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[Pamela Brown]

hi William again... i do not believe that a hole in the floorpan was even acknowleged by any of the authoritites, i have never found any further information on such, much was of little significance to the investigators, nor those who received their reports..imo...b

I have communicated with Robert Frazier, the SA who led the FBI forensic exam of the limo thirteen hours after the assassination, and though they did pull up at least the edges of the rear carpet, they did not make any notation of a hole in the floorboard. That does not mean there wasn't one, just that they did not observe one. As it is very distressing that the entire exam was done in a very casual manner, in my opinion, as they did not even ask for extra lighting in the dark White House Garage, we can use the information the FBI team gleaned as clues, but not to rule other things out, it seems to me.

The rear seat carpet was cleaned by Vaughn Ferguson in an attempt to get the limo ready for LBJ to use in the funeral on Monday (of course, this was just a ploy; and of course, the car was not used). Ferguson then ordered new carpeting which arrived later in the month and was installed before he drove the car to Dearborn and to Hess & Eisenhardt in December. If there were a hole in the floorpan it would have been evident at that time. Ferguson did not say anything about it. Another opportunity to see a hole in the floorpan would have occurred, of course, when the limo was at the Experimental Garage at Dearborn or when it was gutted down to metal at H&E for the rebuild.

So, again, this is an open topic, imo.

Another idea to consider is how a lone gunman with an out-of-date rifle was supposed to have killed one person and nearly killed another without damaging the limousine in any truly substantial way. To me, the lack of damage points in the direction of this being a professional hit by people instructed not to damage the car.

[Pamela Brown]

FYI...

limo grafic..History Matters Archive - HSCA Appendix to Hearings - Volume VI, pg

http://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol6/html/HSCA_Vol6_0028b.htm

As we can see from this diagram, the HSCA, like the WC before it, were very meticulous about providing details as to the horizontal measurements of the limo, but completely forgot about the vertical measurements.

Hello,

Do you know how the limo was oriented in the street at the time of the headshot at zapruder frame 313?

Not yet, but I hope to.

That is a very good question and a good project for a study. I have been trying to nail that down since ITTC in 08. I am currently working with a Jackdaw model of DP and have a lot of questions about the placement of the limo on Elm Street and the angle of the limo in relation to the SN. ( I don't think ITTC got that right either. )

Until I can tell you exactly where I think the limo was at Z313, we can start with the premise that it probably was not where the govt has tried to tell us it was. ITTC may have used the X on Elm Street, but that seems just a matter of convenience.

Tom Purvis and Don Robedeau have both done good work on this; perhaps they will chime as to what their logic was, as I think they are members. Here is a link to Don's excellent map:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=14070

Edited August 9, 2012 by Pamela Brown

[Pamela Brown]

Thank you, Bernice. I've read about that hole in the floorboard, but forgot to mention it above. That hole is kind of like the trim dent and the dent on the back of the rear view mirror. They may, or may not, have been caused by a bullet. I would love to hear if that hole in the floor (as well as the trim and mirror dents) were examined for lead residue. I also wonder if any photos were taken of the floorboard hole. Maybe Pamela can enlighten us.

BTW, I loved the last line of that memo...

"There appears to be little significance to the alleged location of this hole in the Presidential Limousine at this time........."

If that is indeed a bullet hole, I would say that it is of extreme significance!

Nothing was noted by RF or Vaughn Ferguson, but that certainly does not settle anything. There have been many theories about damage to the limo that came from places that may have had some connection to it, so it seems wiser to be inclusive of them rather than exclusive.

The FBI team did what I consider a cursory exam of the limo, though it did include removing the rear seat and pulling up at least the edges of the rear carpeting. When Ferguson had the rear seat carpeting replaced it should have been evident then. Also, when it was gutted for the rebuild, it should have been obvious if there was one.

[J. William King]

Thanks for all of that, Pamela. If I remember right, the hole in the floorboard was supposed to have been found during the teardown. If Mr. Ferguson himself replaced the carpets before taking the car to Dearborn, I would think that he would have seen it and mentioned it somewhere. His reports seem to have been pretty detailed.

It still surprises me on how they treated the car after the assassination. I'm not even bothered that much by the fact that they didn't seem to examine it very carefully. After all, they thought they had their man, and they thought they knew how it was done. I don't think they knew at the time that we would still be slogging through every little tiny detail 50 years later.

What surprises me is that they actually seemed more concerned about the car than the President. Washing it at the hospital, cleaning it right away and replacing the windshield in the garage, and even planning to use it for the funeral? It also floors me that they drove it from DC to Dearborn, then on to H&E in Cincinnati. I would have thought that flying it, or putting it in a closed trailer or even covering it on a flatbed would have been a better way to transport it. Also, why rebuild it at all? Is it the only car the government owns?

Of course, I also wonder why they sent JBC's suit to the cleaners afterwards. What was the point? Maybe people owned fewer cars and suits back in 1963. But that's a subject for another thread.

Edited August 12, 2012 by J. William King

[Peter McGuire]

Perhaps this image is one of the reasons for the discontinued distribution of this portion of "The Men Who Killed Kennedy." That section also includes eyewitness testimony about the existence of a through-and-through round bullet hole entering the front windshield of the limousine.

The late Dr. Revalia Ganges who witnessed the through and through hole in the front window of the JFK Presidential limousine.

Her description also matches George Whitaker's written and verbal testimony regarding the bullet hole to the front.

It also confirms the medical observation at Parkland that JFK's neck wound was a shot from the front.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Peter McGuire

[Pamela Brown]

Perhaps this image is one of the reasons for the discontinued distribution of this portion of "The Men Who Killed Kennedy." That section also includes eyewitness testimony about the existence of a through-and-through round bullet hole entering the front windshield of the limousine.

The late Dr. Revalia Ganges who witnessed the through and through hole in the front window of the JFK Presidential limousine.

Her description matches the Ford Manager who saw the limo glass with the bullet hole fired from the front.

It also confirms the medical observation at Parkland that JFK's neck wound was a shot from the front.

"The Ford Manager" is an incorrect description. Mr Whittaker worked at the Rouge and so far has shown no conection to the limo other than repeating things said by others with better credentials.

[Peter McGuire]

"The Ford Manager" is an incorrect description. Mr Whittaker worked at the Rouge and so far has shown no conection to the limo other than repeating things said by others with better credentials.

George Whitaker Sr.

GEORGE WHITAKER Sr, a "Ford Motor Car Company" Rouge plant windshields worker, and Dr. Galanges discuss the bullet hole on the Men Who Killed Kennedy.

A doctor at Parkland Hospital, Dr. Galanges, stated that she saw a bullet hole in the windshield of the president's limo which had penetrated the car from the front. This would be further supported by the fact that LBJ spirited the limo away to the Ford Motor plant to have its windshield replaced just days after the assassination. Written and verbal testimony from Ford workers including Mr. Whitaker are also published discussing their role in replacing that windshield.

In this episode, "The Smoking Gun", focuses on significant facts and evidence pertaining to the assassination and cover-up that were hidden from the public and completely ignored in The Warren Commission's official report.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAW-bxxZfcM

[Peter McGuire]

"The Ford Manager" is an incorrect description. Mr Whittaker worked at the Rouge and so far has shown no conection to the limo other than repeating things said by others with better credentials.

What in the world are you talking about Pam? The other people you may be referring to are his subordinates who work for him. He came upon the situation where he worked after the evidence had been destroyed. He states that here and also provided a written statement of what happened as explained by Doug Weldon.

George Whitaker Sr. ( who held a 'managerial position' at Ford )

GEORGE WHITAKER Sr, a "Ford Motor Car Company" Rouge plant windshield worker, and Dr. Galanges discuss the bullet hole on the Men Who Killed Kennedy.

A doctor at Parkland Hospital, Dr. Galanges, stated that she saw a bullet hole in the windshield of the president's limo which had penetrated the car from the front. This would be further supported by the fact that LBJ spirited the limo away to the Ford Motor plant to have its windshield replaced just days after the assassination. Written and verbal testimony from Ford workers including Mr. Whitaker are also published discussing their role in replacing that windshield.

In this episode, "The Smoking Gun", focuses on significant facts and evidence pertaining to the assassination and cover-up that were hidden from the public and completely ignored in The Warren Commission's official report.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Peter McGuire

[Pamela Brown]

"The Ford Manager" is an incorrect description. Mr Whittaker worked at the Rouge and so far has shown no conection to the limo other than repeating things said by others with better credentials.

What in the world are you talking about Pam? The other people you may be referring to are his subordinates who work for him. He came upon the situation where he worked after the evidence had been destroyed. He states that here and also provided a written statement of what happened as explained by Doug Weldon.

My name is Pamela, not "Pam".

Mr. Whittaker worked at the Rouge, he was a union employee. The B building at the Rouge was an Assembly Plant. There was no place for the limo there.

What Whittaker told Weldon appears to be a compilation of what others who actually had access to the limo at the teardown said. In addition, Vaughn Ferguson, who was with the limo that week-end, played golf at Dearborn and undoubtedly shared some of his experiences with his colleagues. Ferguson had pieces of the bloody back seat leather. Ferguson was a FMC employee, the liaison from FMC/DC to the White House Garage

Mr. Whittaker had no connection to the limo. The limo had no connection to the Rouge.

When the limo was in Dearborn, it was taken to the Experimental Garage on Oakridge St. A number of stories about it originated there.

Perhaps you are unaware that I was the one who paid to have the Henry Ford Museum researchers vet Mr. Whittaker's story for Weldon. With all due respect, that should have been done before anyone 'believed' it.

[Pamela Brown]

Just a follow-up on the discussion regarding the position of the limo on Elm Street at Z313. I have heard from Gary Mack that the "X" visible in the street was used for ITTC, and that the "X" was apparently placed there at the say-so of Robert Groden. I have msged Robert but have not heard back from him yet as to his logic in making the determination of that spot.

[Pat Speer]

here is all the information on the bullet hole in the floor pan, not much..but with Bill kelly's work on the SS documents being released , it may eventually be made clearer...???.fwiw b

I actually followed up on this when I first started researching the case. I saw that there was another document from Rosen from the next day, and ordered it from the Archives. It turns out that Rosen "investigated" the possibility there had been a hole in the floor pan not by interviewing those who'd worked on the car, but by calling SS bigshot Robert Bouck, and asking him if such a hole had been discovered. Bouck said "no." End of investigation.

Rosen, of course, was the FBI whiz kid tasked with investigating the basic facts of the case who'd refused to read the Bethesda autopsy report. Because...well, just because...

Edited September 1, 2012 by Pat Speer

[Bernice Moore]

here is all the information on the bullet hole in the floor pan, not much..but with Bill kelly's work on the SS documents being released , it may eventually be made clearer...???.fwiw b

I actually followed up on this when I first started researching the case. I saw that there was another document from Rosen from the next day, and ordered it from the Archives. It turns out that Rosen "investigated" the possibility there had been a hole in the floor pan not by interviewing those who'd worked on the car, but by calling SS bigshot Robert Bouck, and asking him if such a hole had been discovered. Bouck said "no." End of investigation.

Rosen, of course, was the FBI whiz kid tasked with investigating the basic facts of the case who'd refused to read the Bethesda autopsy report. Because...well, just because...

The word typical comes to mind..re ''Bouck said "no." End of investigation.

Rosen, of course, was the FBI whiz kid tasked with investigating the basic facts of the case who'd refused to read the Bethesda autopsy report. Because...well, just because...

Pathetic isn't and wasn't it and still is.....thanks Pat. take care...best b

Edited September 1, 2012 by Bernice Moore

[Peter McGuire]

My name is Pamela, not "Pam".

You are Ms. Brown to me. You had every opportunity to chime in on the 5 threads that I posted on the matter recently, but apparently had no time.

Let me make this real clear - I don't believe a word you say, Ms. Brown.

Edited September 2, 2012 by Peter McGuire

[Pamela Brown]

My name is Pamela, not "Pam".

You are Ms. Brown to me. You had every opportunity to chime in on the 5 threads that I posted on the matter recently, but apparently had no time.

Let me make this real clear - I don't believe a word you say, Ms. Brown.

Why are you taking an adversarial stance?

What 'five threads' are you referencing?

[Pamela Brown]

www.in-broad-daylight.com is in the process of being taken down. www.ss100x.com is the new commercial site and contains all the limo information.

Before long, in-broad-daylight.com will be back up, focusing on issues of the assassination itself.