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Several stops in the motorcade (Merged Harris Thread-Post #8-with 3 older threads)


Karl Kinaski
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  • 1 year later...

I'm looking for a really good, digital copy of the Elm St. sequence in the Bronson film.

If anyone has one or can point me to one, please let me know. I saw Robin's BTW, but it only includes a few of the frames.

There are only A FEW frames. Remember, Bronson was operating BOTH a movie camera AND a 35mm camera. The

Groden collection contains what I presume to be the entire Bronson movie.

Jack

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Robert do you own Robert Grodens "The Assassination Films"?

If not buy it, it has the short Bronson film in good quality

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  • 1 year later...

Exchange between Gary Mack and me:

Kinaski:

The Wiegman film fragment (Y Tube version) starts after the brief stop and restart of the Cabell car and the Telephone car in front of his convertible. (Press car one)

KK

Mack:

I don't know which YouTube version you're watching. Groden's isn't complete. I used a copy of the NBC broadcast from the unedited original tape. You have to factor in all the relevant films, which means Zapruder, Nix, Muchmore, Bronson, Wiegman, Bell, Paschall, Hughes, Couch and Darnell. And that includes studying the movements of spectators including where and when they and DPD officers first appeared. Researchers like Todd Vaughan have second-by-second clocks of the events. There really was no time for the limo to stop for any length of time.

Kinaski:

Testimony of Mr Cabell

She was in the car ahead of the telephone car seen, when Wiegman starts. This was the fifith car from Kennedys car. Wiegman was in the seventh car...

We were looking directly at each other, The position of our car was such that when that first shot rang out, my position was such that I did not have to turn to look at the building. I was directly facing it.

Mr. Hubert.

In other words, your car was still really on Houston?

Mrs. Cabell.

No; we were making the turn.

()

"Earle, it is a shot", and before I got the words out, just as I got the words out, he said, "Oh, no; it must have been a "the second two shots rang out. After that, there is a certain amount of confusion in my mind. I was acutely

aware of the odor of gunpowder. I was aware that the motorcade stopped dead still. There was no question about that."

The key words are: when the first shot rang out I WAS DIRECTLY FACING THE BUILDING we were making just the turn...the motorcade stopped dead still.

---

The Wiegman fragment started AFTER the first bum and after the Cabell car (and the telephone car) stopped briefly and started again:

Starting point of Wiegman fragment.

The Cabell car is in motion AGAIN and finishing the turn! Mrs Cabell is not FACING the TSBD anymore.

32zuslg.png

Then the Wiegman car stopped for a second time to let him (Wiegman)out...

I came to the conclusion that there where three independent stops of cars in the motorcade: The Kennedy Limo came almost to a halt, shortly BEFORE the Cabell car and at last the car in front of it, a secret service car, came to a stop directly after the first bum. Maybe because of a big firecracker thrown in front of them.

(Some thought it was backfire, most of the witness testified that the first bum came from ground level..one witness SAW the fire cracker explode)...than there was the stop of the press car one, to let Wiegman out...

All of this stops caused the complete halt of the rest of the motorcade, which everyone can observe at 1min04 on the Pascall film...

KK

Edited by Karl Kinaski
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Yes, I know about her testimony and a short filmed interview she gave within a few days that, from memory, says pretty much the same thing. You are assuming her memory is 100% perfect in every aspect, but you cannot do that. An otherwise credible witness thought the shooting took about five minutes, so was he correct? People are not recorders, any cop, lawyer or reporter will tell you that. She was mistaken, unless you want to believe that sometime between the shots and 3pm CST someone altered the Wiegman film and all the other films just happened to fit with it.

Gary

Kinaski:

No need of alteration here - the Wiegman film fragment starts AFTER the stop of the Cabell car...or are you in the possession of a another Wiegman version...then prove me wrong, please...

KK

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Indeed Karl... I believe THIS is why the turn was cut out of the Z film and is not available in its entirety...

the problem remains TOWNER... other than the splice AT THE CORNER... it seems to be smooth...

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.

Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb?

Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.

If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

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  • 10 months later...

As anyone who has studied the films and photos knows, there are four films in which the limo slows down but moves continuously. One might think that that would settle the issue. But some of the more extreme alterationists have argued that the perps must have altered all of the films so that they all matched.

Absurd as that might seem, it is still true that the Zapruder, Muchmore and Nix films were all at one time or another, in the hands of the feds. But there is an exception.

Like the others, the Bronson film also shows the limo in continuous motion, but unlike them, it was never in the hands of the government. Charles Bronson stated that FBI agents met with him at the Kodak processing center and viewed the photos and film with him. But the Elm St. sequence was tiny - much smaller than the other films and the feds said they were not interested in it. Later, UPI also viewed the film and were likewise, not interested.

That movie remained with Bronson until after he died, when the family lent it to the 6th floor museum and permitted them to copy it. Undoubtedly, the most radical of the alterationists will try to argue that Bronson must have been "in on it". But I don't see how any rational person could deny that this film constitutes absolute proof that the limo never came to a full stop then.

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Mr. Harris

On the 22nd November, 1963, SA William Greer was assigned to drive the presidential limousine in the motorcade through Dallas. Several witnesses said that Greer stopped the car after the first shot was fired. This included Jean Hill, who was the closest witness to the car when Kennedy was shot: According to Hill "the motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots rang out". James Chaney (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) - stated that the limousine "after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped." Mary Woodward, another witness to the assassination and a journalist with the Dallas Morning News wrote: "Instead of speeding up the car, the car came to a halt... after the first shot".

The author William Manchester claims that William Greer (limo driver) told Jackie Kennedy at Parkland Hospital: "Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, oh my God, oh my God. I didn't mean to do it, I didn't hear, I should have swerved the car, I couldn't help it. Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, as soon as I saw it I swerved. If only I'd seen it in time!"

I wonder just what it was Mr. Greer meant when he said, "....as soon as I saw it I swerved." Any idea why this swerve is not seen in the Zapruder film?

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Mr. Harris

On the 22nd November, 1963, SA William Greer was assigned to drive the presidential limousine in the motorcade through Dallas. Several witnesses said that Greer stopped the car after the first shot was fired. This included Jean Hill, who was the closest witness to the car when Kennedy was shot: According to Hill "the motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots rang out". James Chaney (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) - stated that the limousine "after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped." Mary Woodward, another witness to the assassination and a journalist with the Dallas Morning News wrote: "Instead of speeding up the car, the car came to a halt... after the first shot".

The author William Manchester claims that William Greer (limo driver) told Jackie Kennedy at Parkland Hospital: "Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, oh my God, oh my God. I didn't mean to do it, I didn't hear, I should have swerved the car, I couldn't help it. Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, as soon as I saw it I swerved. If only I'd seen it in time!"

I wonder just what it was Mr. Greer meant when he said, "....as soon as I saw it I swerved." Any idea why this swerve is not seen in the Zapruder film?

If you count the original statements from 1963 and 1964, you will find that a large majority of witnesses who mentioned this, said the limo slowed or almost came to a stop, which is exactly what it did.

Greer lifted his foot from the gas for exactly the reason that Dr. Luis Alvarez said he did. He was startled by a loud noise at frame 285. Of course that was not a siren. That was a gunshot which also startled every other nonvictim who was in the limo.

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Mr. Harris

On the 22nd November, 1963, SA William Greer was assigned to drive the presidential limousine in the motorcade through Dallas. Several witnesses said that Greer stopped the car after the first shot was fired. This included Jean Hill, who was the closest witness to the car when Kennedy was shot: According to Hill "the motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots rang out". James Chaney (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) - stated that the limousine "after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped." Mary Woodward, another witness to the assassination and a journalist with the Dallas Morning News wrote: "Instead of speeding up the car, the car came to a halt... after the first shot".

The author William Manchester claims that William Greer (limo driver) told Jackie Kennedy at Parkland Hospital: "Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, oh my God, oh my God. I didn't mean to do it, I didn't hear, I should have swerved the car, I couldn't help it. Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, as soon as I saw it I swerved. If only I'd seen it in time!"

I wonder just what it was Mr. Greer meant when he said, "....as soon as I saw it I swerved." Any idea why this swerve is not seen in the Zapruder film?

If you count the original statements from 1963 and 1964, you will find that a large majority of witnesses who mentioned this, said the limo slowed or almost came to a stop, which is exactly what it did.

Greer lifted his foot from the gas for exactly the reason that Dr. Luis Alvarez said he did. He was startled by a loud noise at frame 285. Of course that was not a siren. That was a gunshot which also startled every other nonvictim who was in the limo.

And the swerve? Mr. Greer definitely mentioned swerving.

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If you search this forum for limo stop you'll this has already been gone over, over and over and over again. No reason to go over it again.

I think differently. This is an issue that will not go away, because of the large number of witnesses to the stop. These witnesses were positioned near the limo and also at a distance. The Z-film most certainly does not show that the limo almost came to a stop, contra Mr. Harris. Slowed, yes, Almost came to a stop, no. Any witnesses conveying an "almost stop" are contradicting the Z-film. So the number is quite large; and not all of them are recorded in Palamara's article. It is the combined corroboration of these witnesses which makes their statements impossible to ignore, unless one has a prior conviction that the Z-film accurately records the assassination. The problems with Z-film authenticity have multiplied since the publication of Horne, and these problems provide in their own way corroboration to the limo stop witnesses. In another forum, and of course here, Mr. Harris argues that the Bronson film never was in the hands of the government, and it shows no limo stop. Viewing the film, I noticed that it ends soon after the head shot. So Bronson is of no use one way or the other. The limo stop and McClelland's drawing (the drawing which McClelland approved) for Josiah Thompson's book are like twins -- utterly derided because they contradict the supposed "best evidence." Lifton proved long ago the "best evidence" game doesn't work in this case. Failing to heed this warning, we simply go round and round chasing our tails getting nowhere. Things don't converge, as Thompson rightly noted, but failed to discern why. It's called fraud in the evidence, and we have fallen for a facade hook, line and sinker.

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If you search this forum for limo stop you'll this has already been gone over, over and over and over again. No reason to go over it again.

I think differently. This is an issue that will not go away, because of the large number of witnesses to the stop. These witnesses were positioned near the limo and also at a distance. The Z-film most certainly does not show that the limo almost came to a stop, contra Mr. Harris. Slowed, yes, Almost came to a stop, no. Any witnesses conveying an "almost stop" are contradicting the Z-film. So the number is quite large; and not all of them are recorded in Palamara's article. It is the combined corroboration of these witnesses which makes their statements impossible to ignore, unless one has a prior conviction that the Z-film accurately records the assassination. The problems with Z-film authenticity have multiplied since the publication of Horne, and these problems provide in their own way corroboration to the limo stop witnesses. In another forum, and of course here, Mr. Harris argues that the Bronson film never was in the hands of the government, and it shows no limo stop. Viewing the film, I noticed that it ends soon after the head shot. So Bronson is of no use one way or the other. The limo stop and McClelland's drawing (the drawing which McClelland approved) for Josiah Thompson's book are like twins -- utterly derided because they contradict the supposed "best evidence." Lifton proved long ago the "best evidence" game doesn't work in this case. Failing to heed this warning, we simply go round and round chasing our tails getting nowhere. Things don't converge, as Thompson rightly noted, but failed to discern why. It's called fraud in the evidence, and we have fallen for a facade hook, line and sinker.

Mr. Gallup

And do not forget the swerve, my friend. Mr. Greer specifically mentioned a swerve.

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If you search this forum for limo stop you'll this has already been gone over, over and over and over again. No reason to go over it again.

I think differently. This is an issue that will not go away, because of the large number of witnesses to the stop. These witnesses were positioned near the limo and also at a distance. The Z-film most certainly does not show that the limo almost came to a stop, contra Mr. Harris. Slowed, yes, Almost came to a stop, no. Any witnesses conveying an "almost stop" are contradicting the Z-film. So the number is quite large; and not all of them are recorded in Palamara's article. It is the combined corroboration of these witnesses which makes their statements impossible to ignore, unless one has a prior conviction that the Z-film accurately records the assassination. The problems with Z-film authenticity have multiplied since the publication of Horne, and these problems provide in their own way corroboration to the limo stop witnesses. In another forum, and of course here, Mr. Harris argues that the Bronson film never was in the hands of the government, and it shows no limo stop. Viewing the film, I noticed that it ends soon after the head shot. So Bronson is of no use one way or the other. The limo stop and McClelland's drawing (the drawing which McClelland approved) for Josiah Thompson's book are like twins -- utterly derided because they contradict the supposed "best evidence." Lifton proved long ago the "best evidence" game doesn't work in this case. Failing to heed this warning, we simply go round and round chasing our tails getting nowhere. Things don't converge, as Thompson rightly noted, but failed to discern why. It's called fraud in the evidence, and we have fallen for a facade hook, line and sinker.

Mr. Gallup

And do not forget the swerve, my friend. Mr. Greer specifically mentioned a swerve.

Yes Robert, and someone (I wish I had written this down) said Greer pulled over the the left. That would be equivalent to a swerve.

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