If Oswald Was an Intelligence Agent of Some Sort, How Was He Manipulated Into Being a Patsy?

[Thomas Graves]

For example, did he think he was working on a drug smuggling or a gun running case at the TSBD? Or something else?

Any thoughts?

--Tommy

Edited June 5, 2012 by Thomas Graves

[Larry Hancock]

Tommy, Oswald was being used as an intelligence dangle by both CIA and FBI, he was dangled in front of many types of people in New Orleans, in Mexico City and in Dallas....that included a variety of folks on both sides of the Cuban scene - anti Castro folks and pro Castro double agents. There is evidence of him providing information directly to the FBI and other indications that he was being monitored at more of a distance and in a very compartmentalized fashion by CIA officers.

Eventually, in Dallas, he continued to be dangled in front of the same types of folks and in that role was a perfect, unwitting, patsy, since he had no real mission other than to maintain those sorts of contacts - observation and monitoring was left to the pros. He was quite literally hijacked by the conspiracy. He was also impersonated as part of the set up - if you look closely you find per-assassination appearances at a number of locations up and down Main street as well as out by the Trade Mart. If he had not been at the TSBD, he could have been set up elsewhere.

Of course this is the sort of question that's impossible to deal with in any detail on forums - but since you asked - Oswald was there because it was convenient to his role - and once he was there, the set up went into play - check the Yates impersonation story for one of the more significant part of the set up, putting him outside the TSBD with a rilfe length package and making remarks about the Carousel Cub and the possibility of someone shooting JFK when he comes to Dallas.

I'd also like to add a couple of comments that I really think are worth considering - it seems to me that we sometimes equate a good plan with tight, long range planning - when actually good operational plans evolve and allow for flexibility. And it's also tempting to look at what happened in an event and assume that it was all part of the plan - in reality, we can only know part of what happened and we have no way of knowing the total plan. I know that's probably not going to prevent anyone from driving themselves nuts trying to dope out the finite tactical details of the Dallas operation, but at least I tried...

-- Larry

Edited June 5, 2012 by Larry Hancock

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy, Oswald was being used as an intelligence dangle by both CIA and FBI, he was dangled in front of many types of people in New Orleans, in Mexico City and in Dallas....that included a variety of folks on both sides of the Cuban scene - anti Castro folks and pro Castro double agents. There is evidence of him providing information directly to the FBI and other indications that he was being monitored at more of a distance and in a very compartmentalized fashion by CIA officers.

Eventually, in Dallas, he continued to be dangled in front of the same types of folks and in that role was a perfect, unwitting, patsy, since he had no real mission other than to maintain those sorts of contacts - observation and monitoring was left to the pros. He was quite literally hijacked by the conspiracy. He was also impersonated as part of the set up - if you look closely you find per-assassination appearances at a number of locations up and down Main street as well as out by the Trade Mart. If he had not been at the TSBD, he could have been set up elsewhere.

Of course this is the sort of question that's impossible to deal with in any detail on forums - but since you asked - Oswald was there because it was convenient to his role - and once he was there, the set up went into play - check the Yates impersonation story for one of the more significant part of the set up, putting him outside the TSBD with a rilfe length package and making remarks about the Carousel Cub and the possibility of someone shooting JFK when he comes to Dallas.

I'd also like to add a couple of comments that I really think are worth considering - it seems to me that we sometimes equate a good plan with tight, long range planning - when actually good operational plans evolve and allow for flexibility. And it's also tempting to look at what happened in an event and assume that it was all part of the plan - in reality, we can only know part of what happened and we have no way of knowing the total plan. I know that's probably not going to prevent anyone from driving themselves nuts trying to dope out the finite tactical details of the Dallas operation, but at least I tried...

-- Larry

Larry,

Excelent post, Larry. Thank you. Points well-taken.

One of my litte pet theories is that LHO was working (or thought he was working) at at the TSBD for the predessor (sp?) of the Alcohol Firearms & Tobacco agency/department/bureau (too lazy to look it up at the moment) to monitor the gun running activities going on there, and that he may have been tricked into taking his rifle to work at some point as a hypothetical participant in an undercover "sting" operation...

--Thanks,

--Tommy

Edited June 6, 2012 by Thomas Graves

[David Andrews]

Tommy - If you haven't already, see Dick Russell's "The Man Who Knew Too Much" for Oswald and Richard Case Nagell "investigating" Klein's Sporting Goods, ostensibly in the wake of the Dodd Committee's gun-running pursuits. Something tells me you might have seen this, though.

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy - If you haven't already, see Dick Russell's "The Man Who Knew Too Much" for Oswald and Richard Case Nagell "investigating" Klein's Sporting Goods, ostensibly in the wake of the Dodd Committee's gun-running pursuits. Something tells me you might have seen this, though.

David,

Thanks for the timely response. Yes, TMWKTM is one of my favorite books on the assassination. In my previous post, I considered mentioning the Dodd Subcommittee, too. I'm curious to know why you put the word "investigating" in quotation marks, so I'll definitely reread that part.

Thanks,

--Tommy

Edited June 6, 2012 by Thomas Graves

[Ian Kingsbury]

Tommy

Maybe C 2766 was part of a shipment that Oswald was "given"?.

Or maybe it was one of those he was chasing?.

I believe Ellsworth (ATF ) had breakfast with Hosty .

Ian

[Larry Hancock]

Ian, there was a meeting about gun running on the morning of Nov 22 and Ellsworth was invited, Army intelligence and the DPD were all over the Terrell armory theft, Masen's involvement, the Fort Hood connection etc. Its very probable that Ruby was acting as a middleman in the armory theft and its also possible that looking for weapons trade going to the Cuban exile shoppers in Dallas was on Oswald's watch list. Fortunately we now have documents and research by some diligent folks on all this. Ellesworth was working one end via Masen and had no idea that the 112th was all over it based on informant information on Cuban exile gun prospecting in Dallas...

If you happen to have SWHT check out chapters 11 and 12 for details. Chapter 11 sort of gives the gist of it with a Ruby quote - "Cuba, the guns, New Orleans, everything!". It was all very much on Jack's mind.

-- Larry

[Paul Trejo]

Have you considered a possible connection with General Edwin Walker? Gerry Patrick Hemming claimed he saw Walker at the Lake Pontchartrain training camp for Cuban Exiles in New Orleans, where Carlos Bringuier would operate.

In my opinion, the main reason for Oswald's sojourn to New Orleans is related to the date of the trip -- fourteen days after his shooting at General Edwin Walker. (I know many people doubt Oswald's participation, but Marina testified that he did, and Bob Schmidt said he was with Oswald at the shooting.)

When, four days after the 10 April 1963 shooting, George De Mohrenschildt told his friends, the Voshinins, of his reasonable suspicion that Oswald was (one of) the shooter(s), they immediately told the FBI (according to Dick Russell in TMWKTM). That very day - which seems reasonable - the resigned General Edwin Walker learned that Oswald was his shooter (IMHO).

Walker moved into action by engaging his contacts in New Orleans (IMHO) namely, Guy Banister (another member of the Minutemen paramilitary organization) and David Ferrie. They made Oswald an offer he couldn't refuse to come to New Orleans. In less than two weeks Oswald was in New Orleans, in a menial job only a couple blocks from Guy Banister's offices.

The purpose of the New Orleans journey was to sheep-dip Oswald (IMHO), i.e. to make him appear to any official inquiry to be a Communist. To do this, Oswald was probably promised fame and fortune if he would be the assassin of Fidel Castro.

But how would Oswald get into Cuba in order to assassinate Fidel Castro? Easy, he was told; he would need street credentials as an FPCC official. FPCC officials in those days got easy and immediate access into Cuba, he was told (IMHO).

So, Oswald willingly let himself get sheep-dipped to appear to be a Communist. He started his own FPCC chapter in New Orleans (despite the contrary orders of the FPCC in New York). He faked a membership roster. He faked a fight with Carlos Bringuier, an official of the DRE and a former worker for Batista. He collaborated with Ed Butler, head of INCA propaganda ministries that were now being funded by the CIA. Together they got Oswald in the newspapers, on radio and on TV, posing as an FPCC officer (which was obviously bogus by any measure).

The next step, in the mind of Oswald, was to get into Cuba through Mexico. This proved to be much harder than he was led to believe. For one thing, Nagell confronted Oswald and told him that if he tried to get into Cuba to kill Castro, that Nagell would shoot Oswald on sight.

This terrified Oswald, naturally, and he began to have second thoughts. Oswald thought of hi-jacking a plane to Cuba instead. Marina talked him out of that idiocy. Marina also testified that Oswald just sat in the kitchen one evening, crying. In any case, Marina also said that when Oswald decided to go to Mexico, he took along with him all these newspaper clippings that proved he was a Communist and an officer in the FPCC. These were his street credentials, and he naively believed he would get into Cuba with this trivial paperwork.

Of course, it didn't work. For one thing, to avoid being killed by Nagell, Oswald evidently hired some stranger to pretend to be himself, to obtain the passage he desired. That also fell flat. Oswald was a complete failure in his mission to kill Fidel Castro. He also knew there would be consequences to pay -- but he was now completely out of money, and completely at the mercy of Banister and Ferrie and his new Dallas contacts.

I don't believe Oswald had any clue that Walker was his actual Dallas handler -- IMHO he possibly knew only about Gerry Patrick Hemming.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited June 6, 2012 by Paul Trejo

[John Dolva]

The Cuban people are not stupid. How could any reasonable person think that with a history like Oswalds he would get in to Cuba. So Oswald is stupid.?

Does anyone have an opinion of what Oswald himself wrote about the MinuteMen. If anyone has read it, Isn't that enough of a hook for people wanting to use him?

[David Andrews]

Tommy - If you haven't already, see Dick Russell's "The Man Who Knew Too Much" for Oswald and Richard Case Nagell "investigating" Klein's Sporting Goods, ostensibly in the wake of the Dodd Committee's gun-running pursuits. Something tells me you might have seen this, though.

David,

Thanks for the timely response. Yes, TMWKTM is one of my favorite books on the assassination. In my previous post, I considered mentioning the Dodd Subcommittee, too. I'm curious to know why you put the word "investigating" in quotation marks, so I'll definitely reread that part.

Thanks,

--Tommy

Russell seems to think the "investigation" was a dodge for getting the Klein's pistol mail order in Oswald's name, but I'm unclear about his evidence.

[Ian Kingsbury]

Ian, there was a meeting about gun running on the morning of Nov 22 and Ellsworth was invited, Army intelligence and the DPD were all over the Terrell armory theft, Masen's involvement, the Fort Hood connection etc. Its very probable that Ruby was acting as a middleman in the armory theft and its also possible that looking for weapons trade going to the Cuban exile shoppers in Dallas was on Oswald's watch list. Fortunately we now have documents and research by some diligent folks on all this. Ellesworth was working one end via Masen and had no idea that the 112th was all over it based on informant information on Cuban exile gun prospecting in Dallas...

If you happen to have SWHT check out chapters 11 and 12 for details. Chapter 11 sort of gives the gist of it with a Ruby quote - "Cuba, the guns, New Orleans, everything!". It was all very much on Jack's mind.

-- Larry

Thanks Larry when Colonel Jones reported Hidell arrested the 112 th

Had his back up or main file on hand to give them Oswald .

Could he have been known to the 112th as part of this gun running operation?. They did have copies of both files.

[Larry Hancock]

Ian, I've got a bunch of documents from the 112rh including everything we could find related to weapons thefts and investigations plus

the various spot reports and materials from Nov. 22.

As far as Oswald, his file with them started in their New Orleans office when one of their agents picked up a brochure from Oswald's leafleting

near a Navy ship. Their file included certain NO FBI office memos including ones speculating on Hidell and Oswald, and Hidell being an alias.

That's what seems to have triggered their communication on Oswald to Dallas. PD.

From what I've learned over time in regard to how secret the FBI keeps its informant files, I very much doubt that the 112th would have been informed if Oswald had been supplying info or even if he was being monitored as a dangle. The Bureau is very good at keeping informant files separated from "personality" files and they have multiple tiers of informant, prospective informant, etc classifications so that they can skirt the issue if asked by other agencies. Again, I would suspect that normal office files in Dallas or NO or the file that was sent Hosty would have nothing about Oswald as any class of source or informant, that would be secured in the separate counter intelligence, subversive, informant files which were compartmentalized even within the offices - which of course is exactly where the Oswald file in NO was described as found when Oswald requested an FBI agent come meet him after his arrest.

-- Larry

[Greg Parker]

Their file included certain NO FBI office memos including ones speculating on Hidell and Oswald, and Hidell being an alias.

Larry,

I'm unaware of any pre-assassination document speculating that Hidell was an Oswald alias. Are you certain about that? On what basis could such speculation even exist? Oswald never ever presented himself as "Hidell" (unless you believe the weapons purchases were by him - in which case, how did the NO FBI office know anything about it to cause such speculation?). "Hidell" was presented by Oswald in NO as being a living breathing separate person to himself. If you look at Jones' testimony, he struggles mightily to explain away how they "know" Oswald and Hidell are one and the same. You virtually have to read between the lines and ASSUME such a document existed.

That aside, you're all over this, and I'm ready for a big serving of crow if you can point me to the document - or at least confirm that yes, it did once exist.

[Larry Hancock]

Greg, I have gone though one batch of 112rh files and as you are likely aware Col Jones (who was actually not the operations officer for the 112th but rather G2, a position calling for lots of report reading) stated when interviewed that his message of November 22 relating Oswald to the Hidell name was based in 112th Oswald file documents which had been received from the its Regional office in New Orleans. The file included material from Oswald's leafleting at the WASP as well as local agent reports. I'm going to check my Lancer CD on the 112th to see if those documents are included there, they are not in my paper files - but I sent all the major documents to Lancer for production onto the CD.

It seems to me that Col. Jones based his communications of Nov. 22 simply on seeing both names in the Oswald file.

Now comes the embarrassing part, I have a distinct memory of seeing at least one memo from New Orleans where there is speculation as to whether or not Oswald and Hidell might be one and the same person, basically as a ploy (perhaps not strictly an alias). When I read it I recall thinking that somebody in NO was on the money, although it was more speculation than a firm conclusion. Unfortunately that's only a memory, its not something I wrote about and hence nothing I would have filed away in paper, simply a memory. Possibly some of the NO specialists like Jim or Joan might recall it - or perhaps its just a faulty memory of mine.

So, I won't actually dish up the crow for myself quite yet, but I'm getting the ketchup ready... Larry

Edited June 7, 2012 by Larry Hancock

[Don Jeffries]

Larry,

As always, I respect your input. I'm curious, though, as to how Oswald remaining inside the TSBD during the assassination can be reconciled with an intelligence assignment, outside of being told he was infiltrating a potential plot to kill the president?

How would his handlers have kept him away from the windows, if not the outside with the rest of the crowd, while someone he admired so much was driving by? How could they have associated anything to do with Cuba, or guns, with Oswald not being allowed to watch his idol, during perhaps the only chance he would ever have to see him in person?

The key here is how he was controlled that day. Their patsy could not show up conspicuously in any films taken during the shooting, or interact with any witnesses at the moment of the assassination. How did they stop this from happening? We must factor in the fact the motorcade was running behind schedule, too, which would have potentially altered his instructions.

I think it's important to question why Oswald remained in the building.