If Oswald Was an Intelligence Agent of Some Sort, How Was He Manipulated Into Being a Patsy?

[Thomas Graves]

...I don't think Oswald was a true left-winger because for some reason I just can't see a left-wing kid's enlisting in the Marine Corps, and trying to do so while still underage at that. That's what I call a "gung ho-ish," super patriot kind of kid. And I don't think he underwent some kind of authentic socio-economic/political transformation while in the Marines, either. I think his left-wing/socialist/Marxist performances were to establish bonifides so that people like Alan Dulles, Richard Helms, James Angleton, William Harvey, Guy Bannister, and/or David Atlee Phillips could use him in their operations. Oswald was happy to do so because it fulfilled his Walter Mitty-ish, "I led Three Lives" psychological needs to be a patriotic, Commie-busting secret agent.

Regardless, I don't see why Oswald's "political compatriots" (reactionary elements of CIA, ONI, CID, etc) would have cared who they burned to further their goals.

--Tommy

Edit: Based on the assumption that this forum encourages "thinking outside the box," how's this for a weird idea. Maybe Oswald was such a gung-ho, clever (and foolish), super patriot that he figured out a way (maybe with a little help from David Ferrie?) to get into Russia via Finland and become a free lance agent who then volunteered his services to the CIA with the hopes of becoming a paid double (or triple?) agent. And who, of course, was later manipulated by rogue elements of the CIA (Angleton?) into the JFK assassination patsy role !!

[...]

[1] The connection of the CIA in all this is their nominal bankrolling of the DRE and of Ed Butler's INCA propaganda organization. But they were funders, and it the Cuban Exiles were motivated to be their own leaders. I say the CIA was observing Oswald, nothing more (unless I see material evidence).

[2] Further, Tommy, I think your theory errs when you hastily conclude that the right-wingers didn't "care who they burned" when they made Oswald into their patsy.

[...]

Dear Paul,

1) May I suggest Oswald and the CIA by John Newman and The Man Who Knew Too Much by Dick Russell?.

2) Did I say that the right wingers didn't care whom they burned, Paul? I was a bit more specific than that, wasn't I? I said, ".......rogue elements of the CIA, ONI, CID, etc."

I suppose I should have included "of the FOI and the FBI," as well.

Warmest regards,

--Tommy

Edited May 20, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

delete; double post

Edited May 19, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

[...]

[1] The connection of the CIA in all this is their nominal bankrolling of the DRE and of Ed Butler's INCA propaganda organization. But they were funders, and it the Cuban Exiles were motivated to be their own leaders. I say the CIA was observing Oswald, nothing more (unless I see material evidence).

[2] Further, Tommy, I think your theory errs when you hastily conclude that the right-wingers didn't "care who they burned" when they made Oswald into their patsy.

[...]

Dear Paul,

1) May I suggest Oswald and the CIA by John Newman and The Man Who Knew Too Much by Dick Russell?.

2) Did I say that the right wingers didn't care whom they burned, Paul? I was a bit more specific than that, wasn't I? I said, ".......rogue elements of the CIA, ONI, CID, etc."

I suppose I should have included "of the FOI and the FBI," as well.

Warmest regards,

--Tommy

OK, Tommy, I suppose we agree on the basic issue, then. Despite nuances, Oswald was ultimately a rightist pretending to be a leftist.

I suppose that I should ask your opinion about the next level of my scenario, then.

Does it not follow, based on the material evidence, that Lee Oswald was attempting to obtain easy passage into Cuba from Mexico, using his fake FPCC credentials?

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

P.S. As for Newman's book and Russell's book, I've read them both, and I find nothing in them that contradicts my own theory. Both those authors are willing to admit when they are merely speculating -- so I don't take every word they say as Gospel.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

[1] The connection of the CIA in all this is their nominal bankrolling of the DRE and of Ed Butler's INCA propaganda organization. But they were funders, and it the Cuban Exiles were motivated to be their own leaders. I say the CIA was observing Oswald, nothing more (unless I see material evidence).

[2] Further, Tommy, I think your theory errs when you hastily conclude that the right-wingers didn't "care who they burned" when they made Oswald into their patsy.

[...]

Dear Paul,

1) May I suggest Oswald and the CIA by John Newman and The Man Who Knew Too Much by Dick Russell?.

2) Did I say that the right wingers didn't care whom they burned, Paul? I was a bit more specific than that, wasn't I? I said, ".......rogue elements of the CIA, ONI, CID, etc."

I suppose I should have included "of the FOI and the FBI," as well.

Warmest regards,

--Tommy

OK, Tommy, I suppose we agree on the basic issue, then. Despite nuances, Oswald was ultimately a rightist pretending to be a leftist.

I suppose that I should ask your opinion about the next level of my scenario, then.

Does it not follow, based on the material evidence, that Lee Oswald was attempting to obtain easy passage into Cuba from Mexico, using his fake FPCC credentials?

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

P.S. As for Newman's book and Russell's book, I've read them both, and I find nothing in them that contradicts my own theory. Both those authors are willing to admit when they are merely speculating -- so I don't take every word they say as Gospel.

Dear Paul,

Yes, Paul, if Oswald truly was in Mexico City, then I think he was there to try to get into Cuba. He may have been told by his controller(s) that he was being sent to Cuba to hit Castro, but IMHO he was really just being set up, by someone in the CIA, to look even more like a Commie and to meet unwittingly with the CIA-monitored KGB head of assassinations in the Western Hemisphere, Valery Kostikov, at the Soviet Embassy, thereby setting in place the ultimate post-assassination cover up mechanism -- the threat of a retaliatory nuclear war with the USSR, all of which made Oswald the perfect patsy in the perfect scenario...

Warmest regards,

--Tommy

Edited May 20, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Ian Kingsbury]

Tommy

Don't you think if Kostikov was indeed in Mexico that he would have been shadowed

Therefore all eyes and cameras on who tries to contact who that's what they were there for

After all .

The CIA would have loved a picture of Oswald in Mexico but alas.

I thought Harry Dean said Oswald went to Mexico to be tricked by Gabaldon

In a fake "CIA" office.

Ian

P.s.

if Kostikov was in Mexico then Atlee-Phillips would have known!.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Ian Kingsbury

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy

Don't you think if Kostikov was indeed in Mexico that he would have been shadowed

Therefore all eyes and cameras on who tries to contact who that's what they were there for

After all .

The CIA would have loved a picture of Oswald in Mexico but alas.

I thought Harry Dean said Oswald went to Mexico to be tricked by Gabaldon

In a fake "CIA" office.

Ian

P.s.

if Kostikov was in Mexico then Atlee-Phillips would have known!.

Tommy

Don't you think if Kostikov was indeed in Mexico that he would have been shadowed

Therefore all eyes and cameras on who tries to contact who that's what they were there for

After all .

The CIA would have loved a picture of Oswald in Mexico but alas.

I thought Harry Dean said Oswald went to Mexico to be tricked by Gabaldon

In a fake "CIA" office.

Ian

P.s.

if Kostikov was in Mexico then Atlee-Phillips would have known!.

Ian,

Points well taken. It's pretty amazing, isn't it, that the CIA was unable to photograph Oswald at either the Cuban Consulate or the Russian Embassy? Absolutely amazing! Just bad luck, I guess. LOL

--Tommy

Edited May 20, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

Dear Paul,

Yes, Paul, if Oswald truly was in Mexico City, then I think he was there to try to get into Cuba. He may have been told by his controller(s) that he was being sent to Cuba to hit Castro, but IMHO he was really just being set up, by someone in the CIA, to look even more like a Commie and to meet unwittingly with the CIA-monitored KGB head of assassinations in the Western Hemisphere, Valery Kostikov, at the Soviet Embassy, thereby setting in place the ultimate post-assassination cover up mechanism -- the threat of a retaliatory nuclear war with the USSR, all of which made Oswald the perfect patsy in the perfect scenario...

Warmest regards,

--Tommy

Well, Tommy, I'm glad to find agreement on a critical point of theory -- that Oswald (if he was there) was in Mexico to try to enter Cuba.

We also agree that Oswald was being set up to look more Communist -- you say it was the CIA, but I say it was Guy Banister and Edwin Walker who set him up.

My theory apparently has more material evidence -- i.e. Lee Harvey Oswald stamped the building address of Guy Banister on his FPCC flyers (544 Camp Street).

I myself doubt the theory that Kostikov was part of that scenario -- I haven't seen enough evidence that I find believable.

Now, I do accept Dick Russell's speculation on this -- that Richard Case Nagell, the double-agent, did follow Lee Oswald to Mexico. Nagell warned Oswald that if Oswald did succeed in getting passage to Cuba, that Nagell would kill him on the spot.

Nagell knew that Oswald was working with right-wing Cubans in New Orleans (though Nagell mistakenly suspected that Oswald was too naive to realize that). Nagell's cover would have been blown if he let Oswald get away with a Cuban passage. Nagell had no choice but to protect his cover.

But Nagell would have noticed Kostikov there in Mexico City, if he was there, IMHO.

Also, the part that ex-General Edwin Walker plays in the Mexico City episode involves Guy Gabaldon, Loran Hall and Larry Howard. If we fold in Sylvia Odio's testimony (and grant that Leopoldo and Angelo were really Lorenzo [Hall] and Alonzo [Howard]), then we find confirmation, i.e. that Lorenzo and Alonzo drove Lee Harvey Oswald to Mexico.

Oswald had lots of business in Mexico. He had to: (1) fail miserably to obtain passage to Cuba; and (2) meet with Guy "Gabby" Gabaldon who was posing as a fake CIA officer, in order to make arrangements to position Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas -- living alone in a room, and working at the Texas School Book Depository.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 20, 2013 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

Dear Paul,

Yes, Paul, if Oswald truly was in Mexico City, then I think he was there to try to get into Cuba. He may have been told by his controller(s) that he was being sent to Cuba to hit Castro, but IMHO he was really just being set up, by someone in the CIA, to look even more like a Commie and to meet unwittingly with the CIA-monitored KGB head of assassinations in the Western Hemisphere, Valery Kostikov, at the Soviet Embassy, thereby setting in place the ultimate post-assassination cover up mechanism -- the threat of a retaliatory nuclear war with the USSR, all of which made Oswald the perfect patsy in the perfect scenario...

Warmest regards,

--Tommy

Dear Paul,

Please comment on my comments, below.

"... Nagell would have noticed Kostikov there in Mexico City, if he was there, IMHO."

I don't mean to sound overly obtuse, Paul, but your ambiguous use of the pronoun "he" in the above sentence makes me a bit unsure whether you mean "If Kostikov was in Mexico City" or "If Nagell was in Mexico City." Since the sentence can be read either way, do please clarify.

"Oswald had lots of business in Mexico. He had to: (1) fail miserably to obtain passage to Cuba; and (2) meet with Guy "Gabby" Gabaldon who was posing as a fake CIA officer, in order to make arrangements to position Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas -- living alone in a room, and working at the Texas School Book Depository."

In your mind, on whose directions/orders was Oswald performing the first task ("to fail miserably to obtain passage to Cuba")?

Thanks,

--Tommy

PS-- Regarding Kostikov, I just found an old but interesting post by Robert Howard in a thread called "Serendipity" on the "JFK Online Seminars" part of The Educational Forum (post #48). I hope Robert doesn't mind my copying and pasting the part pertaining to Kostikov here (and editing it just a teensy-weensie bit):

" ... [T]his post concerns something that has not been covered on this thread and that is in relation to the CIA people responsible for Western Hemisphere Station Operations out of Mexico City.......

At what could be considered the nexus of the KGB/CIA interactions prior to the assassination, you will find the acronyms TUMBLEWEED, which was a FBI acronym, if I am not mistaken, and AEBURBLE.

John Newman [Oswald and the CIA] certainly is an authority on this area, and in one of his presentations on the OSWALD/CIA book [...] mentioned AE/DURBILL as a new acronym. Someone at maryferrell.org posted on the comments section a correction of sorts stating, in effect, that it was really AE/BURBLE and according to more than one document, AEBURBLE was someone named Guenther Schulz, although personally I believe it will be proven that the name is actually Guenther Schultz.

Guenther Schulz is a name that everyone interested in nailing down the rest of the story of 1963, should, at a minimum be aware of, if not trying to ascertain what his job description was, as well as what his title was .

I would suggest possibilities as to variants of his name, and the use of a ü instead of the generic u.

See:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...o?startIndex=60 [Note: I don't understand why Robert put this particular link here. Can anyone point me in the right direction on this?--TG]

[...]

The day after the assassination of President Kennedy, document 104-10419-10021 noted the following information:

' Bagley stated that he wished to point out that Kostikov, known KGB agent, is the same person who has been in touch with the bureau double-agent Guenther Schulz in the case referred to as TUMBLEWEED." " (This case relates to a double agent, Guenter Schulz, who is being operated by us against the Soviets. [...] )"

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=235964

( emphasis added by T. Graves )

Edited May 21, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

Please comment on my comments, below.

"... Nagell would have noticed Kostikov there in Mexico City, if he was there, IMHO."

I don't mean to sound overly obtuse, Paul, but your ambiguous use of the pronoun "he" in the above sentence makes me a bit unsure whether you mean "If Kostikov was in Mexico City" or "If Nagell was in Mexico City." Since the sentence can be read either way, do please clarify.

"Oswald had lots of business in Mexico. He had to: (1) fail miserably to obtain passage to Cuba; and (2) meet with Guy "Gabby" Gabaldon who was posing as a fake CIA officer, in order to make arrangements to position Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas -- living alone in a room, and working at the Texas School Book Depository."

In your mind, on whose directions/orders was Oswald performing the first task ("to fail miserably to obtain passage to Cuba")?

Thanks,

--Tommy

Tommy, I apologize for the ambiguity -- I thought I had stated clearly that Nagell followed Oswald to Mexico to kill him just in case Oswald won easy entry into Cuba.

Anyway, as for my claim that Oswald had the task of "failing miserably to obtain passage into Cuba", I really should unpack that sentence.

In my theory, Guy Banister and David Ferrie (aided by Carlos Bringuier and Ed Butler) convinced Lee Harvey Oswald that officers of the FPCC received instant, no-questions-asked entry into Cuba.

This theory is based partially on evidence by Harry Dean, who was a documented secretary of the FPCC, and Harry obtained fast entry into Cuba partly as a result of that status.

In fact, that was SOP for Cuba -- the names of officers of the American FPCC were listed at the Cuban Embassy in Mexico, and those people on the list would be expedited through. So Guy Banister told Lee Harvey Oswald the truth -- to a point.

But Guy Banister knew more than Lee Oswald. Lee Oswald also came to believe the nonsense that if he made himself infamous in New Orleans as an officer of the FPCC, by getting arrested on the streets of New Orleans for FPCC promotion, by getting his name in the papers for FPCC promotion, by appearing on the radio promoting the FPCC, and by appearing on TV for promoting the FPCC, that he could then fool the Cuban Embassy!

We know from Marina's testimony (which I accept) that Lee Harvey Oswald gathered up all his FPCC street credentials and took them with him to Mexico. I thnk the purpose was clear, namely, that Lee Harvey Oswald was completely fooled by Guy Banister.

Guy Banister knew good and well that the Cuban Embassy would never admit Lee Harvey Oswald into Cuba based on this handful of newspaper clippings! (I can practically hear Guy Banister, David Ferrie, Carlos Bringuier and Ed Butler laughing their heads off, when Oswald drove to Mexico with Lorenzo Hall and Alonzo Howard.)

Lee Harvey Oswald's task (in his own mind) was to get into Cuba and KILL FIDEL and then escape back to the USA to a hero's welcome, a parade, a big cash reward, and a chance to be elected to the office of "Prime Minister" of the USA.

Lee Harvey Oswald's task -- in the mind of Guy Banister -- was to utterly fail to get into Cuba, and return to Texas with his tail between his legs -- a failure. And more than a failure -- an indentured servant because Guy Banister found out that Lee Oswald had tried to kill Guy Banister's very good friend -- ex-General Edwin Walker. And even more than that -- Lee Harvey Oswald was now totally sheep-dipped -- he was totally framed as a Communist of a most fanatic variety -- an officer of the FPCC!

Ex-General Edwin Walker was represented in Mexico by three people -- Loran (Lorenzo) Hall, Larry (Alonzo) Howard, and their hero, Guy Gabaldon. They had lots of money from high-level JBS functionaries to be used to convince Lee Harvey Oswald that Gabaldon was a CIA Agent, and that Oswald was "hired" for a top secret mission in Dallas, Texas. He was to return there, lay low, and await further instructions.

Lee Oswald was totally fooled by Guy Banister in New Orleans, and was totally fooled by Guy Gabaldon, Loran Hall and Larry Howard in Mexico City.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

Edited June 4, 2013 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

So, I think the conclusion here is that Oswald, far from being an "Intelligence Agent," was a low-level stool pigeon for the FBI, CIA and/or ONI. He had no regular job with them. At best he performed "piece work" of $10 and $20 jobs for them, taking photographs as needed.

Thus, Lee Harvey Oswald wanted to be a CIA agent, but he never made the grade.

Further, Oswald, in trying to please better paid CIA stool pigeons like George De Mohrenschildt, found himself acting out dangerous scenarios like trying to assassinate ex-General Edwin Walker.

When this was found out by George De Mohrenschildt, who told the Voshinins, who told the FBI, Lee Harvey Oswald lost every chance he ever had of being a full-fledged employee of the US Intelligence Community.

Further, Lee Harvey Oswald became easy to frame at a that. We can trace excetly how Oswald was framed by tracing his interaction with Carlos Bringuier during the summer of 1963 in New Orleans.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Michael Griffin]

So, I think the conclusion here is that Oswald, far from being an "Intelligence Agent," was a low-level stool pigeon for the FBI, CIA and/or ONI. He had no regular job with them. At best he performed "piece work" of $10 and $20 jobs for them, taking photographs as needed.

Paul,

Are you suggesting that just anyone was selected for the 'false defector program', or are you saying that LHO traveled to Russia, by way of Finland, completely on his own initiative?

[Paul Trejo]

So, I think the conclusion here is that Oswald, far from being an "Intelligence Agent," was a low-level stool pigeon for the FBI, CIA and/or ONI. He had no regular job with them. At best he performed "piece work" of $10 and $20 jobs for them, taking photographs as needed.

Paul,

Are you suggesting that just anyone was selected for the 'false defector program', or are you saying that LHO traveled to Russia, by way of Finland, completely on his own initiative?

Michael, I find it complicated that: (1) Oswald was dishonorably discharged from the Marines; and (2) Oswald struggled for a long time to upgrade that status.

This suggests a scenario with two options. If Oswald entered a "false defector program" as a low-level spy-training mission, which was also a probationary period, then his performance in this mission would determine its outcome.

So, it is plausible that:(I) Oswald failed to perform as well as hoped -- perhaps because of taking a Russian wife or another unexpected behavior; or (ii) Oswald successfully completed his training mission, and was invited to continue another mission even deeper under-cover, which would entail a dishonorable discharge from the Marines, and a fake struggle to upgrade that status.

I find that option (ii) lacks the ring of realism. If Oswald passed the training mission, and was invited to continue another mission, it is more likely that he would have been hired as a full-time CIA (or FBI or ONI) employee. Evidently he was not hired full-time.

So, the better likelihood is that Oswald failed to complete his "Russian defector" mission satisfactorily, and he broke his probationary period. He was not hired as a full-time Intelligence agent, and he was invited to try again some other time -- when he got his act together. But struggle as he might, Lee Harvey Oswald never got his act together.

That's how it appears to me, Michael. Furthermore, as I've noted in the past, the fact that Oswald preferred double-agent scenarios made him more vulnerable, rather than more valuable, for Intelligence operations.

Hemming, Nagell and Dean all had pasts on both sides of the Cold War (quasi-double-agents) and all three of them feared that they were subject to scape-goating by one agency or another. It seems that double-agents were doubly at risk to become patsies in Intelligence skullduggery.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited June 4, 2013 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

So, I think the conclusion here is that Oswald, far from being an "Intelligence Agent," was a low-level stool pigeon for the FBI, CIA and/or ONI. He had no regular job with them. At best he performed "piece work" of $10 and $20 jobs for them, taking photographs as needed.

Paul,

Are you suggesting that just anyone was selected for the 'false defector program', or are you saying that LHO traveled to Russia, by way of Finland, completely on his own initiative?

Michael, I find it complicated that: (1) Oswald was dishonorably discharged from the Marines; and (2) Oswald struggled for a long time to upgrade that status.

This suggests a scenario with two options. If Oswald entered a "false defector program" as a low-level spy-training mission, which was also a probationary period, then his performance in this mission would determine its outcome.

So, it is plausible that:(I) Oswald failed to perform as well as hoped -- perhaps because of taking a Russian wife or another unexpected behavior; or (ii) Oswald successfully completed his training mission, and was invited to continue another mission even deeper under-cover, which would entail a dishonorable discharge from the Marines, and a fake struggle to upgrade that status.

I find that option (ii) lacks the ring of realism. If Oswald passed the training mission, and was invited to continue another mission, it is more likely that he would have been hired as a full-time CIA (or FBI or ONI) employee. Evidently he was not hired full-time.

So, the better likelihood is that Oswald failed to complete his "Russian defector" mission satisfactorily, and he broke his probationary period. He was not hired as a full-time Intelligence agent, and he was invited to try again some other time -- when he got his act together. But struggle as he might, Lee Harvey Oswald never got his act together.

That's how it appears to me, Michael. Furthermore, as I've noted in the past, the fact that Oswald preferred double-agent scenarios made him more vulnerable, rather than more valuable, for Intelligence operations.

Hemming, Nagell and Dean all had pasts on both sides of the Cold War (quasi-double-agents) and all three of them feared that they were subject to scape-goating by one agency or another. It seems that double-agents were doubly at risk to become patsies in Intelligence skullduggery.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Dear Paul,

I'm afraid you're mistaken about the "dishonorable discharge" bit.

Oswald may have mistakenly assumed that he was appealing a serious "dishonorable discharge." Why? Well, because about a year after he had (allegedly) defected to the Soviet Union, his mother relayed to him the incorrect information that that was what he had recently been given! But Oswald never was given a "dishonorable discharge." The truth is that he was given a worthy-of-being-honorable dependency discharge around September 1, 1959, so that he could take care of his injured mother. At that time he was also transferred from active duty to the reserves. This dependency discharge was changed to an undesirable discharge (less serious than a "dishonorable discharge") on September 13, 1960, almost one full year after Oswald "defected" to the Soviet Union...

So I suppose the question is whether or not Oswald would have protested at all against the less-serious undesirable discharge which he was, in fact, given. Perhaps not. I mean, what could he have (plausibly) expected, anyway, given his trying to defect (or "defect") to the Soviet Union and everything. And maybe, if Oswald was a US spy, maybe just maybe his CIA/ONI controllers told him in advance that he'd be given an undesirable discharge after "defecting" in order to make the defection look more real to the Ruskies. (And if this is the case, then maybe Oswald was really PO-ed when he heard from his ill-informed mom that he'd gotten a dishonorable discharge, instead.) I mean, after all, what would the Ruskies have thought if Oswald had retained his (honorable) dependency discharge (or something equally honorable) after defecting to the Soviet Union and offering to give up some juicy Marine Corps "aviation electronics operator" secrets, especially knowing that Oswald had informed the U.S. Embassy of his intention to do so?

Anyway, the following is from the Warren Commission Report, Appendix 13: Biography of Lee Harvey Oswald:

" [...] Oswald was obligated to serve on active duty until December 7, 1959 (the date having been adjusted to compensate for the period of confinement). (451) On August 17, he submitted a request for a dependency discharge, on the ground that his mother needed his support. (452) [...] on August 28, the [Marine Corps] Wing Hardship or Dependency Discharge Board recommended that Oswald's request for a discharge be approved; (455) approval followed shortly. (456) On September 4, he was transferred from MACS-9 to the H. & H. Squadron, (457) and on September 11, he was released from active duty and transferred to the Marine Corps Reserve, in which he was expected to serve until December 8, 1962. (458) He was assigned to the Marine Air Reserve Training Command at the Naval Air Station in Glenview, Ill. (459) Almost exactly 1 year later, on September 13, 1960, Oswald was given an "undesirable discharge" from the Marine Corps Reserve, (460)...

[...]

http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-13.htm

Sincerely,

--Tommy

Edited June 8, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

Dear Paul,

I'm afraid you're mistaken about the "dishonorable discharge" bit.

Oswald may have mistakenly assumed that he was appealing a serious "dishonorable discharge." Why? Well, because about a year after he had (allegedly) defected to the Soviet Union, his mother relayed to him the incorrect information that that was what he had recently been given! But Oswald never was given a "dishonorable discharge." The truth is that he was given a dependency discharge around September 1, 1959, so that he could take care of his injured mother. At that time he was also transferred from active duty to the reserves. This dependency discharge was changed to an undesirable discharge (less serious than a "dishonorable discharge") on September 13, 1960, almost one full year after Oswald "defected" to the Soviet Union...

So I suppose the question is whether or not Oswald would have protested at all against the less-serious undesirable discharge which he was, in fact, given. Perhaps not. I mean, what could he have (plausibly) expected, anyway, given his trying to defect (or "defect") to the Soviet Union and everything. And maybe, if Oswald was a US spy, maybe his CIA/ONI controllers told him in advance that he'd be given an undesirable discharge after "defecting" in order to make the defection look more real to the Ruskies. I mean, after all, what would the Ruskies have thought if Oswald had retained his (honorable) dependency discharge (or something equally honorable) after defecting to the Soviet Union and offering to give up some juicy Marine Corps "aviation electronics operator" secrets, especially knowing that Oswald had informed the U.S. Embassy of his intention to do so?

Anyway, the following is from the Warren Commission Report, Appendix 13: Biography of Lee Harvey Oswald:

" [...] Oswald was obligated to serve on active duty until December 7, 1959 (the date having been adjusted to compensate for the period of confinement). (451) On August 17, he submitted a request for a dependency discharge, on the ground that his mother needed his support. (452) [...] on August 28, the [Marine Corps] Wing Hardship or Dependency Discharge Board recommended that Oswald's request for a discharge be approved; (455) approval followed shortly. (456) On September 4, he was transferred from MACS-9 to the H. & H. Squadron, (457) and on September 11, he was released from active duty and transferred to the Marine Corps Reserve, in which he was expected to serve until December 8, 1962. (458) He was assigned to the Marine Air Reserve Training Command at the Naval Air Station in Glenview, Ill. (459) Almost exactly 1 year later, on September 13, 1960, Oswald was given an "undesirable discharge" from the Marine Corps Reserve, (460)...

[...]

http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-13.htm

Sincerely,

--Tommy

Tommy, many thanks for this correction. It was not a "dishonorable discharge" from the Marines that Oswald received, but an "undesirable discharge."

That is a significant difference. However, I think my main point still stands, because we still have testimony from attorney Dean Andrews that Lee Harvey Oswald sought legal advice to upgrade his Marine discharge status.

And lest somebody suspect that Dean Andrews committed perjury, we also have a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to the Secretary of the Navy, John Connally (later governor of Texas), requesting help to upgrade his Marine discharge status.

In other words, this "undesirable discharge" status does not appear to me to be a reasonable outcome of a successful spy-training mission in Russia. It seems to me that Lee Harvey Oswald botched his training mission somewhere.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited June 5, 2013 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

So, I think the conclusion here is that Oswald, far from being an "Intelligence Agent," was a low-level stool pigeon for the FBI, CIA and/or ONI. He had no regular job with them. At best he performed "piece work" of $10 and $20 jobs for them, taking photographs as needed.

Paul,

Are you suggesting that just anyone was selected for the 'false defector program', or are you saying that LHO traveled to Russia, by way of Finland, completely on his own initiative?

Michael, I find it complicated that: (1) Oswald was dishonorably discharged from the Marines; and (2) Oswald struggled for a long time to upgrade that status.

This suggests a scenario with two options. If Oswald entered a "false defector program" as a low-level spy-training mission, which was also a probationary period, then his performance in this mission would determine its outcome.

So, it is plausible that:(I) Oswald failed to perform as well as hoped -- perhaps because of taking a Russian wife or another unexpected behavior; or (ii) Oswald successfully completed his training mission, and was invited to continue another mission even deeper under-cover, which would entail a dishonorable discharge from the Marines, and a fake struggle to upgrade that status.

I find that option (ii) lacks the ring of realism. If Oswald passed the training mission, and was invited to continue another mission, it is more likely that he would have been hired as a full-time CIA (or FBI or ONI) employee. Evidently he was not hired full-time.

So, the better likelihood is that Oswald failed to complete his "Russian defector" mission satisfactorily, and he broke his probationary period. He was not hired as a full-time Intelligence agent, and he was invited to try again some other time -- when he got his act together. But struggle as he might, Lee Harvey Oswald never got his act together.

That's how it appears to me, Michael. Furthermore, as I've noted in the past, the fact that Oswald preferred double-agent scenarios made him more vulnerable, rather than more valuable, for Intelligence operations.

Hemming, Nagell and Dean all had pasts on both sides of the Cold War (quasi-double-agents) and all three of them feared that they were subject to scape-goating by one agency or another. It seems that double-agents were doubly at risk to become patsies in Intelligence skullduggery.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Dear Paul,

I'm afraid you're mistaken about the "dishonorable discharge" bit.

Oswald may have mistakenly assumed that he was appealing a serious "dishonorable discharge." Why? Well, because about a year after he had (allegedly) defected to the Soviet Union, his mother relayed to him the incorrect information that that was what he had recently been given! But Oswald never was given a "dishonorable discharge." The truth is that he was given a dependency discharge around September 1, 1959, so that he could take care of his injured mother. At that time he was also transferred from active duty to the reserves. This dependency discharge was changed to an undesirable discharge (less serious than a "dishonorable discharge") on September 13, 1960, almost one full year after Oswald "defected" to the Soviet Union...

So I suppose the question is whether or not Oswald would have protested at all against the less-serious undesirable discharge which he was, in fact, given. Perhaps not. I mean, what could he have (plausibly) expected, anyway, given his trying to defect (or "defect") to the Soviet Union and everything. If Oswald was a US spy, maybe his CIA/ONI controllers told him in advance that he'd be given an undesirable discharge after "defecting" in order to make the defection look more real to the Ruskies. And if that is the case, then maybe Oswald was really PO-ed when he heard from his ill-informed mom that he'd gotten a dishonorable discharge, instead. Ironically, Oswald could have just been trying to "upgrade" his misperceived "dishonorable" discharge status to the "undesirable" one that he'd originally been promised!

I think it's logical to assume that Oswald's actually getting an (unbeknowst-to-him) "undesirable discharge" after defecting actually argues for his being a US spy. I mean, if he'd been a true defector and traitor, wouldn't he really have gotten a dishonorable discharge? And we gotta ask ourselves this question: what would the Ruskies have thought if Oswald had retained his (honorable) dependency discharge (or something equally honorable) after defecting to the Soviet Union and offering to give up some juicy Marine Corps "aviation electronics operator" secrets, especially knowing that Oswald had informed the U.S. Embassy of his intention to do so?

Anyway, the following is from the Warren Commission Report, Appendix 13: Biography of Lee Harvey Oswald:

" [...] Oswald was obligated to serve on active duty until December 7, 1959 (the date having been adjusted to compensate for the period of confinement). (451) On August 17, he submitted a request for a dependency discharge, on the ground that his mother needed his support. (452) [...] on August 28, the [Marine Corps] Wing Hardship or Dependency Discharge Board recommended that Oswald's request for a discharge be approved; (455) approval followed shortly. (456) On September 4, he was transferred from MACS-9 to the H. & H. Squadron, (457) and on September 11, he was released from active duty and transferred to the Marine Corps Reserve, in which he was expected to serve until December 8, 1962. (458) He was assigned to the Marine Air Reserve Training Command at the Naval Air Station in Glenview, Ill. (459) Almost exactly 1 year later, on September 13, 1960, Oswald was given an "undesirable discharge" from the Marine Corps Reserve, (460)...

[...]

http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-13.htm

Sincerely,

--Tommy

Edited and bumped.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Thomas Graves