("Crown") jumped the gun, and prematurely incriminated Oswald, and blamed the assassination on a lone nut, well before the Dallas Police Department had even come to that conclusion. (And we know now that it was pressure from LBJ that caused Will Fritz, the Chief of Homicide at the Dallas Police Department, to stop blaming the assassination on an international Communist conspiracy, and blame it all on the lone suspect in custody. As LBJ told Fritz on the phone, "You have your man.") Furthermore, as quoted on Saturday morning in the Dallas papers, late Friday afternoon and early Friday evening, District Attorney Henry Wade was openly proclaiming that the assassination could not have been the work of one man. If this was Wade's tentative conclusion on Friday afternoon and early Friday evening, then how could the passengers on SAM 26000 and SAM 86972 be told that Oswald had done the assassination all on his own, unless they were being fed a cover story by the conspirators themselves?

If the accounts of White and Manning are correct---White either spoke to someone who had listened to the complete, unedited Air Force One tapes, or someone who had been aboard Air Force One; and Manning himself was aboard SAM 86972 with Salinger and Rusk and personally heard the premature announcement of Oswald's guilt with his own ears---then the serious nature of this gaffe---blaming Oswald for the crime before evidence had been developed to support that contention---would explain why so much of the Air Force One recording still appears to missing.

I encourage everyone reading this essay to download the "Clifton" tapes themselves, and focus anew (or perhaps for the first time, if you have not yet done so) on the disastrous spoken record of the JFK autopsy arrangements that were recorded for posterity by "Liberty" in the American midwest. (It was "Liberty's" job to monitor and record all Presidential communications while in-flight.) Even if it is true that three and one half hours of national security discussions about the purported lone assassin are still missing from the "Clifton" recording, the conversations we do have are a damning indictment of a poorly organized cover-up "on the fly," with those involved working at cross-purposes with each other. The "Clifton" tapes have only made this sorrowful record a bit more interesting, and a bit more definitive. END

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James

One point, one question. Clifton was a classmate of Edwin Walker at Westpoint and was appointed to the position he held in the Kennedy White House by Maxwell Taylor (Walker and Clifton's instrutor at West Point).

In my theory of the assassination, Taylor is one of two primary conspirators (John J. McCloy being the other) and the time of the arrival of Air Force One at Love Field dictated the distance that the motorcade would travel....a necessary component of puting the motorcade in Dealy Plaza at the right moment...

My question is, Do you believe that Clifton may have understood who was responsible for and was a party to planing the arrival time at Love Field and that Clifton understood the importance of this arrival time to the assassination story?

If my suggestion is true the information on the tape before the arrival in Dallas may be as important to the story as that which occured after the assassination

Jim Root.

Edited by Jim Root
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Thanks for the post, Jim.

It is well worth the time it takes to read it.

I followed links to Horne's website and it is a trove of important information and incisive analysis.

When I get through with Mark Lane's new book (the Last Word or Final Word), I think I will purchase and read volume 1 of Inside the AARB by Horne, which, I am sure, will invariably lead to volumes 2 - 5.

The real value of this new information is the fact that it represents how much information and documentation relating to the assassination that the government has under lock and key.

People like us who are interested in the JFK assassination are put in the position of working a jigsaw puzzle with 25% or so of the pieces still in the box.

Until the government reveals the totality of the information it has on the assassination, anyone who supports its initial assertion (the WC position) has an utterly indefensible position.

Who would believe anyone who had the information necessary to solve this important historical event, but who refused to release it?

That, in my opinion, is the most problematic aspect of the JFK assassination and research of the topic.

In other words, most of what we, as researchers (I am a reader, not a true researcher), are trying to learn is information the government likely already has in its voluminous unreleased records.

If what it has in its possession supports the initial LN government position, why won't it release all of the information?

The answer is simple - the information it still holds supports a contrary conclusion.

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I received the following email from a person who frequents this site and who I respect very much so I will attempt to answer it for all:

"Jim,

I don't understand. HOW could the landing time and location have any effect on the motorcade reaching Dealey Plaza? The exact time was public as was the exact spot, Gate 28, which was and still is where Air Force One always lands.

And the motorcade progress was actually impeded at two or three places, which put them in Dealey several minutes late.

Perhaps you can explain on the Forum?"

All of my research has centered around questions that I felt had to be answered in logical ways if a theory was to be supported by more that just speculation. In the case of the motorcade we can read the interviews that were conducted with the primary persons connected with mapping the route that the President would follow through downtown Dallas before backtracking toward the Trade Mart where Kennedy would deliver his speech. These people were the normal people that did map routes for the President where ever he visited. There seems to be nothing unsusal in the planning of the route. But upon close inspection there was one deciding factor which guided the planning and distance the motorcade would travel....THE TIME ALOTTED....which was controlled by when Air Force One landed at Love Field. A later arrival time of Air Force One would require a shorter route and an earlier arrival time may have made the route different as well.

What we do know factually is that the last building passed on the route was the TSBD where Oswald worked and that there was just enough time alloted prior to the planning of the actual motorcade route for the men who designed the route to put the President in Dealy Plaza which in turn provided an opportunity for Oswald (or others) to accomplish the assassination. The controlling factor would be the landing time of Air Force One...the rest was protocal that would be understood by the people who controlled the Presidential travel plans.

We also know, factually, that J. P. Hosty had, prior to the design of the motorcade route identified exactly where Oswald was working. Although this note, written by Hosty, seems to have disappeared without a trace and was not given an exhibit number by John J. McCloy while he was questioning Hosty, we must assume, that it, just as Hosty's two other notes about Oswald, made it to the office of Richard Helms!

It seems to be a certainty that people in Washington knew where Oswald was working and if they were planning an assassination of the President that would involve Oswald it would have to occur in Dealy Plaza. Controlling the landing time of Air Force One would be an integral part in the accomplishment of their goal.

After speaking in Fort Worth on the morning of the assassination Kennedy, I believe, returned to his hotel and had a period of down time until the planned departure of AF1. Air Force One had a rather large window of time that could have been used to reach Dallas and Kennedy could have been driven the short distance to Dallas in the time that was available but the reality is Kennedy's assassination could only have occured the way it did based upon the landing time of Air Force One at Love Field.

While everything was made public about the times of the Dallas visit prior to the actual visit those times were all dictated based upon the arrival time of AF1 at Love Field. You control that time and you control the start of a sequence of events that would be necessary for any conspirators to accomplish the assassination of the President as it did in fact occur.

Jim Root

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I received the following email from a person who frequents this site and who I respect very much so I will attempt to answer it for all:

"Jim,

I don't understand. HOW could the landing time and location have any effect on the motorcade reaching Dealey Plaza? The exact time was public as was the exact spot, Gate 28, which was and still is where Air Force One always lands.

And the motorcade progress was actually impeded at two or three places, which put them in Dealey several minutes late.

Perhaps you can explain on the Forum?"

All of my research has centered around questions that I felt had to be answered in logical ways if a theory was to be supported by more that just speculation. In the case of the motorcade we can read the interviews that were conducted with the primary persons connected with mapping the route that the President would follow through downtown Dallas before backtracking toward the Trade Mart where Kennedy would deliver his speech. These people were the normal people that did map routes for the President where ever he visited. There seems to be nothing unsusal in the planning of the route. But upon close inspection there was one deciding factor which guided the planning and distance the motorcade would travel....THE TIME ALOTTED....which was controlled by when Air Force One landed at Love Field. A later arrival time of Air Force One would require a shorter route and an earlier arrival time may have made the route different as well.

What we do know factually is that the last building passed on the route was the TSBD where Oswald worked and that there was just enough time alloted prior to the planning of the actual motorcade route for the men who designed the route to put the President in Dealy Plaza which in turn provided an opportunity for Oswald (or others) to accomplish the assassination. The controlling factor would be the landing time of Air Force One...the rest was protocal that would be understood by the people who controlled the Presidential travel plans.

We also know, factually, that J. P. Hosty had, prior to the design of the motorcade route identified exactly where Oswald was working. Although this note, written by Hosty, seems to have disappeared without a trace and was not given an exhibit number by John J. McCloy while he was questioning Hosty, we must assume, that it, just as Hosty's two other notes about Oswald, made it to the office of Richard Helms!

It seems to be a certainty that people in Washington knew where Oswald was working and if they were planning an assassination of the President that would involve Oswald it would have to occur in Dealy Plaza. Controlling the landing time of Air Force One would be an integral part in the accomplishment of their goal.

After speaking in Fort Worth on the morning of the assassination Kennedy, I believe, returned to his hotel and had a period of down time until the planned departure of AF1. Air Force One had a rather large window of time that could have been used to reach Dallas and Kennedy could have been driven the short distance to Dallas in the time that was available but the reality is Kennedy's assassination could only have occured the way it did based upon the landing time of Air Force One at Love Field.

While everything was made public about the times of the Dallas visit prior to the actual visit those times were all dictated based upon the arrival time of AF1 at Love Field. You control that time and you control the start of a sequence of events that would be necessary for any conspirators to accomplish the assassination of the President as it did in fact occur.

Jim Root

Another related question is why they flew AF1 from Carswell to Love Field at all, I mean its only a few miles and it would have been easier to drive from Fort Worth to Dallas, except for the fact they wanted to do a motorcade through downtown Dallas and hit Dealey Plaza.

And thanks for your analysis, Jim, and others.

BK

JFKcountercoup

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It might be quite worthwhile for someone with audio skill to take those hard to decipher bits about the black cadillac and see what else is hiding there in the background. There is quite a bit of background chatter that might prove salvagable and of vital interest to the case.

I've read Doug Horne's five-decker work three times. I think it's the very best single source on all things autopsy related to the assassination- and it is a fascinating read, well worth the cost- a must have set for those interested in the truth.

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People like us who are interested in the JFK assassination are put in the position of working a jigsaw puzzle with 25% or so of the pieces still in the box.

A case could be made that the key pieces were never in the box to begin with.

Or that they were taken out early on and replaced with pieces that do not belong.

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I received the following email from a person who frequents this site and who I respect very much so I will attempt to answer it for all:

"Jim,

I don't understand. HOW could the landing time and location have any effect on the motorcade reaching Dealey Plaza? The exact time was public as was the exact spot, Gate 28, which was and still is where Air Force One always lands.

And the motorcade progress was actually impeded at two or three places, which put them in Dealey several minutes late.

Perhaps you can explain on the Forum?"

All of my research has centered around questions that I felt had to be answered in logical ways if a theory was to be supported by more that just speculation. In the case of the motorcade we can read the interviews that were conducted with the primary persons connected with mapping the route that the President would follow through downtown Dallas before backtracking toward the Trade Mart where Kennedy would deliver his speech. These people were the normal people that did map routes for the President where ever he visited. There seems to be nothing unsusal in the planning of the route. But upon close inspection there was one deciding factor which guided the planning and distance the motorcade would travel....THE TIME ALOTTED....which was controlled by when Air Force One landed at Love Field. A later arrival time of Air Force One would require a shorter route and an earlier arrival time may have made the route different as well.

What we do know factually is that the last building passed on the route was the TSBD where Oswald worked and that there was just enough time alloted prior to the planning of the actual motorcade route for the men who designed the route to put the President in Dealy Plaza which in turn provided an opportunity for Oswald (or others) to accomplish the assassination. The controlling factor would be the landing time of Air Force One...the rest was protocal that would be understood by the people who controlled the Presidential travel plans.

We also know, factually, that J. P. Hosty had, prior to the design of the motorcade route identified exactly where Oswald was working. Although this note, written by Hosty, seems to have disappeared without a trace and was not given an exhibit number by John J. McCloy while he was questioning Hosty, we must assume, that it, just as Hosty's two other notes about Oswald, made it to the office of Richard Helms!

It seems to be a certainty that people in Washington knew where Oswald was working and if they were planning an assassination of the President that would involve Oswald it would have to occur in Dealy Plaza. Controlling the landing time of Air Force One would be an integral part in the accomplishment of their goal.

After speaking in Fort Worth on the morning of the assassination Kennedy, I believe, returned to his hotel and had a period of down time until the planned departure of AF1. Air Force One had a rather large window of time that could have been used to reach Dallas and Kennedy could have been driven the short distance to Dallas in the time that was available but the reality is Kennedy's assassination could only have occured the way it did based upon the landing time of Air Force One at Love Field.

While everything was made public about the times of the Dallas visit prior to the actual visit those times were all dictated based upon the arrival time of AF1 at Love Field. You control that time and you control the start of a sequence of events that would be necessary for any conspirators to accomplish the assassination of the President as it did in fact occur.

Jim Root

Another related question is why they flew AF1 from Carswell to Love Field at all, I mean its only a few miles and it would have been easier to drive from Fort Worth to Dallas, except for the fact they wanted to do a motorcade through downtown Dallas and hit Dealey Plaza.

And thanks for your analysis, Jim, and others.

BK

JFKcountercoup

This is the stupidest crap I have seen on this forum since Lifton defended the Mary Bledsoe story.

Jim, your whole central premise is staggeringly stupid.

You have not read the basic material on this subject. I'll give you a hint, Jerry Bruno's book, "Advance Man," and Volume 11 of the HSCA report. In volume 11 you'll find a section on the motorcade.

I've given presentations on this topic. I know it backwards and forwards.

Your whole approach is so flawed it's beyond help. You don't go to Dealey Plaza and work backwards to Love Field. What the hell are you doing that for? Are you trying to find some distance measurement? Why? Your statement that "There seems to be nothing unsusal in the planning of the route," SCREAMS OUT LOUD how totally ignorant you are of the whole Texas trip to begin with, and the Dallas motorcade in particular.

When asked to explain your methodology of how in the hell the landing of Air Force One at Love Field has anything to do with the motorcade or the assassination you ignore the question. Instead, you reiterate your unexplained core principal, "But upon close inspection there was one deciding factor which guided the planning and distance the motorcade would travel....THE TIME ALOTTED....which was controlled by when Air Force One landed at Love Field."

What the hell are you talking about? What do you mean "time alloted?" There is no "time allotted." Are you seriously suggesting that assassins are on a deadline? What, are the assassins members of an assassin's union? They're only contracted to start shooting at exactly 12:30 local Dallas time? And if JFK's late they say F-it and walk off?

But, no, it gets better. You think if Air Fore One was "late," it would shorten the motorcade route? What the hell are you talking about? Air Force One isn't a commercial airliner. It didn't have a scheduled landing time at Love Field. And even if it did and was late do you think people were going to say the hell with it and leave? Not even Germans are that anal about promptness.

You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

And how would they shorten the motorcade route? How would that work exactly with a route that was publicized and already had people standing along its path?

NO! The controlling factor was not the landing of Air Force One. There was no "controlling factor," everything was in place well beforehand. Nothing was left to chance. And I think you're trying to say there was, that there was a tight schedule and any deviation would throw the whole thing off and JFK would be saved. That was never a possibility.

JFK and Jackie went to shake hands with people along a fence line at Love Field. That took a few minutes The limo stopped several times so JFK could shake hands. One group had a sign which asked JFK please stop and shake our hands, another time he stopped for a bunch on nuns. That took some time.

This paragraph of yours also details your total ignorance of the case - "We also know, factually, that J. P. Hosty had, prior to the design of the motorcade route identified exactly where Oswald was working. Although this note, written by Hosty, seems to have disappeared without a trace and was not given an exhibit number by John J. McCloy while he was questioning Hosty, we must assume, that it, just as Hosty's two other notes about Oswald, made it to the office of Richard Helms!"

Oh really?

Hosty's WC testimony begins in Volume 4. FBI agent Fain had closed the Lee Harvey Oswald case. Hosty was given Marina Oswald's case. On March 14, Hosty learns that the Oswalds are living at 214 Neely St. Hosty learns that Lee has a contact with the New York Daily Worker from info received from the NYC FBI field Office. Hosty asks for the LHO case to be reopened. Hosty says he waited 45 days as a "cooling off period," because of what he thought were their marital difficulties which led to them being evicted from their previous apartment on Elsbeth street. So, in May he wants to check up on them. By then they were out of the Neely St address and left no forwarding address. Hosty's requests to reopen the LHO case on March 25th was accepted in late March, 1963. On June 17th, Hosty learns that LHO is now in New Orleans. Hosty corresponds with the New Orleans FBI field office during the summer of 1963. Hosty requested New Orleans to verify LHO was there. They do and inform Hosty. In August the New Orleans FBI field office takes control of the Oswald case, since the Oswald's are living in New Orleans they now get control of the Oswald file. New Orleans is now considered the "office of origin," to use FBI parlance since the subjects under investigation now live there. Any other FBI field office assisting in such a case would be called an auxiliary office. So, Hosty does not have jurisdiction, control, or any authority over the Oswald case as we head into the Fall of 1963. Hosty doesn't even learn about Oswald handing out leaflets on the streets of New Orleans until 6 to 7 weeks after the fact. There was no "Fair Play For Cuba Committee" in Dallas so Hosty wasn't concerned about an old event that happened in New Orleans. On October 3rd, New Orleans advises Hosty that the Oswald have left. Dallas now becomes the office of origin and the case is reopened for Hosty. All the New Orleans people know is that Marina left with a woman in a station wagon with Texas license plates, and the female driver could speak Russian. Lee had disappeared. The New Orleans FBI people did not know the name Ruth Paine, nor did Hosty. Hosty checks to see if the Oswalds have returned to the Ft. Worth or Dallas area. On October 25th Hosty learns that Lee had been in contact with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City. On October 29th the New Orleans FBI field office tells Hosty that there is a change of address postal card to 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Texas. Also on the 29th, Hosty interviews a neighbor living at 2519 West Fifth Street to find out who's at 2515 West Fifth Street and learns the name Ruth Paine. On Oct 31st Hosty does a credit check on the Paines. And does some further investigation on the Paines. Hosty is led to believe that Lee had abandoned Marina and the kids. On Nov 1st Hosty interviews Ruth Paine who tells him she thinks Lee is living somewhere in the Oak Cliff section, but she doesn't know where. She tells him Lee worked at the Texas School Book Depository at 411 Elm Street.

So, it wasn't via some mysterious note. So, there is no missing exhibit number. Hosty wrote FBI reports. He should have, he was an FBI agent. It was part of his job to write reports.

You are mistaken in the belief that Hosty discovered where Oswald worked by some "note." You're conflating the note Oswald allegedly left for Hosty, which people did not know about until the 1970's. This note was written by Oswald to Hosty to get Hosty to stop bothering Marina.

Hosty is not really questioned by John J. McCloy, but primarily by a Mr. Stern, a counsellor for the Warren Commission.

On Monday Nov 4th, Hosty calls the TSBD and verifies LHO works there. Also, on Nov 4th Hosty requests that Dallas now becomes the "office of origin," as he had now proof that the Oswalds were in Dallas. On Nov 5th Hosty tries to learn where Lee is living. He goes to Ruth Paine's house. She doesn't know the exact address.

During Hosty's testimony he does refer to the fact that once information is written down into formal FBI reports the notes are routinely destroyed. This seems akin to a newspaperman's notes not being kept after he writes up a story and it is then published in the newspaper. There's nothing sinister there. But, he does say he has notes from Nov. 1963 when questioned by McCloy.

Hosty did know Lee Oswald worked at the TSBD but he was not aware of the motorcade route or that the presidential limo would pass by the TSBD. (4H460) Hosty further commented that there was no contact between the FBI and the Secret Service about the motorcade route before the assassination. However, on the 21st Hosty gave them some information about the "Wanted for Treason" poster, some guy in Denton who said something about JFK, and the possibility of some picketing.

So, Hosty never did confirm where Lee Oswald was living prior to the assassination.

What other notes are you talking about that went to Helms?

This is totally ass backwards - "It seems to be a certainty that people in Washington knew where Oswald was working and if they were planning an assassination of the President that would involve Oswald it would have to occur in Dealy Plaza. Controlling the landing time of Air Force One would be an integral part in the accomplishment of their goal."

Setting up the patsy was an integral part of the plot. Of course you need to have him near the shooting. The landing of Air Force One has nothing to do with anything other than getting JFK to Dallas and starting a motorcade. Read Jerry Bruno's book. If you had, which you obviously haven't, you'd know that Gov. John Connally promised Bruno that Texas Christian University was going to give JFK an honorary degree only to have Connally yank that idea away at the last moment, which necessitated the need for a Dallas motorcade. Getting bags and people onto Air Force One after the Ft. Worth motorcade and the flight over to Dallas would eat up the hole in the schedule now that JFK was not going to have a luncheon affair at TCU.

And again you stick to your ridiculous theory, "After speaking in Fort Worth on the morning of the assassination Kennedy, I believe, returned to his hotel and had a period of down time until the planned departure of AF1. Air Force One had a rather large window of time that could have been used to reach Dallas and Kennedy could have been driven the short distance to Dallas in the time that was available but the reality is Kennedy's assassination could only have occured the way it did based upon the landing time of Air Force One at Love Field." - What total BS.

Down time??? There was a motorcade in Ft. Worth! There was no "down time." After the breakfast with the Ft. Worth Chamber of Commerce, hastily arranged by Bruno when the TCU plan fell through, thanks to Connally's mischief, JFK and Co. had a motorcade to Carswell AFB. They took a scenic route to avoid where the TFX fighter plane was being built. JFK also stopped here at various points to shake hands and greet various people, like schoolchildren as he drove by. JFK was in a white convertible. Jackie sat between JFK and Connally. They then flew to Dallas.

You're an idiot! Are you related to Robert Morrow in some way?

Kelly, you could learn something from reading Bruno's book too.

Joe Backes

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I received the following email from a person who frequents this site and who I respect very much so I will attempt to answer it for all:

"Jim,

I don't understand. HOW could the landing time and location have any effect on the motorcade reaching Dealey Plaza? The exact time was public as was the exact spot, Gate 28, which was and still is where Air Force One always lands.

And the motorcade progress was actually impeded at two or three places, which put them in Dealey several minutes late.

Perhaps you can explain on the Forum?"

All of my research has centered around questions that I felt had to be answered in logical ways if a theory was to be supported by more that just speculation. In the case of the motorcade we can read the interviews that were conducted with the primary persons connected with mapping the route that the President would follow through downtown Dallas before backtracking toward the Trade Mart where Kennedy would deliver his speech. These people were the normal people that did map routes for the President where ever he visited. There seems to be nothing unsusal in the planning of the route. But upon close inspection there was one deciding factor which guided the planning and distance the motorcade would travel....THE TIME ALOTTED....which was controlled by when Air Force One landed at Love Field. A later arrival time of Air Force One would require a shorter route and an earlier arrival time may have made the route different as well.

What we do know factually is that the last building passed on the route was the TSBD where Oswald worked and that there was just enough time alloted prior to the planning of the actual motorcade route for the men who designed the route to put the President in Dealy Plaza which in turn provided an opportunity for Oswald (or others) to accomplish the assassination. The controlling factor would be the landing time of Air Force One...the rest was protocal that would be understood by the people who controlled the Presidential travel plans.

We also know, factually, that J. P. Hosty had, prior to the design of the motorcade route identified exactly where Oswald was working. Although this note, written by Hosty, seems to have disappeared without a trace and was not given an exhibit number by John J. McCloy while he was questioning Hosty, we must assume, that it, just as Hosty's two other notes about Oswald, made it to the office of Richard Helms!

It seems to be a certainty that people in Washington knew where Oswald was working and if they were planning an assassination of the President that would involve Oswald it would have to occur in Dealy Plaza. Controlling the landing time of Air Force One would be an integral part in the accomplishment of their goal.

After speaking in Fort Worth on the morning of the assassination Kennedy, I believe, returned to his hotel and had a period of down time until the planned departure of AF1. Air Force One had a rather large window of time that could have been used to reach Dallas and Kennedy could have been driven the short distance to Dallas in the time that was available but the reality is Kennedy's assassination could only have occured the way it did based upon the landing time of Air Force One at Love Field.

While everything was made public about the times of the Dallas visit prior to the actual visit those times were all dictated based upon the arrival time of AF1 at Love Field. You control that time and you control the start of a sequence of events that would be necessary for any conspirators to accomplish the assassination of the President as it did in fact occur.

Jim Root

Another related question is why they flew AF1 from Carswell to Love Field at all, I mean its only a few miles and it would have been easier to drive from Fort Worth to Dallas, except for the fact they wanted to do a motorcade through downtown Dallas and hit Dealey Plaza.

And thanks for your analysis, Jim, and others.

BK

JFKcountercoup

This is the stupidest crap I have seen on this forum since Lifton defended the Mary Bledsoe story.

Jim, your whole central premise is staggeringly stupid.

You have not read the basic material on this subject. I'll give you a hint, Jerry Bruno's book, "Advance Man," and Volume 11 of the HSCA report. In volume 11 you'll find a section on the motorcade.

I've given presentations on this topic. I know it backwards and forwards.

Your whole approach is so flawed it's beyond help. You don't go to Dealey Plaza and work backwards to Love Field. What the hell are you doing that for? Are you trying to find some distance measurement? Why? Your statement that "There seems to be nothing unsusal in the planning of the route," SCREAMS OUT LOUD how totally ignorant you are of the whole Texas trip to begin with, and the Dallas motorcade in particular.

When asked to explain your methodology of how in the hell the landing of Air Force One at Love Field has anything to do with the motorcade or the assassination you ignore the question. Instead, you reiterate your unexplained core principal, "But upon close inspection there was one deciding factor which guided the planning and distance the motorcade would travel....THE TIME ALOTTED....which was controlled by when Air Force One landed at Love Field."

What the hell are you talking about? What do you mean "time alloted?" There is no "time allotted." Are you seriously suggesting that assassins are on a deadline? What, are the assassins members of an assassin's union? They're only contracted to start shooting at exactly 12:30 local Dallas time? And if JFK's late they say F-it and walk off?

But, no, it gets better. You think if Air Fore One was "late," it would shorten the motorcade route? What the hell are you talking about? Air Force One isn't a commercial airliner. It didn't have a scheduled landing time at Love Field. And even if it did and was late do you think people were going to say the hell with it and leave? Not even Germans are that anal about promptness.

You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

And how would they shorten the motorcade route? How would that work exactly with a route that was publicized and already had people standing along its path?

NO! The controlling factor was not the landing of Air Force One. There was no "controlling factor," everything was in place well beforehand. Nothing was left to chance. And I think you're trying to say there was, that there was a tight schedule and any deviation would throw the whole thing off and JFK would be saved. That was never a possibility.

JFK and Jackie went to shake hands with people along a fence line at Love Field. That took a few minutes The limo stopped several times so JFK could shake hands. One group had a sign which asked JFK please stop and shake our hands, another time he stopped for a bunch on nuns. That took some time.

This paragraph of yours also details your total ignorance of the case - "We also know, factually, that J. P. Hosty had, prior to the design of the motorcade route identified exactly where Oswald was working. Although this note, written by Hosty, seems to have disappeared without a trace and was not given an exhibit number by John J. McCloy while he was questioning Hosty, we must assume, that it, just as Hosty's two other notes about Oswald, made it to the office of Richard Helms!"

Oh really?

Hosty's WC testimony begins in Volume 4. FBI agent Fain had closed the Lee Harvey Oswald case. Hosty was given Marina Oswald's case. On March 14, Hosty learns that the Oswalds are living at 214 Neely St. Hosty learns that Lee has a contact with the New York Daily Worker from info received from the NYC FBI field Office. Hosty asks for the LHO case to be reopened. Hosty says he waited 45 days as a "cooling off period," because of what he thought were their marital difficulties which led to them being evicted from their previous apartment on Elsbeth street. So, in May he wants to check up on them. By then they were out of the Neely St address and left no forwarding address. Hosty's requests to reopen the LHO case on March 25th was accepted in late March, 1963. On June 17th, Hosty learns that LHO is now in New Orleans. Hosty corresponds with the New Orleans FBI field office during the summer of 1963. Hosty requested New Orleans to verify LHO was there. They do and inform Hosty. In August the New Orleans FBI field office takes control of the Oswald case, since the Oswald's are living in New Orleans they now get control of the Oswald file. New Orleans is now considered the "office of origin," to use FBI parlance since the subjects under investigation now live there. Any other FBI field office assisting in such a case would be called an auxiliary office. So, Hosty does not have jurisdiction, control, or any authority over the Oswald case as we head into the Fall of 1963. Hosty doesn't even learn about Oswald handing out leaflets on the streets of New Orleans until 6 to 7 weeks after the fact. There was no "Fair Play For Cuba Committee" in Dallas so Hosty wasn't concerned about an old event that happened in New Orleans. On October 3rd, New Orleans advises Hosty that the Oswald have left. Dallas now becomes the office of origin and the case is reopened for Hosty. All the New Orleans people know is that Marina left with a woman in a station wagon with Texas license plates, and the female driver could speak Russian. Lee had disappeared. The New Orleans FBI people did not know the name Ruth Paine, nor did Hosty. Hosty checks to see if the Oswalds have returned to the Ft. Worth or Dallas area. On October 25th Hosty learns that Lee had been in contact with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City. On October 29th the New Orleans FBI field office tells Hosty that there is a change of address postal card to 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Texas. Also on the 29th, Hosty interviews a neighbor living at 2519 West Fifth Street to find out who's at 2515 West Fifth Street and learns the name Ruth Paine. On Oct 31st Hosty does a credit check on the Paines. And does some further investigation on the Paines. Hosty is led to believe that Lee had abandoned Marina and the kids. On Nov 1st Hosty interviews Ruth Paine who tells him she thinks Lee is living somewhere in the Oak Cliff section, but she doesn't know where. She tells him Lee worked at the Texas School Book Depository at 411 Elm Street.

So, it wasn't via some mysterious note. So, there is no missing exhibit number. Hosty wrote FBI reports. He should have, he was an FBI agent. It was part of his job to write reports.

You are mistaken in the belief that Hosty discovered where Oswald worked by some "note." You're conflating the note Oswald allegedly left for Hosty, which people did not know about until the 1970's. This note was written by Oswald to Hosty to get Hosty to stop bothering Marina.

Hosty is not really questioned by John J. McCloy, but primarily by a Mr. Stern, a counsellor for the Warren Commission.

On Monday Nov 4th, Hosty calls the TSBD and verifies LHO works there. Also, on Nov 4th Hosty requests that Dallas now becomes the "office of origin," as he had now proof that the Oswalds were in Dallas. On Nov 5th Hosty tries to learn where Lee is living. He goes to Ruth Paine's house. She doesn't know the exact address.

During Hosty's testimony he does refer to the fact that once information is written down into formal FBI reports the notes are routinely destroyed. This seems akin to a newspaperman's notes not being kept after he writes up a story and it is then published in the newspaper. There's nothing sinister there. But, he does say he has notes from Nov. 1963 when questioned by McCloy.

Hosty did know Lee Oswald worked at the TSBD but he was not aware of the motorcade route or that the presidential limo would pass by the TSBD. (4H460) Hosty further commented that there was no contact between the FBI and the Secret Service about the motorcade route before the assassination. However, on the 21st Hosty gave them some information about the "Wanted for Treason" poster, some guy in Denton who said something about JFK, and the possibility of some picketing.

So, Hosty never did confirm where Lee Oswald was living prior to the assassination.

What other notes are you talking about that went to Helms?

This is totally ass backwards - "It seems to be a certainty that people in Washington knew where Oswald was working and if they were planning an assassination of the President that would involve Oswald it would have to occur in Dealy Plaza. Controlling the landing time of Air Force One would be an integral part in the accomplishment of their goal."

Setting up the patsy was an integral part of the plot. Of course you need to have him near the shooting. The landing of Air Force One has nothing to do with anything other than getting JFK to Dallas and starting a motorcade. Read Jerry Bruno's book. If you had, which you obviously haven't, you'd know that Gov. John Connally promised Bruno that Texas Christian University was going to give JFK an honorary degree only to have Connally yank that idea away at the last moment, which necessitated the need for a Dallas motorcade. Getting bags and people onto Air Force One after the Ft. Worth motorcade and the flight over to Dallas would eat up the hole in the schedule now that JFK was not going to have a luncheon affair at TCU.

And again you stick to your ridiculous theory, "After speaking in Fort Worth on the morning of the assassination Kennedy, I believe, returned to his hotel and had a period of down time until the planned departure of AF1. Air Force One had a rather large window of time that could have been used to reach Dallas and Kennedy could have been driven the short distance to Dallas in the time that was available but the reality is Kennedy's assassination could only have occured the way it did based upon the landing time of Air Force One at Love Field." - What total BS.

Down time??? There was a motorcade in Ft. Worth! There was no "down time." After the breakfast with the Ft. Worth Chamber of Commerce, hastily arranged by Bruno when the TCU plan fell through, thanks to Connally's mischief, JFK and Co. had a motorcade to Carswell AFB. They took a scenic route to avoid where the TFX fighter plane was being built. JFK also stopped here at various points to shake hands and greet various people, like schoolchildren as he drove by. JFK was in a white convertible. Jackie sat between JFK and Connally. They then flew to Dallas.

You're an idiot! Are you related to Robert Morrow in some way?

Kelly, you could learn something from reading Bruno's book too.

Joe Backes

Joe, You are the idiot.

I have read Bruno's book. He wasn't in Dallas at the time.

And there was a Down Time in Fort Worth, you would know about if you read the Fort Worth Advance man's report in Prologue, which I posted here last week.

And Jim Root, don't take Backes' post seriously, as you are on the right track, he's not familiar with your work, and is talking off the top of his head without thinking.

BK

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This is the stupidest crap I have seen on this forum since Lifton defended the Mary Bledsoe story.

Jim, your whole central premise is staggeringly stupid.

You have not read the basic material on this subject. I'll give you a hint, Jerry Bruno's book, "Advance Man," and Volume 11 of the HSCA report. In volume 11 you'll find a section on the motorcade.

I've given presentations on this topic. I know it backwards and forwards.

Your whole approach is so flawed it's beyond help. You don't go to Dealey Plaza and work backwards to Love Field. What the hell are you doing that for? Are you trying to find some distance measurement? Why? Your statement that "There seems to be nothing unsusal in the planning of the route," SCREAMS OUT LOUD how totally ignorant you are of the whole Texas trip to begin with, and the Dallas motorcade in particular.

When asked to explain your methodology of how in the hell the landing of Air Force One at Love Field has anything to do with the motorcade or the assassination you ignore the question. Instead, you reiterate your unexplained core principal, "But upon close inspection there was one deciding factor which guided the planning and distance the motorcade would travel....THE TIME ALOTTED....which was controlled by when Air Force One landed at Love Field."

What the hell are you talking about? What do you mean "time alloted?" There is no "time allotted." Are you seriously suggesting that assassins are on a deadline? What, are the assassins members of an assassin's union? They're only contracted to start shooting at exactly 12:30 local Dallas time? And if JFK's late they say F-it and walk off?

But, no, it gets better. You think if Air Fore One was "late," it would shorten the motorcade route? What the hell are you talking about? Air Force One isn't a commercial airliner. It didn't have a scheduled landing time at Love Field. And even if it did and was late do you think people were going to say the hell with it and leave? Not even Germans are that anal about promptness.

You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

And how would they shorten the motorcade route? How would that work exactly with a route that was publicized and already had people standing along its path?

NO! The controlling factor was not the landing of Air Force One. There was no "controlling factor," everything was in place well beforehand. Nothing was left to chance. And I think you're trying to say there was, that there was a tight schedule and any deviation would throw the whole thing off and JFK would be saved. That was never a possibility.

JFK and Jackie went to shake hands with people along a fence line at Love Field. That took a few minutes The limo stopped several times so JFK could shake hands. One group had a sign which asked JFK please stop and shake our hands, another time he stopped for a bunch on nuns. That took some time.

This paragraph of yours also details your total ignorance of the case - "We also know, factually, that J. P. Hosty had, prior to the design of the motorcade route identified exactly where Oswald was working. Although this note, written by Hosty, seems to have disappeared without a trace and was not given an exhibit number by John J. McCloy while he was questioning Hosty, we must assume, that it, just as Hosty's two other notes about Oswald, made it to the office of Richard Helms!"

Oh really?

Hosty's WC testimony begins in Volume 4. FBI agent Fain had closed the Lee Harvey Oswald case. Hosty was given Marina Oswald's case. On March 14, Hosty learns that the Oswalds are living at 214 Neely St. Hosty learns that Lee has a contact with the New York Daily Worker from info received from the NYC FBI field Office. Hosty asks for the LHO case to be reopened. Hosty says he waited 45 days as a "cooling off period," because of what he thought were their marital difficulties which led to them being evicted from their previous apartment on Elsbeth street. So, in May he wants to check up on them. By then they were out of the Neely St address and left no forwarding address. Hosty's requests to reopen the LHO case on March 25th was accepted in late March, 1963. On June 17th, Hosty learns that LHO is now in New Orleans. Hosty corresponds with the New Orleans FBI field office during the summer of 1963. Hosty requested New Orleans to verify LHO was there. They do and inform Hosty. In August the New Orleans FBI field office takes control of the Oswald case, since the Oswald's are living in New Orleans they now get control of the Oswald file. New Orleans is now considered the "office of origin," to use FBI parlance since the subjects under investigation now live there. Any other FBI field office assisting in such a case would be called an auxiliary office. So, Hosty does not have jurisdiction, control, or any authority over the Oswald case as we head into the Fall of 1963. Hosty doesn't even learn about Oswald handing out leaflets on the streets of New Orleans until 6 to 7 weeks after the fact. There was no "Fair Play For Cuba Committee" in Dallas so Hosty wasn't concerned about an old event that happened in New Orleans. On October 3rd, New Orleans advises Hosty that the Oswald have left. Dallas now becomes the office of origin and the case is reopened for Hosty. All the New Orleans people know is that Marina left with a woman in a station wagon with Texas license plates, and the female driver could speak Russian. Lee had disappeared. The New Orleans FBI people did not know the name Ruth Paine, nor did Hosty. Hosty checks to see if the Oswalds have returned to the Ft. Worth or Dallas area. On October 25th Hosty learns that Lee had been in contact with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City. On October 29th the New Orleans FBI field office tells Hosty that there is a change of address postal card to 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Texas. Also on the 29th, Hosty interviews a neighbor living at 2519 West Fifth Street to find out who's at 2515 West Fifth Street and learns the name Ruth Paine. On Oct 31st Hosty does a credit check on the Paines. And does some further investigation on the Paines. Hosty is led to believe that Lee had abandoned Marina and the kids. On Nov 1st Hosty interviews Ruth Paine who tells him she thinks Lee is living somewhere in the Oak Cliff section, but she doesn't know where. She tells him Lee worked at the Texas School Book Depository at 411 Elm Street.

So, it wasn't via some mysterious note. So, there is no missing exhibit number. Hosty wrote FBI reports. He should have, he was an FBI agent. It was part of his job to write reports.

You are mistaken in the belief that Hosty discovered where Oswald worked by some "note." You're conflating the note Oswald allegedly left for Hosty, which people did not know about until the 1970's. This note was written by Oswald to Hosty to get Hosty to stop bothering Marina.

Hosty is not really questioned by John J. McCloy, but primarily by a Mr. Stern, a counsellor for the Warren Commission.

On Monday Nov 4th, Hosty calls the TSBD and verifies LHO works there. Also, on Nov 4th Hosty requests that Dallas now becomes the "office of origin," as he had now proof that the Oswalds were in Dallas. On Nov 5th Hosty tries to learn where Lee is living. He goes to Ruth Paine's house. She doesn't know the exact address.

During Hosty's testimony he does refer to the fact that once information is written down into formal FBI reports the notes are routinely destroyed. This seems akin to a newspaperman's notes not being kept after he writes up a story and it is then published in the newspaper. There's nothing sinister there. But, he does say he has notes from Nov. 1963 when questioned by McCloy.

Hosty did know Lee Oswald worked at the TSBD but he was not aware of the motorcade route or that the presidential limo would pass by the TSBD. (4H460) Hosty further commented that there was no contact between the FBI and the Secret Service about the motorcade route before the assassination. However, on the 21st Hosty gave them some information about the "Wanted for Treason" poster, some guy in Denton who said something about JFK, and the possibility of some picketing.

So, Hosty never did confirm where Lee Oswald was living prior to the assassination.

What other notes are you talking about that went to Helms?

This is totally ass backwards - "It seems to be a certainty that people in Washington knew where Oswald was working and if they were planning an assassination of the President that would involve Oswald it would have to occur in Dealy Plaza. Controlling the landing time of Air Force One would be an integral part in the accomplishment of their goal."

Setting up the patsy was an integral part of the plot. Of course you need to have him near the shooting. The landing of Air Force One has nothing to do with anything other than getting JFK to Dallas and starting a motorcade. Read Jerry Bruno's book. If you had, which you obviously haven't, you'd know that Gov. John Connally promised Bruno that Texas Christian University was going to give JFK an honorary degree only to have Connally yank that idea away at the last moment, which necessitated the need for a Dallas motorcade. Getting bags and people onto Air Force One after the Ft. Worth motorcade and the flight over to Dallas would eat up the hole in the schedule now that JFK was not going to have a luncheon affair at TCU.

And again you stick to your ridiculous theory, "After speaking in Fort Worth on the morning of the assassination Kennedy, I believe, returned to his hotel and had a period of down time until the planned departure of AF1. Air Force One had a rather large window of time that could have been used to reach Dallas and Kennedy could have been driven the short distance to Dallas in the time that was available but the reality is Kennedy's assassination could only have occured the way it did based upon the landing time of Air Force One at Love Field." - What total BS.

Down time??? There was a motorcade in Ft. Worth! There was no "down time." After the breakfast with the Ft. Worth Chamber of Commerce, hastily arranged by Bruno when the TCU plan fell through, thanks to Connally's mischief, JFK and Co. had a motorcade to Carswell AFB. They took a scenic route to avoid where the TFX fighter plane was being built. JFK also stopped here at various points to shake hands and greet various people, like schoolchildren as he drove by. JFK was in a white convertible. Jackie sat between JFK and Connally. They then flew to Dallas.

You're an idiot! Are you related to Robert Morrow in some way?

Kelly, you could learn something from reading Bruno's book too.

Joe Backes

Joe,

I have bolded all the parts of your post which nearly every member here would find objectionable. I have read some of your work, and was predisposed to think you were a pretty good researcher. However, in your infrequent posts on this forum, you have displayed a hot headed style that even the most difficult posters here don't approach.

You obviously know that calling someone an "idiot" is unacceptable. And how many times do you have to write "you don't know what the hell you're talking about" in a single post? Do you normally discuss this subject with others in such a nasty, angry way? What are YOU so mad about? For the record, I don't agree with Jim Root's theory here, either, and I certainly don't buy Mary Bledsoe's story. You could have expressed your views in a civil way, and been much more effective in debating this issue.

Can you drop the excessively combative tone? I'm sure you have some good input to offer.

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I received the following email from a person who frequents this site and who I respect very much so I will attempt to answer it for all:

"Jim,

I don't understand. HOW could the landing time and location have any effect on the motorcade reaching Dealey Plaza? The exact time was public as was the exact spot, Gate 28, which was and still is where Air Force One always lands.

And the motorcade progress was actually impeded at two or three places, which put them in Dealey several minutes late.

Perhaps you can explain on the Forum?"

All of my research has centered around questions that I felt had to be answered in logical ways if a theory was to be supported by more that just speculation. In the case of the motorcade we can read the interviews that were conducted with the primary persons connected with mapping the route that the President would follow through downtown Dallas before backtracking toward the Trade Mart where Kennedy would deliver his speech. These people were the normal people that did map routes for the President where ever he visited. There seems to be nothing unsusal in the planning of the route. But upon close inspection there was one deciding factor which guided the planning and distance the motorcade would travel....THE TIME ALOTTED....which was controlled by when Air Force One landed at Love Field. A later arrival time of Air Force One would require a shorter route and an earlier arrival time may have made the route different as well.

What we do know factually is that the last building passed on the route was the TSBD where Oswald worked and that there was just enough time alloted prior to the planning of the actual motorcade route for the men who designed the route to put the President in Dealy Plaza which in turn provided an opportunity for Oswald (or others) to accomplish the assassination. The controlling factor would be the landing time of Air Force One...the rest was protocal that would be understood by the people who controlled the Presidential travel plans.

We also know, factually, that J. P. Hosty had, prior to the design of the motorcade route identified exactly where Oswald was working. Although this note, written by Hosty, seems to have disappeared without a trace and was not given an exhibit number by John J. McCloy while he was questioning Hosty, we must assume, that it, just as Hosty's two other notes about Oswald, made it to the office of Richard Helms!

It seems to be a certainty that people in Washington knew where Oswald was working and if they were planning an assassination of the President that would involve Oswald it would have to occur in Dealy Plaza. Controlling the landing time of Air Force One would be an integral part in the accomplishment of their goal.

After speaking in Fort Worth on the morning of the assassination Kennedy, I believe, returned to his hotel and had a period of down time until the planned departure of AF1. Air Force One had a rather large window of time that could have been used to reach Dallas and Kennedy could have been driven the short distance to Dallas in the time that was available but the reality is Kennedy's assassination could only have occured the way it did based upon the landing time of Air Force One at Love Field.

While everything was made public about the times of the Dallas visit prior to the actual visit those times were all dictated based upon the arrival time of AF1 at Love Field. You control that time and you control the start of a sequence of events that would be necessary for any conspirators to accomplish the assassination of the President as it did in fact occur.

Jim Root

Another related question is why they flew AF1 from Carswell to Love Field at all, I mean its only a few miles and it would have been easier to drive from Fort Worth to Dallas, except for the fact they wanted to do a motorcade through downtown Dallas and hit Dealey Plaza.

And thanks for your analysis, Jim, and others.

BK

JFKcountercoup

This is the stupidest crap I have seen on this forum since Lifton defended the Mary Bledsoe story.

Jim, your whole central premise is staggeringly stupid.

You have not read the basic material on this subject. I'll give you a hint, Jerry Bruno's book, "Advance Man," and Volume 11 of the HSCA report. In volume 11 you'll find a section on the motorcade.

I've given presentations on this topic. I know it backwards and forwards.

Your whole approach is so flawed it's beyond help. You don't go to Dealey Plaza and work backwards to Love Field. What the hell are you doing that for? Are you trying to find some distance measurement? Why? Your statement that "There seems to be nothing unsusal in the planning of the route," SCREAMS OUT LOUD how totally ignorant you are of the whole Texas trip to begin with, and the Dallas motorcade in particular.

When asked to explain your methodology of how in the hell the landing of Air Force One at Love Field has anything to do with the motorcade or the assassination you ignore the question. Instead, you reiterate your unexplained core principal, "But upon close inspection there was one deciding factor which guided the planning and distance the motorcade would travel....THE TIME ALOTTED....which was controlled by when Air Force One landed at Love Field."

What the hell are you talking about? What do you mean "time alloted?" There is no "time allotted." Are you seriously suggesting that assassins are on a deadline? What, are the assassins members of an assassin's union? They're only contracted to start shooting at exactly 12:30 local Dallas time? And if JFK's late they say F-it and walk off?

But, no, it gets better. You think if Air Fore One was "late," it would shorten the motorcade route? What the hell are you talking about? Air Force One isn't a commercial airliner. It didn't have a scheduled landing time at Love Field. And even if it did and was late do you think people were going to say the hell with it and leave? Not even Germans are that anal about promptness.

You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

And how would they shorten the motorcade route? How would that work exactly with a route that was publicized and already had people standing along its path?

NO! The controlling factor was not the landing of Air Force One. There was no "controlling factor," everything was in place well beforehand. Nothing was left to chance. And I think you're trying to say there was, that there was a tight schedule and any deviation would throw the whole thing off and JFK would be saved. That was never a possibility.

JFK and Jackie went to shake hands with people along a fence line at Love Field. That took a few minutes The limo stopped several times so JFK could shake hands. One group had a sign which asked JFK please stop and shake our hands, another time he stopped for a bunch on nuns. That took some time.

This paragraph of yours also details your total ignorance of the case - "We also know, factually, that J. P. Hosty had, prior to the design of the motorcade route identified exactly where Oswald was working. Although this note, written by Hosty, seems to have disappeared without a trace and was not given an exhibit number by John J. McCloy while he was questioning Hosty, we must assume, that it, just as Hosty's two other notes about Oswald, made it to the office of Richard Helms!"

Oh really?

Hosty's WC testimony begins in Volume 4. FBI agent Fain had closed the Lee Harvey Oswald case. Hosty was given Marina Oswald's case. On March 14, Hosty learns that the Oswalds are living at 214 Neely St. Hosty learns that Lee has a contact with the New York Daily Worker from info received from the NYC FBI field Office. Hosty asks for the LHO case to be reopened. Hosty says he waited 45 days as a "cooling off period," because of what he thought were their marital difficulties which led to them being evicted from their previous apartment on Elsbeth street. So, in May he wants to check up on them. By then they were out of the Neely St address and left no forwarding address. Hosty's requests to reopen the LHO case on March 25th was accepted in late March, 1963. On June 17th, Hosty learns that LHO is now in New Orleans. Hosty corresponds with the New Orleans FBI field office during the summer of 1963. Hosty requested New Orleans to verify LHO was there. They do and inform Hosty. In August the New Orleans FBI field office takes control of the Oswald case, since the Oswald's are living in New Orleans they now get control of the Oswald file. New Orleans is now considered the "office of origin," to use FBI parlance since the subjects under investigation now live there. Any other FBI field office assisting in such a case would be called an auxiliary office. So, Hosty does not have jurisdiction, control, or any authority over the Oswald case as we head into the Fall of 1963. Hosty doesn't even learn about Oswald handing out leaflets on the streets of New Orleans until 6 to 7 weeks after the fact. There was no "Fair Play For Cuba Committee" in Dallas so Hosty wasn't concerned about an old event that happened in New Orleans. On October 3rd, New Orleans advises Hosty that the Oswald have left. Dallas now becomes the office of origin and the case is reopened for Hosty. All the New Orleans people know is that Marina left with a woman in a station wagon with Texas license plates, and the female driver could speak Russian. Lee had disappeared. The New Orleans FBI people did not know the name Ruth Paine, nor did Hosty. Hosty checks to see if the Oswalds have returned to the Ft. Worth or Dallas area. On October 25th Hosty learns that Lee had been in contact with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City. On October 29th the New Orleans FBI field office tells Hosty that there is a change of address postal card to 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Texas. Also on the 29th, Hosty interviews a neighbor living at 2519 West Fifth Street to find out who's at 2515 West Fifth Street and learns the name Ruth Paine. On Oct 31st Hosty does a credit check on the Paines. And does some further investigation on the Paines. Hosty is led to believe that Lee had abandoned Marina and the kids. On Nov 1st Hosty interviews Ruth Paine who tells him she thinks Lee is living somewhere in the Oak Cliff section, but she doesn't know where. She tells him Lee worked at the Texas School Book Depository at 411 Elm Street.

So, it wasn't via some mysterious note. So, there is no missing exhibit number. Hosty wrote FBI reports. He should have, he was an FBI agent. It was part of his job to write reports.

You are mistaken in the belief that Hosty discovered where Oswald worked by some "note." You're conflating the note Oswald allegedly left for Hosty, which people did not know about until the 1970's. This note was written by Oswald to Hosty to get Hosty to stop bothering Marina.

Hosty is not really questioned by John J. McCloy, but primarily by a Mr. Stern, a counsellor for the Warren Commission.

On Monday Nov 4th, Hosty calls the TSBD and verifies LHO works there. Also, on Nov 4th Hosty requests that Dallas now becomes the "office of origin," as he had now proof that the Oswalds were in Dallas. On Nov 5th Hosty tries to learn where Lee is living. He goes to Ruth Paine's house. She doesn't know the exact address.

During Hosty's testimony he does refer to the fact that once information is written down into formal FBI reports the notes are routinely destroyed. This seems akin to a newspaperman's notes not being kept after he writes up a story and it is then published in the newspaper. There's nothing sinister there. But, he does say he has notes from Nov. 1963 when questioned by McCloy.

Hosty did know Lee Oswald worked at the TSBD but he was not aware of the motorcade route or that the presidential limo would pass by the TSBD. (4H460) Hosty further commented that there was no contact between the FBI and the Secret Service about the motorcade route before the assassination. However, on the 21st Hosty gave them some information about the "Wanted for Treason" poster, some guy in Denton who said something about JFK, and the possibility of some picketing.

So, Hosty never did confirm where Lee Oswald was living prior to the assassination.

What other notes are you talking about that went to Helms?

This is totally ass backwards - "It seems to be a certainty that people in Washington knew where Oswald was working and if they were planning an assassination of the President that would involve Oswald it would have to occur in Dealy Plaza. Controlling the landing time of Air Force One would be an integral part in the accomplishment of their goal."

Setting up the patsy was an integral part of the plot. Of course you need to have him near the shooting. The landing of Air Force One has nothing to do with anything other than getting JFK to Dallas and starting a motorcade. Read Jerry Bruno's book. If you had, which you obviously haven't, you'd know that Gov. John Connally promised Bruno that Texas Christian University was going to give JFK an honorary degree only to have Connally yank that idea away at the last moment, which necessitated the need for a Dallas motorcade. Getting bags and people onto Air Force One after the Ft. Worth motorcade and the flight over to Dallas would eat up the hole in the schedule now that JFK was not going to have a luncheon affair at TCU.

And again you stick to your ridiculous theory, "After speaking in Fort Worth on the morning of the assassination Kennedy, I believe, returned to his hotel and had a period of down time until the planned departure of AF1. Air Force One had a rather large window of time that could have been used to reach Dallas and Kennedy could have been driven the short distance to Dallas in the time that was available but the reality is Kennedy's assassination could only have occured the way it did based upon the landing time of Air Force One at Love Field." - What total BS.

Down time??? There was a motorcade in Ft. Worth! There was no "down time." After the breakfast with the Ft. Worth Chamber of Commerce, hastily arranged by Bruno when the TCU plan fell through, thanks to Connally's mischief, JFK and Co. had a motorcade to Carswell AFB. They took a scenic route to avoid where the TFX fighter plane was being built. JFK also stopped here at various points to shake hands and greet various people, like schoolchildren as he drove by. JFK was in a white convertible. Jackie sat between JFK and Connally. They then flew to Dallas.

You're an idiot! Are you related to Robert Morrow in some way?

Kelly, you could learn something from reading Bruno's book too.

Joe Backes

Joe, You are the idiot.

I have read Bruno's book. He wasn't in Dallas at the time.

And there was a Down Time in Fort Worth, you would know about if you read the Fort Worth Advance man's report in Prologue, which I posted here last week.

And Jim Root, don't take Backes' post seriously, as you are on the right track, he's not familiar with your work, and is talking off the top of his head without thinking.

BK

Bill,

You are completely hopeless. Bruno's book details a lot of the Connally shenanigans about the Texas trip. For you to dismiss it claiming he wasn't there in Dallas in November or on the day of the assassination is like dismissing D-Day because Ike didn't hit the beaches. Bruno's account is ESSENTIAL reading. That's why he'd not mentioned in the Warren Commission report's study of the origins of the Texas trip and the Dallas motorcade.

Jim Root is not on the right track. He's off the rails completely.

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This is the stupidest crap I have seen on this forum since Lifton defended the Mary Bledsoe story.

Jim, your whole central premise is staggeringly stupid.

You have not read the basic material on this subject. I'll give you a hint, Jerry Bruno's book, "Advance Man," and Volume 11 of the HSCA report. In volume 11 you'll find a section on the motorcade.

I've given presentations on this topic. I know it backwards and forwards.

Your whole approach is so flawed it's beyond help. You don't go to Dealey Plaza and work backwards to Love Field. What the hell are you doing that for? Are you trying to find some distance measurement? Why? Your statement that "There seems to be nothing unsusal in the planning of the route," SCREAMS OUT LOUD how totally ignorant you are of the whole Texas trip to begin with, and the Dallas motorcade in particular.

When asked to explain your methodology of how in the hell the landing of Air Force One at Love Field has anything to do with the motorcade or the assassination you ignore the question. Instead, you reiterate your unexplained core principal, "But upon close inspection there was one deciding factor which guided the planning and distance the motorcade would travel....THE TIME ALOTTED....which was controlled by when Air Force One landed at Love Field."

What the hell are you talking about? What do you mean "time alloted?" There is no "time allotted." Are you seriously suggesting that assassins are on a deadline? What, are the assassins members of an assassin's union? They're only contracted to start shooting at exactly 12:30 local Dallas time? And if JFK's late they say F-it and walk off?

But, no, it gets better. You think if Air Fore One was "late," it would shorten the motorcade route? What the hell are you talking about? Air Force One isn't a commercial airliner. It didn't have a scheduled landing time at Love Field. And even if it did and was late do you think people were going to say the hell with it and leave? Not even Germans are that anal about promptness.

You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

And how would they shorten the motorcade route? How would that work exactly with a route that was publicized and already had people standing along its path?

NO! The controlling factor was not the landing of Air Force One. There was no "controlling factor," everything was in place well beforehand. Nothing was left to chance. And I think you're trying to say there was, that there was a tight schedule and any deviation would throw the whole thing off and JFK would be saved. That was never a possibility.

JFK and Jackie went to shake hands with people along a fence line at Love Field. That took a few minutes The limo stopped several times so JFK could shake hands. One group had a sign which asked JFK please stop and shake our hands, another time he stopped for a bunch on nuns. That took some time.

This paragraph of yours also details your total ignorance of the case - "We also know, factually, that J. P. Hosty had, prior to the design of the motorcade route identified exactly where Oswald was working. Although this note, written by Hosty, seems to have disappeared without a trace and was not given an exhibit number by John J. McCloy while he was questioning Hosty, we must assume, that it, just as Hosty's two other notes about Oswald, made it to the office of Richard Helms!"

Oh really?

Hosty's WC testimony begins in Volume 4. FBI agent Fain had closed the Lee Harvey Oswald case. Hosty was given Marina Oswald's case. On March 14, Hosty learns that the Oswalds are living at 214 Neely St. Hosty learns that Lee has a contact with the New York Daily Worker from info received from the NYC FBI field Office. Hosty asks for the LHO case to be reopened. Hosty says he waited 45 days as a "cooling off period," because of what he thought were their marital difficulties which led to them being evicted from their previous apartment on Elsbeth street. So, in May he wants to check up on them. By then they were out of the Neely St address and left no forwarding address. Hosty's requests to reopen the LHO case on March 25th was accepted in late March, 1963. On June 17th, Hosty learns that LHO is now in New Orleans. Hosty corresponds with the New Orleans FBI field office during the summer of 1963. Hosty requested New Orleans to verify LHO was there. They do and inform Hosty. In August the New Orleans FBI field office takes control of the Oswald case, since the Oswald's are living in New Orleans they now get control of the Oswald file. New Orleans is now considered the "office of origin," to use FBI parlance since the subjects under investigation now live there. Any other FBI field office assisting in such a case would be called an auxiliary office. So, Hosty does not have jurisdiction, control, or any authority over the Oswald case as we head into the Fall of 1963. Hosty doesn't even learn about Oswald handing out leaflets on the streets of New Orleans until 6 to 7 weeks after the fact. There was no "Fair Play For Cuba Committee" in Dallas so Hosty wasn't concerned about an old event that happened in New Orleans. On October 3rd, New Orleans advises Hosty that the Oswald have left. Dallas now becomes the office of origin and the case is reopened for Hosty. All the New Orleans people know is that Marina left with a woman in a station wagon with Texas license plates, and the female driver could speak Russian. Lee had disappeared. The New Orleans FBI people did not know the name Ruth Paine, nor did Hosty. Hosty checks to see if the Oswalds have returned to the Ft. Worth or Dallas area. On October 25th Hosty learns that Lee had been in contact with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City. On October 29th the New Orleans FBI field office tells Hosty that there is a change of address postal card to 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Texas. Also on the 29th, Hosty interviews a neighbor living at 2519 West Fifth Street to find out who's at 2515 West Fifth Street and learns the name Ruth Paine. On Oct 31st Hosty does a credit check on the Paines. And does some further investigation on the Paines. Hosty is led to believe that Lee had abandoned Marina and the kids. On Nov 1st Hosty interviews Ruth Paine who tells him she thinks Lee is living somewhere in the Oak Cliff section, but she doesn't know where. She tells him Lee worked at the Texas School Book Depository at 411 Elm Street.

So, it wasn't via some mysterious note. So, there is no missing exhibit number. Hosty wrote FBI reports. He should have, he was an FBI agent. It was part of his job to write reports.

You are mistaken in the belief that Hosty discovered where Oswald worked by some "note." You're conflating the note Oswald allegedly left for Hosty, which people did not know about until the 1970's. This note was written by Oswald to Hosty to get Hosty to stop bothering Marina.

Hosty is not really questioned by John J. McCloy, but primarily by a Mr. Stern, a counsellor for the Warren Commission.

On Monday Nov 4th, Hosty calls the TSBD and verifies LHO works there. Also, on Nov 4th Hosty requests that Dallas now becomes the "office of origin," as he had now proof that the Oswalds were in Dallas. On Nov 5th Hosty tries to learn where Lee is living. He goes to Ruth Paine's house. She doesn't know the exact address.

During Hosty's testimony he does refer to the fact that once information is written down into formal FBI reports the notes are routinely destroyed. This seems akin to a newspaperman's notes not being kept after he writes up a story and it is then published in the newspaper. There's nothing sinister there. But, he does say he has notes from Nov. 1963 when questioned by McCloy.

Hosty did know Lee Oswald worked at the TSBD but he was not aware of the motorcade route or that the presidential limo would pass by the TSBD. (4H460) Hosty further commented that there was no contact between the FBI and the Secret Service about the motorcade route before the assassination. However, on the 21st Hosty gave them some information about the "Wanted for Treason" poster, some guy in Denton who said something about JFK, and the possibility of some picketing.

So, Hosty never did confirm where Lee Oswald was living prior to the assassination.

What other notes are you talking about that went to Helms?

This is totally ass backwards - "It seems to be a certainty that people in Washington knew where Oswald was working and if they were planning an assassination of the President that would involve Oswald it would have to occur in Dealy Plaza. Controlling the landing time of Air Force One would be an integral part in the accomplishment of their goal."

Setting up the patsy was an integral part of the plot. Of course you need to have him near the shooting. The landing of Air Force One has nothing to do with anything other than getting JFK to Dallas and starting a motorcade. Read Jerry Bruno's book. If you had, which you obviously haven't, you'd know that Gov. John Connally promised Bruno that Texas Christian University was going to give JFK an honorary degree only to have Connally yank that idea away at the last moment, which necessitated the need for a Dallas motorcade. Getting bags and people onto Air Force One after the Ft. Worth motorcade and the flight over to Dallas would eat up the hole in the schedule now that JFK was not going to have a luncheon affair at TCU.

And again you stick to your ridiculous theory, "After speaking in Fort Worth on the morning of the assassination Kennedy, I believe, returned to his hotel and had a period of down time until the planned departure of AF1. Air Force One had a rather large window of time that could have been used to reach Dallas and Kennedy could have been driven the short distance to Dallas in the time that was available but the reality is Kennedy's assassination could only have occured the way it did based upon the landing time of Air Force One at Love Field." - What total BS.

Down time??? There was a motorcade in Ft. Worth! There was no "down time." After the breakfast with the Ft. Worth Chamber of Commerce, hastily arranged by Bruno when the TCU plan fell through, thanks to Connally's mischief, JFK and Co. had a motorcade to Carswell AFB. They took a scenic route to avoid where the TFX fighter plane was being built. JFK also stopped here at various points to shake hands and greet various people, like schoolchildren as he drove by. JFK was in a white convertible. Jackie sat between JFK and Connally. They then flew to Dallas.

You're an idiot! Are you related to Robert Morrow in some way?

Kelly, you could learn something from reading Bruno's book too.

Joe Backes

Joe,

I have bolded all the parts of your post which nearly every member here would find objectionable. I have read some of your work, and was predisposed to think you were a pretty good researcher. However, in your infrequent posts on this forum, you have displayed a hot headed style that even the most difficult posters here don't approach.

You obviously know that calling someone an "idiot" is unacceptable. And how many times do you have to write "you don't know what the hell you're talking about" in a single post? Do you normally discuss this subject with others in such a nasty, angry way? What are YOU so mad about? For the record, I don't agree with Jim Root's theory here, either, and I certainly don't buy Mary Bledsoe's story. You could have expressed your views in a civil way, and been much more effective in debating this issue.

Can you drop the excessively combative tone? I'm sure you have some good input to offer.

Don,

How can anyone take this forum seriously if people are allowed to post such a clueless post as Jim Root did?

How can anyone take this forum seriously if you're given more and more complementary adjectives about what kind of a poster or researcher you are in this case based solely on how many posts you make on this forum?

Can't someone stand up for quality research for once?

Stop crying about how I criticize and do a little reading and find out why I'm criticizing. Wouldn't it be nice to have a moderator who actually KNOWS something about the case, or at least the particular aspect of the case under discussion showing up? Wouldn't it be nice if a moderator took Root to task for his ignorance? How about a judgement call from a moderator about who's post had the more factual information in it? And who's showed a total lack of understanding of the most basic facts.

"Noting unusual about the planning of the route."

Are you kidding me?

I have all the HSCA documents about the trip. I researched this at the JFK Library. And I went to TCU and researched this too. I KNOW this topic. I have all the material George Michael Evica used in his presentation on this, of which there is an audiotape.

What Root is proposing is total nonsense. Even he can't defend or explain it.

Joe Backes

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Joe,

That's my point exactly- the information you present may be top rate, but when you throw in the kind of language you did, and adopt the confrontational tone you did, then THAT becomes the issue, not the subject matter. At least on moderated forums.

I don't know how you'd expect any moderator to punish a member for their perceived lack of knowledge, or simply being what the majority of researchers would consider "wrong" on a given issue. I've been through this many times here; just because I agree with you (or any other member who posts in an objectionable way) doesn't mean that I condone the manner in which you present your arguments. As I noted, you could have made your points without the gratuitous stuff, and that probably would have resulted in a lot of follow up posts from others agreeing with you.

It really isn't hard to leave out the profanity, and refrain from calling names. I've read some of your online work, and was particularly impressed with the article you wrote about Connally luring JFK to Dallas. That's probably why I'm so disappointed in the way you've expressed yourself in recent posts.

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I received the following email from a person who frequents this site and who I respect very much so I will attempt to answer it for all:

"Jim,

I don't understand. HOW could the landing time and location have any effect on the motorcade reaching Dealey Plaza? The exact time was public as was the exact spot, Gate 28, which was and still is where Air Force One always lands.

And the motorcade progress was actually impeded at two or three places, which put them in Dealey several minutes late.

Perhaps you can explain on the Forum?"

All of my research has centered around questions that I felt had to be answered in logical ways if a theory was to be supported by more that just speculation. In the case of the motorcade we can read the interviews that were conducted with the primary persons connected with mapping the route that the President would follow through downtown Dallas before backtracking toward the Trade Mart where Kennedy would deliver his speech. These people were the normal people that did map routes for the President where ever he visited. There seems to be nothing unsusal in the planning of the route. But upon close inspection there was one deciding factor which guided the planning and distance the motorcade would travel....THE TIME ALOTTED....which was controlled by when Air Force One landed at Love Field. A later arrival time of Air Force One would require a shorter route and an earlier arrival time may have made the route different as well.

What we do know factually is that the last building passed on the route was the TSBD where Oswald worked and that there was just enough time alloted prior to the planning of the actual motorcade route for the men who designed the route to put the President in Dealy Plaza which in turn provided an opportunity for Oswald (or others) to accomplish the assassination. The controlling factor would be the landing time of Air Force One...the rest was protocal that would be understood by the people who controlled the Presidential travel plans.

We also know, factually, that J. P. Hosty had, prior to the design of the motorcade route identified exactly where Oswald was working. Although this note, written by Hosty, seems to have disappeared without a trace and was not given an exhibit number by John J. McCloy while he was questioning Hosty, we must assume, that it, just as Hosty's two other notes about Oswald, made it to the office of Richard Helms!

It seems to be a certainty that people in Washington knew where Oswald was working and if they were planning an assassination of the President that would involve Oswald it would have to occur in Dealy Plaza. Controlling the landing time of Air Force One would be an integral part in the accomplishment of their goal.

After speaking in Fort Worth on the morning of the assassination Kennedy, I believe, returned to his hotel and had a period of down time until the planned departure of AF1. Air Force One had a rather large window of time that could have been used to reach Dallas and Kennedy could have been driven the short distance to Dallas in the time that was available but the reality is Kennedy's assassination could only have occured the way it did based upon the landing time of Air Force One at Love Field.

While everything was made public about the times of the Dallas visit prior to the actual visit those times were all dictated based upon the arrival time of AF1 at Love Field. You control that time and you control the start of a sequence of events that would be necessary for any conspirators to accomplish the assassination of the President as it did in fact occur.

Jim Root

Another related question is why they flew AF1 from Carswell to Love Field at all, I mean its only a few miles and it would have been easier to drive from Fort Worth to Dallas, except for the fact they wanted to do a motorcade through downtown Dallas and hit Dealey Plaza.

And thanks for your analysis, Jim, and others.

BK

JFKcountercoup

This is the stupidest crap I have seen on this forum since Lifton defended the Mary Bledsoe story.

Jim, your whole central premise is staggeringly stupid.

You have not read the basic material on this subject. I'll give you a hint, Jerry Bruno's book, "Advance Man," and Volume 11 of the HSCA report. In volume 11 you'll find a section on the motorcade.

I've given presentations on this topic. I know it backwards and forwards.

Your whole approach is so flawed it's beyond help. You don't go to Dealey Plaza and work backwards to Love Field. What the hell are you doing that for? Are you trying to find some distance measurement? Why? Your statement that "There seems to be nothing unsusal in the planning of the route," SCREAMS OUT LOUD how totally ignorant you are of the whole Texas trip to begin with, and the Dallas motorcade in particular.

When asked to explain your methodology of how in the hell the landing of Air Force One at Love Field has anything to do with the motorcade or the assassination you ignore the question. Instead, you reiterate your unexplained core principal, "But upon close inspection there was one deciding factor which guided the planning and distance the motorcade would travel....THE TIME ALOTTED....which was controlled by when Air Force One landed at Love Field."

What the hell are you talking about? What do you mean "time alloted?" There is no "time allotted." Are you seriously suggesting that assassins are on a deadline? What, are the assassins members of an assassin's union? They're only contracted to start shooting at exactly 12:30 local Dallas time? And if JFK's late they say F-it and walk off?

But, no, it gets better. You think if Air Fore One was "late," it would shorten the motorcade route? What the hell are you talking about? Air Force One isn't a commercial airliner. It didn't have a scheduled landing time at Love Field. And even if it did and was late do you think people were going to say the hell with it and leave? Not even Germans are that anal about promptness.

You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

And how would they shorten the motorcade route? How would that work exactly with a route that was publicized and already had people standing along its path?

NO! The controlling factor was not the landing of Air Force One. There was no "controlling factor," everything was in place well beforehand. Nothing was left to chance. And I think you're trying to say there was, that there was a tight schedule and any deviation would throw the whole thing off and JFK would be saved. That was never a possibility.

JFK and Jackie went to shake hands with people along a fence line at Love Field. That took a few minutes The limo stopped several times so JFK could shake hands. One group had a sign which asked JFK please stop and shake our hands, another time he stopped for a bunch on nuns. That took some time.

This paragraph of yours also details your total ignorance of the case - "We also know, factually, that J. P. Hosty had, prior to the design of the motorcade route identified exactly where Oswald was working. Although this note, written by Hosty, seems to have disappeared without a trace and was not given an exhibit number by John J. McCloy while he was questioning Hosty, we must assume, that it, just as Hosty's two other notes about Oswald, made it to the office of Richard Helms!"

Oh really?

Hosty's WC testimony begins in Volume 4. FBI agent Fain had closed the Lee Harvey Oswald case. Hosty was given Marina Oswald's case. On March 14, Hosty learns that the Oswalds are living at 214 Neely St. Hosty learns that Lee has a contact with the New York Daily Worker from info received from the NYC FBI field Office. Hosty asks for the LHO case to be reopened. Hosty says he waited 45 days as a "cooling off period," because of what he thought were their marital difficulties which led to them being evicted from their previous apartment on Elsbeth street. So, in May he wants to check up on them. By then they were out of the Neely St address and left no forwarding address. Hosty's requests to reopen the LHO case on March 25th was accepted in late March, 1963. On June 17th, Hosty learns that LHO is now in New Orleans. Hosty corresponds with the New Orleans FBI field office during the summer of 1963. Hosty requested New Orleans to verify LHO was there. They do and inform Hosty. In August the New Orleans FBI field office takes control of the Oswald case, since the Oswald's are living in New Orleans they now get control of the Oswald file. New Orleans is now considered the "office of origin," to use FBI parlance since the subjects under investigation now live there. Any other FBI field office assisting in such a case would be called an auxiliary office. So, Hosty does not have jurisdiction, control, or any authority over the Oswald case as we head into the Fall of 1963. Hosty doesn't even learn about Oswald handing out leaflets on the streets of New Orleans until 6 to 7 weeks after the fact. There was no "Fair Play For Cuba Committee" in Dallas so Hosty wasn't concerned about an old event that happened in New Orleans. On October 3rd, New Orleans advises Hosty that the Oswald have left. Dallas now becomes the office of origin and the case is reopened for Hosty. All the New Orleans people know is that Marina left with a woman in a station wagon with Texas license plates, and the female driver could speak Russian. Lee had disappeared. The New Orleans FBI people did not know the name Ruth Paine, nor did Hosty. Hosty checks to see if the Oswalds have returned to the Ft. Worth or Dallas area. On October 25th Hosty learns that Lee had been in contact with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City. On October 29th the New Orleans FBI field office tells Hosty that there is a change of address postal card to 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Texas. Also on the 29th, Hosty interviews a neighbor living at 2519 West Fifth Street to find out who's at 2515 West Fifth Street and learns the name Ruth Paine. On Oct 31st Hosty does a credit check on the Paines. And does some further investigation on the Paines. Hosty is led to believe that Lee had abandoned Marina and the kids. On Nov 1st Hosty interviews Ruth Paine who tells him she thinks Lee is living somewhere in the Oak Cliff section, but she doesn't know where. She tells him Lee worked at the Texas School Book Depository at 411 Elm Street.

So, it wasn't via some mysterious note. So, there is no missing exhibit number. Hosty wrote FBI reports. He should have, he was an FBI agent. It was part of his job to write reports.

You are mistaken in the belief that Hosty discovered where Oswald worked by some "note." You're conflating the note Oswald allegedly left for Hosty, which people did not know about until the 1970's. This note was written by Oswald to Hosty to get Hosty to stop bothering Marina.

Hosty is not really questioned by John J. McCloy, but primarily by a Mr. Stern, a counsellor for the Warren Commission.

On Monday Nov 4th, Hosty calls the TSBD and verifies LHO works there. Also, on Nov 4th Hosty requests that Dallas now becomes the "office of origin," as he had now proof that the Oswalds were in Dallas. On Nov 5th Hosty tries to learn where Lee is living. He goes to Ruth Paine's house. She doesn't know the exact address.

During Hosty's testimony he does refer to the fact that once information is written down into formal FBI reports the notes are routinely destroyed. This seems akin to a newspaperman's notes not being kept after he writes up a story and it is then published in the newspaper. There's nothing sinister there. But, he does say he has notes from Nov. 1963 when questioned by McCloy.

Hosty did know Lee Oswald worked at the TSBD but he was not aware of the motorcade route or that the presidential limo would pass by the TSBD. (4H460) Hosty further commented that there was no contact between the FBI and the Secret Service about the motorcade route before the assassination. However, on the 21st Hosty gave them some information about the "Wanted for Treason" poster, some guy in Denton who said something about JFK, and the possibility of some picketing.

So, Hosty never did confirm where Lee Oswald was living prior to the assassination.

What other notes are you talking about that went to Helms?

This is totally ass backwards - "It seems to be a certainty that people in Washington knew where Oswald was working and if they were planning an assassination of the President that would involve Oswald it would have to occur in Dealy Plaza. Controlling the landing time of Air Force One would be an integral part in the accomplishment of their goal."

Setting up the patsy was an integral part of the plot. Of course you need to have him near the shooting. The landing of Air Force One has nothing to do with anything other than getting JFK to Dallas and starting a motorcade. Read Jerry Bruno's book. If you had, which you obviously haven't, you'd know that Gov. John Connally promised Bruno that Texas Christian University was going to give JFK an honorary degree only to have Connally yank that idea away at the last moment, which necessitated the need for a Dallas motorcade. Getting bags and people onto Air Force One after the Ft. Worth motorcade and the flight over to Dallas would eat up the hole in the schedule now that JFK was not going to have a luncheon affair at TCU.

And again you stick to your ridiculous theory, "After speaking in Fort Worth on the morning of the assassination Kennedy, I believe, returned to his hotel and had a period of down time until the planned departure of AF1. Air Force One had a rather large window of time that could have been used to reach Dallas and Kennedy could have been driven the short distance to Dallas in the time that was available but the reality is Kennedy's assassination could only have occured the way it did based upon the landing time of Air Force One at Love Field." - What total BS.

Down time??? There was a motorcade in Ft. Worth! There was no "down time." After the breakfast with the Ft. Worth Chamber of Commerce, hastily arranged by Bruno when the TCU plan fell through, thanks to Connally's mischief, JFK and Co. had a motorcade to Carswell AFB. They took a scenic route to avoid where the TFX fighter plane was being built. JFK also stopped here at various points to shake hands and greet various people, like schoolchildren as he drove by. JFK was in a white convertible. Jackie sat between JFK and Connally. They then flew to Dallas.

You're an idiot! Are you related to Robert Morrow in some way?

Kelly, you could learn something from reading Bruno's book too.

Joe Backes

Joe, You are the idiot.

I have read Bruno's book. He wasn't in Dallas at the time.

And there was a Down Time in Fort Worth, you would know about if you read the Fort Worth Advance man's report in Prologue, which I posted here last week.

And Jim Root, don't take Backes' post seriously, as you are on the right track, he's not familiar with your work, and is talking off the top of his head without thinking.

BK

Bill,

You are completely hopeless. Bruno's book details a lot of the Connally shenanigans about the Texas trip. For you to dismiss it claiming he wasn't there in Dallas in November or on the day of the assassination is like dismissing D-Day because Ike didn't hit the beaches. Bruno's account is ESSENTIAL reading. That's why he'd not mentioned in the Warren Commission report's study of the origins of the Texas trip and the Dallas motorcade.

Jim Root is not on the right track. He's off the rails completely.

Joe, I don't dismiss Bruno's account, I too think it essential, but he was taken off the advance of the Texas trip for good reason, he was the best advance man, and would have set up road blocks to the assassins, so instead, they sent a rookie, on his first advance, as he reports in this important article:

The Hours Before Dallas - The Education Forum

If you read everything Jim Root has written, you will see where he is coming from and where he is going, and I think he's on target - as I didn't know Walker and Clifton were classmates at West Point, and Taylor was their instructor, did you?

BK

JFKcountercoup

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To get this back on track, which Joe Backes has successfully sidetracked, Doug Horne has posted a Postscript to his blog entry calling attention to my transcript and most recent research on this topic. (Thanks Doug)

Postscript: Researcher Bill Kelly has prepared and posted atranscript of the "Clifton" version of the Air Force One tapes onhis blogsite, "JFK Countercoup," as well as muchilluminating background information that will better inform anyoneinterested in this subject---information about Curtis LeMay and JFK; ColonelDorman, LeMay's Aide; and "Liberty," the Collins Radio facility whosejob is was to record air-to-ground Presidential communications, beginning in1962. Here is the link to Bill Kelly's Air Force One transcript: http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2012/02/air-force-one-radio-transmission.html

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