I think there is a better than 50/50 chance that DCM is F.Lee Mudd (Update: Almost No Chance)

[Mike Rago]

I believe there is a better than 50 percent chance that DCM is F.Lee Mudd. I base this entire interpretation of the FBI statement of F. Lee Mudd.(Of course if someone can show that F.Lee Mudd is not black then I will immediately concede that I am wrong! On the other hand if someone can show that F.Lee Mudd was black then my chances of being correct go way up!)

I realize that Pat Speer has a thread in this forum where he believes that F.Lee Mudd is the red shirt man on the steps to the Grassy Knoll. Pat may indeed be right because as I re-read the FBI statement I am beginning to like his interpretation better than mine. However, since I have already started this I might as well finish it and settle the few questions that I have on Pat's identification.

First here is the FBI statement of F. Lee Mudd in two parts

The part that I have focused on in the past, and perhaps too much so, is this part of the F.Lee Mudd's statement

"When the presidents car came abreast of MUDD he could see the president slumped down in the car with his wife leaning over him".

Here is a frame from the Nix film showing when the limo came abreast of the Red Shirt man. It is quite obvious that Mrs. Kennedy was on the trunk of the car and so does not seem to fit with the MUDD statement.

Also notice that in the statement F.Lee Mudd says

"immediately after the shots were fired some of the spectators along the street dropped to the ground and he did so himself"

The only male spectators that I am aware of on the north side of the street who dropped to the ground were Emmet Hudson, Red Shirt Man,Bill Newman, DCM and Umbrella Man.

Of the above men all but DCM and Red Shirt man can be accounted for. Based on the "abreast" statement I lean toward DCM.

The presidents limo, I think , came abreast of DCM at about Zapruder frame 265 where it appears to me that the president is slumping toward his wife and his wife is leaning over him.

Also note that at no time in the F.Lee Mudd statement does he mention "stairs". We know that Red Shirt man was standing on stairs and it seems that would be something he would mention in his statement.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Ian Kingsbury]

Mike

If you read the statements of Brehm and Altgens it would appear

Likely that a shot was fired after the head shot that we know as

Z313 ,it would appear as if the "last "shot was 40 further west than is shown

In the Zfilm.Thom Purvis plotted this position using Mr West's data

Gathered for the FBI/SS re-enactment at 4+95 datum, this is about where

Mudds statement explains geographically.

And by utilising Chris Davidsons "math part one " thread to plot the speed of the limo

And the number of frames this calculation seems correct.

But when viewing the film with this in mind many of the statements

Of those closest appear out of synch with the action.

Altgens was a pro and guessing 5 to 50 feet for focus would have been

Second nature to him ,I believe he fluffs his given script and goes a little loco

When trying to lie about the "last shot".

This would also be a good opportunity for a through and through (SBT) shot

As both JFK and JBC are more "aligned" between the seats by thenJFK,s

Skull is weakened and a head shot At this point in time would most likely hit

Connally as well.

Ian

[Thomas Graves]

Mike

If you read the statements of Brehm and Altgens it would appear

Likely that a shot was fired after the head shot that we know as

Z313 ,it would appear as if the "last "shot was 40 further west than is shown

In the Zfilm.Thom Purvis plotted this position using Mr West's data

Gathered for the FBI/SS re-enactment at 4+95 datum, this is about where

Mudds statement explains geographically.

And by utilising Chris Davidsons "math part one " thread to plot the speed of the limo

And the number of frames this calculation seems correct.

But when viewing the film with this in mind many of the statements

Of those closest appear out of synch with the action.

Altgens was a pro and guessing 5 to 50 feet for focus would have been

Second nature to him ,I believe he fluffs his given script and goes a little loco

When trying to lie about the "last shot".

This would also be a good opportunity for a through and through (SBT) shot

As both JFK and JBC are more "aligned" between the seats by thenJFK,s

Skull is weakened and a head shot At this point in time would most likely hit

Connally as well.

Ian

Ian,

Sorry, but I don't understand the last part of your post. Wasn't JC already lying down by this time? Hadn't he already been wounded? And what do you mean when you say, "this is about where Mudd's statement explains geographically."?

Please clarify.

Thanks,

--Tommy

Edited July 10, 2012 by Thomas Graves

[Mike Rago]

Obituary of woman married to a Lee Mudd in June 1954 in Shreveport Lousiana. Date of article is December 2010.

"She is survived by her husband, Lee, of 56 years."

Note: That should be married for 66 years if they were married in 1954?

I deleted the link to the article out of respect to their family.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Ian Kingsbury]

Mike

If you read the statements of Brehm and Altgens it would appear

Likely that a shot was fired after the head shot that we know as

Z313 ,it would appear as if the "last "shot was 40 further west than is shown

In the Zfilm.Thom Purvis plotted this position using Mr West's data

Gathered for the FBI/SS re-enactment at 4+95 datum, this is about where

Mudds statement explains geographically.

And by utilising Chris Davidsons "math part one " thread to plot the speed of the limo

And the number of frames this calculation seems correct.

But when viewing the film with this in mind many of the statements

Of those closest appear out of synch with the action.

Altgens was a pro and guessing 5 to 50 feet for focus would have been

Second nature to him ,I believe he fluffs his given script and goes a little loco

When trying to lie about the "last shot".

This would also be a good opportunity for a through and through (SBT) shot

As both JFK and JBC are more "aligned" between the seats by thenJFK,s

Skull is weakened and a head shot At this point in time would most likely hit

Connally as well.

Ian

Ian,

Sorry, but I don't understand the last part of your post. Wasn't JC already lying down by this time? Hadn't he already been wounded? And what do you mean when you say, "this is about where Mudd's statement explains geographically."?

Please clarify.

Thanks,

--Tommy

Tommy

Sorry old bean a bit slapdash .

It's possible for JBC to have been hit twice.

If JFK was leaning to his left some of JBC was "in line" with the head

Of JFK

[Guest Tom Scully]

Obituary of woman married to a Lee Mudd in June 1954 in Shreveport Lousiana. Date of article is December 2010.

"She is survived by her husband, Lee, of 56 years."

Note: That should be married for 66 years if they were married in 1954?

I deleted the link to the article out of respect to their family.

IMO, you are on the right track, stick to your guns, you've got the obit of the daughter-in-law (Sommerlatte) of Francis Lee Mudd. I can prove it.

Don't dismiss your only contemporary lead. I also have the deceased woman's husband's contact info. He is the son of Francis Lee Mudd, if his middle name is Sterling. How many Mudds in that area do you think there are? Not many, is my guess.

[Pat Speer]

Obituary of woman married to a Lee Mudd in June 1954 in Shreveport Lousiana. Date of article is December 2010.

"She is survived by her husband, Lee, of 56 years."

Note: That should be married for 66 years if they were married in 1954?

I deleted the link to the article out of respect to their family.

IMO, you are on the right track, stick to your guns, you've got the obit of the daughter-in-law (Sommerlatte) of Francis Lee Mudd. I can prove it.

Don't dismiss your only contemporary lead. I also have the deceased woman's husband's contact info. He is the son of Francis Lee Mudd, if his middle name is Sterling. How many Mudds in that area do you think there are? Not many, is my guess.

When I looked into this a few years back, Tom, some of the guys over on aaj found evidence there'd been a Lee Mudd, Jr, who we presumed was the son of the Francis Lee Mudd who passed in the early 70's (as I recall). For years, people had assumed the Mudd in Dealey was the father, but many of these same people had also assumed he was black. There is nothing in the report and newspaper article on Mudd indicating his age or race.

Perhaps Mike has found something suggesting the son is still alive.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Pat Speer

[Guest Tom Scully]

Pat I think this cracks the case..... the old man is exactly the correct age, somebody should telephone him and ask him. I believe Francis Lee was born 12 Nov., 1903, so his birthdate could be a bit off in this article. the article image is $3.95 at the Trib's site, and I'll bet the scanned flaws in the text are not in the article image.

Charges Divorced Husband with Kidnaping Boy of 7

‎

Pay-Per-View -

Chicago Tribune - Sep 5, 1937

...S. Ceplan in the Dosplailnes street court yesterday charging her di. vorced

husband, Francis Lee -Mudd, 32, ot S3, La., w I th kidnaping 7 year old son.

Mrs. Mudd, who lives withhor father, Wi-I- liam Stueben, at 819 North Learn-

Ington av enue, said the child, Lee Sterling Mvudd, was play, Ing at the side

ot tho Friday when Ml4dd drove up in in an. automo. with his own parents, pu1ad

the boy into the car and drove awaY.

...,and Pat, I'd like to close the thread, or merge it, because the address matches for a Gertrude Steuben, and everyone pictured is caucasian, as is the obit of Joyce in 2010. and the bride above, and in another family wedding in December, 2011.

Chicago State University - Emblem Yearbook (Chicago, IL), Class of ...

www.e-yearbook.com/yearbooks/Chicago_State.../Page_75.html

Bloom Township High N. C. A. A.; Fellowship; Geography Club; armonica ; Rifle Club Steuben, Gertrude — 406 819 N. Leamington Ave. . Austin Fellowship ...

Read the text and look at the image of page 75 in the 1927 yearbook....Gertrude Steuben of 819 North Leamington (3rd entry on left in the page image, third photo on top of the yearbook page). Francis Lee Mudd and his parents are reported in 1937 to have driven from Shreveport to Chicago and "picked up" Lee Sterling Mudd......

I just found this after searching for Gertrude:

https://groups.googl...jfk/pS2cG5xF4EM

yeuhd View profile More options Feb 26 2010, 1:33 pm

A message from the Genealogy Department of the Shreve Memorial Library

in Shreveport, Louisiana:

"The Mudd who ran the Southside Ranch Shop was Francis Lee Mudd Sr.,

who was married to Faye Katherine or Katherine Faye (maiden name

unknown at this time). His probable son was actually named Lee S.

Mudd, married to Joyce (maiden name unknown presently). Lee S. Mudd is

a forester and is still living.… Francis Lee Mudd was married to

Gertrude in the early 1930's before marrying Faye about 1956, so

Gertrude was probably Lee S. Mudd's mother. Francis Lee Mudd was an

insurance salesman until about 1957, then he ran a gas station in

Keithville (Lee's Cities Service). In 1962, he is shown as the owner

of the Southside Ranch Shop. From 1967 until his death, Francis Lee

Mudd was a representative for Louisiana Hospital Services. Katherine

Faye Mudd, his wife, died in 1994. Hope that this is helpful."

So, combining this with the information in the 1930 U.S. Census and

the Social Security Death Index, we now know that the F. Lee Mudd who

was in Dealey Plaza, and who operated the Southside Ranch Shop, was a

60-year-old white man.....

So, the 1937 news article solves the mystery...finally. Case closed, moving on to higher potenital pursuits......FINALLY! :

.................

Why, Pat, does your Mr. Mudd get more ink in his FBI interview than Mrs. Williams, mother of Buell Frazier, or Virginia Hale, wife of the manager of General Dynamics Ft. Worth industrial security, a former FBI agent whose two sons were the subject of an August, 1962 burglary of Judith Campbell's apartment, observed in progress by FBI agents?

I don't mean to single you out, Pat, but as Bill Kelly posted on the Mr. & Mrs. Whatitsname thread, what is the point of what has been consuming almost all of the atmosphere in this forum, of late?

I'm hoping that if you do attract 148 other posts, you'll wish you posted this thread at some other time, when it isn't in the midst of the mass obsession with all things visual, here at the JFK Debate forum.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Tom Scully

[Mike Rago]

I found a picture of Francis Lee Mudd of Shereport Louisiana in the 1931 issue of Jambalaya Yearbook. This is the yearbook for Tulane University. That yearbook is copyrighted and I do not think I can post the image. He is caucasian. He was a senior in the College of Law.

To see the image, google "Francis Lee Mudd Jambalaya yearbook" then you have to join the Tulane Archives Website(free). Then you can look at the contents of the yearbook.

Here is a link to the webpage for the yearbook. You have to join the website to see the contents.

http://archive.org/details/jambalayayearboo36edit

Edited July 11, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Guest Tom Scully]

I'm sending you a PM with a link to Lee S Mudd's daughter-in-law's facebook page. One of her friends is Lee Mudd's grandaughter. Everyone is caucasian.

[Mike Rago]

It must not be copyrighted because I could view the entire yearbook when not logged in.

Here is a link to Francis Lee Mudd's 1931 yearbook picture. He is on the right hand page.

http://archive.org/stream/jambalayayearboo36edit#page/62/mode/2up

[Ian Kingsbury]

Was the idea of the thread to establish Mudds ethnicity?.

Or was it to demonstrate the fallibility of testimony?.

[Mike Rago]

There is something about this id that I do not like.

If F. Lee Mudd is Francis Lee Mudd and the Red Shirt man then he should have heard the shot from the Grassy Knoll.

There are few things that I am confident of , but a shot from the Grassy Knoll is one of them.

If there was a shot from the Josiah Thompson location, and if Red Shirt Man is F. Lee Mudd then he should have heard it.

[Pat Speer]

Well, that's the problem, Mike. Mudd is not a grassy knoll witness, so Tink--apparently, by accident--turned him into a Dal-Tex witness. Then, when I tried to correct this and point out that Mudd was probably red shirt man, people flipped out and tried to insist he was an old man, and couldn't have been the young man mentioned by Hudson.

The jury's still out, as far as I'm concerned. The Francis Lee Mudd in the photo you've discovered, apparently the father of Lee Sterling Mudd, was a lawyer. Well, what's a lawyer doing running a western store? Was he disbarred after "kidnapping" his son? And why did the original article on Mudd identify him as H. Lee Mudd? Was this just a mistake? Or did the FBI make a typo in its report when they identified him as F. Lee Mudd, while the actual witness was a relation, H. Lee Mudd?

Edited July 11, 2012 by Pat Speer

[Mike Rago]

Well, that's the problem, Mike. Mudd is not a grassy knoll witness, so Tink--apparently, by accident--turned him into a Dal-Tex witness. Then, when I tried to correct this and point out that Mudd was probably red shirt man, people flipped out and tried to insist he was an old man, and couldn't have been the young man mentioned by Hudson.

The jury's still out, as far as I'm concerned. The Francis Lee Mudd in the photo you've discovered, apparently the father of Lee Sterling Mudd, was a lawyer. Well, what's a lawyer doing running a western store? Was he disbarred after "kidnapping" his son? And why did the original article on Mudd identify him as H. Lee Mudd? Was this just a mistake? Or did the FBI make a typo in its report when they identified him as F. Lee Mudd, while the actual witness was a relation, H. Lee Mudd?

Well thanks for providing this additional information. I do not know what but I know something is not right about this id. Your new information makes me think that the name on the FBI report is not correct.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Mike Rago