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The "CLIFTON" Version of the Air Force One Tapes Yields Important Information


Guest James H. Fetzer

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Seems a bit of a firestorm erupted over my posts....

My main point

" But upon close inspection there was one deciding factor which guided the planning and distance the motorcade would travel....THE TIME ALLOTTED....which was controlled by when Air Force One landed at Love Field. A later arrival time of Air Force One would require a shorter route and an earlier arrival time may have made the route different as well. "

From the testimony of Winston G. Lawson:

Mr. STERN. Turning now to the question of the motorcade route, Mr. Lawson, what can you (tell us about how that was selected?

Mr. LAWSON. On November 8 when Mr. Kellerman was giving me some of the information on the proposed trip to Dallas, all of the advance agents for the respective stops were given the current itinerary as prepared by the White House staff for their stops, and for the Dallas stop there was a 45 minute time lapse from the time the President landed at the airport until the time that he attended the luncheon, and at the time that I left Washington, it had not been decided whether he would attend this luncheon at the Trade Mart where it later was planned to have it, or at the Womens Building on the Fair Grounds. And this figured a great deal in the parade route, the 45 minutes.Mr. STERN. The 45 minute time interval?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Was established for you by the White House?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. And were you specifically instructed to prepare a parade route or was this your reaction to the time lag?

Mr. LAWSON. This is my function. I wasnt specifically asked to, but this would, be the function of the advance agent.

Mr. STEBN. Were you instructed that there would be a motorcade?

Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. And that is what this 45 minutes was for?

Mr. LAWSON. That is correct.

Mr. STERN. How was the actual route determined then once the Trade Mart had been selected as the site for the luncheon?

Mr. LAWSON. Various routes were under consideration. We could have gone from the airport direct to the Trade Mart the way that we should have returned, the 4-mile route returning from the Trade Mart to the airport, or we could have taken a city street-type route all the way downtown and all the way back, or we could have taken a freeway downtown and a freeway back. But the route that was chosen was chosen because it was the consensus of opinion that it was probably the best route under the circumstances. It allowed us 45 minutes to go from the airport to the Trade Mart at the speed that I figured the President would go from past experience with him in advances, and as a regular working agent riding in a followup car. It allowed us to go downtown, which was wanted back in Washington, D.C.It afforded us wide streets most of the way because of the buses that were in the motorcade. It afforded us a chance to have alternative routes if something happened on the motorcade route. It was the type of suburban area a good part of the way where the crowds would be able to be controlled for a great distance and we figured that the largest crowds would be downtown, which they were, and that the wide streets that we would use downtown would be of sufficient width to keep the public out of our way. Prime consideration in a motorcade is to make sure the President isnt stopped unless he plans it himself. You must have room to maneuver, alternative routes to turn off from, room for buses and so forth, and particularly room to keep the public out of

the street.

As you can see in the testimony the time was dictated by the White House and the desire to go downtown was dictated by the White House. You can also see that there were alternative routes that could have been used "if something happpened on the motorcade route."

Change the time allotment and you change up the route....less time less distance more time more distance...exactly 45 minutes (used for the planning) and the motorcade route hits the TSBD just before getting on the freeway to head back to the Trade Mart lucheon.

For some, it seems, any would be assissins would have jumped into action once they learned of the motorcade route that was well publicized and would have been happy to discover that a perfect Patsy was available at the TSBD. For myself I suggest that IF a conspiracy existed it would require enough planing to know where Oswald was working before the actual motorcade route was decided....

Suggested reading is the Hosty Testimony where he alludes to identifing where Oswald was working before the motorcade route was decided upon. I find it higly unusual that an attorney such as John J. McCloy (who solved the Black Tom Case) would not want to follow up on whom in Washington had that information but he neglected to do so. As was proven by Jefferson Morley and John Neuman in there work with Jane Roman, Hosty's first two notes made it to the office of Richard Helms. This is crucial in understanding how the assassination was accomplished and covered up as well....Bury the information of who in Washington knew where Oswald was working prior to the motorcade route being directed past the TSBD.

While you may not wish to follow my theory or accept it in any manner the fact remains that if there were conspiratores in Washington that had the power to assassinate a President and get away with it the TIME ALLOTED for the motorcade route is a crucial element in understanding how the assassination was carried out.

Jim Root

Edited by Jim Root
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Jim...

I am hoping this is not simply a matter of semantics...

The Luncheon was scheduled for 12 noon for VIPs

JFK was to arrive at 12:15 (45 mins from arrival at 11:30 at Love to the Trade Mart)

Anyone with knowledge of JFK's route and a desire to shot him from a window in the the TSBD SHOULD expect JFK to pass by around 12:10 - IF ON TIME

The motorcade left Love at 11:50, 20 mins late...

At this point do you believe there were changes in the route to make back that 20 mins or was the rest of the world going to wait until the POTUS got there? I don't think anything was changed

Oswald - if the Lone Nut - needs to know when JFK is passing his building to be ready to shoot him...

If all he knows is what's been published and announced... JFK would be passing his window at 12:10....

When does the LN need to get his rifle ready to fire in that case? and where is he REALLY at 12:10?

On the other hand, witnesses begin seeing men with rifles and men watching the street/overpass between 12:10 and 12:20 ON THE 6th FLOOR and then recede back into the darkness...

Men in the SW and SE windows

Would they have known he stopped to shake hands and was 20 mins late leaving the airport? but knew they needed to be in position ahead of time?

Jim -

Even if JFK landed an hour late and he or Jackie had a 45 minute "emergency"... people in DP and the Trade Mart would have still turned out on time to see him.

The motorcade would still have left and there still would have been teams in DP ready to fire...

IF you are saying that DC could have aborted the assassination due to this TIME ALLOTMENT being used up... THAT I can see and fully understand since people returning to their offices due to their lunch hour being over COULD HAVE interfered with teams in DP.... yet imo, even that had contingency planning...

Gut feeling is that there was no way he was going to leave Dallas alive... Dick Russell writes about alternate plans along Stemmons and at the Trade Mart... and my guess would be there were others at the airport to try and kill him... but that's purely speculation.

To sum up... I agree that the motorcade timing was crucial to the assassination working.... anytime between 12pm and 1pm though would have been PREFERRED due to the emptying of buildings...

Curious... in Chicago and Tampa... what times where the motorcasdes scheduled for?

btw - it has gotten to the point where anything and everything is worth looking into and researching... there was a time Jupiter had only a few moons... now, with clarity, we know there are over 60...

what is mysterious and incomprehensible NOW will change in time... as illumination is brought to the subject...

Keep shining those lights Jim...

DJ

TradeMArtLunchinvite-stamped.jpg

Edited by David Josephs
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I received the following email from a person who frequents this site and who I respect very much so I will attempt to answer it for all:

"Jim,

[snip, to save space]

Jim Root

Another related question is why they flew AF1 from Carswell to Love Field at all, I mean its only a few miles and it would have been easier to drive from Fort Worth to Dallas, except for the fact they wanted to do a motorcade through downtown Dallas and hit Dealey Plaza.

And thanks for your analysis, Jim, and others.

BK

JFKcountercoup

This is the stupidest crap I have seen on this forum since Lifton defended the Mary Bledsoe story.

Jim, your whole central premise is staggeringly stupid.

[snip]

You're an idiot! Are you related to Robert Morrow in some way?

Kelly, you could learn something from reading Bruno's book too.

Joe Backes

Backes,

You are totally out of line, and also quite misinformed.

FYI: I took a look at your "liars" website, titled "StupidShmuck dot com"

Do you really think you can just list a bunch of people with whom you disagree, label them liars, call them various names, and have any credibility?

Why debate with someone whose response to a contrary position is simply a bunch of name calling?

DSL

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Jim...

I am hoping this is not simply a matter of semantics...

The Luncheon was scheduled for 12 noon for VIPs

JFK was to arrive at 12:15 (45 mins from arrival at 11:30 at Love to the Trade Mart)

Anyone with knowledge of JFK's route and a desire to shot him from a window in the the TSBD SHOULD expect JFK to pass by around 12:10 - IF ON TIME

The motorcade left Love at 11:50, 20 mins late...

At this point do you believe there were changes in the route to make back that 20 mins or was the rest of the world going to wait until the POTUS got there? I don't think anything was changed

Oswald - if the Lone Nut - needs to know when JFK is passing his building to be ready to shoot him...

If all he knows is what's been published and announced... JFK would be passing his window at 12:10....

When does the LN need to get his rifle ready to fire in that case? and where is he REALLY at 12:10?

On the other hand, witnesses begin seeing men with rifles and men watching the street/overpass between 12:10 and 12:20 ON THE 6th FLOOR and then recede back into the darkness...

Men in the SW and SE windows

Would they have known he stopped to shake hands and was 20 mins late leaving the airport? but knew they needed to be in position ahead of time?

Jim -

Even if JFK landed an hour late and he or Jackie had a 45 minute "emergency"... people in DP and the Trade Mart would have still turned out on time to see him.

The motorcade would still have left and there still would have been teams in DP ready to fire...

IF you are saying that DC could have aborted the assassination due to this TIME ALLOTMENT being used up... THAT I can see and fully understand since people returning to their offices due to their lunch hour being over COULD HAVE interfered with teams in DP.... yet imo, even that had contingency planning...

Gut feeling is that there was no way he was going to leave Dallas alive... Dick Russell writes about alternate plans along Stemmons and at the Trade Mart... and my guess would be there were others at the airport to try and kill him... but that's purely speculation.

To sum up... I agree that the motorcade timing was crucial to the assassination working.... anytime between 12pm and 1pm though would have been PREFERRED due to the emptying of buildings...

Curious... in Chicago and Tampa... what times where the motorcasdes scheduled for?

btw - it has gotten to the point where anything and everything is worth looking into and researching... there was a time Jupiter had only a few moons... now, with clarity, we know there are over 60...

what is mysterious and incomprehensible NOW will change in time... as illumination is brought to the subject...

Keep shining those lights Jim...

DJ

TradeMArtLunchinvite-stamped.jpg

David, the Sixth Floor assassins knew the Motorcade was behind scheduled and knew exactly when it was coming because the pilot car,

a half mile a head of the main motorcade stopped under the TSBD windows and told the policeman on the corner when the motorcade was coming.

BK

JFKcountercoup

Edited by William Kelly
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Can you continue with that thought Bill?

The lead car would not have been at the TSBD until AFTER the men on the 6th floor are seen around 12:15...

Would you say 5 minutes ahead of the limo?

And even if the lead car tells a cop... how do the men around DP get the message, other than just seeing the lead car?

I guess if someone was listening to police band they could relay the message that the limo would be late....

What is strange to me is why these men began looking out the window just about when the limo was SUPPOSED to be in front of the TSBD, if they knew how late it was, or even if they were told exactly where it was... why expose themselves 15 minutes before they needed to, when witnesses could be looking at other things than the motorcade? ... other than to see if the lead car had come by yet???

I am still of the opinion that what Oswald did or didn't know about the timing of the motorcade has HUGE implications related to his actions and guilt.

Oswald on the 6th floor at the right time is just not possible given what we know about what he knew.

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Can you continue with that thought Bill?

The lead car would not have been at the TSBD until AFTER the men on the 6th floor are seen around 12:15...

Would you say 5 minutes ahead of the limo?

And even if the lead car tells a cop... how do the men around DP get the message, other than just seeing the lead car?

I guess if someone was listening to police band they could relay the message that the limo would be late....

What is strange to me is why these men began looking out the window just about when the limo was SUPPOSED to be in front of the TSBD, if they knew how late it was, or even if they were told exactly where it was... why expose themselves 15 minutes before they needed to, when witnesses could be looking at other things than the motorcade? ... other than to see if the lead car had come by yet???

I am still of the opinion that what Oswald did or didn't know about the timing of the motorcade has HUGE implications related to his actions and guilt.

Oswald on the 6th floor at the right time is just not possible given what we know about what he knew.

The Sixth floor window is 60 - 70 feet from the corner, 30 yards - within hearing distance if there are no other sounds, and I don't know that there were any.

So when the Pilot car, half mile ahead of the motorcade - says to the cop on the corner, and they pulled over to be close and stopped, and said the motorcade was less than five minutes behind them, they also told the Sixth Floor sniper, who should have been able to hear that. Or at least surmise that the pilot car was not far ahead of the motorcade.

Oswald wasn't on the Sixth Floor at the time.

There was probably radio communications going on as well.

Also, the Sixth Floor sniper, according to witnesses on the street, didn't look down Houston but watched the Grassy Knoll area.

I would like to bring this thread back around to the Clifton Tape, if that is possible.

BK

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Here is the book "The Advance Man an Offbeat Look at What Really Happens in Political Campaigns" by Jerry Bruno and Jeff Greenfield (1971 and 1972):

http://www.amazon.com/Advance-Offbeat-Happens-Political-Campaigns/dp/B000K0GKVS/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1330579777&sr=1-4

FWIW (and by way of background):

I first read The Advance Man, published in 1971, within days of its publication. The chapter on Dallas really blew me away, because it was the first time I had any idea of the extent of the argument about the choice of luncheon site (i.e., as between the Woman’s Building, which was by Fair Park, and the Trade Mart).

Although this was mentioned, almost in passing, in Manchester’s book (1967), the details were not provided. Also, Bruno (and this is hard to believe) was not interviewed by the FBI, and he was not called as a Warren Commission witness. (This failure to call Bruno as a witness was, IMHO, not an accident. How could the WC staff not know who the President’s advance man was?? That whole idea is absurd.)

In 1971, I (and a good friend of mine) managed to get into a reception when Bruno visited Los Angeles. I had a few words with him—alone-but he absolutely refused to speak about it. I have memos on all this, but the essence of what he said was something to the effect, “Yes, you’re a student of this; but I lived through it.”

BRUNO'S "Take" ON THE JFK ASSASSINATION

If you read Advance Man, you will see that –at the time (and, unfortunately, ever since)—Bruno apparently believed that what he apparently viewed as the accidental decision that JFK would speak at one location rather than the other led to JFK’s motorcade passing in front of the location where Oswald was employed; and hence, his much beloved president’s assassination.

January 1977: My Meeting with HSCA Attorney Belford Lawson

In January, 1977, shortly after the inception of the HSCA, I went to Washington and had an extensive multi-hour meeting with HSCA attorney Belford Lawson, who was in charge of the “parade route planning” aspect of the HSCA investigation.

To my considerable surprise, Lawson had never heard of Jerry Bruno (or of his book). Let me repeat that: Lawson, who was in charge of the HSCA trip planning investigation, had never heard of Jerry Bruno, or his book “Advance Man.”

At that meeting, I made quite sure all that changed. I made an emphatic presentation as to who Bruno was, his importance, and the importance of the book he had written.

Lawson then wrote a three-page memo about our meeting (See JFK Record Number 180-10089-10245) in which (as I recall) he mentions my statements about Bruno, and the importance of calling Bruno as a witness. (My meeting had a wider scope. I told Lawson it was very important that the HSCA view the JFK Texas trip –with five cities (and two motorcades in each city, for a total of 10 motorcades)—provided a whole lot of “redundancy” for anyone planning a “motorcade assassination. I can’t pursue the matter in this post, but –certainly in 1977—it seemed like something that had to be pursued.

Lawson was skeptical, but seemed quite interested. Also: by that time, I was well into my research on autopsy falsification, and was working on the manuscript that was completed in April, 1980, and was published in January 1981 as BEST EVIDENCE. I did not share any of that with Bruno—although I did do just that with Blakey, and other members of the staff, the next year. My point is: I had plenty of reasons for believing that if the plot was directed not just “at the President’ but included a plan to falsify the autopsy, then it could have happened in any number of cities, depending on the political climate, whether the local police department could be utilized, etc. As former FBI agent Bill Turner said to me some three decades ago, if the Secret Service was involved, then the Kennedy assassination was “like a floating crap game.”

But back to Bruno, and my lobbying effort(s) to make sure that he was deposed.

August, 1978: BRUNO DEPOSED (and other related depositions)

Bruno was in fact interviewed and deposed (Aug, 1978 as I recall) but none of it was published; and because of the Blakey “50 year lockup”—those vital records did not become available until the JFK Records Act was passed (1992), and then implemented (1993). Not only is the Bruno deposition of critical importance, but in addition, calling Bruno then led to other witnesses being deposed. So there are also collateral documents (from Bruno) plus the deposition of Bill Moyers, Betty Harris, etc.

These research materials are important to anyone studying the assassination, and addressing the subject of how the decision was made to go to Texas, how Dallas was included, how the luncheon site was selected, and how the motorcade was planned.

I have studied all this material extremely carefully, and supplemented that study by a close analysis of all “trip planning stories” that appeared in both Dallas newspapers (and the newspapers of the other Texas cities as well). In other words, these materials cannot be studied out of context of the numerous news articles being published in the days and weeks leading up to November 22, 1963.

SOME LESSONS THAT CAN BE LEARNED (about "trip planning")

This material makes clear there was no “last minute change” in the motorcade route (as has been sometimes alleged). What DID happen is that in early November (about Nov 7 or so) Bruno’s plan to have JFK speak at the Woman’s Building was nixed, and from that point forward, it was—basically—the Trade Mart as the location that the Dallas business leaders (and Connally, too) wanted.

There is much else that can be said. Indeed, a whole book can be written devoted entirely to the subject of (a) why Kennedy went to Texas and (b ) how the luncheon site was selected and (c ) how the motorcade route was selected.

In short: “Trip Planning” could be a Master’s thesis (at least) and even a Ph.D thesis. I know. I’ve been through all this material with a fine tooth comb.

HOW THE HSCA STAFF REPORT (March 1979) TREATS THE EVIDENCE

But now back to 1970:

When the HSCA report was released (July, 1979) I was very disappointed to see that Belford Lawson (who wrote what was published) suddenly became “goody-two-shoes” and took the position that it was all happenstance, and innocent politics. (See HSCA Volume 11, “Politics and Presidential Protection: The Motorcade”—Staff Report of the Select Committee on Assassinations, March 1979 etc.)

Lawson is entitled to his opinion, of course, but what I found really deplorable was that the testimony of Bruno, Moyers, Betty Harris, etc., plus a host of related documents were not published in the HSCA volumes. Instead, because of what I call the “Blakey lockup,” all of that was sequestered for 50 years—and would have remained unavailable, had it not been for Oliver Stone’s movie , JFK, the public outrage that followed, and the subsequent passage of the JFK Records Act.

WHAT THE PUBLIC KNEW AND WHEN THEY KNEW IT

That would be the equivalent of an entire section of the Warren Report being published, but, when it came to the underlying documents, they were not only “not published” (i.e., in the 26 volumes) but unavailable at the National Archives. That’s what HSCA General Counsel Robert Blakey’s policies led to.

I made a big point of this when I testified before the ARRB in September, 1996:

That it was 1971, when I first read Bruno’s book;

That it was January, 1977, when I met with Lawson, at the HSCA offices in Washington, D.C.

That it was August, 1978, when Bruno testified

That it was July, 1979 when I (and everyone else, for that matter) could read “Lawson’s take-away” on what all this meant;

And, finally,

That it was 1993 (1995, as a practical matter) when it was finally possible to see Bruno’s (Aug 1978) testimony.

Setting aside (for the moment) the facts as to how this trip was planned, one must ask:

Is that the way to run an investigation?

Was this proper public policy, for an investigation that the taxpayers paid for, and was supposed to bring us "the truth"?

This is the investigation we (first generation researchers) lobbied for, and--thanks largely to Robert Blakey and his "father knows best" policies--what I have described above is actually happened once that investigation actually took place.

Again may I point out: were it not for Oliver Stone's movie, and the JFK Records Act, we would still not have access to these vital records for another 15 years.

DSL

3/1/12; 8:40 PM PST

Los Angeles, CA

Edited by David Lifton
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Guest Robert Morrow

Here is the book "The Advance Man an Offbeat Look at What Really Happens in Political Campaigns" by Jerry Bruno and Jeff Greenfield (1971 and 1972):

http://www.amazon.com/Advance-Offbeat-Happens-Political-Campaigns/dp/B000K0GKVS/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1330579777&sr=1-4

FWIW (and by way of background):

I first read The Advance Man, published in 1971, within days of its publication. The chapter on Dallas really blew me away, because it was the first time I had any idea of the extent of the argument about the choice of luncheon site (i.e., as between the Woman’s Building, which was by Fair Park, and the Trade Mart).

Although this was mentioned, almost in passing, in Manchester’s book (1967), the details were not provided. Also, Bruno (and this is hard to believe) was not interviewed by the FBI, and he was not called as a Warren Commission witness. (This failure to call Bruno as a witness was, IMHO, not an accident. How could the WC staff not know who the President’s advance man was?? That whole idea is absurd.)

In 1971, I (and a good friend of mine) managed to get into a reception when Bruno visited Los Angeles. I had a few words with him—alone-but he absolutely refused to speak about it. I have memos on all this, but the essence of what he said was something to the effect, “Yes, you’re a student of this; but I lived through it.”

BRUNO'S "Take" ON THE JFK ASSASSINATION

If you read Advance Man, you will see that –at the time (and, unfortunately, ever since)—Bruno apparently believed that what he apparently viewed as the accidental decision that JFK would speak at one location rather than the other led to JFK’s motorcade passing in front of the location where Oswald was employed; and hence, his much beloved president’s assassination.

January 1977: My Meeting with HSCA Attorney Belford Lawson

In January, 1977, shortly after the inception of the HSCA, I went to Washington and had an extensive multi-hour meeting with HSCA attorney Belford Lawson, who was in charge of the “parade route planning” aspect of the HSCA investigation.

To my considerable surprise, Lawson had never heard of Jerry Bruno (or of his book). Let me repeat that: Lawson, who was in charge of the HSCA trip planning investigation, had never heard of Jerry Bruno, or his book “Advance Man.”

At that meeting, I made quite sure all that changed. I made an emphatic presentation as to who Bruno was, his importance, and the importance of the book he had written.

Lawson then wrote a three-page memo about our meeting (See JFK Record Number 180-10089-10245) in which (as I recall) he mentions my statements about Bruno, and the importance of calling Bruno as a witness. (My meeting had a wider scope. I told Lawson it was very important that the HSCA view the JFK Texas trip –with five cities (and two motorcades in each city, for a total of 10 motorcades)—provided a whole lot of “redundancy” for anyone planning a “motorcade assassination. I can’t pursue the matter in this post, but –certainly in 1977—it seemed like something that had to be pursued.

Lawson was skeptical, but seemed quite interested. Also: by that time, I was well into my research on autopsy falsification, and was working on the manuscript that was completed in April, 1980, and was published in January 1981 as BEST EVIDENCE. I did not share any of that with Bruno—although I did do just that with Blakey, and other members of the staff, the next year. My point is: I had plenty of reasons for believing that if the plot was directed not just “at the President’ but included a plan to falsify the autopsy, then it could have happened in any number of cities, depending on the political climate, whether the local police department could be utilized, etc. As former FBI agent Bill Turner said to me some three decades ago, if the Secret Service was involved, then the Kennedy assassination was “like a floating crap game.”

But back to Bruno, and my lobbying effort(s) to make sure that he was deposed.

August, 1978: BRUNO DEPOSED (and other related depositions)

Bruno was in fact interviewed and deposed (Aug, 1978 as I recall) but none of it was published; and because of the Blakey “50 year lockup”—those vital records did not become available until the JFK Records Act was passed (1992), and then implemented (1993). Not only is the Bruno deposition of critical importance, but in addition, calling Bruno then led to other witnesses being deposed. So there are also collateral documents (from Bruno) plus the deposition of Bill Moyers, Betty Harris, etc.

These research materials are important to anyone studying the assassination, and addressing the subject of how the decision was made to go to Texas, how Dallas was included, how the luncheon site was selected, and how the motorcade was planned.

I have studied all this material extremely carefully, and supplemented that study by a close analysis of all “trip planning stories” that appeared in both Dallas newspapers (and the newspapers of the other Texas cities as well). In other words, these materials cannot be studied out of context of the numerous news articles being published in the days and weeks leading up to November 22, 1963.

SOME LESSONS THAT CAN BE LEARNED (about "trip planning")

This material makes clear there was no “last minute change” in the motorcade route (as has been sometimes alleged). What DID happen is that in early November (about Nov 7 or so) Bruno’s plan to have JFK speak at the Woman’s Building was nixed, and from that point forward, it was—basically—the Trade Mart as the location that the Dallas business leaders (and Connally, too) wanted.

There is much else that can be said. Indeed, a whole book can be written devoted entirely to the subject of (a) why Kennedy went to Texas and (b ) how the luncheon site was selected and (c ) how the motorcade route was selected.

In short: “Trip Planning” could be a Master’s thesis (at least) and even a Ph.D thesis. I know. I’ve been through all this material with a fine tooth comb.

HOW THE HSCA STAFF REPORT (March 1979) TREATS THE EVIDENCE

But now back to 1970:

When the HSCA report was released (July, 1979) I was very disappointed to see that Belford Lawson (who wrote what was published) suddenly became “goody-two-shoes” and took the position that it was all happenstance, and innocent politics. (See HSCA Volume 11, “Politics and Presidential Protection: The Motorcade”—Staff Report of the Select Committee on Assassinations, March 1979 etc.)

Lawson is entitled to his opinion, of course, but what I found really deplorable was that the testimony of Bruno, Moyers, Betty Harris, etc., plus a host of related documents were not published in the HSCA volumes. Instead, because of what I call the “Blakey lockup,” all of that was sequestered for 50 years—and would have remained unavailable, had it not been for Oliver Stone’s movie , JFK, the public outrage that followed, and the subsequent passage of the JFK Records Act.

WHAT THE PUBLIC KNEW AND WHEN THEY KNEW IT

That would be the equivalent of an entire section of the Warren Report being published, but, when it came to the underlying documents, they were not only “not published” (i.e., in the 26 volumes) but unavailable at the National Archives. That’s what HSCA General Counsel Robert Blakey’s policies led to.

I made a big point of this when I testified before the ARRB in September, 1996:

That it was 1971, when I first read Bruno’s book;

That it was January, 1977, when I met with Lawson, at the HSCA offices in Washington, D.C.

That it was August, 1978, when Bruno testified

That it was July, 1979 when I (and everyone else, for that matter) could read “Lawson’s take-away” on what all this meant;

And, finally,

That it was 1993 (1995, as a practical matter) when it was finally possible to see Bruno’s (Aug 1978) testimony.

Setting aside (for the moment) the facts as to how this trip was planned, one must ask:

Is that the way to run an investigation?

Was this proper public policy, for an investigation that the taxpayers paid for, and was supposed to bring us "the truth"?

This is the investigation we (first generation researchers) lobbied for, and--thanks largely to Robert Blakey and his "father knows best" policies--what I have described above is actually happened once that investigation actually took place.

Again may I point out: were it not for Oliver Stone's movie, and the JFK Records Act, we would still not have access to these vital records for another 15 years.

DSL

3/1/12; 8:40 PM PST

Los Angeles, CA

Excellent post, David Lifton! It is just another example why you make such a valuable contributor to Education Forum.

Also, Constance Kritzberg, who was a reporter for the Dallas Times-Herald on 11/22/63 told me that the Women's Pavilion was a dated, unattractive location for a Presidential speech. The ceilings were low and the floor was red-stained concrete. The Trade Mart was a much more modern, showy place to host a presidential luncheon.

What I am getting at, is the change of venue may have occurred for purely cosmetic reasons, not necessarily for reasons of facilitating the JFK assassination.

Edited by Robert Morrow
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Here is the book "The Advance Man an Offbeat Look at What Really Happens in Political Campaigns" by Jerry Bruno and Jeff Greenfield (1971 and 1972):

http://www.amazon.com/Advance-Offbeat-Happens-Political-Campaigns/dp/B000K0GKVS/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1330579777&sr=1-4

FWIW (and by way of background):

I first read The Advance Man, published in 1971, within days of its publication. The chapter on Dallas really blew me away, because it was the first time I had any idea of the extent of the argument about the choice of luncheon site (i.e., as between the Woman’s Building, which was by Fair Park, and the Trade Mart).

Although this was mentioned, almost in passing, in Manchester’s book (1967), the details were not provided. Also, Bruno (and this is hard to believe) was not interviewed by the FBI, and he was not called as a Warren Commission witness. (This failure to call Bruno as a witness was, IMHO, not an accident. How could the WC staff not know who the President’s advance man was?? That whole idea is absurd.)

In 1971, I (and a good friend of mine) managed to get into a reception when Bruno visited Los Angeles. I had a few words with him—alone-but he absolutely refused to speak about it. I have memos on all this, but the essence of what he said was something to the effect, “Yes, you’re a student of this; but I lived through it.”

BRUNO'S "Take" ON THE JFK ASSASSINATION

If you read Advance Man, you will see that –at the time (and, unfortunately, ever since)—Bruno apparently believed that what he apparently viewed as the accidental decision that JFK would speak at one location rather than the other led to JFK’s motorcade passing in front of the location where Oswald was employed; and hence, his much beloved president’s assassination.

January 1977: My Meeting with HSCA Attorney Belford Lawson

In January, 1977, shortly after the inception of the HSCA, I went to Washington and had an extensive multi-hour meeting with HSCA attorney Belford Lawson, who was in charge of the “parade route planning” aspect of the HSCA investigation.

To my considerable surprise, Lawson had never heard of Jerry Bruno (or of his book). Let me repeat that: Lawson, who was in charge of the HSCA trip planning investigation, had never heard of Jerry Bruno, or his book “Advance Man.”

At that meeting, I made quite sure all that changed. I made an emphatic presentation as to who Bruno was, his importance, and the importance of the book he had written.

Lawson then wrote a three-page memo about our meeting (See JFK Record Number 180-10089-10245) in which (as I recall) he mentions my statements about Bruno, and the importance of calling Bruno as a witness. (My meeting had a wider scope. I told Lawson it was very important that the HSCA view the JFK Texas trip –with five cities (and two motorcades in each city, for a total of 10 motorcades)—provided a whole lot of “redundancy” for anyone planning a “motorcade assassination. I can’t pursue the matter in this post, but –certainly in 1977—it seemed like something that had to be pursued.

Lawson was skeptical, but seemed quite interested. Also: by that time, I was well into my research on autopsy falsification, and was working on the manuscript that was completed in April, 1980, and was published in January 1981 as BEST EVIDENCE. I did not share any of that with Bruno—although I did do just that with Blakey, and other members of the staff, the next year. My point is: I had plenty of reasons for believing that if the plot was directed not just “at the President’ but included a plan to falsify the autopsy, then it could have happened in any number of cities, depending on the political climate, whether the local police department could be utilized, etc. As former FBI agent Bill Turner said to me some three decades ago, if the Secret Service was involved, then the Kennedy assassination was “like a floating crap game.”

But back to Bruno, and my lobbying effort(s) to make sure that he was deposed.

August, 1978: BRUNO DEPOSED (and other related depositions)

Bruno was in fact interviewed and deposed (Aug, 1978 as I recall) but none of it was published; and because of the Blakey “50 year lockup”—those vital records did not become available until the JFK Records Act was passed (1992), and then implemented (1993). Not only is the Bruno deposition of critical importance, but in addition, calling Bruno then led to other witnesses being deposed. So there are also collateral documents (from Bruno) plus the deposition of Bill Moyers, Betty Harris, etc.

These research materials are important to anyone studying the assassination, and addressing the subject of how the decision was made to go to Texas, how Dallas was included, how the luncheon site was selected, and how the motorcade was planned.

I have studied all this material extremely carefully, and supplemented that study by a close analysis of all “trip planning stories” that appeared in both Dallas newspapers (and the newspapers of the other Texas cities as well). In other words, these materials cannot be studied out of context of the numerous news articles being published in the days and weeks leading up to November 22, 1963.

SOME LESSONS THAT CAN BE LEARNED (about "trip planning")

This material makes clear there was no “last minute change” in the motorcade route (as has been sometimes alleged). What DID happen is that in early November (about Nov 7 or so) Bruno’s plan to have JFK speak at the Woman’s Building was nixed, and from that point forward, it was—basically—the Trade Mart as the location that the Dallas business leaders (and Connally, too) wanted.

There is much else that can be said. Indeed, a whole book can be written devoted entirely to the subject of (a) why Kennedy went to Texas and (b ) how the luncheon site was selected and (c ) how the motorcade route was selected.

In short: “Trip Planning” could be a Master’s thesis (at least) and even a Ph.D thesis. I know. I’ve been through all this material with a fine tooth comb.

HOW THE HSCA STAFF REPORT (March 1979) TREATS THE EVIDENCE

But now back to 1970:

When the HSCA report was released (July, 1979) I was very disappointed to see that Belford Lawson (who wrote what was published) suddenly became “goody-two-shoes” and took the position that it was all happenstance, and innocent politics. (See HSCA Volume 11, “Politics and Presidential Protection: The Motorcade”—Staff Report of the Select Committee on Assassinations, March 1979 etc.)

Lawson is entitled to his opinion, of course, but what I found really deplorable was that the testimony of Bruno, Moyers, Betty Harris, etc., plus a host of related documents were not published in the HSCA volumes. Instead, because of what I call the “Blakey lockup,” all of that was sequestered for 50 years—and would have remained unavailable, had it not been for Oliver Stone’s movie , JFK, the public outrage that followed, and the subsequent passage of the JFK Records Act.

WHAT THE PUBLIC KNEW AND WHEN THEY KNEW IT

That would be the equivalent of an entire section of the Warren Report being published, but, when it came to the underlying documents, they were not only “not published” (i.e., in the 26 volumes) but unavailable at the National Archives. That’s what HSCA General Counsel Robert Blakey’s policies led to.

I made a big point of this when I testified before the ARRB in September, 1996:

That it was 1971, when I first read Bruno’s book;

That it was January, 1977, when I met with Lawson, at the HSCA offices in Washington, D.C.

That it was August, 1978, when Bruno testified

That it was July, 1979 when I (and everyone else, for that matter) could read “Lawson’s take-away” on what all this meant;

And, finally,

That it was 1993 (1995, as a practical matter) when it was finally possible to see Bruno’s (Aug 1978) testimony.

Setting aside (for the moment) the facts as to how this trip was planned, one must ask:

Is that the way to run an investigation?

Was this proper public policy, for an investigation that the taxpayers paid for, and was supposed to bring us "the truth"?

This is the investigation we (first generation researchers) lobbied for, and--thanks largely to Robert Blakey and his "father knows best" policies--what I have described above is actually happened once that investigation actually took place.

Again may I point out: were it not for Oliver Stone's movie, and the JFK Records Act, we would still not have access to these vital records for another 15 years.

DSL

3/1/12; 8:40 PM PST

Los Angeles, CA

Excellent post, David Lifton! It is just another example why you make such a valuable contributor to Education Forum.

Also, Constance Kritzberg, who was a reporter for the Dallas Times-Herald on 11/22/63 told me that the Women's Pavilion was a dated, unattractive location for a Presidential speech. The ceilings were low and the floor was red-stained concrete. The Trade Mart was a much more modern, showy place to host a presidential luncheon.

What I am getting at, is the change of venue may have occurred for purely cosmetic reasons, not necessarily for reasons of facilitating the JFK assassination.

Thanks much for your compliments, Robert. Let's now dialogue a bit about the matter you raised, inspired by Connie Kritz's observations.

The change of venue “for cosmetic reasons” does not explain the facts in this case, if one takes into account chronology.

The fact that the Woman’s building was “unattractive”—physically—is really beside the point. The issue is not whether there “might be” an innocent reason for choosing the Dallas Trade Mart. Rather the issue is whether, from the outset, this was a “designer shooting”—with the shooting planned in advance to take place on the north side of Dealey Plaza—and whether Jerry Bruno (in early November) threw a monkey wrench into some well laid plans by choosing the Woman’s Building over the Dallas Trade Mart.

The underlying fact is that the luncheon site decision determined the terminus of the motorcade—hence, it was a major factor in the geometry of the shooting.

To evaluate the situation properly, one has to look at the chronology. The chronology suggests—but by itself does not prove—that there was such a plan. All the events, of course, and when considered individually, look “normal” and can be viewed as merely “political.” At issue is whether there was an assassination plan functioning behind the “politics"--and if so, who was witting, and who was not; who was operating in the service of some hidden agenda, and who were the unwitting dupes.

CHRONOLOGY

JFK’s final decision that yes, he would visit Texas, and that (yes) Dallas would be included, was made on September 25, 1963. It appeared in all the newspapers on the morning of September 26, 1963.

Oswald’s Mexico City trip occurred between September 27 and October 3, 1963. This trip cannot be ignored if there was a plot to murder the president. It is an essential part of the background being created prior to the murder, to “internationalize” Oswald (or “Cubanize” Oswald, to use a term originated by Peter Dale Scott, I believe) prior to JFK’s murder.

Oswald began work at the TSBD on October 16, 1963.

This job cannot be accidental if there was a plot. Oswald was the only defector with rifle training in a nation of 140 million people.

In other words, the crossed-paths situation cannot be an accident—if there was a plot.

Bruno expressed his preference for the Woman's Building in early November. An argument ensued, he was finally overruled, and the Trade Mart Decision was made on November 14. That determined the terminus of the motorcade, and practically insured that the motorcade would traverse Dealey Plaza on the north side (as it did) en route to Stemmons Freeway.

CHRONOLOGY.. .NOW WITH THE "GEOMETRY" ADDED

Once these factors are taken into account, it becomes clear the magnitude of the problem caused by Jerry Bruno’s arriving in Texas in late October, and insisting, in early November, that the President speak at the Woman’s Building, in a different area of town.

That would have changed the geometry of the shooting completely. To understand that, you need to consult maps of Dallas, from which it becomes evident that, if the Woman's Building was the motorcade terminus, you could still pass through Dealey Plaza, but you'd have to travel on Main Street in the opposite direction, en route to a luncheon at the Woman's Building. So: First would come Dealey Plaza, and then a "Main Street" motorcade, but going west-to-east, not east to west, as the motorcade traveled on November 22, 1963.

But this then would change everything as to how the shooting would work on Dealey Plaza.

Think about it. If the plan was to have a “motorcade assassination” on the north side of Dealey Plaza (i.e., "in front of the building where LHO was employed)—after a “downtown ‘noontime’ motorcade”—then Bruno’s preference for the Woman’s Building (in a different area of town) would have resulted in a downtown motorcade that traveled on Main Street but in the opposite direction (i.e., west-to-east, rather than east-to-west). Specifically, it would have resulted in a motorcade entering the downtown area from Dealey Plaza rather traversing Dealey Plaza after a downtown motorcade. To repeat: Bruno’s choice of a motorcade terminus (the Woman’s Building) would have led to the motorcade traversing Dealey Plaza on the south side (on Commerce Street) and then going west-to-east on Main Street.

To repeat: the choice of the Woman’s Building would mean that the motorcade would enter Dealey Plaza at the Triple Underpass area (en route to Main Street). That would mean traversing Dealey Plaza west-to-east on the south side (i.e., via Commerce Street), rather than east-to-west on the north side (on Elm, as it did on November 22, thus passing in front of the TSBD).

I’m not saying that, if Bruno had gotten his way, one could not tweak Oswald’s job location, or position, to make a (south side of) Dealey Plaza shooting work—i.e., if the motorcade traversed Dealey Plaza on the south side, rather than the north side. I’m simply saying it would unnecessarily complicate matters.

THE EFFECT OF BRUNO'S INTERFERENCE

So the solution to Bruno’s unexpected interference was to lobby hard, using genuine political reasons, for the superiority of the Dallas Trade Mart as the luncheon site (and the motorcade terminus) so that the motorcade would pass through downtown Dallas east-to-west (on Main Street) and then traverse Dealey Plaza east-to-west, and on the north side (as it did).

If I’m correct, overturning Bruno’s preference became an important matter, but of course those involved had to marshal legitimate political reasons for doing so. (And that’s what appears to have happened in this case: it was argued (and legitimately so) that the Trade Mart was prettier, was a superior luncheon site, etc.)

WAS IT REALLY COINCIDENCE?

Consider now what you have written: : “What I am getting at, is the change of venue may have occurred for purely cosmetic reasons, not necessarily for reasons of facilitating the JFK assassination,” I think that is entirely incorrect, because that is tantamount to saying that the geometry of the Kennedy assassination occurred by coincidence.

In view of the special person Oswald was, the artificiality of the "crossed-paths situation," the evidence that this was a “designer shooting”, and the aforementioned chronology, I find that to be highly implausible. In other words, if this was really a "coup d'etat," Robert--a political murder disguised as a "quirk of fate"--then these crucial issues were almost certainly not left to chance, "coincidence" does not explain the result, and such a fundamental decision about the luncheon site (over the objections of President Kennedy's own advance man) was not made for "cosmetic reasons."

DSL

3/3/12; 7 pm PST

Los Angeles, California

Edited by David Lifton
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I received the following email from a person who frequents this site and who I respect very much so I will attempt to answer it for all:

"Jim,

[snip, to save space]

Jim Root

Another related question is why they flew AF1 from Carswell to Love Field at all, I mean its only a few miles and it would have been easier to drive from Fort Worth to Dallas, except for the fact they wanted to do a motorcade through downtown Dallas and hit Dealey Plaza.

And thanks for your analysis, Jim, and others.

BK

JFKcountercoup

This is the stupidest crap I have seen on this forum since Lifton defended the Mary Bledsoe story.

Jim, your whole central premise is staggeringly stupid.

[snip]

You're an idiot! Are you related to Robert Morrow in some way?

Kelly, you could learn something from reading Bruno's book too.

Joe Backes

Backes,

You are totally out of line, and also quite misinformed.

FYI: I took a look at your "liars" website, titled "StupidShmuck dot com"

Do you really think you can just list a bunch of people with whom you disagree, label them liars, call them various names, and have any credibility?

Why debate with someone whose response to a contrary position is simply a bunch of name calling?

DSL

LIFTON,

You don't scare me.

Apparently, there are no mirrors in your house. You have the gall to criticize others for name calling after your performance on this forum? What they hell do you call what you did to Lee Farley?

Out of line and misinformed, yes, that describes YOU on the topic of Mary Bledsoe.

I believe in standing up for the truth. I defend solid research. And I criticize the dissemblers of false information. I have no patience for fools. And I don't believe a forum that allows anyone with any theory, or just a "No, it isn't." approach to post helps the cause of EDUCATION. The sheer number of posts doesn't make one a respected researcher in my book.

I also believe in guiding people away from making mistakes. Jim Root has not done his homework on this at all. He has the screwiest theory I have ever heard. He has no concept of what he's talking about. In his mind Air Force One's landing makes all the difference as to whether JFK gets killed or not. This is stupid. And as we learned in the Bush years you can't fix stupid. He picks and chooses selected bits here and there from the Warren Commission without doling any additional reading outside of the WC to see why what the WC tells him is not true. He doesn't get the notion that "the victors write the history." He doesn't bother to acquire and read from the sources excluded from the WC's narrative. YOU used to be someone who championed the importance of Jerry Bruno. What happened, are you so eager to have a dig at me you forgot him?

George Michael Evica did the definitive work on this topic in a workshop at the 1993 A.S.K. conference. He's no longer with us to defend himself and his work. So, I'll do it. I've added to that work in my presentations on this topic. Unfortunately, only an audio tape exists of Evica's presentation. You have to listen carefully to it. Evica often did not cite where he's getting the information he uses in his presentation ( maybe he did if there was a paper handout, I don't know as I was at another event happening at the same time and listened to this afterwards), but if you're a good researcher you can figure it out and hunt down those books and sources.

I will defend this work from all corners and guide people to it. Hopefully, it's still available.

Joe Backes

Edited by Joseph Backes
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Mr. Backes

I have studied the assassination for nearly 20 years and have collected a great deal of information over that period of time. That aside and not wishing to be confrontaitonal I would appreciate an answer to a few simple questions.

If the planners of the motorcade were given 45 minutes for the trip which, at its greatest distance from Love Field passed the TSBD, might the trip have followed a different route if they had had only 30 minutes? Or 40 minutes?

The flight plans of AF1 take precident over any other planes in US airspace. AF1 was routed to land at a precise time which dictated the 45 minutes aloted for the motorcade, agree or disagree?

Do you believe the testimony of Mr Lawson was truthful?

Jim Root

Edited by Jim Root
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Subject: AF1 Radio Tapes & Collins Radio

Links to Doug Horne's blog post and my recent blog posts on the AF1 radio transmission tapes and the Collins Radio Connections

http://insidethearrb.livejournal.com/

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/

Doesn't anybody want to talk about the recently discovered Clifton copy of the radio tapes?

Here's what Doug Horne has to say about some of it:

Air Force One Radio Transcripts - Reopen KENNEDY CASE!

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