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I count FOUR copies and the original Zfilm on 11/22


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As I see it... Zapruder has an 8mm copy of the film to show on 11/23 in the morning... Sorrells has 2 copies, and Phillips sends a THIRD PRINT to Rowley on 11/22

1) Zap = original and best of three copies (this copy supposedly given to Stolley 11/25)

2&3) Sorrells gets two films

4) Phillips sends one to Rowley

Of the two films Sorrels is supposed to have, 0186 winds up with the FBI - via Kelley - 0185 and 0187 stay...

Zap keeps one, say 0187 and all that's left is 0185

With only one left in Sorrels possession how can Phillips both leave a copy with Sorrels AND send one to Rowley?

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/organ2.htm

On Zapruder's behalf, WFAA contacted the Eastman Kodak Company on Manor Way, who agreed to process his film right away. Kodak employee Phil Chamberlain recalled there was only three reels of camera film available to make first-generation copies. Later that afternoon, Sorrels received two of the copies at Zapruder's office. That evening, one of Sorrels' copies was on its way to Secret Service Chief James Rowley in Washington.

Yet not according to Max Phillips a third copy was sent... and Zap has a MASTER, which I guess is the same as an ORIGINAL?

According to Zavada, SS copy #1 has no 0185/0187 designation on it, just the 0183 print thru.

0186 was SS copy #2 that was looped by the FBI:

Stolley winds up with the original and Zaps copy (0187)

So SS#1 has to be 0185... which would have remained in Sorrel's possession -(and gone to Rochester then to NPIC?)

8 pm

16 mm film brought from Kodak in Rochester to McMahon and Hunter at NPIC by "Secret Service Agent Bill Smith." Hunter recalls nothing of "Smith" or "Rochester". McMahon says it was original film, but Hunter recalls working on a copy with no intersprocket images. Hunter says film "not high resolution."

Horne, 1222 ff; Bugliosi endnotes, 354; “Murder In Dealey Plaza”, 314-322; Thompson, 2001

Which film does Max send to Rowley ?

CD - 87 Folder 1

CO2 34030 11/22

9:55

To: Chief Rowley

From: Max D. Phillips

Subject: 8mm movie film showing President

Kennedy being shot

Enclosed is an 8mm movie film

taken by Mr. A. Zapruder, 501 Elm St., Dallas

Texas (RI8-6071)

Mr.. Zapruder was photographing

the President at the instant he was shot.

According to Mr. Zapruder, the position of

the assassin was behind Mr. Zapruder.

Note: Disregard personel scenes

shown on Mr. Zapruder’s film.. Mr. Zapruder

is in custody of the "master" film. Two prints

were given to SAIC Sorrels, this date.

The third print is forwarded.

Max D. Phillips

Special Agent - PRS

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This is a bit of a surprise...?

The SS has an EXTRA COPY OF THE Z FILM - which is plain as day... Zapruder can't have a copy AND the FBI AND Sorrells AND Phillips...

Was Zapruder's BEST DAY COPY taken by Max Phillips and then returned to Zapruder?

Or was the remaining print that Sorrels has sent?

And are they in 8mm or 16mm format at this point... I see notes where both 16mm and 8mm films arew shown on 11/23

thanks

DJ

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  • 4 weeks later...

Trask is the source for most if not all this information….

According to the Lancer Timeline, Trask-120; Wrone-26; Zavada Study 1

“In the morning of 11/23 the FBI view a 16mm version at KODAK….” this could EASILY be 0184…. unless you have anything related to a different 16mm showing?

and as you said – they only had 3 rolls of 8mm… why again couldn’t 0184 be a 16mm copy of 0183 that was left at KODAK?

Everything I have ever read says there was no break in production of 185,186,187 and 0183… and there is no explanation for the missing number…

To continue:

Phillips sends this note to Rowley: which suggests the film sent is an 8mm 50+ foot film including Z’s family… according to Zavada’s study… only SS copy #1/0187 meets this requirement

SS #2/0186 – was spliced and looped…. 0183 and 0185 go to LIFE and Zapruder is not left with a copy at all?

According to Mr. Zapruder, the position of

the assassin was behind Mr. Zapruder.

Note: Disregard personnel scenes

shown on Mr. Zapruder’s film.. Mr. Zapruder

is in custody of the "master" film. Two prints

were given to SAIC Sorrels, this date.

The third print is forwarded.

Zapruder is said to have taken the original AND BEST FIRST DAY COPY home with him at 11pm 11/22.

Let’s say 0183 and 0185 (cause 0186 was DEFINITELY the one given to the FBI and the other copies do not have the copy # on them, only the 0183 reproduction)

0183 – the original – is taken by Stolley on the morning of 11/23

0185 – the BEST COPY – is taken by Stolley on the afternoon of 11/25 (author cites an email from you on 5/14/10)

==================================

According to Phillips’ letter to Rowley, Sorrels has 2 copies 0186 and 0187, with the THIRD PRINT FORWARDED?? Which print would THAT be?

=====================================

9pm 11/22 - Zap and Schwarz drive to DPD HQ, find Sorrels who then asks Zap and Schwartz that 2 COPIES BE taken to Max Philips

Zap and Schwartz find Max, give him TWO COPIES and retains none (Zap is supposed to have 0183 AND 0185 that night already, and now also 0186 and 0187 from Sorrels to give to Max)

If 0186 is given to Kelley in the morning… in Tink’s Six Seconds, page 311-312 Max sends 0187 to Rowley and retains 0186 to give back to Sorrels…

Trask p120

0186 is given to Kelley on 11/23 who in turn gives it to FBI Bookhout to Barrett to Shanklin – HOW DOES KELLEY HAVE A COPY to give to the FBI – From Max or Sorrels? When did this transfer take place?

0187 HAS to be the copy that Philips sends to Rowley BUT THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SECOND PRINT – NOT the THIRD PRINT

How can Max forward THE THIRD PRINT 0187… when LIFE has 0183, Zapruder has 0185, MAX/KELLEY has 0186 11/22 while the FBI has 0186 on 11/23 FROM Kelley, and Sorrels IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE been given TWO PRINTS, this date?

Can anyone explain that for me?

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  • 1 month later...

Thought you might find this interesting if you haven't seen it before David.

From David Belin's "Final Disclosure" (1988, pg.182):

The person who had actually first contacted Abraham Zapruder after the assassinatinon was Dan Rather, CBS News, who after finding Zapruder, took the film and was able to have the processing of the film expedited.

Edited by Josh Cron
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  • 2 weeks later...

Thought you might find this interesting if you haven't seen it before David.

From David Belin's "Final Disclosure" (1988, pg.182):

The person who had actually first contacted Abraham Zapruder after the assassinatinon was Dan Rather, CBS News, who after finding Zapruder, took the film and was able to have the processing of the film expedited.

Thanks Josh... This is Belin quoting Rather... or relating second hand stories from those that heard Rather say so?

Mrs. Zapruder says the SS takes the film THAT NIGHT... There is no evidentary record of Rather being involved with Zap, Sorrels, Phillips or the two DPD cops that escorted them...

Does Belin offer anything to coroborrate?

DJ

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Belin gives nothing to coroborrate the story and makes no statement as to where the information came from. He simply lists the source for the entire chapter as:

...copies of correspondence that I retained and personal notes that I made during the course of my work as excecutive director of the Rockefeller Commission, personal correspondence with Time magazine and PBS, and copies of the formal statement I made on November 22, 1975, formally requesting that Congress reopen the Warren Commission investagation.

He does, however, state that he spoke with Rather in 1988 regarding the returning of the Z-film to the Zapruder family.

Edited by Josh Cron
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Thanks Josh... interesting.

I am of the opinion that copy #184, the missing copy, was of the original film and ultimately becomes the basis for the existing copies... this MAY be the copy Max refers to that is sent to DC, or is taken directly to Hawkeye which becomes the "original" SS agent Bill Smith delivers to NPIC.

I am suprised this hasn't gotten more attention... Max referring to Zapruder's as the "master" as opposed to the "original" is also interesting to me.

If it was not #184, then at some point the in camera original is altered and duplicated onto K2 film stock and PRESENTED as the original, while the actual original is ???

DJ

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  • 7 months later...

Bump....

In light of our understanding the zfilm we have was not the one that comes out of Z's camera... shouldn't we be concentrating our efforts on uncovering WHERE/HOW this film was changed?

I can't discuss Salandria's minutia with Fetz any longer... he's so wrapped up in the micro detail he can't see straight.

But I can ask the rest to address the FACT - via Zavada - that the extant Zfilm has no 0183 imprinted in the assassination sequence, only the SS copies of it.

If Jamieson created copy 0184, which they'd have had to, THIS is the film used to create the duplicate "copies" at NPIC AFTER it was altered at Hawkeye.

0183 gets xferred to SS copies.... supposedly... yet is not on the original... Isn't that end of story here?

Cheers

DJ

Can the theory be proven wrong?

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I must be missing something Robin... what do 3-16mm B&W copies have to do with replacing the color original with an altered 0184?

The SS copies are of the altered film... they HAVE to be - correct? and they replace the Jamison copies of what should be the complete 0183.

There are a few mentions in the Z timeline where A FILM was shown both on 11/22 and 11/23... yet do you know if there has ever been anything said about what was SEEN during thiese showings other that Rather's?

Like CE399, the zfilm in existance SEEMS to have come into being via the film Philips sends to Rowley Friday night.

Those in the room with Zap Saturday morn to see the Zfilm... any of them be counted upon to tell the truth about what they saw?

DJ

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let me guess... "Since the SS copies have 0183 and they were a first gen copy of the z film original... the original 0183 on the motorcade portion not being there is simply a mystery that cannot be addressed with the evidence available"

from his report:

Films studied - Zapruder "out of the Camera" Original

"an 8mm movie that HAD.... number 0183 in 1963" (see Section 3)

Section 3 - "the records at NARA provide REASONABLE ASSURANCES of the treaceablility of copies SS 1 & 2"

"Further, because we have not been able to view and compare the first gen Life Mag copy with the SS copies or Zap the original, our analysis is constrained and limited."

Part 1a:

PROCESSED BY KODAK: "No processing labratory edge print was seen on the motorcade section of the film we examined".... "did appear on the family scenes half"

but are on the selected frames of CE885 taken from the original...

Why is there even a question of authenticity at this point? the only section of the film in the archives that does not have the processing characteristics is the motorcade assassination sequence.

What argument is there in FAVOR of this still being "original"? Am I once agian missing something here boys and girls? Zavada's analysis is of the altered film.

End of story

Edited by David Josephs
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This interesting topic is somewhat 'inaccessible' as its not about what we see, which anyone can take a stab at.

Could someone post a brief summary of what we know about the where and when of the z-film and its copies bearing in mind I (and others) may be familiar with Zapruder but many of the other names and abbreviations are new. A graphical illustration, such as a family tree and or a timeline would be really helpful here and may help to highlight where the gaps are.

I don't want appear lazy. I could go the long way round, google every single name and premise mentioned but that's a lot of work just to get to grips with facts required to properly understand this thread.

I'm not going to be able to contribute to this discussion any time soon but I'm interested and really want to understand the thread.

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Hey there Lindsay... I actually used the referenced timeline in compiling the following. In addition to some other sources not so entirely skewed toward WCR compliancy. You will notice that 6th floor's does not even mention the name MAX PHILIPS, a man who not only handled a film but tells us who has which film at the time.

CD - 87 Folder 1

CO2 34030 11/22

9:55

To: Chief Rowley

From: Max D. Phillips

Subject: 8mm movie film showing President

Kennedy being shot

Enclosed is an 8mm movie film

taken by Mr. A. Zapruder, 501 Elm St., Dallas

Texas (RI8-6071)

Mr.. Zapruder was photographing

the President at the instant he was shot.

According to Mr. Zapruder, the position of

the assassin was behind Mr. Zapruder.

Note: Disregard personnel scenes

shown on Mr. Zapruder’s film.. Mr. Zapruder

is in custody of the "master" film. Two prints

were given to SAIC Sorrels, this date.

The third print is forwarded.

Max D. Phillips

Special Agent - PRS

It also neglects to mention the two DPD men that take Zap around that afternoon or why they think they are on "special assignment" with Sorrells

http://jfklancer.com...Chronology.html

2:21 pm

 

DPD officer Osborn tells dispatcher that he and Officer J.B. Jones are on “special assignment” with Sorrels

17H 428, 480; 23H 885

2:45 pm

 

Osborn & Jones drive Zapruder party to Kodak, arriving before 3 pm.

Trask, 106; Wrone, 21; Zavada Report, Study 1

You would be hard pressed to find much info on these two. O.A. Jones, Capt... yes... yet there is NOTHING in the Dallas Archives Index attributed to these men. If anyone has anything from them describing thier activities with Zapruder... please post.

http://www.jfk-info.com/thomp2.htm This is what I mean... the other timelines do not address 15-18 viewers of the film on 11/22. They have Phil Chamberlain checking it out with "Kodak employees". Has anyone bothered to find out what these 15-18 people saw? or who they were?

3:15 pm (est.)

The processed film is shown to fifteen to eighteen people. To have copies made, Zapruder must take camera original to Jamieson Company.

The graphic below is to be torn apart... if incorrect please say so... if missing someting of importance, the same.

It is my contention that Zap filmed the motorcade scene in slow motion with the click of a switch on the camera thereby creating 4 times the number of frames per inch than standard and giving alterationists more than enough "info" to change without it affecting the "agreed upon" rate of 18.3.

Now the crown jewel. imo. the NPIC analysis of frames that LIFE had already determined as containing shots.... and the question on page 1 of CIA450:

"from the

8 .m film how do

They know exact

frames of 1st and

2nd shot?"

How? they didn't know... and Chris D has helped me understand the math used to work backward to come to these frames... three shots... three frames... end of story.

I hope this puts the subject, and my efforts therein, into perspective

Cheers

DJ

post-1587-0-44745700-1362674005_thumb.jpg

post-1587-0-80736800-1362675242_thumb.jpg

Edited by David Josephs
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You will please notice that NONE of the shots were seen to take place at z223... in the scenarios listed... WHEN/WHERE would the SBT be placed?

Here is a composite of ALL the frames NPIC suggests may have contained a shot...

Were they watching the same film?

post-1587-0-06271600-1362675977_thumb.jpg

Edited by David Josephs
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