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I think we've been over this before, but, since Robert Morrow and Martin Hay have revived this topic on another thread, I thought it might be worth reviving this question as well.

Now, I know you're a lawyer and understandably reluctant to talk trash about your former clients, but I hope you can take off your lawyer hat, if for only just a moment, and help those of us trying to figure out such things garner some insight into Estes' character.

And so, let me ask you a few lawyer-like questions...

1. If YOU were researching the Kennedy assassination, from scratch, and had never met Estes, how much credibility would you afford Estes' accusations?

2. How does your having met Estes influence your assessment?

3. Was there anything, to your knowledge, that would support Estes' accusations?

4. Did he have, for example, a signed and notarized document, dating back to before you met him, in which he recorded his allegations?

5. Had he made a recording, and placed it with someone for safe-keeping?

6. Had he confided in a friend, who would testify in support of his allegations?

7. Were you aware of anything that might convince someone of the truth of his allegations about LBJ, beyond his say-so, years after LBJ's death?

Thank you.

P.S. I never went to law school. How did I do?

Edited by Pat Speer
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I think we've been over this before, but, since Robert Morrow and Martin Hay have revived this topic on another thread, I thought it might be worth reviving this question as well.

Now, I know you're a lawyer and understandably reluctant to talk trash about your former clients, but I hope you can take off your lawyer hat, if for only just a moment, and help those of us trying to figure out such things garner some insight into Estes' character.

And so, let me ask you a few lawyer-like questions...

1. If YOU were researching the Kennedy assassination, from scratch, and had never met Estes, how much credibility would you afford Estes' accusations?

2. How does your having met Estes influence your assessment?

3. Was there anything, to your knowledge, that would support Estes' accusations?

4. Did he have, for example, a signed and notarized document, dating back to before you met him, in which he recorded his allegations?

5. Had he made a recording, and placed it with someone for safe-keeping?

6. Had he confided in a friend, who would testify in support of his allegations?

7. Were you aware of anything that might convince someone of the truth of his allegations about LBJ, beyond his say-so, years after LBJ's death?

Thank you.

P.S. I never went to law school. How did I do?

Pat:

You should have gone to law school. You missed your natural calling. Your interrogation of a witness at trial would have been a sight to behold. That plus your unwavering intent to stick with the facts (as shown in your forum postings and comments) would have always carried the day -- assuming you had an honest judge and none of the jurors had been bribed.

In answer to your questions:

1) I give great credibility to the accusations made by Billie Sol Estes in the relevant 1984 letter to the U.S. Department of Justice. There were contemporaneous newspaper reports of the untimely deaths of almost all of the persons listed by him in the letter. In addition, Texan historian J. Evetts Haley in his 1964 book, A Texan Looks at Lyndon, wrote in great detail about Estes and the victims.

2) I don’t think my having met Estes, which originally occurred in 1983 when I was asked to do so by Shearn Moody, Jr., of the Moody Foundation in connection with a grant request from Estes, influenced my assessment of the accusations one way or the other. This is because there already existed in the public record much evidence to support Estes’ accusations.

3) U.S. Marshal Clint Peoples, who had closely followed Estes’ activities for 25 years, told me on several occasions that his research supported Estes’ accusations. His exact words to me: “It is about time that the truth comes out.” It was Marshal Peoples who arranged for Estes to testify in 1984 before the Robertson County grand jury. Press reports at the time disclosed that Estes reiterated his accusations in his grand jury testimony.

4) There was no signed and notarized document of Estes dating before I met him that recorded his accusations. He had not determined to tell what he knew until while still in federal prison at Big Spring, Texas, he contacted Shearn Moody, Jr. in 1983 and indicated he was prepared to relate for the public record what he knew.

5) Estes has maintained that he has taped recordings of conversations of the conspirators that support his accusations. I have not heard the recordings and have no knowledge of their whereabouts,

6) He confided in U.S. Marshal Peoples of what he knew. Peoples is now deceased. However, the transcript of Estes’ testimony before the Robertson County grand jury in 1984, if it were unsealed, would clarify much.

7) At the time of JFK assassination, LBJ was facing criminal proceedings stemming from his involvement in the Billie Sol Estes and the Bobby Baker scandals that were reaching the explosive stage. LBJ’s involvement in these two scandals certainly adds credence to what Estes has alleged.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKestes.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billie_Sol_Estes

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Pat: This is not directly related to your questions. At the request of Robert Morrow, I sent him today by email two conversations that I had on the general subject of LBJ's involvement in the JFK assassination. These conversations are reproduced below:

When Barr McClellan's book, LBJ Killed JFK, was about to be released in 2003, both Barr and I independently received about a half dozen phone calls from someone who was vitally intent in stopping its publication or limiting its impact. The person who called always remained unidentified and the phone number from which the call was made was later found to be non-existent. In one of the phone conversations with me, the person in response to my bringing up Robert Caro hopefully covering LBJ's involvement in JFK assassination, told me that "We are not worried about Caro. He is on board." I was disappointed to hear this because I took it to mean that Caro may downplay LBJ's involvement in his forthcoming final volumes on the biography of LBJ.

In 1985 or 1986, Robert Caro gave an address at the University of Houston on the subject of urban planning. I attended his speech accompanied by my father. After the speech I approached Caro, who was answering questions posed by about half a dozen attendees gathered around him. I decided to pose my own question to him, asking, "Do you plan to cover the role of Mac Wallace in your biography of LBJ?" Caro looked startled and shaken and grabbed me by the lapels of my business suit, saying "Who are you? How can I get in touch with you?" I gave him my business card, which he examined on the spot and pocketed it. However, I never heard anything more from him.

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I think we've been over this before, but, since Robert Morrow and Martin Hay have revived this topic on another thread, I thought it might be worth reviving this question as well.

Now, I know you're a lawyer and understandably reluctant to talk trash about your former clients, but I hope you can take off your lawyer hat, if for only just a moment, and help those of us trying to figure out such things garner some insight into Estes' character.

And so, let me ask you a few lawyer-like questions...

1. If YOU were researching the Kennedy assassination, from scratch, and had never met Estes, how much credibility would you afford Estes' accusations?

2. How does your having met Estes influence your assessment?

3. Was there anything, to your knowledge, that would support Estes' accusations?

4. Did he have, for example, a signed and notarized document, dating back to before you met him, in which he recorded his allegations?

5. Had he made a recording, and placed it with someone for safe-keeping?

6. Had he confided in a friend, who would testify in support of his allegations?

7. Were you aware of anything that might convince someone of the truth of his allegations about LBJ, beyond his say-so, years after LBJ's death?

Thank you.

P.S. I never went to law school. How did I do?

Pat:

You should have gone to law school. You missed your natural calling. Your interrogation of a witness at trial would have been a sight to behold. That plus your unwavering intent to stick with the facts (as shown in your forum postings and comments) would have always carried the day -- assuming you had an honest judge and none of the jurors had been bribed.

In answer to your questions:

1) I give great credibility to the accusations made by Billie Sol Estes in the relevant 1984 letter to the U.S. Department of Justice. There were contemporaneous newspaper reports of the untimely deaths of almost all of the persons listed by him in the letter. In addition, Texan historian J. Evetts Haley in his 1964 book, A Texan Looks at Lyndon, wrote in great detail about Estes and the victims.

2) I don’t think my having met Estes, which originally occurred in 1983 when I was asked to do so by Shearn Moody, Jr., of the Moody Foundation in connection with a grant request from Estes, influenced my assessment of the accusations one way or the other. This is because there already existed in the public record much evidence to support Estes’ accusations.

3) U.S. Marshal Clint Peoples, who had closely followed Estes’ activities for 25 years, told me on several occasions that his research supported Estes’ accusations. His exact words to me: “It is about time that the truth comes out.” It was Marshal Peoples who arranged for Estes to testify in 1984 before the Robertson County grand jury. Press reports at the time disclosed that Estes reiterated his accusations in his grand jury testimony.

4) There was no signed and notarized document of Estes dating before I met him that recorded his accusations. He had not determined to tell what he knew until while still in federal prison at Big Spring, Texas, he contacted Shearn Moody, Jr. in 1983 and indicated he was prepared to relate for the public record what he knew.

5) Estes has maintained that he has taped recordings of conversations of the conspirators that support his accusations. I have not heard the recordings and have no knowledge of their whereabouts,

6) He confided in U.S. Marshal Peoples of what he knew. Peoples is now deceased. However, the transcript of Estes’ testimony before the Robertson County grand jury in 1984, if it were unsealed, would clarify much.

7) At the time of JFK assassination, LBJ was facing criminal proceedings stemming from his involvement in the Billie Sol Estes and the Bobby Baker scandals that were reaching the explosive stage. LBJ’s involvement in these two scandals certainly adds credence to what Estes has alleged.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKestes.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billie_Sol_Estes

Thanks, Doug. Was Estes' Grand Jury testimony covered by the act creating the ARRB? Is it available from the archives? And, if not, why not?

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After my meeting with the SFRG in Miami last week, I was told that they are now up to (149) one hundred and forty nine shooters and counting. With a number like that, it would have been nearly impossible to miss JFK. So I'm guessing at this point there had to be more then three shots. :ice

Edited by Scott Kaiser
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I think we've been over this before, but, since Robert Morrow and Martin Hay have revived this topic on another thread, I thought it might be worth reviving this question as well.

Now, I know you're a lawyer and understandably reluctant to talk trash about your former clients, but I hope you can take off your lawyer hat, if for only just a moment, and help those of us trying to figure out such things garner some insight into Estes' character.

And so, let me ask you a few lawyer-like questions...

1. If YOU were researching the Kennedy assassination, from scratch, and had never met Estes, how much credibility would you afford Estes' accusations?

2. How does your having met Estes influence your assessment?

3. Was there anything, to your knowledge, that would support Estes' accusations?

4. Did he have, for example, a signed and notarized document, dating back to before you met him, in which he recorded his allegations?

5. Had he made a recording, and placed it with someone for safe-keeping?

6. Had he confided in a friend, who would testify in support of his allegations?

7. Were you aware of anything that might convince someone of the truth of his allegations about LBJ, beyond his say-so, years after LBJ's death?

Thank you.

P.S. I never went to law school. How did I do?

Pat:

You should have gone to law school. You missed your natural calling. Your interrogation of a witness at trial would have been a sight to behold. That plus your unwavering intent to stick with the facts (as shown in your forum postings and comments) would have always carried the day -- assuming you had an honest judge and none of the jurors had been bribed.

In answer to your questions:

1) I give great credibility to the accusations made by Billie Sol Estes in the relevant 1984 letter to the U.S. Department of Justice. There were contemporaneous newspaper reports of the untimely deaths of almost all of the persons listed by him in the letter. In addition, Texan historian J. Evetts Haley in his 1964 book, A Texan Looks at Lyndon, wrote in great detail about Estes and the victims.

2) I don’t think my having met Estes, which originally occurred in 1983 when I was asked to do so by Shearn Moody, Jr., of the Moody Foundation in connection with a grant request from Estes, influenced my assessment of the accusations one way or the other. This is because there already existed in the public record much evidence to support Estes’ accusations.

3) U.S. Marshal Clint Peoples, who had closely followed Estes’ activities for 25 years, told me on several occasions that his research supported Estes’ accusations. His exact words to me: “It is about time that the truth comes out.” It was Marshal Peoples who arranged for Estes to testify in 1984 before the Robertson County grand jury. Press reports at the time disclosed that Estes reiterated his accusations in his grand jury testimony.

4) There was no signed and notarized document of Estes dating before I met him that recorded his accusations. He had not determined to tell what he knew until while still in federal prison at Big Spring, Texas, he contacted Shearn Moody, Jr. in 1983 and indicated he was prepared to relate for the public record what he knew.

5) Estes has maintained that he has taped recordings of conversations of the conspirators that support his accusations. I have not heard the recordings and have no knowledge of their whereabouts,

6) He confided in U.S. Marshal Peoples of what he knew. Peoples is now deceased. However, the transcript of Estes’ testimony before the Robertson County grand jury in 1984, if it were unsealed, would clarify much.

7) At the time of JFK assassination, LBJ was facing criminal proceedings stemming from his involvement in the Billie Sol Estes and the Bobby Baker scandals that were reaching the explosive stage. LBJ’s involvement in these two scandals certainly adds credence to what Estes has alleged.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKestes.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billie_Sol_Estes

Thanks, Doug. Was Estes' Grand Jury testimony covered by the act creating the ARRB? Is it available from the archives? And, if not, why not?

I am not conversant enough with the act creating the ARRB to answer these questions. Hopefully, another forum member can do so.

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Guest Robert Morrow

5) Estes has maintained that he has taped recordings of conversations of the conspirators that support his accusations. I have not heard the recordings and have no knowledge of their whereabouts,

Not trying to be antagonistic but if those recordings ever materialize I'll eat my own underwear.

I think that Billie Sol Estes is lying about those tape recordings.

I also think he is one of the key witnesses to truth in the JFK assassination.

Wouldn't life be so simple if people either told the truth 100% of the time or lied 100% of the time?

I think that Estes lied about those phantom tapes because he was scared and was trying to think of a way to protect himself. Este came forward and told the truth in the 1980's at the urgings of Texas Ranger Clint Peoples, who was a close observer of the LBJ corruption machine over the decades.

Edited by Robert Morrow
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Guest Robert Morrow

Pat Speer:

Billie Sol Estes grand jury testimony should be a Texas state court matter. It is probably not covered by the ARRB which applies to the federal government and its records.

I would love to see his grand jury testimony, but often those things are sealed.

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Pat Speer:

Billie Sol Estes grand jury testimony should be a Texas state court matter. It is probably not covered by the ARRB which applies to the federal government and its records.

I would love to see his grand jury testimony, but often those things are sealed.

I just found this, maybe there is something there to poke around on and maybe not, who knows?

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/381/532

OR This?

http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/646/646.F2d.181.79-5477.79-5444.html

Edited by Scott Kaiser
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Guest Robert Morrow

Pat Speer:

Billie Sol Estes grand jury testimony should be a Texas state court matter. It is probably not covered by the ARRB which applies to the federal government and its records.

I would love to see his grand jury testimony, but often those things are sealed.

I just found this, maybe there is something there to poke around on and maybe not, who knows?

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/381/532

John Cofer was the nominal lawyer for Estes, but he was REALLY representing the interests of Lyndon Johnson, particularly with making sure that Estes remained silent. Waggoner Carr and Leon Jaworski played big roles in the cover up of the JFK assassination.

Jaworski also made sure that GHW Bush's name did not come up in Watergate.

Jaworski was ALSO one of those urging Lyndon Johnson to form a Warren Commission because as he told LBJ, a lot of folks think you did this and a Texas Court of Inquiry will not be credible politically.

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Pat Speer:

Billie Sol Estes grand jury testimony should be a Texas state court matter. It is probably not covered by the ARRB which applies to the federal government and its records.

I would love to see his grand jury testimony, but often those things are sealed.

I just found this, maybe there is something there to poke around on and maybe not, who knows?

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/381/532

John Cofer was the nominal lawyer for Estes, but he was REALLY representing the interests of Lyndon Johnson, particularly with making sure that Estes remained silent. Waggoner Carr and Leon Jaworski played big roles in the cover up of the JFK assassination.

Jaworski also made sure that GHW Bush's name did not come up in Watergate.

Jaworski was ALSO one of those urging Lyndon Johnson to form a Warren Commission because as he told LBJ, a lot of folks think you did this and a Texas Court of Inquiry will not be credible politically.

This is all so interesting, its like taking a history class all over again!

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest Robert Morrow

This link on Lyndon Johnson might be helpful:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAjohnsonLB.htm

Douglas Caddy, email interview with John Simkin (20th January, 2006 )

John Simkin: I believe in the past you represented Billie Sol Estes. On 9th August, 1984, you wrote to Stephen S. Trott at the U.S. Department of Justice. In the letter you claimed that Billie Sol Estes, Lyndon B. Johnson, Mac Wallace and Cliff Carter had been involved in the murders of Henry Marshall, George Krutilek, Harold Orr, Ike Rogers, Coleman Wade, Josefa Johnson, John Kinser and John F. Kennedy. You added: "Mr. Estes is willing to testify that LBJ ordered these killings, and that he transmitted his orders through Cliff Carter to Mac Wallace, who executed the murders." Did Billie Sol Estes provide you with any evidence that suggested his story was true?

Douglass Caddy: My relationship with Billie Sol Estes began in 1983 when Shearn Moody, a trustee of the Moody Foundation of Galveston, Texas, asked me to visit Billie Sol who was incarcerated in the federal prison at Big Spring, Texas. Billie Sol had telephoned Mr. Moody at the suggestion of a fellow inmate who knew Moody from past days when that inmate had been a lobbyist in the state capital. Billie Sol told Moody that he wanted to tell the story publicly about his long and close relationship with Lyndon Johnson (LBJ) as LBJ's bagman and requested Moody's assistance in getting this done. Moody was happy to oblige.

I met with Billie Sol in prison, who related his desire to tell all. I suggested that he do so in book form and that I would be helpful in any way that I could since I already had two books published.

Moody and I heard nothing more from Billie Sol until soon after his release from prison in early January 1984. At that time he called Moody and Moody again asked me to visit Billie Sol at the latter's home in Abilene, Texas.

There Billie Sol presented me with a copy of the recently released book that his daughter, Pam Estes, had written based on my suggestion to him when he was in prison. Its title was "Billie Sol: King of the Wheeler-Dealers" and it had caused a minor sensation. Based on its limited success, Billie Sol said that he wanted to have his own story published. His daughter's book only told her personal story of the tribulations of the Estes' family in the preceding 20 years.

However, Billie Sol said that before he could tell his full story in book form that he had to get immunity from prosecution by the Texas law authorities and by the U.S. Department of Justice as there is no statute of limitations for murder. A friend of mine, Edward Miller, a former Assistant Director of the FBI, arranged for Miller and myself to meet with Stephen Trott, Assistant Attorney General for the Criminal Division of the Justice Department, to discuss the question of granting immunity to Billie Sol.

Miller and I met with Trott several times. The Forum has already in its discussions among its members remarked upon the letters exchanged between Trott and myself. In the end the immunity effort came to an abrupt halt when Billie Sol got cold feet at the last moment and backed out of a meeting with three FBI agents sent by Trott to meet with him and myself in Abilene in September 1984.

The contents of the letters between Trott and myself speak for themselves. Billie Sol did not provide me with any evidence that his story, as detailed in the letters, was true. I never heard nor saw the clandestine tape recordings that he claimed that he had in his possession that had been made years earlier, which allegedly supported his contentions.

However, there is quite a bit of supporting evidence from other sources. This is as follows:

(1) In 1964, J. Evetts Haley, a distinguished Texas historian, wrote "A Texan Looks at Lyndon." Millions of copies of this paperback were widely distributed. Haley's book provided concrete evidence concerning most of the murders outlined in my correspondence with Trott.

(2) In attempting to get Billie Sol immunity in 1984, I worked closely with Clint Peoples, U.S. Marshal for the Northern District of Texas. Peoples had followed the Estes' story for many years, having been assigned to the Estes' pending criminal case in the 1960's when he was a Texas Ranger. Peoples had several large file drawers containing materials about Estes and the murders that he showed me when I visited him in the U.S. Courthouse in Dallas. He was on good terms with Estes and constantly encouraged me to do my best to get Estes' story out. When he retired he became head of the Texas Rangers Museum in Waco, Texas, and in 1992 was killed in an automobile accident. Where Peoples' extensive files on Estes and the murders are today is unknown.

(3) I arranged for Lucianne Goldberg, then a literary agent and now sponsor of http://www.lucianne.com/, to visit Billie Sol in Abilene in 1984 in an effort to get his story published. Lucianne there disclosed to us that she had once met Malcolm (Mac) Wallace, who was the stone-cold killer retained by LBJ, when she had worked in the White House in LBJ's administration.

(4) The Texas Observer, a highly respected journal of opinion, published a thoroughly researched article by Bill Adler in its November 7, 1986 issue titled, "The Killing of Henry Marshall." The article is required reading for anyone interested in the murders.

(5) In 1998, a video titled "LBJ: A Closer Look" was released, having been produced by two Californians, Lyle and Theresa Sardie. The video contains interviews with key persons who knew of the murders and of the LBJ-Billie Sol connection.

(6) In 2003, the book "Blood, Money & Power: How LBJ murdered JFK" was published. Its author is Barr McClellan, father of Bush's current press secretary in the White House, Scott McClellan. Barr McClellan was a lawyer with the law firm in Austin that handled LBJ's secret financial empire before and after he became President.

(7) Also in 2003, the History Channel showed "The Men Who Killed Kennedy: The Final Chapter." Much of this show drew on McClellan's book and my letters to Trott. After it was telecast several times, immense pressure was brought upon the History Channel to withdraw the video from being offered for sale to the public. For the first time in its own history the History Channel succumbed to this outside pressure that was orchestrated by Jack Valenti, head of the Motion Pictures Association of America and former LBJ aide, and reluctantly withdrew the video from public circulation.

(8) Both Barr McClellan and I, among others, have in our possession documents and papers, too numerous and lengthy to detail here, that help to round out the full LBJ-Billie Sol story, including letters from LBJ to Billie Sol.

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In answer to your questions:

1) I give great credibility to the accusations made by Billie Sol Estes in the relevant 1984 letter to the U.S. Department of Justice. There were contemporaneous newspaper reports of the untimely deaths of almost all of the persons listed by him in the letter. In addition, Texan historian J. Evetts Haley in his 1964 book, A Texan Looks at Lyndon, wrote in great detail about Estes and the victims.

2) I don’t think my having met Estes, which originally occurred in 1983 when I was asked to do so by Shearn Moody, Jr., of the Moody Foundation in connection with a grant request from Estes, influenced my assessment of the accusations one way or the other. This is because there already existed in the public record much evidence to support Estes’ accusations.

3) U.S. Marshal Clint Peoples, who had closely followed Estes’ activities for 25 years, told me on several occasions that his research supported Estes’ accusations. His exact words to me: “It is about time that the truth comes out.” It was Marshal Peoples who arranged for Estes to testify in 1984 before the Robertson County grand jury. Press reports at the time disclosed that Estes reiterated his accusations in his grand jury testimony.

4) There was no signed and notarized document of Estes dating before I met him that recorded his accusations. He had not determined to tell what he knew until while still in federal prison at Big Spring, Texas, he contacted Shearn Moody, Jr. in 1983 and indicated he was prepared to relate for the public record what he knew.

5) Estes has maintained that he has taped recordings of conversations of the conspirators that support his accusations. I have not heard the recordings and have no knowledge of their whereabouts,

6) He confided in U.S. Marshal Peoples of what he knew. Peoples is now deceased. However, the transcript of Estes’ testimony before the Robertson County grand jury in 1984, if it were unsealed, would clarify much.

7) At the time of JFK assassination, LBJ was facing criminal proceedings stemming from his involvement in the Billie Sol Estes and the Bobby Baker scandals that were reaching the explosive stage. LBJ’s involvement in these two scandals certainly adds credence to what Estes has alleged.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKestes.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billie_Sol_Estes

Thank you for such an interesting reply. By the way, Clint Peoples was killed in a car accident. Do you think he was murdered?

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKpeoples.htm

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I don't think LBJ was involved; however, I do believe that the conspirators understood, in regard to the Dallas connection (as in other aspects of the plot, which relied upon a coverup to conceal collateral corruptions), that LBJ would be scared enough to worry about such connections to participate eagerly in a coverup.

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