Jump to content
The Education Forum

Help Please - need to see FBI Item D-77: Kleins orders


Recommended Posts

  • 1 month later...
  • Replies 124
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

On 8/9/2012 at 1:35 PM, David Josephs said:

Only a fool would believe the HIDELL order was the only C20-T750 ordered in all those months...

Do you believe that any orders for said Item # would have the Seriel [sic] # and VC # written on it JUST LIKE THE HIDELL ORDER?

C'mon now Dave.... since there HAD to be other C20-T750 orders... did Waldman write the seriel [sic] # shipped on ALL of them?

OF COURSE Klein's wrote the same information (serial # and VC #) on their other orders they received from other customers. Why WOULDN'T they?

But the bigger question continues to be:

Why would you, David Josephs, EXPECT the FBI to have saved or extracted from Klein's files any OTHER orders that WEREN'T for the "C2766" rifle they were specifically searching for? It makes no sense whatsoever for the FBI to say to themselves:

Well gee, guys, we'd better pull out a bunch of other order forms in these Klein's files besides just this one for the C2766 rifle, because if we don't show that other similar orders were processed in the same manner by Klein's, then a bunch of crackpot conspiracy theorists in the future just might claim that we FBI guys faked this C2766 order form. So let's pull this form here for another C20-T750 order which says that Klein's shipped a rifle with the serial number of D4577 on it; and let's save this random form too, with the serial number P9027. Neither of these rifles means a damn thing as far as the C2766 gun is concerned, but we can't be too careful, because those rabid CTers can be brutal, you know! Of course, I'm sure those same crazy CTers will now say we faked the D4577 and P9027 order forms too. So it really won't make any difference even if we saved every C20-T750 order in the Klein's files, because, as we all know here in the Bureau, the crackpot CTers of the world think the FBI would go to ANY LENGTHS to frame Lee Harvey Oswald, regardless of how many dozens of Klein's orders they had to fake and manufacture from whole cloth to do it.

Edited by David Von Pein
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why would you, David Josephs, EXPECT the FBI to have saved or extracted from Klein's files any OTHER orders that WEREN'T for the "C2766" rifle they were specifically searching for?

I wouldn't.  I would expect the microfilm to have the other few hundred orders from that time period... or any of the other films Kleins had to store their orders...

Finding a C20-T750 order, shipped and received as a 41" FC rifle supports their assertion, that it was happening that way.

Again Dave...  not a single of the other 99 rifles has ever been SEEN, let alone shipped on a real order.

And, as we both know, the microfilm is gone from the canister at the archives...  Waldman was given a copy in early December, according to the FBI.

You think that still exists?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, David Josephs said:

I would expect the microfilm to have the other few hundred orders from that time period... or any of the other films Kleins had to store their orders...

And that microfilm no doubt did contain that very thing (i.e., lots and lots of orders from non-"Hidell" customers). Why would you think the microfilm DIDN'T contain such orders?

You think that just because we haven't SEEN all of the other order forms on the microfilm, this means those orders never existed at all? Why would you think that?

 

Quote

Finding a C20-T750 order, shipped and received as a 41" FC rifle supports their assertion, that it was happening that way.

Again Dave...  not a single of the other 99 rifles has ever been SEEN, let alone shipped on a real order.

So what? You think the other 99 customers should have come forward and exclaimed: Look! I also purchased a rifle from Klein's by mail order! ?

Maybe many people in the past DID make such a exclamation about getting a Carcano from Klein's. I don't know. But I certainly don't think it's suspicious that you and I don't have personal knowledge of such a declaration from a former Klein's customer.

And I have no idea why you're saying this:

"...let alone shipped on a real order."

How on Earth did you acquire enough guts to make such a loony claim, David J.? "A real order"??? WTF?

 

Quote

And, as we both know, the microfilm is gone from the canister at the archives...  Waldman was given a copy in early December, according to the FBI.

You think that still exists?

I haven't the slightest idea. But I have no reason whatsoever to think that William J. Waldman of Klein's Sporting Goods was lying when he testified about the Hidell/Oswald rifle purchase.

And let's face facts, David --- if Bill Waldman WASN'T a big fat l-i-a-r, then Klein's definitely DID mail the C2766 rifle to "A. Hidell" in Dallas on March 20, 1963. And that's a FACT that most conspiracy theorists simply do not want to face.

My guess would be that the original microfilm was eventually returned to Klein's. It was, after all, the property of Klein's and it contained mostly material that had no bearing whatsoever on the JFK murder investigation. So why WOULDN'T such documents be returned to Klein's under those circumstances?

Edited by David Von Pein
Link to comment
Share on other sites

David

I think you are 100% correct .

We found out through the investigation by Fonzi into the identity of Maurice Bishop that more than one agent used the fake name ¨Maurice Bishop¨ other than David Phillips. Any agent of the CIA could have used the Hidell alias. Well, LNs say it had to be Oswald who ordered the rifle under the alias Hidell because his handwriting is on the order form.

What BS. The FBI has agents who make a living studying the habits of forgers from all over the world. They take courses in forgery and as a result they become expert forgers themselves.

So if the FBI gives me a document and says it´s so and so who wrote this document or if Gary Mack (God rest his soul) gives me a document and says he got it from the FBI and they say so and so wrote this document I´ll say ... okay thanks and I´ll walk away looking for the nearest trash can.

In 1963 the FBI and the CIA had the expertise to forge photos, documents, films, etc you name it. They covered up the investigation. We will never get the truth from them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to give David Josephs props for actually arguing with DVP on this.

 

Because DVP is so much enamored of his mentor Bugliosi,  he now even copies not just his invective, but also his upside down JFK logic.  Which goes like this:  the critics, even though they are arguing for Oswald's defense, have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt all elements of their case.  Even though Oswald never had a lawyer to issue subpoenas and cross examine witnesses.  In fact he never had any defense at all in any way.

His side does not have to bear the burden of proof, even though they could subpoena witnesses and ask any question they wanted of any witness they called. 

Only in the topsy turvy world of Reclaiming History, as adapted by DVP could such a set of circumstances exist.  And recall, like Posner, Bugliosi was a lawyer.  A lawyer who once implied in his book that it was better for the cause of justice that Oswald was killed and could not testify.  

Only in the bizarro enclosed world of DVP do such rules exist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One only need to see what Scibor did at the time and then later on to get a feel for what may have transpired that night.

btw - Scibor claims there was a MASTER LIST of serial #'s related to VC #'s.  That list would also have those 100 rifles...

 

Dave, you just keep right on guessing...  not a single person with a rifle from that 100 lot - as was attributed to Oswald - has ever come forward...

The FBI cannot find or possess any of these 100 rifles...  while Waldman claims they were all removed...  to where?

And finally, the FBI refers repeatedly to a June 1962 and March 1963 shipment of FC rifles to Kleins.  We have the FC order from Kleins with only the Feb shipment shown...

How does Kleins have 2 shipments of FC rifles from Crescent NOT recorded on that order Dave?
Rupp first removes rifles in AUG 1962...  yet the shipment discussed was rec'd in June 1962 - could not have been from Crescent or Rupp...

Dance around all you like Dave...  you can't get away from the evidence left behind

 

 

Edited by David Josephs
Link to comment
Share on other sites

David Josephs said:

The FBI cannot find or possess any of these 100 rifles...

Why would they have even TRIED to locate any of those other 99 rifles? Why would they even CARE?

Answer: They wouldn't care. And that's because NONE of those other 99 rifles had the serial number C2766 on them. Ergo, those rifles had NO RELATION TO THE JFK ASSASSINATION INVESTIGATION.

Only a rabid conspiracy theorist would even begin to care about this type of thing. It's just one more example (among hundreds) of CTers obsessing over something that is totally meaningless.

And I'll ask once again this related question (which went unanswered five years ago when I first posed it)....

"Has anybody ever seen any other order forms filled out by Seaport Traders for other revolvers shipped to non-Oswald customers? I never have. Have you, David [Josephs]? And if you haven't, are you going to start belly-aching about fake evidence in the Seaport files regarding the revolver that Oswald ordered?" -- DVP; August 2012

Edited by David Von Pein
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Because DVP is so much enamored of his mentor Bugliosi, he now even copies not just his invective, but also his upside down JFK logic. Which goes like this: the critics, even though they are arguing for Oswald's defense, have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt all elements of their case.

I'd be satisfied if the conspiracy theorists could just prove ONE TINY ELEMENT of their "case for conspiracy" in the John F. Kennedy murder case, let alone "all elements of their case".

To date --- Nada!

It's also interesting to note that Jim DiEugenio seems to think everybody looking into the JFK case has to pretend we're inside a courtroom. The "Oswald was never proven guilty in a courtroom" defense is always a convenient excuse for staunch CTers to use, even though those CTers know they can't prove a conspiracy existed in the JFK case if their lives depended on it.

Edited by David Von Pein
Link to comment
Share on other sites

James DiEugenio said:

...let me ask DVP this: Do you understand why the point Josephs is trying to make is important to your side?

I don't consider it important to the "Lone Assassin side" at all, quite obviously.

Because even without seeing and examining various other non-Oswald "C20-T750" rifle orders in the Klein's files, there is ample proof from the available documents that were photographed by the FBI and the Warren Commission that Klein's Sporting Goods positively and without doubt did obtain Rifle C2766 in a shipment from Crescent Firearms in New York City in February of 1963 [see Waldman Exhibit No. 3 (Carton No. 3376; Line 3) and Waldman Exhibit No. 4 (Line 836) and Waldman Exhibit No. 5], with that exact rifle then being sold by Klein's to "A. Hidell" (aka Lee Harvey Oswald) on 3/20/63 [see Waldman Exhibit No. 7].

Do conspiracy theorists think that ALL of those Waldman exhibits are fake documents? I guess many CTers (including David Josephs) must, indeed, think that every one of those Klein's documents was manufactured by the FBI in order to frame Oswald. An incredibly silly notion, to be sure.

If, Jim, you mean: Is this topic important to Lone Assassin believers, because by examining other C20-T750 Klein's orders, it would prove that the Oswald/Hidell rifle order is then legitimate? Well, since I don't think the same way CTers do, I have no reason to believe that there was any fakery or monkey business involved with the Klein's microfilmed files in the first place. So my opinion about all those Waldman exhibits I just linked above would not have changed one bit---with or without the ability to see additional Klein's rifle orders.

To me, the "suspicion" being raised by David Josephs concerning the Klein's microfilm is just another example of a conspiracist attempting to insert doubt and controversy and potential fakery into the JFK evidence where none exists (and never did exist) in the first place.

Edited by David Von Pein
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, there we go more bloviating from the steamship called DVP.

 

Let me ask again, this time try and keep it below forty words.  I would be overjoyed if you would just say either yes, no, or I think I do, and then explain.

 

Do you understand the importance of what Mr. Josephs is trying to say to your argument, and the late Gary Mack's?

Edited by James DiEugenio
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

Why would they have even TRIED to locate any of those other 99 rifles? Why would they even CARE?

The FBI claimed that Klein's had substituted the longer, heavier FC rifle for the one ordered, a TS 36" carbine.

Klein's has the 100 rifle shipment from Feb 22, 1963 until Nov 22, 1963 while advertising a 36" TS carbine from mid '62 thru Feb '63 when the ad is changed to 

58ec0ba855d60_April1963adforC20-T750a40inchrifleat7lbs-sameclipartsameprice.jpg.08be0272fe3431cb5acd848cf992aace.jpg

From April 1963 on, this ad runs with the hopes of selling some of the 100 rifles they supposedly just received.

The only rifle in inventory to satisfy orders for this ad - and the only order offered as evidence from Kleins, is the FC 40" rifle.

Any order for a C20-T750 between April 1962 and Feb 1963 was shipped WHAT Dave?

One last thing...  each of the ads up to April 1963 says "Rear sight adjustable for elevation"  
The rifles from Crescent - either the FC or TS - were REAR OPEN SIGHT rifles.

The revised order from Kleins' for "91 TS" rifles is the "Adjustable sight" model....    So basically for a year and right up to Feb 1963, rifles shipped for a C20-T750 order were not only heavier and more expensive but an entirely different rear sight as well...   

58ec0c7b6de50_KleinsadshowsC20-T750hadadjustablesights.jpg.21b1232c5a891c920255b09626c95cde.jpg

 

Dave, the FBI didn't look because there was nothing there for them to see...  as a result, their search would have disproved their story about the FC shipped for the TS.  Furthermore, the microfilm would also hold the key to destroying the bogus Klein's story...  In true FBI fashion, the film is gone.

If the evidence told the story needed, it would have been offered.  Instead, they created evidence which proves itself... yet fizzles away in the light of anything outside the closed loop of evidence.

You ever wonder how all the copier noise disappears only behind the serial numbers?

 

 

 

Edited by David Josephs
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok Dave...  help us out....

Which FBI report are we to trust?  The one signed by all FBI agents saying the microfilm stays with Waldman... or the one only by Dolan who claims he took the film?

These reports are back to back in the WCD's.

 

 

 

Edited by David Josephs
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...