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Lifton and Morningster, nice but no cigar.


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This has been discussed ad nauseum. It's nonsense. Many of the so-called "limo-stopped" witnesses were really limo-slowed or motorcade stopped witnesses, which is to say NOT "limo-stopped" witnesses. QUOTE OFF

You assure us that the car did not stop, even though two witnesses who were there said the car stopped, momentarily, right in front of them.

Mr. Lifton you really did not address Pat's question. Pat said that most of the "limo stopped" witnesses were either "limo slowed" or "motorcade stopped" witnesses.

All you did is refer to Bill Newman and his wife. You say they say the limo stopped "momentarily", what does momentarily mean?

Review of David Lifton's theory

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Edited by Mike Rago
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This has been discussed ad nauseum. It's nonsense. Many of the so-called "limo-stopped" witnesses were really limo-slowed or motorcade stopped witnesses, which is to say NOT "limo-stopped" witnesses. QUOTE OFF

You assure us that the car did not stop, even though two witnesses who were there said the car stopped, momentarily, right in front of them.

Mr. Lifton you really did not address Pat's question. Pat said that most of the "limo stopped" witnesses were either "limo slowed" or "motorcade stopped" witnesses.

All you did is refer to Bill Newman and his wife. You say they say the limo stopped "momentarily", what does momentarily mean?

I know this question is directed at Mr. Lifton, but "momentarily" generally means "for a moment."

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Mike, here is a portion of Debra Conway's interview with Toni Foster in 1998 which appeared in the KAC Summer 2000. It is evident that Toni Foster, the "running woman" in the extant Z-film, had not seen the Z-film. "for some reason the car stopped. It did stop for seconds. I don't ever know why it stopped and all of a sudden it sped up and they went under the underpass. I could never figure out why the car stopped." Critics say the limo stop witnesses weren't referring to the limo, but this is quite false, as you see here. Others charge the limo stop witnesses as being in schock and not able to report accurately what they saw. This foolish reasoning is contradicted by the specificity of Toni Foster's recollections, even though the interview was in 1998.

You can see why Pat Speer's dismissal of these witnesses is such an insult to those who were actually there. If I were Toni Foster and read such comments, I would be rightly indignant.

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This has been discussed ad nauseum. It's nonsense. Many of the so-called "limo-stopped" witnesses were really limo-slowed or motorcade stopped witnesses, which is to say NOT "limo-stopped" witnesses. QUOTE OFF

You assure us that the car did not stop, even though two witnesses who were there said the car stopped, momentarily, right in front of them.

Mr. Lifton you really did not address Pat's question. Pat said that most of the "limo stopped" witnesses were either "limo slowed" or "motorcade stopped" witnesses.

All you did is refer to Bill Newman and his wife. You say they say the limo stopped "momentarily", what does momentarily mean?

I know this question is directed at Mr. Lifton, but "momentarily" generally means "for a moment."

What does for a moment mean?

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Mike, here is a portion of Debra Conway's interview with Toni Foster in 1998 which appeared in the KAC Summer 2000. It is evident that Toni Foster, the "running woman" in the extant Z-film, had not seen the Z-film. "for some reason the car stopped. It did stop for seconds. I don't ever know why it stopped and all of a sudden it sped up and they went under the underpass. I could never figure out why the car stopped." Critics say the limo stop witnesses weren't referring to the limo, but this is quite false, as you see here. Others charge the limo stop witnesses as being in schock and not able to report accurately what they saw. This foolish reasoning is contradicted by the specificity of Toni Foster's recollections, even though the interview was in 1998.

You can see why Pat Speer's dismissal of these witnesses is such an insult to those who were actually there. If I were Toni Foster and read such comments, I would be rightly indignant.

Personally I have no problem understanding that people who saw other cars stop and the motorcycles stop and the limo slow down almost to a stop would mis-interpret that all the cars stopped.

We know from photographic evidence the limo slowed down, but we also know from photographic evidence the limo did not stop.

You say that Toni Foster is the 'running woman" in the Zapruder film. How do you know she was running?

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Edited by Mike Rago
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Mike, here is a portion of Debra Conway's interview with Toni Foster in 1998 which appeared in the KAC Summer 2000. It is evident that Toni Foster, the "running woman" in the extant Z-film, had not seen the Z-film. "for some reason the car stopped. It did stop for seconds. I don't ever know why it stopped and all of a sudden it sped up and they went under the underpass. I could never figure out why the car stopped." Critics say the limo stop witnesses weren't referring to the limo, but this is quite false, as you see here. Others charge the limo stop witnesses as being in schock and not able to report accurately what they saw. This foolish reasoning is contradicted by the specificity of Toni Foster's recollections, even though the interview was in 1998.

You can see why Pat Speer's dismissal of these witnesses is such an insult to those who were actually there. If I were Toni Foster and read such comments, I would be rightly indignant.

Here Here Daniel....

Burns my chaps when these witnesses are dismissed, as if the physical evidence in the case has more credibility than these eye witnesses...

the Physical evidence cannot even tell us where z313 occurs with any accuracy....

"No, Carolyn Arnold was mistaken about seeing Oswald downstairs around 12:15 ..

"Roger Craig was mistaken about who and what he saw."

"Jean Hill did NOT hear as many shots or see anyone running behind the fence",

Altgens was mistaken that as a professional photographer focusing to 15 feet and claiming that JFK was hit while 15 feet from him... another mistake

Baker's affidavit is inconsequential... that he does not mention a door with a window or the 2nd floor should simply be dismissed as an innocent mistake

Hill claiming the shells are Autos and explaining years later how he saw the hulls in a "tight bunch" - when in reality he doesn't arrive and meet Poe until AFTER they are inthe cigarette wrapper

Yates did NOT drop a man with a 4 foot paper bag at the front of the TSBD

No one sees any Oswald look a like leaving the back of the theater

White does not see a car with an Oswald in it

Those on the overpass - who all coroborrate each other - did not see smoke or hear a shot from the GK

Truly was wrong about the wide turn onto Elm

Boone and Weitzman - mistaken about the rifle

Sawyer - mistaken about the rifle being found on the 5th floor and moved

Truly was wrong about the timing with Fritz, Oswald and the finding of the rifle

Richard Carr and who he sees running rom the back of the TSBD

Ed Hoffman - cause you know handicapped people are not reliable

Below is the unedited transcript from interviews with witnesses to the Kennedy assassination: Rosemary Willis Roach, her sister Linda Willis Pool, and mother Marilyn Willis; Bill and Gayle Newman; Pierce Allman; Bobby Hargis and James Leavelle. Interviewed by Joe Nick Patoski

Rosemary Willis:

Rosemary: As they made the turn from Houston to Elm Street, they'd just gone a few feet when the first shot rang out, and upon hearing the sound, my normal body reaction was to look up and follow the sound that I heard, it was so abrupt. I didn't know what it was, but I was looking for what I heard. And the pigeons immediately ascended off that roof of the school book depository building and that's what caught my eye. My eyes were searching for what I heard and I see the pigeons, you know, they're scared to death, and take off in abrupt flight. Next thing I know, right after that, there's another shot. And after that, there's another shot and another shot. We disagree, between me and her (nodding towards her mom and sister). My ears heard four shots. If you ask me how many I think there were, I really think that there were six, but I heard four and I'll tell you why: the first one, you know I'm right across from Zapruder. I'm wherever the limousine is. It's almost like I could...I'm right there. Anyway, the first shot rang out. It was to the front of me, and to the right of me, up high. The second shot that I heard came across from my right shoulder. By that time, the limousine had already moved further down. And that shot came across my shoulder. And the next one, right after that, still came from the right but not from as far back, it was up some. Still behind me, but not as far back as the other one. And the next one that came was from the grassy knoll and I saw the smoke coming through the trees, into the air.... Fragments of his head ascended into the air, and from my vision, focal point, the smoke and the fragments, you know, everything met. I mean, there's no question in my mind what I saw or what I heard.

Brehm...

BREHM expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot, but of this he is not certain. After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of his sight.

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Photographic evidence has shown over and over and over again the fallibility of eye witness testimony. Not just in this case but in 1000's of cases across the world and country to this very day.

All we are seeing is the fallibility of eye witness testimony.

Edited by Mike Rago
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Sorry Mikey... eye witness testimony is only used to authenticate the physical evidence... when a proponderance of the witness statements contradict the physical evidence

AND that evidence is horribly tainted by the activities of those who gathered it, the physical evidence is questioned.

So, except when the photographic, medical and physical evidence has no chain of custody, no authentication, no coroborration and has been exclusively in the hands of those most likely involved in the cover-up

- the FBI and Secret Service - the witness evidence supercedes it...

The fact that in a normal situation you are correct is what made AUTHENTICATING THE EVIDENCE so much more important in this case...

When in case after case the physical evidence cannot be authenticated - what do you suppose that says about that evidence other than it is NOT representative of the facts.

Curious Mike.... which of the fallible witnesses remembering incorrectly HELPED Oswald... or does every witness that cannot be trusted only say things that HURT Oswald?

11. On the basis of the evidence before the Commission it concludes

that Oswald acted alone.

The eyewitness testimony OVERWHELMINGLY puts a shooter on the grassy knoll...

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Photographic evidence has shown over and over and over again the fallibility of eye witness testimony. Not just in this case but in 1000's of cases across the world and country to this very day.

All we are seeing is the fallibility of eye witness testimony.

I understand where you're "coming from" (as the saying goes), but I believe you to be entirely incorrect.

The basic problem with your entire analysis, Mr. Rago, is that critical photographic evidence in this case has been forged (which is what the Kennedy assassination plot (and/or coverup) is all about, in the first place). Of course, you don't see it that way--you apparently believe you have "found" a cornucopia of data leading to some profound "truth."

Of course, those of us who have followed this case "from the beginning" don't have that perspective, at all, and one reason perhaps is that we didn't have that photographic evidence: (1) We did not have the autopsy photographs; (2) We did not have the Z film, or frames from the Z film.

Our starting point was the medical evidence--and by that I am referring to the records of the Parkland doctors and nurses, and the autopsy protocol; both of which were published in the Warren Commission Report (1964) and were an integral part of the original "official version" of the event and "the case against Oswald."

That's what we had--and that's all we had (and here I'm referring to the period 1963 - 1968).

THE CLARK PANEL REPORT, the Z-Film, and the X-rays and Photographs

Then came the Clark Panel Report, created in March, 1968, and released around January 17, 1969, just 3 days before LBJ left the Oval Office.

At that point, and for the first time, we had an official report on what the X-rays supposedly showed. But it was all in text; no diagrams.

Then, you have to cycle forward to 1971, for Dr. Lattimer's drawings (in his article in Resident and Staff Physician) to get an idea of what the X-rays actually showed (pictorially); and then cycle forward still further until March, 1975, to see the Zapruder film, in color, on the Geraldo Show.

Finally, one has to cycle still further forward to Oct/Nov., 1988, the 25th anniversary of the assassination, to see the autopsy photographs, which I first published in the 1988 in the Carrol and Graf edition of BEST EVIDENCE.

Google and YouTube

Finally, one has to go forward another 8-10 years (approx)--say, 1998-- to get to the Internet, additional years to get to Google, and finally November 2005 to get to You Tube. At that point, it became possible to conveniently put the Z film "on the Internet" and have a debate, albeit in cyberspace, as to what it showed.

So by the end of this process, which unfolds over decades, its possible to "return to the evidence" and view "evidence" that certainly wasn't available in 1963-1968. Specifically, it was possible to view (a) the autopsy photographs (at least, the one's I published in 1988) and (b ) the Z film, and whole assortment of Z film frames (e.g., from the Costella site).

THE DELAYED "RELEASE" OF THE MOST CRITICAL EVIDENCE

Of course, the reason the Zapruder film was locked up for well over a decade, is that the head-snap appeared to show Kennedy was struck from the front (do you understand what would have happened, in the days and months following Dallas, much less at the time of the Vietnam War, if that film was shown publicly?); and at least one reason the autopsy photographs were locked up-- besides "Kennedy family sensitivity" (and all that) --is that they contradict the Bethesda autopsy conclusions (!). And of course there is still another: they contradict what was seen at Parkland Hospital because the President's body was altered, some time in the six hour period "after Dallas" and prior to the 8 P.M. start of the official autopsy at Bethesda.

DECADES LATER- - A TIME FOR THE NEWBIES TO SHARE THEIR WISDOM. . ..

Now, decades later, someone like you comes along, sticks their hand into this barrel of contradictory (and falsified) evidence, retrieves the autopsy photographs and the Z film frames, places a red circle around the right temporal area (in the autopsy photograph), focuses on frame Z-335 or Z-337 (with the big red blob), and says: "See, what-did-I-yell ya?. . this is the way it really happened. See?! There was a bullet exit wound in the right temple!!"

And: "Doncha see? All the doctors who saw the body at Parkland Hospital were wrong! They didn't know what had happened!"

And: "Gee whiz. . what's wrong with all you people? Don't you know that eyewitness testimony is unreliable?!"

etc etc etc.

In short, you have retrieved from "the historical record" (a retrieval largely made possible by the publication of the autopsy photographs in 1988, and the Internet technology, enumerated above, which followed), precisely those items of evidence which have been falsified (and whose release was delayed for so many years, probably because they contradicted what was seen at the time)!

Furthermore, you have then ignored and/or side-stepped the issue of falsified evidence--which is what this is really all about.

And, finally, you have "assembled" the "pieces" of this historical puzzle in a fashion which strikes you as perfectly reasonable and straightforward, and you then proceed to lecture us all that what happened is all so very clear: that it doesn't take a genius; all it takes is someone with your astute thinking and perception, to understand that none of the doctors that day at Dallas understood what was happening (because the Bethesda photographs show different wounds); that they all got it wrong; that we should ignore the contractions between Dallas and Bethesda (which is, in fact, a critical part of the evidence that the body was altered); that we should ignore the evidence of covert interception of the body, another critical part of the evidence that the body was altered; that we should ignore the dozens of witnesses who saw the car stop, or almost come to a complete halt (an essential part of the case that the Zapruder film has been falsified). . . . No no, you say. . .all of that should be ignored. Here, you say, just look at my two red circles, one on the autopsy photograph, and another on Zapruder frame 335. . see. . isn't it obvious what happened?"

This is like a teller in a bank who accepts a bogus check for $ 10,000 and cashes it, because he is focused on the text message ("see, look! It says "$10,000!") while ignoring the numerous indications that the document itself has been falsified.

But that's the way you apparently view all this contradictory data. And you then suggest that we should follow you down this path of ignoring all the data that the most critical evidence has been falsified, and simply join you in this silly and illogical interpretation of the event, that arises from your willingness to march down this path of falsified evidence.

And so you write: "Photographic evidence has shown over and over again the fallibility of eye witness testimony. Not just in this case but in 1000's of cases across the world and country to this very day. All we are seeing is the fallibility of eye witness testimony."

No, Mike Rago. That's all youare "seeing."

What I'm"seeing" is the credulity of someone who is being gulled by false data, and who refuses to look at the problem properly.

Many of the rest of us--who have followed this case for many years--see that pattern, which is an entirely different pattern.

We see a pattern in which the most critical evidence has been falsified, with the most important falsified evidence being "dribbled out," over time, but eagerly lapped up by someone like yourself as "the final say" on this event.

What would you say if, 40 years after the event, someone said that O.J. Simpson was of course innocent, because he was in Honolulu at the time--and that evidence is there for this novel proposition. Why what about the newly revealed "photographic evidence" of plane tickets "proving" that he was in Hawaii, that night, and not in Los Angeles?

That's about how I respond to much of your so-called "analysis" and your statements instructing us that we should Google this or that term so that we may all understand the unreliability of "eyewitness testimony," which you, in your wisdom, now rely upon, while simultaneously ignoring the fact that this very "eyewitness testimony" constitutes some of the most important evidence that the truly critical evidence in this case--and I'm referring here to the autopsy photographs of Kennedy's body, at Bethesda, and critical Zapruder frame imagery--has in fact been falsified.

Which, of course, is exactly the reason it was kept under wraps for so many years.

I don't think any of us like being fooled in any transaction in which we are involved; and I, for one, don't like encountering evidence, again and again, which indicates that Kennedy's murder was a high level political plot, and that critical evidence was falsified to hide and conceal the true circumstances of his death.

DSL

8/21/12; 1:45 PM PDT

Los Angeles, California

Edited by David Lifton
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Tell us some things that all the witnesses said happened that the photographic evidence does not confirm happened.

The limousine came to a complete stop or slowed to a near stop.

There were 59 witnesses who reported that the limousine either slowed dramatically or came to a complete STOP after

the first shot had been fired. These witnesses are not easily dismissed. One witnesses was a Dallas Police Motor Officer who was

escorting the president to the trade mart, Officer James Chaney. He said it came to a complete stop, as did several other officers.

Roy Truly of the TSBD who was outside the building observing said: "I saw the president's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres

down in the area [where it happened] for a second or two or something like that...I just saw it stop."

The wife of Dallas Mayor Earle Cabell ("Dearie") was riding in the mayor's car and reported that the motorcade "stopped dead

still when the noise from the shot was heard."

There are 56 others. Do your own research. You are way behind on all of this.

Edited by Greg Burnham
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So 59 witnesses said either the limo stopped or slowed dramatically. How many said slowed dramatically? How many said the limo did not slow dramatically?

Be specific. And there were more than 59 witnesses that day...

How many said the limo stopped.

How many said the limo slowed.

How many said the limo slowed dramatically.

How many said the limo did not slow at all.

Edited by Mike Rago
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So 59 witnesses said either the limo stopped or slowed dramatically. How many said slowed dramatically? How many said the limo did not slow dramatically?

Be specific. And there were more than 59 witnesses that day...

How many said the limo stopped.

How many said the limo slowed.

How many said the limo slowed dramatically.

How many said the limo did not slow at all.

Do your own research and do get back to us with those answers. I know those answers as do many others here. YOU

are the ignorant one here. I refer you to the work of Vince Palamara.

1) Houston Chronicle Reporter Bo Byers (rode in White House Press Bus) - twice stated that the Presidential Limousine "almost came to a stop, a dead stop"; in fact, he has had nightmares about this. [C-SPAN, 11/20/93, "Journalists Remember The Kennedy Assassination"; see also the 1/94 "Fourth Decade" article by Sheldon Inkol]

2) ABC Reporter Bob Clark (rode in the National Press Pool Car) - Reported on the air that the limousine stopped on Elm Street during the shooting [WFAA/ ABC, 11/22/63]

3) UPI White House Reporter Merriman Smith (rode in the same car as Clark, above) - "The President's car, possibly as much as 150 or 200 yards ahead, seemed to falter briefly..." [uPI story, 11/23/63, as reported in "Four Days", UPI, p. 32]

4) DPD motorcycle officer James W. Courson (one of two mid-motorcade motorcycles) - "The limousine came to a stop and Mrs. Kennedy was on the back. I noticed that as I came around the corner at Elm. Then the Secret Service agent [Clint Hill] helped push her back into the car, and the motorcade took off at a high rate of speed." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 129]

5) DPD motorcycle officer Bobby Joe Dale (one of two rear mid-motorcade motorcycles) - "After the shots were fired, the whole motorcade came to a stop. I stood and looked through the plaza, noticed there was commotion, and saw people running around his [JFK's] car. It started to move, then it slowed again; that's when I saw Mrs. Kennedy coming back on the trunk and another guy [Clint Hill] pushing her back into the car." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 134]

6) Clemon Earl Johnson - "You could see it [the limo] speed up and then stop, then speed up, and you could see it stop while they [sic; Clint Hill] threw Mrs. Kennedy back up in the car. Then they just left out of there like a bat of the eye and were just gone." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 80]

7) Malcolm Summers - "Then there was some hesitation in the caravan itself, a momentary halt, to give the Secret Service man [Clint Hill] a chance to catch up with the car and jump on. It seems to me that it started back up by the time he got to the car…"["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 104]

8) NBC reporter Robert MacNeil (rode in White House Press Bus)---"The President's driver slammed on the brakes - after the third shot…" ["The Way We Were, 1963: The Year Kennedy Was Shot" by Robert MacNeil (1988), p. 193]

9) AP photographer Henry Burroughs (rode in Camera Car #2) - "…we heard the shots and the motorcade stopped." [letter, Burroughs to Palamara, dated 10/14/98]

10) DPD Earle Brown - "…The first I noticed the [JFK's] car was when it stopped..after it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped." [6 H 233]

11) DPD motorcycle officer Bobby Hargis (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists)---"…At that time [immediately before the head shot] the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say 'Get going.' I felt blood hit me in the face and the Presidential car stopped almost immediately after that." [6 H 294; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71.

6/26/95 videotaped interview with Mark Oakes & Ian Griggs: "That guy (Greer) slowed down, maybe his orders was to slow down…slowed down almost to a stop." Like Posner, Hargis feels Greer gave Oswald the chance to kill Kennedy.]

12) DPD D.V. Harkness - "…I saw the first shot and the President's car slow[ed] down to almost a stop…I heard the first shot and saw the President's car almost come to a stop and some of the agents [were] piling on the car." [6 H 309]

13) DPD James Chaney (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists)---stated that the Presidential limousine stopped momentarily after the first shot (according to the testimony of Mark Lane; corroborated by the testimony of fellow DPD motorycle officer Marion Baker: Chaney told him that "…at the time, after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped…Now I have heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely." [2 H 44-45 (Lane)---refering to Chaney's statement as reported in the "Houston Chronicle" dated 11/24/63; 3 H 266 (Baker)]

14) DPD motorcycle officer B.J. Martin (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) - saw JFK's car stop "…just for a moment." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

15) DPD motorcycle officer Douglas L. Jackson (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) - stated "…that the car just all but stopped…just a moment." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

16) Texas Highway Patrolman Joe Henry Rich (drove LBJ's car) - stated that "…the motorcade came to a stop momentarily." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

17) DPD J.W. Foster - stated that "…immediately after President Kennedy was struck…the car in which he was riding pulled to the curb." [CD 897, pp. 20, 21; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97]

18) Secret Service Agent Sam Kinney (driver of the follow-up car behind JFK's limo)---indicates, via his report to Chief Rowley, that Greer hit the gas after the fatal head shot to JFK and after the President's slump to the left toward Jackie. [18 H 731-732]. From the HSCA's 2/26/78 interview of Kinney: "He also remarked that 'when Greer (the driver of the Presidential limousine) looked back, his foot must have come off the accelerator'…Kinney observed that at the time of the first shot, the speed of the motorcade was '3 to 5 miles an hour.'" [RIF#180-10078-10493; author's interviews with Kinney, 1992-1994]

19) Secret Service Agent Clint Hill (follow-up car, rear of limo)---"…I jumped from the follow-up car and ran toward the Presidential automobile. I heard a second firecracker-type noise…SA Greer had, as I jumped onto the Presidential automobile, accelerated the Presidential automobile forward." [18 H 742; Nix film; "The Secret Service" and "Inside The Secret Service" videos from 1995]

20) Secret Service Agent John Ready (follow-up car) - "…I heard what sounded like fire crackers going off from my post on the right front running board. The President's car slowed…" [18 H 750]

21) Secret Service Agent Glen Bennett (follow-up car) - after the fatal head shot "the President's car immediately kicked into high gear." [18 H 760; 24 H 541-542]. During his 1/30/78 HSCA interview, Bennett said the follow-up car was moving at "10-12 m.p.h.", an indication of the pace of the motorcade on Elm Street [RIF#180-10082-10452]

22) Secret Service Agent "Lem" Johns (V.P. follow-up car) - "…I felt that if there was danger [it was] due to the slow speed of the automobile." [18 H 774]. During his 8/8/78 HSCA interview, Johns said that "Our car was moving very slowly", a further indication of the pace of the motorcade on Elm Street [RIF# 180-10074-10079; Altgens photo]

23) Secret Service Agent Winston Lawson (rode in the lead car) - "…I think it [the lead car on Elm Street] was a little further ahead [of JFK's limo] than it had been in the motorcade, because when I looked back we were further ahead." [4 H 352], an indication of the lag in the limo during the assassination.

24) Secret Service Agent William "Tim" McIntyre (follow-up car) - "He stated that Greer, driver of the Presidential limousine, accelerated after the third shot." [RIF#180-10082-10454: 1/31/78 HSCA interview]

25) Mrs. Earle "Dearie" Cabell (rode in the Mayor's car) - the motorcade "stopped dead still when the noise of the shot was heard." [7 H 487; "Accessories After the Fact" by Sylvia Meagher (1967), p. 4; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

26) Phil Willis - "…The [Presidential] party had come to a temporary halt before proceeding on to the underpass." [7 H 497; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 24]

27) Mrs. Phil Willis - Marilyn - after the fatal head shot, "she stated the Presidential limousine paused momentarily and then sped away under the Triple Underpass." [FBI report dated 6/19/64; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 179]

28) Mrs. John Connally - Nellie (rode in JFK's limo) - JFK's car did not accelerate until after the fatal head shot. [4 H 147; WR 50; "Best Evidence" by David Lifton (1988), p. 122]

29) Texas Governor John Connally (rode in JFK's limo and himself a victim of the assassination) - "…After the third shot, I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, 'Bill, get out of line.' And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said 'Get us to a hospital quick'…at about this time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of line." [4 H 133; WR50; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 13];

30) Dallas Morning News reporter Robert Baskin (rode in the National Press Pool Car) - stated that "…the motorcade ground to a halt." ["Dallas Morning News", 11/23/63, p. 2; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

31) Dallas Morning News reporter Mary Woodward (Pillsworth) - "…Instead of speeding up the car, the car came to a halt."; she saw the President's car come to a halt after the first shot. Then, after hearing two more shots, close together, the car sped up. [2 H 43 (Lane); "Dallas Morning News," 11/23/63; 24 H 520; "The Men Who Killed Kennedy," 1988]. She spoke forcefully about the car almost coming to a stop and the lack of proper reaction by the Secret Service in 1993. [C-SPAN, 11/20/93, "Journalists Remember The Kennedy Assassination"; see also the 1/94 "Fourth Decade" article by Sheldon Inkol]

32) AP photographer James Altgens - "He said the President's car was proceeding at about ten miles per hour at the time [of the shooting]…Altgens stated the driver of the Presidential limousine apparently realized what had happened and speeded up toward the Stemmons Expressway." [FBI report dated 6/5/64; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 203] "The car's driver realized what had happened and almost if by reflex speeded up toward the Stemmons Expressway." [AP dispatch, 11/22/63; "Cover-Up" by Stewart Galanor (1998), Document 28]

33) Alan Smith - "…the car was ten feet from me when a bullet hit the President in the forehead…the car went about five feet and stopped." ["Chicago Tribune," 11/23/63, p. 9; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]

34) Mrs. Ruth M. Smith - confirmed that the Presidential limousine had come to a stop. [CD 206, p. 9; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97]

35) TSBD Supervisor Roy Truly - after the first shot "…I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in the area…[it stopped] for a second or two or something like that…I just saw it stop." [3 H 221, 266]

36) L.P. Terry - "…The parade stopped right in front of the building [TSBD]." ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 26]

37) Ochus V. Campbell - after hearing shots, "he then observed the car bearing President Kennedy to slow down, a near stop, and a motorcycle policeman rushed up. Immediately following this, he observed the car rush away from the scene." [22 H 845]

38) Peggy Joyce Hawkins - she was on the front steps of the TSBD and "…estimated that the President's car was less than 50 feet away from her when he was shot, that the car slowed down almost coming to a full stop." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97]

39) Billy Lovelady - "I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped." [22 H 662];

40) An unnamed witness - from his vantage point in the courthouse building, stated that, "The cavalcade stopped there and there was bedlam." ["Dallas Times Herald", 11/24/63; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97]

41) Postal Inspector Harry Holmes (from the Post Office Annex, while viewing through binoculars) - "…The car almost came to a stop, and Mrs. Kennedy pulled loose of him and crawled out over the turtleback of this Presidential car." [7 H 291]. He noticed the car pull to a halt, and Holmes thought: "They are dodging something being thrown." ["The Day Kennedy Was Shot" by Jim Bishop (1967), p. 176]

42) Peggy Burney - she stated that JFK's car had come to a stop. ["Dallas Times Herald", 11/24/63; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97.

Interestingly, during the 11/20/93 C-SPAN "Journalists Remember" conference, Vivian Castleberry of the Dallas Times Herald made the claim that her first cousin, Peggy Burney, was Abraham Zapruder's assistant "and was next to him when he shot his famous film. She called and said, 'Vivian, today I saw the President die.'"! See Sheldon Inkol's article on this conference in the January 1994 "Fourth Decade"]

43) David Broeder - "…The President's car paused momentarily, then on orders from a Secret Service agent, spurted ahead." ["Washington Evening Star", 11/23/63, p. 8]

44) Sam Holland - stated that the Presidential limousine slowed down on Elm Street. [taped interview with Holland conducted in April, 1965]

45) Maurice Orr - noted that the motorcade stopped. [Arch Kimbrough, Mary Ferrell, and Sue Fitch, "Chronology," unpublished manuscript; see also "Conspiracy" by Anthony Summers, pages 20 & 23]

46) Mrs. Herman (Billy P.) Clay - "…When I heard the second and third shots I knew someone was shooting at the President. I did not know if the President had been hit, but I knew something was wrong. At this point the car President Kenedy was in slowed and I, along with others, moved toward the President's car. As we neared the car it sped off." [22 H 641]

47) Mrs. Rose Clark - "…She noted that the President's automobile came almost to a halt following the three shots, before it picked up speed and drove away." [24 H 533]

48) Hugh Betzner - "…I looked down the street and I could see the President's car and another one and they looked like the cars were stopped…then the President's car sped on under the underpass." [19 H 467]

49) John Chism - after the shots he saw "the motorcade beginning to speed up." ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 29]

50) Bill Newman - after the fatal head shot "the car momentarily stopped and the driver seemed to have a radio or phone up to his ear and he seemed to be waiting on some word. Some Secret Service men reached into their car and came out with some sort of machine gun. Then the cars roared off…"; "I've maintained that they stopped. I still say they did. It was only a momentary stop, but…" ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 70; "Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 96]

"I believe Kennedy's car came to a full stop after the final shot." ["JFK: Breaking The Silence" by Bill Sloan (1993), p. 169]

"…I believe it was the passenger in the front seat [Roy Kellerman]---there were two men in the front seat---had a telephone or something to his ear and the car momentarily stopped. Now everywhere that you read about it, you don't read anything about the car stopping. And when I say "stopped" I mean very momentarily, like they hit the brakes and just a few seconds passed and then they floorboarded [sic] and accelerated on." [11/20/97 videotaped interview with Bill Law, Mark Row, & Ian Griggs, as transcribed in "November Patriots" by Connie Kritzberg & Larry Hancock (1998), p. 362]

"One of the two men in the front seat of the car had a telephone in his hand, and as I was looking back at the car covering my son, I can remember seeing the tail lights of the car, and just for a moment they hesitated and stopped, and then they floorboarded [sic] the car and shot off." ["No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), p. 96]

51) Charles Brehm - "Brehm expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move some 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot…After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of sight." [22 H 837-838]

52) Mary Moorman - "She recalls that the President's automobile was moving at the time she took the second picture, and when she heard the shots, and has the impression that the car either stopped momentarily or hesistated and then drove off in a hurry." [22 H 838-839]

53) Jean Hill - "…The motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots rang out and I would say it [JFK's limo] was just approximately, if not - it couldn't have been in the same position, I'm sure it wasn't, but just a very, very short distance from where it had been. It [JFK's limo] was just almost stunned." [6 H 208-209; Hill's testimony on this matter was dramatized in the Oliver Stone movie "JFK" (1991): "The driver had stopped - I don't know what was wrong with that driver." See also "JFK: The Book of the Film" (1992), p. 122. Therein is referenced a March 1991 conversation with Jean Hill.]

54) James Leon Simmons - "…The car stopped or almost stopped." [2/15/69 Clay Shaw trial testimony; "Forgive My Grief Vol. III" by Penn Jones, p. 53; "High Treason" by Groden & Livingstone (1990 Berkley Edition), p. 22]

55) Norman Similas - "…The Presidential limousine had passed me and slowed down slightly." ["Liberty" Magazine, 7/15/64, p. 13; "Photographic Whitewash" by Harold Weisberg (1967), p. 233];

56) Presidential Aide Ken O'Donnell (rode in the follow-up car) - "…If the Secret Service men in the front had reacted quicker to the first two shots at the President's car, if the driver had stepped on the gas before instead of after the fatal third shot was fired, would President Kennedy be alive today? [as quoted in Marrs' "Crossfire," p. 248, based off a passage from O'Donnell & Powers' book "Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye"]. On page 40 of O'Donnell's book "Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye," the aide reports that "Greer had been remorseful all day, feeling that he could have saved President Kenendy's life by swerving the car or speeding suddenly after the first shots." Indeed, William E. Sale, an airman first class aircraft mechanic assigned to Carswell AFB and who was stationed at Love Field before, during, and after the assassination, stated that "when the agent who was driving JFK's car came back to Air Force One he was as white as a ghost and had to be helped back to the plane *[undated Sale letter, provided to the author by Martin Shackelford]

57) Presidential aide Dave Powers (rode in the follow-up car) - "…At that time we were traveling very slowly…At about the time of the third shot, the President's car accelerated sharply." [7 H 473-475]. On 11/22/88, Powers was interviewed by CBS' Charles Kuralt. Powers remarked about the remorse Greer felt about not speeding up in time to save JFK"s life and agreed with Kuralt that, if Greer had sped up BEFORE the fatal head shot instead of afterwards, JFK might still be alive today [CBS, 11/22/88---this is a very dramatic and compelling short interview]. If that weren't enough, the ARRB's Tom Samoluk told me that, during the course of an interview he conducted in 1996 in which the Board was in the process of obtaining Powers' film, Powers said that he agreed with my take on the Secret Service!

58) Texas Senator Ralph Yarborough (rode in LBJ's car) - "…When the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade slowed to what seemed to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop)…After the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was fired, the cavalcade speeded up, gained speed rapidly, and roared away to the Parkland Hospital."; "…The cars all stopped. I put in there [his affidavit], 'I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but for the protection of future Presidents, they [the Secret Service] should be trained to take off when a shot is fired." [7 H 439-440; "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 482; see also "The Men Who Killed Kennedy," 1988: "The Secret Service in the car in front of us kind of casually looked around and were rather slow to react."]

59) First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy (rode in the Presidential limousine) - "We could see a tunnel in front of us. Everything was really slow then…[immediately after shooting] And just being down in the car with his head in my lap. And it just seemed an eternity…And finally I remember a voice behind me, or something, and then I remember the people in the front seat, or somebody, finally knew something was wrong, and a voice yelling, which must have been Mr. Hill, "Get to the hospital," or maybe it was Mr. Kellerman, in the front seat…We were really slowing turning the corner [Houston&Elm]…I remember a sensation of enormous speed, which must have been when we took off…those poor men in the front…" [5 H 179-181] Mary Gallagher reported in her book: "She mentioned one Secret Service man who had not acted during the crucial moment, and said bitterly to me, 'He might just as well have been Miss Shaw!'" ["My Life With Jacqueline Kennedy" by Mary Barelli Gallagher (1969), p. 342---Secret Service Agent Marty Venker and Jackie biographer C. David Heymann confirm that this unnamed agent was indeed Greer ("Confessions of an Ex-Secret Service Agent", p. 25; "A Woman Called Jackie", p. 401)] Jackie also told Gallagher that "You should get yourself a good driver so that nothing ever happens to you" [ibid., p. 351]

* William Manchester, who interviewed Greer, tells us what the driver told Jackie on 11/22/63 at Parkland Hospital: "Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, oh my God, oh my God. I didn't mean to do it[?!?!], I didn't hear[who, Kellerman?], I should have swerved the car[how about hitting the gas!], I couldn't help it[!]. Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, as soon as I saw it[?] I swerved. If only I'd seen it in time! Oh!" (Manchester, p.290). 59 witnesses (10 police officers, 7 Secret Service agents, 37 spectators, 2 Presidential aides, 1 Senator, Governor Connally, and Jackie Kennedy) and the Zapruder film document Secret Service agent William R. Greer's deceleration of the presidential limousine, as well as his two seperate looks back at JFK during the assassination (Greer denied all of this to the Warren Commission-2HGREER[see his entire testimony]). By decelerating from an already slow 11.2 mph, Greer greatly endangered the President's life, and, as even Gerald Posner admitted, Greer contributed greatly to the success of the assassination. When we consider that Greer disobeyed a direct order from his superior, Roy Kellerman, to get out of line BEFORE the fatal shot struck the President's head, it is hard to give Agent Greer the benefit of the doubt. As ASAIC Roy H. Kellerman said: "Greer then looked in the back of the car. Maybe he didn't believe me"("The Death of a President" by William Manchester, p.160). Clearly, Greer was responsible, at fault, and felt remorse. In short, Greer had survivor's guilt.

But, then, stories and feelings changed.

Agent Greer to the FBI 11/22/63: "Greer stated that he first heard what he thought was possibly a motorcycle backfire and glanced around and noticed that the President had evidently been hit [notice that, early on, Greer admits seeing JFK, which the Zapruder proves he did two times before the fatsal head shot occurred]. He thereafter got on the radio and communicated with the other vehicles, stating that they desired to get the President to the hospital immediately [in reality, Greer did not talk on the radio, and Greer went on to deny ever saying this during his WC testimony]…Greer stated that they (the Secret Service) have always been instructed to keep the motorcade moving at a considerable speed inasmuch as a moving car offers a much more difficult target than a vehicle traveling at a very slow speed. He pointed out that on numerous occasions he has attempted to keep the car moving at a rather fast rate, but in view of the President's popularity and desire to maintain close liaison with the people, he has, on occasion, been instructed by the President to "slow down". Greer stated that he has been asking himself if there was any thing he could have done to have avoided this incident, but stated that things happened so fast that he could not account for full developments in this matter(!) [the "JFK-as-scapegoat" theme…and so much for Greer's remorse from earlier the same day!]."(Sibert & O'Neil Report, 11/22/63)

Agent Greer to the FBI 11/27/63: "…he heard a noise which sounded like a motorcycle backfire. On hearing this noise he glanced to his right toward Kellerman and out of the corner of his eye noticed that the Governor appeared to be falling toward his wife [notice that Greer now mentions nothing about seing JFK hit---he does the same thing in his undated report in the WC volumes (18 H 723)] He thereafter recalls hearing some type of outcry after which Kellerman said, "Let's get out of here." He further related that at the time of hearing the sound he was starting down an incline which passes beneath a railroad crossing and after passing under this viaduct, he closed in on the lead car and yelled to the occupants and a nearby police motorcyclist, "Hospital, Hospital! [nothing about using the radio this time out]" Thereafter follows a complete physical description of Greer, as if the FBI agents considered him a suspect, inc. age, height, and color of eyes! (Sibert & O'Neil Report, 11/29/63)

Critical excerpts from Greer's 3/9/64 Warren Commission testimony before Arlen Specter:

Mr. Specter.

Were you able to see anything of President Kennedy as you glanced to the rear?

Mr. Greer.

No, sir; I didn't see anything of the President, I didn't look, I wasn't far enough around to see the President.

Mr. Specter.

When you started that glance, are you able to recollect whether you started to glance before, exactly simultaneously with or after that second shot?

Mr. Greer.

It was almost simultaneously that he had--something had hit, you know, when I had seen him. It seemed like in the same second almost that something had hit, you know, whenever I turned around. I saw him start to fall.

Mr. Specter.

Did you step on the accelerator before, simultaneously or after Mr. Kellerman instructed you to accelerate?

Mr. Greer.

It was about simultaneously.

Mr. Specter.

So that it was your reaction to accelerate prior to the time--

Mr. Greer.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter.

You had gotten that instruction?

Mr. Greer.

Yes, sir; it was my reaction that caused me to accelerate.

Mr. Specter.

Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or after the third shot?

Mr. Greer.

I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator.

Mr. Specter.

Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot?

Mr. Greer.

Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head

[…]

Mr. Specter.

To the best of your current recollection, did you notice that the President had been hit?

Mr. Greer.

No, sir; I didn't know how badly he was injured or anything other than that. I didn't know.

Mr. Specter.

Did you know at all, from the glance which you have described that he had been hit or injured in any way?

Mr. Greer.

I knew he was injured in some way, but I didn't know how bad or what.

Mr. Specter.

How did you know that?

Mr. Greer.

If I remember now, I just don't remember how I knew, but I knew we were in trouble. I knew that he was injured, but I can't remember, recollect, just how I knew there were injuries in there. I didn't know who all was hurt, even.

Mr. Specter.

Are you able to recollect whether you saw the President after the shots as you were proceeding toward Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Greer.

No; I don't remember ever seeing him any more until I got to the hospital, and he was lying across the seat, you know, and that is the first I had seen of him.

Mr. Specter.

Your best recollection is, then, that you had the impression he was injured but you couldn't ascertain the source of that information?

Mr. Greer.

Right. I couldn't ascertain the source.

Warren Commission finding: "The driver, Special Agent William R. Greer, has testified that he accelerated the car after what was probably the second shot...The Presidential car did not stop or almost come to a complete halt after the firing of the first shot or any other shots."(WC Report, page 641)

11/19/64 interview with "Death of a President" author William Manchester [RIF#180-10116-10119]---"After the second shot I glanced back. I saw blood on the Governor's white shirt, and I knew we were in trouble. The blood was coming out of his right breast. When I heard the first shot, I had thought it was a backfire. I was tramping on the accelerator and at the same time Roy was saying, let's get out of here fast."

But remember what Roy Kellerman said: "Greer then looked in the back of the car. Maybe he didn't believe me"("The Death of a President" by William Manchester, p.160).

2/28/78 HSCA interview [RIF#180-10099-10491]---"The first shot sounded to him like a backfire. He did not react to it. After the second shot he turned to his right and saw blood on Governor Connally's shirt. At the same moment he heard Kellerman say "We're hit. Let's get out of here," or words to that effect. He said he immediately accelerated and followed the pilot car to Parkland Hospital [However, DNC Advance man Jack Puterbaugh, who rode in the pilot car, said they "pulled over and let the motorcade pass" (HSCA interview 4/14/78). The Washington Post from 2/28/85 reported Greer as saying that "I just looked straight ahead at the car in which the police chief was leading our way to the hospital"---this is the lead car. Nevertheless, the Daniel film and still photos depict the limousine AHEAD of the lead car, as it appear it was the lead motorcyclists who actually guided Greer to Parkland! (see pp. 21-22 and 59 of "The Third Alternative" by the author)]

Bill Greer passed away from Cancer on 2/23/85.

Edited by Greg Burnham
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The basic problem with your entire analysis, Mr. Rago, is that critical photographic evidence in this case has been forged

You really have got to stop saying that the critical photographic evidence has been forged. I see now you are saying critical evidence, I suppose because of the question I asked Mr. Gallup...how does he know that Toni Foster was running? (He did not answer that yet).

I asked you before if you think that the image of bone being ejected from the skull in Zapruder frame 313 is forged.

Which critical photographic evidence has been forged? The Moorman photo was that forged. That photo was published 2 days after the assassination.

Be specific , which critical evidence has been forged?

NEWBIES is what this case desperately needs Mr. Lifton. They have to correct the errors that the first and second generation researchers made. All they are asking is that the first generation researchers remain accessible and open.

Forgetting about you bizarre theories, which is different problem , there too many myths that have been propagated over the years.

A fatal flaw(there are many) in your argument, sir, is your requirement that the photographic evidence has to have been altered to justify your theory. That is not a winning argument.

How do you know that Toni Foster was running?

Edited by Mike Rago
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So 59 witnesses said either the limo stopped or slowed dramatically. How many said slowed dramatically? How many said the limo did not slow dramatically?

Be specific. And there were more than 59 witnesses that day...

How many said the limo stopped.

How many said the limo slowed.

How many said the limo slowed dramatically.

How many said the limo did not slow at all.

Do your own research and do get back to us with those answers. I know those answers as do many others here. YOU

are the ignorant one here.

I do not have to do the numbers. Your statement is good enough. You said the witnesses said the limo stopped OR slowed.

It's ok by me if you do not break down the numbers. If you want to prove your point(which you cannot) you have to break down the numbers.

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