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I count FOUR copies and the original Zfilm on 11/22


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http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19073entry268637 (attachments at bottom)

Hey there Lindsay... I actually used the referenced timeline in compiling the following. In addition to some other sources not so entirely skewed toward WCR compliancy. You will notice that 6th floor's does not even mention the name MAX PHILIPS, a man who not only handled a film but tells us who has which film at the time.

CD - 87 Folder 1

CO2 34030 11/22

9:55

To: Chief Rowley

From: Max D. Phillips

Subject: 8mm movie film showing President

Kennedy being shot

Enclosed is an 8mm movie film

taken by Mr. A. Zapruder, 501 Elm St., Dallas

Texas (RI8-6071)

Mr.. Zapruder was photographing

the President at the instant he was shot.

According to Mr. Zapruder, the position of

the assassin was behind Mr. Zapruder.

Note: Disregard personnel scenes

shown on Mr. Zapruder’s film.. Mr. Zapruder

is in custody of the "master" film. Two prints

were given to SAIC Sorrels, this date.

The third print is forwarded.

Max D. Phillips

Special Agent - PRS

It also neglects to mention the two DPD men that take Zap around that afternoon or why they think they are on "special assignment" with Sorrells

http://jfklancer.com...Chronology.html

2:21 pm

DPD officer Osborn tells dispatcher that he and Officer J.B. Jones are on “special assignment” with Sorrels

17H 428, 480; 23H 885

2:45 pm

Osborn & Jones drive Zapruder party to Kodak, arriving before 3 pm.

Trask, 106; Wrone, 21; Zavada Report, Study 1

You would be hard pressed to find much info on these two. O.A. Jones, Capt... yes... yet there is NOTHING in the Dallas Archives Index attributed to these men. If anyone has anything from them describing thier activities with Zapruder... please post.

http://www.jfk-info.com/thomp2.htm This is what I mean... the other timelines do not address 15-18 viewers of the film on 11/22. They have Phil Chamberlain checking it out with "Kodak employees". Has anyone bothered to find out what these 15-18 people saw? or who they were?

3:15 pm (est.)

The processed film is shown to fifteen to eighteen people. To have copies made, Zapruder must take camera original to Jamieson Company.

The graphic below is to be torn apart... if incorrect please say so... if missing someting of importance, the same.

It is my contention that Zap filmed the motorcade scene in slow motion with the click of a switch on the camera thereby creating 4 times the number of frames per inch than standard and giving alterationists more than enough "info" to change without it affecting the "agreed upon" rate of 18.3.

Now the crown jewel. imo. the NPIC analysis of frames that LIFE had already determined as containing shots.... and the question on page 1 of CIA450:

"from the

8 .m film how do

They know exact

frames of 1st and

2nd shot?"

How? they didn't know... and Chris D has helped me understand the math used to work backward to come to these frames... three shots... three frames... end of story.

I hope this puts the subject, and my efforts therein, into perspective

Cheers

DJ

Edited by David Josephs
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Thanks David for taking time to explain in more detail -

I will need to read and read again taking each point in turn to understand your post in its entirety but that is no bad thing and I will no doubt be back with more questions / comment.

For now though:

The suggestion that Zapruder filmed in slow motion is interesting - but for this to be true Zavada's examination and the report for the ARRB would have had to have been compromised - was Zavada duped into thinking he was examining the original or what?

Re the frame timings for the 1st and 2nd shot - I think I understand what you are saying but not the wider implications of the timing having been decided by working back mathematically. You describe this as the crown jewel but I don't understand why this is especially significant.

Edited by Lindsay Anderson
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My pleasure Lindsay...

It is my contention that the "original" - 0183, and 0184, were identical copies and that by 9am Saturday the "original" film was no longer involved in the process. This new "original" was indeed at 18.3fps and created from both 0183/0184 in the possession of the CIA/SS that night.

Zavada and the world only ever got to see the alteration. The meeting with McCone et al on Sat morn at the WH may have included more detail of the assassiantion from these films.

----

Regarding this crown jewel, CIA450 and their puzzlement over how LIFE could know when the first & second shot were....

Only z312/313 is universally accepted as the LAST SHOT. Everything hinges on that being correct... yet the speed legend related to the frames and locations on Elm do not work.

What we see is a smooth running limo down Elm after what many saw as a turn that almost hit people on the north curb of Elm...

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.

Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb?

Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.

If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here.

If we accept that z313 is the last shot...

using the math that took me quite a while to grasp shows why z133 is when we see the limo appear, what is so special about 161-166, why z224 is not mentioned as showing a shot,

why Altgens tells us he was 15 feet from JFK at the time of the shot (z345, not z313), why Hudson on the steps tells us a shot was fired while the limo was right in front of him, and why/how these frames and time measurements work with the only other films that can be used to time sync Zapruder.

As you continue to explore... the frame ratios, the distances and speeds all play a crucial part of the charade.

Mr. LIEBELER - And it proceeded then down Elm Street toward the triple underpass; is that correct?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - That's correct. I started shooting--when the motorcade started coming in, I believe I started and wanted to get it coming in from Houston Street.

Sitzman: Yes. Well, he stood up there, and he asked me to come up and stand behind him, 'cause when he takes the pictures looking through the telescopic lens, he might get dizzy, and he wanted me to stand behind him, so in case he got dizzy I could hold onto him. so I got up behind him, and we saw the motorcade turn the corner at Main onto Houston. He hadn't started taking the pictures there then, and we watched them as they came down Houston; and just as the motorcycles that were leading the parade came ... started ... came around the corner and started down the hill, he started taking the pictures then.

He never stopped filming Lindsay... and the attached shows that the restart frame z133 does not have the telltale start-up signatures... it just STARTS

Other than Towner, there is no film or photo of the limo rounding Elm/Houston. Her film speed was also arbitrary, AND we have the 6 frame splice in the midst of the turn.

Nix and Muchmore pick up later on Elm. and if you search, we can also see that it is physically impossible for a man (Hill) to get from one vehicle to the next while both are supposedly traveling in excess of 8mph. He needs to jump down, run and catch the limo while both vehicles are moving... yet if you see what we've posted... he does so in amazingly few steps...

The limo had slowed to a crawl of less than 2mph... maybe not stopped - although many say it did - and the testimony of Kellerman is revealing as to when Hill actually gets to the limo...

Hill is on the limo when the car accelerated... the limo accelerated at the time the flurry of shots arrived.... the acceleration happens between the 2nd and 3rd shots (what happened to the flurry?).

Was Hill already on the vechicle when z313, the "third" shot occurred? only if it happened further down the street, after the limo stopped and Hill had a chance to climb on....

Mr. SPECTER. At that time you looked back and saw Special Agent Hill across the trunk of the car, had your automobile accelerated by that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Tremendously so; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, to the best of your ability to recollect, exactly when did your automobile first accelerate?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time-at the time--this flurry of shots came into it.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration--

Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot

post-1587-0-81561800-1362714430_thumb.jpg

Edited by David Josephs
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My pleasure Lindsay...

It is my contention that the "original" - 0183, and 0184, were identical copies and that by 9am Saturday the "original" film was no longer involved in the process. This new "original" was indeed at 18.3fps and created from both 0183/0184 in the possession of the CIA/SS that night.

Zavada and the world only ever got to see the alteration. The meeting with McCone et al on Sat morn at the WH may have included more detail of the assassiantion from these films.

----

Regarding this crown jewel, CIA450 and their puzzlement over how LIFE could know when the first & second shot were....

Only z312/313 is universally accepted as the LAST SHOT. Everything hinges on that being correct... yet the speed legend related to the frames and locations on Elm do not work.

What we see is a smooth running limo down Elm after what many saw as a turn that almost hit people on the north curb of Elm...

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.

Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb?

Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.

If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here.

If we accept that z313 is the last shot...

using the math that took me quite a while to grasp shows why z133 is when we see the limo appear, what is so special about 161-166, why z224 is not mentioned as showing a shot,

why Altgens tells us he was 15 feet from JFK at the time of the shot (z345, not z313), why Hudson on the steps tells us a shot was fired while the limo was right in front of him, and why/how these frames and time measurements work with the only other films that can be used to time sync Zapruder.

As you continue to explore... the frame ratios, the distances and speeds all play a crucial part of the charade.

Mr. LIEBELER - And it proceeded then down Elm Street toward the triple underpass; is that correct?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - That's correct. I started shooting--when the motorcade started coming in, I believe I started and wanted to get it coming in from Houston Street.

Sitzman: Yes. Well, he stood up there, and he asked me to come up and stand behind him, 'cause when he takes the pictures looking through the telescopic lens, he might get dizzy, and he wanted me to stand behind him, so in case he got dizzy I could hold onto him. so I got up behind him, and we saw the motorcade turn the corner at Main onto Houston. He hadn't started taking the pictures there then, and we watched them as they came down Houston; and just as the motorcycles that were leading the parade came ... started ... came around the corner and started down the hill, he started taking the pictures then.

He never stopped filming Lindsay... and the attached shows that the restart frame z133 does not have the telltale start-up signatures... it just STARTS

Other than Towner, there is no film or photo of the limo rounding Elm/Houston. Her film speed was also arbitrary, AND we have the 6 frame splice in the midst of the turn.

Nix and Muchmore pick up later on Elm. and if you search, we can also see that it is physically impossible for a man (Hill) to get from one vehicle to the next while both are supposedly traveling in excess of 8mph. He needs to jump down, run and catch the limo while both vehicles are moving... yet if you see what we've posted... he does so in amazingly few steps...

The limo had slowed to a crawl of less than 2mph... maybe not stopped - although many say it did - and the testimony of Kellerman is revealing as to when Hill actually gets to the limo...

Hill is on the limo when the car accelerated... the limo accelerated at the time the flurry of shots arrived.... the acceleration happens between the 2nd and 3rd shots (what happened to the flurry?).

Was Hill already on the vechicle when z313, the "third" shot occurred? only if it happened further down the street, after the limo stopped and Hill had a chance to climb on....

Mr. SPECTER. At that time you looked back and saw Special Agent Hill across the trunk of the car, had your automobile accelerated by that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Tremendously so; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, to the best of your ability to recollect, exactly when did your automobile first accelerate?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time-at the time--this flurry of shots came into it.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration--

Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot

What a steaming pile....

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Er.. thanks Craig

My original post here was to ask for some help by way of background info so that I could better understand this thread - I find the subject of the thread interesting but there is a steeper learning curve than with some of the other threads I'm reading.

I asked -

"could someone post a brief summary of what we know about the where and when of the z-film and its copies bearing in mind I (and others) may be familiar with Zapruder but many of the other names and abbreviations are new. A graphical illustration, such as a family tree and or a timeline would be really helpful here and may help to highlight where the gaps are"

Are you able to help me with this? David's response to me included a timeline he is working on and also external links that deal with the issue.

Have you done any work on this that you are willing to share?

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Er.. thanks Craig

My original post here was to ask for some help by way of background info so that I could better understand this thread - I find the subject of the thread interesting but there is a steeper learning curve than with some of the other threads I'm reading.

I asked -

"could someone post a brief summary of what we know about the where and when of the z-film and its copies bearing in mind I (and others) may be familiar with Zapruder but many of the other names and abbreviations are new. A graphical illustration, such as a family tree and or a timeline would be really helpful here and may help to highlight where the gaps are"

Are you able to help me with this? David's response to me included a timeline he is working on and also external links that deal with the issue.

Have you done any work on this that you are willing to share?

search is your friend. There are countless threads on this subject alone this forum. Homework.....

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David - could you further unpack the following for me please, there is a lot going on here!

If we accept that z313 is the last shot...

using the math that took me quite a while to grasp shows why z133 is when we see the limo appear, what is so special about 161-166, why z224 is not mentioned as showing a shot,

why Altgens tells us he was 15 feet from JFK at the time of the shot (z345, not z313), why Hudson on the steps tells us a shot was fired while the limo was right in front of him, and why/how these frames and time measurements work with the only other films that can be used to time sync Zapruder.

You say that using the math shows

  • why z133 is when we see the limo appear,
  • what is so special about 161-166,
  • why z224 is not mentioned as showing a shot,
  • why Altgens tells us he was 15 feet from JFK at the time of the shot (z345, not z313),
  • why Hudson on the steps tells us a shot was fired while the limo was right in front of him,
  • why/how these frames and time measurements work with the only other films that can be used to time sync Zapruder.

Am I breaking down that paragraph of your post correctly?

Is the math something that I (with a bit of work) can do and will the results of the math show all of the above?

Are you able expand on each of the above points or are they just self evident once I run the math,

Also

He never stopped filming Lindsay... and the attached shows that the restart frame z133 does not have the telltale start-up signatures... it just STARTS

I hadn't ever considered whether the Zapruder images I'm familiar with included any stop starts, I just always thought it was one continuous shot.

Why do you say z133 is a restart frame and what are the 'telltale start-up signatures' that should be there and are missing?

Edit - OK so Ive taken a look a zapruder again and yes, there is a cut or restart when the limo first appears and you are saying that as that and the following frame does not have the brightness effect, that it has to be a splice, not a restart. Seems a fairly obvious conclusion to make - what are the arguments against?

Edited by Lindsay Anderson
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yes there is indeed a lot going on.... but I'm going to have to agree with CL here... SEARCH. Include "Chris Davidson", "Tom Purvis", "Survey" "Drommer plat" and "Math" in your searches.

Once the alteration is no longer a question (like conspiracy/cover-up) in your mind, as it has in mine... HOW becomes the next task. I can't give you the Reader's Digest version of years of work on this.

A hint though... distance and time are related to frames per second. If the limo is moving 1 foot per frame, this equates to the limo's speed IF we accept 18.3fps. If the distances covered do not reveal a steady rate of speed - which they dont - and speed up/slow down is included as they are in real world events - the information offered us by the WCR proves what we see is not what occurred. IE the transition to 207-208 jumping from 12 to over 28mph and then back down again or the jump in 171 from 3.74 to over 17mph...

Lamson will stomp and scream and misdirect and whine alot, but will never refute. He does not understand the math or the analysis and his only purpose is to xxxxx....

If he had soemthing to offer... believe me he would, he never shuts up about his 3 little inches... but a simple search will prove time and again he has little to say on this subject other than adhoms.

You recap of what the math shows in question form is interesting... the MATH helps explain how what we see and what has been offered as evidence, was created and/or supported.

Purvissurveydata.jpg

On 3/8/2013 at 11:56 AM, Lindsay Anderson said:

David - could you further unpack the following for me please, there is a lot going on here!

On 3/7/2013 at 7:47 PM, David Josephs said:

If we accept that z313 is the last shot...

using the math that took me quite a while to grasp shows why z133 is when we see the limo appear, what is so special about 161-166, why z224 is not mentioned as showing a shot,

why Altgens tells us he was 15 feet from JFK at the time of the shot (z345, not z313), why Hudson on the steps tells us a shot was fired while the limo was right in front of him, and why/how these frames and time measurements work with the only other films that can be used to time sync Zapruder.

You say that using the math shows

  • why z133 is when we see the limo appear,
  • what is so special about 161-166,
  • why z224 is not mentioned as showing a shot,
  • why Altgens tells us he was 15 feet from JFK at the time of the shot (z345, not z313),
  • why Hudson on the steps tells us a shot was fired while the limo was right in front of him,
  • why/how these frames and time measurements work with the only other films that can be used to time sync Zapruder.

Am I breaking down that paragraph of your post correctly?

Is the math something that I (with a bit of work) can do and will the results of the math show all of the above?

Are you able expand on each of the above points or are they just self evident once I run the math,

Also

On 3/7/2013 at 7:47 PM, David Josephs said:

He never stopped filming Lindsay... and the attached shows that the restart frame z133 does not have the telltale start-up signatures... it just STARTS

I hadn't ever considered whether the Zapruder images I'm familiar with included any stop starts, I just always thought it was one continuous shot.

Why do you say z133 is a restart frame and what are the 'telltale start-up signatures' that should be there and are missing?

I posted an image that clearly shows the difference between a start-up frame - Z001 - and one that is not - z133. I also include testimony that substantiates Z filming the motorcade without stopping.

I'm at a loss for how that is not clear in my post....

Please take some time and do some diligence. If you grasp the math first time thru... wonderful, let me know. But it will be up to you to connect the dots...

Curious... are you a long time student of the case... just dabbling right now... are you aware of the Altgens/Hudson references made and just addressing the MATH here...

I'm a bit perplexed ??

Mr. LIEBELER - Now, the thing that is troubling me, though, Mr. Altgens, is that you say the car was 30 feet away at the time you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and that is the time at which the first shot was fired?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And that it was 15 feet away at the time the third shot was fired.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - But during that period of time the car moved much more than 15 feet down Elm Street going down toward the triple underpass?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head.

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it.

Mr. LIEBELER - But it was almost directly in front of you as it went down the street; isn't that right?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes.

post-1587-0-84627800-1362778639_thumb.jpg

Edited by David Josephs
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I'm writing a more detailed reply (which I had almost completed, then lost!)

But regarding the the Splice:

Your reply crossed with an edit to my post where I said I can see what you are saying, and yes a splice seems an obvious conclusion.

So obvious that I wonder what arguments there are against this?

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Can't tell you how many times I've lost posts... So much so I now copy them into a word doc during the course of composing - especially long ones - so I have something to copy/paste back. Or I simply compose the response in word and do the same....

Zavada claims there is a small % of lightness difference... Problem being the stop/starts on the family side of the film all have this telltale LIGHTENING of the first few frames.

I look forward to your reply.... yet please do not forgo the title of the thread... 0184 or another copy is mentioned in and among those with copies of this thing...

and it seems to have been sent to Rowley by Phillips on 11/22

DJ

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Please take some time and do some diligence. If you grasp the math first time thru... wonderful, let me know. But it will be up to you to connect the dots...

Curious... are you a long time student of the case... just dabbling right now... are you aware of the Altgens/Hudson references made and just addressing the MATH here...

I'm a bit perplexed ??

I've been reading the forum for 4 years or so but its only now as a member that I am able to see some of the images and ask questions, some of which have puzzled me for a while. From a scale of 1 (just dabbling right now) to 10 (long time student of the case) I would say I am maybe at or around 4. However, I am aware that the journey from 4 to 7 will be much tougher then that from 1 to 4 and, I do feel that as my knowledge increases, so will my awareness of what there is still to learn.

I am familiar with Altgens as I have posted on the recent threads regarding the identity of Doorman in Altgens6. I understand this was one of a series of (Altgens) photos and that we can identify the timing of photo evidence against individual Zapruder frames. I haven't started that study though and I'm not yet familiar with Hudson.

Please read my bio for more on my interest in the case and my approach to the forum. I can assure you I am not a xxxxx and I am keeping very busy working through the threads I have contributed to and all responses to my posts. I hope not to challenge for challenge sake, but to better understand the arguments presented.

BTW - I've not had the chance to really digest Craig's work, but generally I don't want to discount plausible theories and research from anyone simply because the person advocating them does so in a way that I feel may be unhelpful to constructive debate. I hope to maintain this 'openness' but I can see it could become difficult in the event of personal attack.

Having said that - I did find this very funny

If he had soemthing to offer... believe me he would, he never shuts up about his 3 little inches..

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FWIW the math took me a while to understand and visualize... and I majored in math/finance....

when I have more time I will find and help explain what I understand in that area... search first though

Proving a 4th copy I think is more than enough of a task at this point...

The Doorman issue is an insult to the intelligence.... not so much the notion, but the manner inwhich a well respected researcher butchers simple things like probability and corroboration...

(he uses Fritz's notes to claim Oswald said he was out there yet dismisses info on the same page of notes that says Oswald changed clothes when he got home.... how does comparing a shirt Oswald had not yet been wearing to an image taken in DP while claiming that is the shirt we see... ??)

I come to no conclusions about ANYONE until they start posting... in this world you are what you write and what you can authenticate....

I appreciate your interest and questions... Hopefully it will help others see as well...

re: Craig... if he had the littlest bit of class and ability he would simply address the issue, not the messenger.

whenever he comes adhomming into a thread - no matter whose - I know we are on the right track.

"digestion" may be tough with all that grissle, but have at it... his 3 little inches argument is good for a chuckle... given it has little to do with what occurs.... you can choke that one down on your own... the thread is right here on EF somewhere

DJ

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  • 1 month later...

-

My pleasure Lindsay...

It is my contention that the "original" - 0183, and 0184, were identical copies and that by 9am Saturday the "original" film was no longer involved in the process. This new "original" was indeed at 18.3fps and created from both 0183/0184 in the possession of the CIA/SS that night.

Zavada and the world only ever got to see the alteration. The meeting with McCone et al on Sat morn at the WH may have included more detail of the assassiantion from these films.

----

Regarding this crown jewel, CIA450 and their puzzlement over how LIFE could know when the first & second shot were....

Only z312/313 is universally accepted as the LAST SHOT. Everything hinges on that being correct... yet the speed legend related to the frames and locations on Elm do not work.

What we see is a smooth running limo down Elm after what many saw as a turn that almost hit people on the north curb of Elm...

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.

Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb?

Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.

If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here.

If we accept that z313 is the last shot...

using the math that took me quite a while to grasp shows why z133 is when we see the limo appear, what is so special about 161-166, why z224 is not mentioned as showing a shot,

why Altgens tells us he was 15 feet from JFK at the time of the shot (z345, not z313), why Hudson on the steps tells us a shot was fired while the limo was right in front of him, and why/how these frames and time measurements work with the only other films that can be used to time sync Zapruder.

As you continue to explore... the frame ratios, the distances and speeds all play a crucial part of the charade.

Mr. LIEBELER - And it proceeded then down Elm Street toward the triple underpass; is that correct?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - That's correct. I started shooting--when the motorcade started coming in, I believe I started and wanted to get it coming in from Houston Street.

Sitzman: Yes. Well, he stood up there, and he asked me to come up and stand behind him, 'cause when he takes the pictures looking through the telescopic lens, he might get dizzy, and he wanted me to stand behind him, so in case he got dizzy I could hold onto him. so I got up behind him, and we saw the motorcade turn the corner at Main onto Houston. He hadn't started taking the pictures there then, and we watched them as they came down Houston; and just as the motorcycles that were leading the parade came ... started ... came around the corner and started down the hill, he started taking the pictures then.

He never stopped filming Lindsay... and the attached shows that the restart frame z133 does not have the telltale start-up signatures... it just STARTS

Other than Towner, there is no film or photo of the limo rounding Elm/Houston. Her film speed was also arbitrary, AND we have the 6 frame splice in the midst of the turn.

Nix and Muchmore pick up later on Elm. and if you search, we can also see that it is physically impossible for a man (Hill) to get from one vehicle to the next while both are supposedly traveling in excess of 8mph. He needs to jump down, run and catch the limo while both vehicles are moving... yet if you see what we've posted... he does so in amazingly few steps...

The limo had slowed to a crawl of less than 2mph... maybe not stopped - although many say it did - and the testimony of Kellerman is revealing as to when Hill actually gets to the limo...

Hill is on the limo when the car accelerated... the limo accelerated at the time the flurry of shots arrived.... the acceleration happens between the 2nd and 3rd shots (what happened to the flurry?).

Was Hill already on the vechicle when z313, the "third" shot occurred? only if it happened further down the street, after the limo stopped and Hill had a chance to climb on....

Mr. SPECTER. At that time you looked back and saw Special Agent Hill across the trunk of the car, had your automobile accelerated by that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Tremendously so; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, to the best of your ability to recollect, exactly when did your automobile first accelerate?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time-at the time--this flurry of shots came into it.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration--

Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot

My pleasure Lindsay...

It is my contention that the "original" - 0183, and 0184, were identical copies and that by 9am Saturday the "original" film was no longer involved in the process. This new "original" was indeed at 18.3fps and created from both 0183/0184 in the possession of the CIA/SS that night.

Zavada and the world only ever got to see the alteration. The meeting with McCone et al on Sat morn at the WH may have included more detail of the assassiantion from these films.

----

Regarding this crown jewel, CIA450 and their puzzlement over how LIFE could know when the first & second shot were....

Only z312/313 is universally accepted as the LAST SHOT. Everything hinges on that being correct... yet the speed legend related to the frames and locations on Elm do not work.

What we see is a smooth running limo down Elm after what many saw as a turn that almost hit people on the north curb of Elm...

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.

Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb?

Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.

If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here.

If we accept that z313 is the last shot...

using the math that took me quite a while to grasp shows why z133 is when we see the limo appear, what is so special about 161-166, why z224 is not mentioned as showing a shot,

why Altgens tells us he was 15 feet from JFK at the time of the shot (z345, not z313), why Hudson on the steps tells us a shot was fired while the limo was right in front of him, and why/how these frames and time measurements work with the only other films that can be used to time sync Zapruder.

As you continue to explore... the frame ratios, the distances and speeds all play a crucial part of the charade.

Mr. LIEBELER - And it proceeded then down Elm Street toward the triple underpass; is that correct?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - That's correct. I started shooting--when the motorcade started coming in, I believe I started and wanted to get it coming in from Houston Street.

Sitzman: Yes. Well, he stood up there, and he asked me to come up and stand behind him, 'cause when he takes the pictures looking through the telescopic lens, he might get dizzy, and he wanted me to stand behind him, so in case he got dizzy I could hold onto him. so I got up behind him, and we saw the motorcade turn the corner at Main onto Houston. He hadn't started taking the pictures there then, and we watched them as they came down Houston; and just as the motorcycles that were leading the parade came ... started ... came around the corner and started down the hill, he started taking the pictures then.

He never stopped filming Lindsay... and the attached shows that the restart frame z133 does not have the telltale start-up signatures... it just STARTS

Other than Towner, there is no film or photo of the limo rounding Elm/Houston. Her film speed was also arbitrary, AND we have the 6 frame splice in the midst of the turn.

Nix and Muchmore pick up later on Elm. and if you search, we can also see that it is physically impossible for a man (Hill) to get from one vehicle to the next while both are supposedly traveling in excess of 8mph. He needs to jump down, run and catch the limo while both vehicles are moving... yet if you see what we've posted... he does so in amazingly few steps...

The limo had slowed to a crawl of less than 2mph... maybe not stopped - although many say it did - and the testimony of Kellerman is revealing as to when Hill actually gets to the limo...

[/Quote]

I tried very hard to search for a thread about the "Other" film. As the Zap film and others are mentioned in this post, I decided to ask my question here.

Question: In all the years I've been active regarding Kennedy, I never heard this question ever asked or answered: Did the Other film, HL Hunt's film, have a soundtrack?

Kathy C

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