Echoes in Dealey Plaza,"Not the Book"

[Malcolm Ward]

I believe the assassination of President John F Kennedy was a military job.So the tactics used would be military,meaning you need crossfire in a ambush to get a job done to a satisfactory conclusion.Also,once the shooting started,he had to die,it would be a fiasco if he got away wounded.For he would use all at his disposal to pursue,capture his attackers.

The shots that went of in Dealey Plaza,would have caused echoes because of the high buildings in that area.I am sure this would add to the confusion,purposely to confuse how many bullets were fired and were they were coming from.Add to that if you use weapons with silencers,Possibly like the Welrod.A WW11 British made assassination pistol.From the Stockade fence or other areas close to the presidential car.

Info on Welrod.

Production of the larger, more powerful and more effective 9mm Welrod Mk.I commenced in 1944, on request of the British Special operations forces. The latter model survived for a quite long time, and some 9mm Welrod Mk.I pistols were apparently still in operational use by British Special Operations forces as late as in 1991, during the operation Desert Storm.

Source:

http://world.guns.ru...d-silent-e.html

I would even go as far as say,if he had survived getting out of Dealey Plaza itself,by something short of a miracle.There would have been men on the underpass to finish the job.

Jim Marrs, in his book Crossfire, relates the story of Julius Hardee. Hardee told The Dallas Morning News that on the morning of November 22nd he saw three men on top of the Triple underpass carrying either shotguns or rifles. Whether these men were police officers or not is unknown. Hardee claimed he reported the incident to the FBI but no report about the incident has surfaced.

Source:

http://www.acorn.net...ue/guns_dp.html

Because it seems the Zapruder film is possibly tampered with.The autopsy at Bethseda Naval Hospital was possibly compromised.The presidential limousine was stripped out.It is very hard to prove conclusively,either way,were all the shots come from.

But I would think,someone fired from the front.Perhaps this is why Greer did not put his foot down.If he was uncertain which way the shots were coming from.My opinion is Greer did a shoddy job,and movement would have made the target harder.But I don't think he was bought of to stop.But that is just my opinion.

I am not sure if most of this has been covered already.If so sorry,if not,perhaps something useful can come out of looking at it again.

[John Dolva]

I don't know if there is any general consensus on this. I've followed previous discussions on it but they never seem to truly adress the matter.

There have been some (imo) interesting comments on it. One persons testimony on this may be significant. HDH (of course). He and the 4 odd unidentified (tho I think a recent post may have named two) PIs with him from a vantage point overlooking the scene without lines of sound travel being as interfered with obstacles and without being too immediate. I don't think he really says much about it. but things can be inferred from whatever he does say.

Another is one members desription of sound echoing across the opening of the underpass. (one thing to keep in mind is that an echo occurs at about units of 16 odd meters)

Another is the semicircular pagoda wall which may act as a sound lens which could place a sound from that phenomena as a crack behind Newman or other places depending on where the sound came from.

2c fwiw

edit add I forgot, also in all these things it's important to understand what front actually means to different people. Then one can understand where left right and behind is.

Edited April 21, 2012 by John Dolva

[J. Raymond Carroll]

I believe the assassination of President John F Kennedy was a military job.So the tactics used would be military,meaning you need crossfire in a ambush to get a job done to a satisfactory conclusion.

Greetings, Malcolm and welcome.

I am no military genius to be sure

but I have heard of successful assassination attempts

where the shots came from only one direction.

I am not convinced that there was a crossfire in Dealey Plaza.

Shooters on the knoll had the distinct advantage of a target

that kept coming closer and growing larger

plus they had the sun BEHIND them.

I submit there was no need for a shooter in the rear

though it paid to make things look that way,

but the final proof or disproof will come

only when a proper medico-legal autopsy is conducted.

Add to that if you use weapons with silencers,Possibly like the Welrod.A WW11 British made assassination pistol.From the Stockade fence or other areas close to the presidential car.

Info on Welrod.

http://world.guns.ru...d-silent-e.html

Very interesting. Thank you for posting this.

Because it seems the Zapruder film is possibly tampered with.

The autopsy at Bethseda Naval Hospital was possibly compromised.

I submit there is universal agreement among forensic pathologists

that the best you can say is the JFK autopsy was a botched job.

That fact remains even and especially if the Zapruder film is authentic.

[Malcolm Ward]

Thank you both for your comments,much appreciated.Having further looked around with Mr Google's assistance I came across this.

At any reasonable distance, both the conical and spherical waves are essentially plane waves with respect to a small object such as an observer's head. Thus, to determine the apparent locus of the source, we need only take a perpendicular to the appropriate wavefront as it sweeps over the observer. Figure 2 shows the geometry of the two waves at two different times. The shock wave, at time 1, has just reached the observer; its apparent locus is along the path of the bullet on a perpendicular to the shock wave. At this time, the wave from the muzzle blast has not reached the observer. At time 2, when the blast wave has reached the observer, the apparent source of the shot is on a perpendicular to the plane of the spherical blast wave and, therefore, at the muzzle of the rifle.

The buildings around the Plaza caused strong reverberations, or echoes, that followed the initial sound by from 0.5 to 1.5 sec. While these reflections caused no confusion to our listeners, who were prepared and expected ot hear them, they may well have

inflated the number of shots reported by the suprised witnesses during the assassination. The source of these echoes can be predicted from the general geometry of the Plaza. For example, one hears a very strong reflection from the Post Office Annex that arrives about 1 sec after the shot, regardless of whether the rifle is fired from the TSBD or the knoll. Because of the long delay, a listener located on the knoll would recognize this as an echo but might place the source somewhere in back of him, anywhere from the TSBD to the railway overpass.

Note:Paragraphs of interest taken,but better to read the full article.

Source:

http://jfkassassinat...jfk8/sound2.htm

Edited April 21, 2012 by Malcolm Ward

[Greg Burnham]

Greetings, Malcolm and welcome.

I am no military genius to be sure

but I have heard of successful assassination attempts

where the shots came from only one direction.

I am not convinced that there was a crossfire in Dealey Plaza.

Shooters on the knoll had the distinct advantage of a target

that kept coming closer and growing larger

plus they had the sun BEHIND them.

Ray,

That is incorrect. The sun would not be behind shooters on the knoll. It would be about 45 degrees to their right if they were facing perpendicular to the street. The farther down Elm the shooters pivoted in order to maintain their target the more the sun would be in their eyes. If one is facing the triple underpass from ALTGENS position, they are mostly facing WEST. The grassy knoll is located to the NORTH (if not North by NW) of where the limousine is at Z-313. The shooting ocurred at about 12:30, when the sun is high in the sky. The disadvantage with which shooters from the knoll would have had to contend has more to do with lateral motion. While you are correct that when the limo was up near the corner of Elm and Houston the target would have been coming closer and getting larger, still, by the time it reached the kill zone it would have acquired substantial lateral motion relative to the shooter's position on the knoll.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Greg Burnham

[J. Raymond Carroll]

by the time it reached the kill zone it would have acquired substantial lateral motion relative to the shooters position on the knoll.

OK Greg, I'll buy your argument re sun direction,

noting that knoll shooters would be shaded by the bushes.

For those who believe the z film is authentic,

there can be no doubt that the fatal shot came from the knoll

since the bullet clearly drove JFK backwards.

So the lateral motion was not enough to deter the assassins.

Correct me if I am wrong

but wouldn't a TSBD shooter

assuming there was one

have the sun in his eyes

Edited April 21, 2012 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Greg Burnham]

by the time it reached the kill zone it would have acquired substantial lateral motion relative to the shooters position on the knoll.

OK Greg, I'll buy your argument re sun direction,

noting that knoll shooters would be shaded by the bushes.

For those who believe the z film is authentic,

there can be no doubt that the fatal shot came from the knoll

since the bullet clearly drove JFK backwards.

So the lateral motion was not enough to deter the assassins.

The only safe way to insure that the lateral motion wouldn't deter the Grassy Knoll sniper(s) would be to eliminate it. That is the ONLY way. So, if there was a knoll shooter whose bullet hit its mark, then it follows that the limousine came to a halt in order to allow the kill shot to be absolutely certain to succeed.

Correct me if I am wrong

but wouldn't a TSBD shooter

assuming there was one

have the sun in his eyes.

I don't think so, Ray. First, in my opinion, the time of day plays an important role here because the sun is not down toward the horizon at 12:30. Secondly, the shooter from the rear would be aiming downward due to the fact that Elm Street declines fairly sharply from Houston Street to the kill zone. Even if a shooter had been at street level he would have been aiming downward not up. If he was in an upper floor of the building the "downward trajectory" would be even more pronounced. So, a TSBD shooter would be facing the direction of the sun, but I don't think it would have been in his eyes at all.

P.S. This does not mean that I am discounting the possibility of a Knoll shooter nor am I necessarily embracing the notion of a TSBD shooter one way or another.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Greg Burnham

[J. Raymond Carroll]

So, if there was a knoll shooter whose bullet hit its mark, then it follows that the limousine came to a halt in order to allow the kill shot to be absolutely certain to succeed.

Seems to me an abrupt slowdown to a speed of barely 8 MIles per hour

which Alvarez measured on the Z-Film --see HSCA Volume 1--

would do the job quite nicely

from a sniper's point of view.

Let me hasten to say that I claim no expertise whatsoever

in the art of sniping

but I used to know a retired Marine corps sniper

who claims he has killed more people than I have ever met

all killings done in Nam and other exotic places

So maybe I will track him down.

I have not read Craig Robert's book, a sniper looks at Dealey Plaza

but I heard him speak at Lancer many years ago.

My recollection is that Roberts opines

that the knoll was by far the best bet

from a professional sniper's point of view.

Of course if you are suggesting that Greer hit the brakes

as part of a prearranged plan

I see nothing to contradict it.

[Greg Burnham]

As a sniper, eight or ten miles an hour is quite slow when looking at a target coming almost directly toward your position--or even a target moving almost directly away from your position. However, if in front of you moving left to right or right to left--it is quite a different affair--particularly if the target is relatively close as that proximity is harder to compensate for lateral motion. Possible? Yes. Preferable? NOPE. Risky? Absolutely. Would the conspirators rid the kill zone of as many obstacles to success as possible? Without question. To wit: The Secret Service had an advance team...and so did the conspirators.

Since the "kill" had not been accomplished farther up Elm...and now needed to be completed circa Z-313 by Knoll shooters, it was mandatory to STOP the target or risk failure.

...

Edited April 22, 2012 by Greg Burnham

[Malcolm Ward]

If Bill Greer,did indeed,purposely stop the car.To take that sort of risk,of being found out.To be part of a conspiracy.I would have expected him to have received a substantial reward for doing so.Even if he hated Kennedy,although there is nothing to prove this,he would have wanted,expected a fair amount of cash,I believe.

After the Assassination was there anything to suggest that Bill Greer became more wealthy that his pay would suggest.Did he buy a nice car and a big house for instance,did he leave a substantial amount when he died.

If we are to take the Secret Service stand down as a part of the plot.And it does look a bit odd seeing those guys jump of the back of the car at Love Field Airport.How many would you have to buy of.

But if all you need is a big car to slow down,in a hard to make turn to get a good shot.

Greer's head turn was a bit weird,especially a second look.He was getting toward retiring age and suffering from ulcers.But I would like to see some evidence of him either being blackmailed,was he a gambler in debt for instance,or some show of large financial gain.

Abraham Boden suggests that Secret Service agents discussed saying they would not put there life in danger in a attempt on JFK's Life.Even if that is in there Job Description.How many would really stand and take the hit.

If bullets were coming from different directions,if confusion reigned,and the knowledge that the Secret Service would do little to protect the President.Why risk buying them off,bringing them into the loop.

That is my opinion at any rate.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

If Bill Greer,did indeed,purposely stop the car.....

If bullets were coming from different directions,if confusion reigned,and the knowledge that the Secret Service would do little to protect the President.Why risk buying them off,bringing them into the loop.

If Greer was part of the plot, that would surely mean

that the plot allowed only shots from the front.

I think Greer saw combat in WWII, but regardless,

He would surely never have agreed to be caught in a crossfire.

[Greg Burnham]

I do not think that Greer was part of the plot. I spoke at length with Nick Principe who was the lead Presidential motorcycle escort in Washington DC. He was with the DC Park Police, who supplemented the Secret Service and his unit provided motor escort services. He was there from the days of Harry Truman for whom my father worked. When Nick retired, the DC Park Police retired his police motorcycle's license plate and gave it to him. The license plate read: US GOV 1 -- That was his government issued license plate. Quite unique. Quite impressive. You don't get that by being less than exemplary.

Both Nick and my dad knew Greer very well. Both men said that Greer appeared to be overwhelmed by the situation in Dallas...as opposed to complicit in it.

Although Barb Junkarinnen has disputed Nick's account, I disagree with her. His recollection of Greer was clear, as was my dad's. I had never spoken to my dad about Greer until after I had spoken to Nick. Up until then I always pretty much assumed that Greer must have been involved given his actions--or lack thereof. However, Nick said that Greer's impression was that there were multiple shooters (at the time in Dallas) and he could not tell from which direction the shots originated. Nick said that Greer told him that he was afraid that he was driving INTO an ambush, not away from one, which is why Greer brought the limo to a stop.

My father was less sympathetic toward Greer. When I asked him about this, my dad said [paraphrased]: "Greer was the kind of guy who was good at brining you coffee." In other words, Greer was NOT equipped to handle this duty. JFK's much younger scheduled driver, whose name escapes me at the moment, was taken off the Dallas trip and the task fell to Greer. My father said that Greer no longer had the "edge" by this time in his career (I believe Greer was 54 in Dallas).

My view is that Greer was NOT compromised or bought off. That is too messy--too much risk. Too much "payola" required. And..what if he had refused to participate? Would you offer him more money? Or would you kill him because he knew of the plot? Way too messy. No, Greer was not complicit. Greer was ill equipped to handle this duty. He was maneuvered into this position intentionally. If not for the regular driver "becoming ill" (as we are expected to believe), Greer wouldn't have even been there at all.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Greg Burnham

[Guest Robert Morrow]

You learn a lot by talking to friends of the principals related to the story of the JFK assassination. My current thinking is neither William Greer nor Emory Roberts were involved in the JFK assassination. I used to be quite suspicious of both of them -- not really now.

JFK assassination researcher Pat Speer spoke to a friend of Emory Roberts and Speer is convinced that Emory Roberts was not involved in the JFK assassination either.

Pat Speer:

"In short, I think it's just cruel to blame the men on Kennedy's detail for his death, and more than cruel to claim they were all (or mostly) in on it. At the 2008 COPA Conference on RFK, there was an unexpected attendee: former Secret Service Agent Darwin Horn. He was assigned to guard Ethel and the kids while Bobby lay dying, and he stopped by to tell his story (and sell a few books). In any event, I talked to him for about five minutes, mostly about Emory Roberts. According to Horn, who claimed to know Roberts fairly well, Roberts was tormented by the Kennedy assassination. When I told Horn some buffs think Roberts was part of the plot, his 80 something face turned red, and he made his disgust quite clear.

Of course, one could say Horn was either naive, or a xxxx. This would explain why, in his 80's, he stopped by a conspiracy convention to tell everyone how much he admired Ethel. Yeah, right. "

http://educationforu...pic=16972&st=30

Edited April 23, 2012 by Robert Morrow

[Malcolm Ward]

I do not think that Greer was part of the plot. I spoke at length with Nick Principe who was the lead Presidential motorcycle escort in Washington DC. He was with the DC Park Police, who supplemented the Secret Service and his unit provided motor escort services. He was there from the days of Harry Truman for whom my father worked. When Nick retired, the DC Park Police retired his police motorcycle's license plate and gave it to him. The license plate read: US GOV 1 -- That was his government issued license plate. Quite unique. Quite impressive. You don't get that by being less than exemplary.

Both Nick and my dad knew Greer very well. Both men said that Greer appeared to be overwhelmed by the situation in Dallas...as opposed to complicit in it.

Although Barb Junkarinnen has disputed Nick's account, I disagree with her. His recollection of Greer was clear, as was my dad's. I had never spoken to my dad about Greer until after I had spoken to Nick. Up until then I always pretty much assumed that Greer must have been involved given his actions--or lack thereof. However, Nick said that Greer's impression was that there were multiple shooters (at the time in Dallas) and he could not tell from which direction the shots originated. Nick said that Greer told him that he was afraid that he was driving INTO an ambush, not away from one, which is why Greer brought the limo to a stop.

My father was less sympathetic toward Greer. When I asked him about this, my dad said [paraphrased]: "Greer was the kind of guy who was good at brining you coffee." In other words, Greer was NOT equipped to handle this duty. JFK's much younger scheduled driver, whose name escapes me at the moment, was taken off the Dallas trip and the task fell to Greer. My father said that Greer no longer had the "edge" by this time in his career (I believe Greer was 54 in Dallas).

My view is that Greer was NOT compromised or bought off. That is too messy--too much risk. Too much "payola" required. And..what if he had refused to participate? Would you offer him more money? Or would you kill him because he knew of the plot? Way too messy. No, Greer was not complicit. Greer was ill equipped to handle this duty. He was maneuvered into this position intentionally. If not for the regular driver "becoming ill" (as we are expected to believe), Greer wouldn't have even been there at all.

That would be my opinion also,get the old guy driving,reflexes are slowing down for most of us post fifty,he was probably a good chauffeur,but not necessarily good at tactical driving.In fact modern law enforcement officers who train in fishtailing would know more about tactical driving than Greer.He was more up to driving,"Miss Daisey." In my opinion.A smooth ride,but that is about it.Plus with JFK,s bad back,I would think he liked a smooth ride.

[Richard Hocking]

...

Correct me if I am wrong

but wouldn't a TSBD shooter

assuming there was one

have the sun in his eyes

Using the Naval Oceanography Portal:

http://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/alt-az-us

For Dallas, TX at 12:30 pm, 11/22/63

Azimuth of Sun: 184.9°

Elevation of Sun: 37°

The sun was basically 5° West of due South. The "Sniper's Lair" window was facing South. The Sun was also low enough in the sky (37°) to be a factor for a shooter looking roughly in that direction. When the Limo was directly in front of the window would have been the moment of maximum glare. As the Limo proceeded West on Elm, it would have steadily been moving away from the stationary position of the sun. Depending on the position of the Limo, there was also a downward angle from the 6th floor window.

If you take 20° as a rough estimate of the downward angle from the window to the Limo, the Sun would be roughly 57° (37 + 20) above the target.