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David,

Nicely put.

They worked all the way back to the corner of the TSBD as their starting point.

It looks like you're starting to understand the complete math equation.

chris

Chris, I'm not sure I understand your math. I would not be surprised though, if the WC got their measurements wrong. What I can say for sure however, is that the fatal head shot was indeed fired at the actual point in time it is seen in the Zapruder film - at 313. Various frames in the film can be compared with other photos and films, and in this case we can look at Moorman's last photo.

This photo was taken at the equivalent of Zapruder frame 315, just a hair after the fatal head shot and we can see the obvious damage to the top of JFK's head. Had the limo been 30 feet further up the road, when the fatal shot was fired, Moorman would have been long gone from Zapruder's view. As it is, both she and officer Hargis are in the picture, which matches perfectly with her position, relative to Zapruder at that frame.

moorman-zapruder.jpg

To the best of my knowledge, ALL other relevant photos and films match up with the Zfilm, perfectly. Even Mantik has admitted that when he studied the Nix and Muchmore films he could find no discrepancies between them and Zapruder.

Hi Robert,

Yes, the 313 headshot is locked in by the yellow curb marker in the background.

There is another headshot some 30ft farther down Elm St.

chris

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'' What I can say for sure however, is that the fatal head shot was indeed fired at the actual point in time it is seen in the Zapruder film - at 313 ''

to be more exact, the shot (whichever) was fired about a couple of frames previously.

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http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/Myers255.png

From the graphic provided, how about multiplying the Time Til 313 (13.95 sec) by 18.3fps.

You see, it doesn't matter if someone was filming at this point or not, their camera(Zapruder) would still be running at 18.3fps.

Once your done with that, there are 58 frames to go. Warning!!! Something smells fishy.

You can then plug that back into an equation such as 58/18.3fps=3.169 sec.

Then add that back to the Time Til 313 which is 13.95 + 3.169=17.12 sec.

Now multiply 17.12 sec x 18.3 fps=313.29 frames

Now multiply 13.95 x 22.8(The film speed Myers has for Towner)=318frames

Now take 318-313=5 frames. (161-166) adjustment

Do you understand what he did?

chris

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All for your pleasure there CL...

Maybe you'll laugh yourself to :rip

Since all this is so amusing to you....

and so far beyond your comprehension that all you HAVE are these cute little comments....

when you figure out how the lane strip moves in your 10" off Altgens position recreation photo...

of how nothing else lines up when using the obelisk as the anchor

Same distance, same focal length, virtually the same location (according to you)... yet two completely different results...

Pull out that lever math of yours and use it on your lane marker... a whole lot of movement for being so close to the camera

and then tell us whether the recreation photo was cropped or not... if they took it from the same location with the same lens, where's the rest of the image?

this should be entertaining... :ice

altgensrecreationisBS.jpg

You silly little boy...you can't overlay those photos and expect to "measure" anything. The PERSPECTIVE has changed. Oh wait...never mind. YOU don't understand perspective.

BTW, we are STILL waiting for your plat that shows us a triangulated set of LOS's to prove your claim that the camera moved MANY FEET.

Talk about entertaining...dave you ran away when it got yo YOU putting up ANYTHING that supports your silly claim. You ever gonna do ANY real work or will you just continue to just flap your gums?

BTW Dave, the LENS used is immaterial...you SHOULD know better...

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/changing-perspective.shtml

my gosh, you're STILL out there trying to protect Dale *want to see my EMMY* Myers? His ideas are toast, dude. LMAO! ! ! !

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my gosh, you're STILL out there trying to protect Dale *want to see my EMMY* Myers? His ideas are toast, dude. LMAO! ! ! !

Please try and keep up dave. As it stands you just look silly when you post things that have no relevence to the post to which you are replying. Sheesh.

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http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/Myers255.png

From the graphic provided, how about multiplying the Time Til 313 (13.95 sec) by 18.3fps.

You see, it doesn't matter if someone was filming at this point or not, their camera(Zapruder) would still be running at 18.3fps.

Once your done with that, there are 58 frames to go. Warning!!! Something smells fishy.

You can then plug that back into an equation such as 58/18.3fps=3.169 sec.

Then add that back to the Time Til 313 which is 13.95 + 3.169=17.12 sec.

Now multiply 17.12 sec x 18.3 fps=313.29 frames

Now multiply 13.95 x 22.8(The film speed Myers has for Towner)=318frames

Now take 318-313=5 frames. (161-166) adjustment

Do you understand what he did?

chris

You have to go back to this chart to understand.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/Myers2-1.png

If you check back to the Myers Time Til 313 13.95 sec chart I supplied, look where he starts his countdown from.

JFK within the limo is aligned with the TSBD corner.

Now look at the graph where he shows the limo intersecting Towner and the difference between Z150 and Z170.

It's the front of the limo touching the intersecting line, not JFK within the limo.

He changed the measuring point. That is a difference of 15ft.

Since he only has the front of the limo at Z150, JFK is some 30ft back from frame 161.

I'm going to go through this very slowly, so everyone can see what's been done.

Be patient, it will hit you eventually.

Any questions, please ask.

chris

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http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/Myers150-161.jpg

Look at the difference in time between frame 150 and 160.

That is .55sec for 10 frames which is .05sec per frame for that span.

I need frame 161 included, 1 more frame so I add .05 to .55 = .6sec.

So Myers needs the limo to go 30ft (previous graphics) from frame 150-161 in .6sec and 11 frames. to start syncing with the WC scenario starting with frame 161.

According to the Zfilm which has the limo traveling at a steady speed, referring to CE884 and the frame x frame speed comparisons within, it's going approx 1ft per 1frame = 12+ mph.

The supplied document gives you the conversion for this predicament of Myers.

chris

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Refer back to this document:

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/VehicleSpeed-2.jpg

I have tried to point out this is a document the WC used for their calculations regarding what we are discussing.

You have to deal with differences in this document to understand it.

For instance:

The top 2 left hand columns have (3 and 14) frames listed and (.9ft and 19.2ft) as distance traveled.

It is the difference between both of these sets that give you your 11 frames @18.3ft traveled.

If it takes 11 frames to travel 18.3ft, converted to 1 sec will take 18.3/11=1.66

18.3ft x 1.66 = 30ft.

Myers has to move the measuring point back from the "front of the limo" to "JFK in the limo" in a very short amount of time.

Now take a look at the upper and lower top frame counts. you have 3 + 5

3/5=.6

5/3=1.66

Look at the miles per hour difference between the two. 3.74 and 2.24

2.24/3.74=.5989 = .6

Now reverse it:

3.74/2.24= 1.66

You now have the conversion formula, from the WC documents, relating to Myers predicament.

And if you doubt it, look at the time Myers needs to get from frame 150-161. He has .6 sec.

chris

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Myers time for JFK aligned with TSBD corner to Z313= 13.95 sec.

Chris's remedy for 2 film speeds @ 18.3 and 24fps

frame 1-156 24fps = 6.5 sec.

frame 157-207 18.3 fps=3.16 sec Actually, this is 58 frames, not 50, but slice the excess back behind the Stemmons sign and continue with the 24fps version.

frame 207-313 24fps=4.29 sec

The splice to 24 fps behind the Stemmons sign is to accommodate the Altgen's photo sync with the Zfilm at 255.

Myers has given you the time for JFK from point A to B (13.95 sec)

What he hasn't given you is a distance. He can't make his syncing work without the limo jumping forward some huge distance in a very short period of time.

Why do you think he has to change his measuring mark from "JFK in the limo" to the "front of the limo" within his sync analysis.

If you want to believe Towner's camera ran at 22.8fps (Myers rate to sync with the existing films), when it was made to run at approx 18fps.

chris

P.S.

Now work the time spans backward from 313 and look at the WC frame total from 161-313.

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Excellent stuff here Chris.... a question though...

24fps... my understanding is that the available speeds for THAT camera were 18 and 48 fps (slow mo)

How do we get to 24fps other than halving slow-mo... or another camera?

Camera Specifications

Camera Maker: Bell & Howell.

Model: 414PD Director Series

Film Type: Double 8mm - 25ft or 50ft film roll

Film Speeds: ASA 10 to ASA 40

Running Speed: Single frame, 16fps and 48fps (slow motion.)

Lens: Bell & Howell Varamat f1.8 / 9-27mm - Power Zoom

Mechanism: Spring Motor

Lightmeter: Built-in Dual Electric-Eye.

Non-reflex viewfinder (parallax corrected and coupled with zoom.)

The camera zooms from telephoto to wide angle. It focuses from 6.0 feet to infinity. The camera has built in haze filters.

The camera can adjust from f/1.8 to f/22 to accommodate all types of film.

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David,

Some more numbers for you:

Just in case you don't like my numbers, primarily the 3.16 sec span, here is a little more from Myers on 2 other films that were running while the limo was up near the TSBD corner.

(SEC-6) F.M. “Mark” Bell Film – Camera Frame Rate: 19.0 fps

The F.M. “Mark” Bell film consists of 14 sequences; 3 pre-assassination and 11 post assassination. The third sequence depicts the presidential limousine passing in front of the Texas School Book Depository after turning from Houston onto Elm Street, and was the only sequence used in this study. The third sequence encompasses frames numbered B001 through B060 and covers a time period of 3.16 seconds; beginning 14.69 seconds before the fatal head shot and ending 11.58 seconds before the head shot. The frame rate of the Bell camera, relative to Zapruder’s camera, was determined to be 19.0 frames-per-second. There are no camera stops or splices during the third sequence identified as Bell frames B001 through B060.

(SEC-7) John Martin, Jr., Film – Camera Frame Rate: 22.8 fps

The John Martin, Jr., film consists of 9 sequences; 6 pre-assassination and 3 post assassination. Sequence 1 depicts the lead motorcycles turning from Main Street onto Houston Street. Sequences 2 and 3 depict the lead vehicle driven by Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry turning from Main onto Houston Street. Sequences 4 and 5 depict the presidential limousine as it turns off of Main Street and travels north on Houston Street. Sequence 6 depicts the presidential limousine passing in front of the Texas School Book Depository, and eyewitness Rosemary Willis running alongside the south side of Elm Street. Sequences 7, 8, and 9 depict events in Dealey Plaza following the assassination. The sixth sequence encompasses frames MN207 through MN278 and covers a time period of 3.15 seconds; beginning 12.54 seconds before the fatal head shot and ending 9.45 seconds before the head shot. The frame rate of the Martin camera, relative to Zapruder’s camera, was determined to be 22.8 frames-per-second. There are no camera stops or splices between Martin frames MN207-MN278.

Besides the same matching (3.16) time frame, the Martin film was running exactly at the same rate as Towner.

I guess Martin's camera was made from the same elements as Towners, which is supposed to be running at approx 18fps, but on the same day, at the same time approx, both frame rates were identical and they all sync up with Z.

chris

Edited by Chris Davidson
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The question is:

How did the WC measure their distances?

Answer: It depends on what distances they needed to fulfill their requirements. Did they use straight-line, angles or maybe a combination of both.

Repeatedly, I have suggested that Herbert and Craig work from both ends of the equation, it appears you're unwilling to do so.

So, I'll do it for them. Since you introduced Don's plat, here is a partial overlay of it onto Drommer.

In the upper left side is a portion of CE884. Note the entries in the red boxes.

On the plat itself, Don has listed a few elevations in Gold type.

They are 421.25 inside a purple box and 426.7 inside the red box.

Also note, there is white numbering from Drommer in alignment with the + sign Don has used in noting his elevations.

The elevation 426.7 inside the red box signifies Zframe161 or (Drommer 97.2)

The elevation 421.25 signifies Zframe 255 or (Drommer 91.5)

CE884 Zframe161= elevation 429.25 which does not = Don's 426.7

CE884 Zframe313= elevation 421.75 which has its elevation much closer to Z255.

Do you guys remember the equation:

13.95 sec x 18.3fps =255.28 frames

Why do you think the CE884 elevation entry for Zframe313 is near the Zframe255 real elevation?

Here's a hint!!! It's called vertical to horizontal distance transfer disease. The WC was infected with it.

Better yet, take Drommer, connect the white number elevations (97.2 Zframe 161 and 88.8 Zframe 313) with a straight line, then measure it at the angle it sits, rotate it so it's a straight line and measure again.

You might just come up with differences of 15 and 30ft in comparison to the CE884 WC distance of 136.1ft from Z161-Z313.

Just as Myers has done, so has the WC, I've just synced them together for you.

chris

P.S.

Remember to shrink Drommer down to 71.5% need that Houston St. 60ft wide.

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Thanks again Chris... math doesn't lie, yet it does allow you to do some interesting things as well as make some serious blunders if there are relationships in the numbers that occur naturally....

I don't see that happeneing here... when you repeatedly arrive at the same conclusions with different approaches yet using the same math... kinda hard to refute.... but I'm sure Cl and HB will keep trying...

Not sure you addressed how the zfilm might have been filmed at 24fps when 16(18) and 48fps are the only options... I'd like your thoughts on that

Furthermore... looking at Bell and Martin something immediately becomes apparent... There's no Rosemary running along the limo in Bell.

In Martin she is seen running along side between the front and rear wheels of the limo as it passes

In Bell, we can see both front and rear wheels pass thru the frame and no Rosemary...

What am I missing?

noRoseWillisinMartin.jpg

David,

Some more numbers for you:

Just in case you don't like my numbers, primarily the 3.16 sec span, here is a little more from Myers on 2 other films that were running while the limo was up near the TSBD corner.

(SEC-6) F.M. “Mark” Bell Film – Camera Frame Rate: 19.0 fps

The F.M. “Mark” Bell film consists of 14 sequences; 3 pre-assassination and 11 post assassination. The third sequence depicts the presidential limousine passing in front of the Texas School Book Depository after turning from Houston onto Elm Street, and was the only sequence used in this study. The third sequence encompasses frames numbered B001 through B060 and covers a time period of 3.16 seconds; beginning 14.69 seconds before the fatal head shot and ending 11.58 seconds before the head shot. The frame rate of the Bell camera, relative to Zapruder’s camera, was determined to be 19.0 frames-per-second. There are no camera stops or splices during the third sequence identified as Bell frames B001 through B060.

(SEC-7) John Martin, Jr., Film – Camera Frame Rate: 22.8 fps

The John Martin, Jr., film consists of 9 sequences; 6 pre-assassination and 3 post assassination. Sequence 1 depicts the lead motorcycles turning from Main Street onto Houston Street. Sequences 2 and 3 depict the lead vehicle driven by Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry turning from Main onto Houston Street. Sequences 4 and 5 depict the presidential limousine as it turns off of Main Street and travels north on Houston Street. Sequence 6 depicts the presidential limousine passing in front of the Texas School Book Depository, and eyewitness Rosemary Willis running alongside the south side of Elm Street. Sequences 7, 8, and 9 depict events in Dealey Plaza following the assassination. The sixth sequence encompasses frames MN207 through MN278 and covers a time period of 3.15 seconds; beginning 12.54 seconds before the fatal head shot and ending 9.45 seconds before the head shot. The frame rate of the Martin camera, relative to Zapruder’s camera, was determined to be 22.8 frames-per-second. There are no camera stops or splices between Martin frames MN207-MN278.

Besides the same matching (3.16) time frame, the Martin film was running exactly at the same rate as Towner.

I guess Martin's camera was made from the same elements as Towners, which is supposed to be running at approx 18fps, but on the same day, at the same time approx, both frame rates were identical and they all sync up with Z.

chris

Edited by David Josephs
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