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Help Please - need to see FBI Item D-77: Kleins orders


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19 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

No Dave, the evidence was not PLANTED... it was CREATED AFTER THE FACT.

But it was employees of KLEIN'S and SEAPORT TRADERS who did the actual "digging up" of the "Hidell" documents. It wasn't the FBI who did that digging. They wouldn't have had the slightest idea where to look. So, do you think some of the Klein's & Seaport employees were part of a cover-up plot too?

As for Ruth Paine's "No" answers....

She simply did not see the rifle when it was unpacked from her car. Why is that impossible? She had no reason to take INVENTORY of every last item owned by Lee and Marina. You're expecting too much from Ruth.

But we KNOW, via Marina's testimony, that there WAS definitely a rifle in that blanket in Ruth's garage in October of '63. (But you don't believe a word uttered by Marina, do you?)

BTW, if Ruth was REALLY out to frame Oswald, then why on Earth didn't she attempt to FRAME him further by saying "Yes, I saw the rifle" when she was asked? Any idea why her patsy-framing efforts were so anemic in this regard, David?

 

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Just now, David Von Pein said:

But it was employees of KLEIN'S and SEAPORT TRADERS who did the actual "digging up" of the "Hidell" documents. It wasn't the FBI who did that digging. They wouldn't have had the slightest idea where to look. So, do you think some of the Klein's & Seaport employees were part of a cover-up plot too?

As for Ruth Paine's "No" answers....

She simply did not see the rifle when it was unpacked from her car. Why is that impossible? She had no reason to take INVENTORY of every last item owned by Lee and Marina. You're expecting too much from Ruth.

But we KNOW, via Marina's testimony, that there WAS definitely a rifle in that blanket in Ruth's garage in October of '63. (But you don't believe a word uttered by Marina, do you?)

BTW, if Ruth was REALLY out to frame Oswald, then why on Earth didn't she attempt to FRAME him further by saying "Yes, I saw the rifle" when she was asked? Any idea why her patsy-framing efforts were so anemic in this regard, David?

 

No Dave...  it was Waldman and Scibor at Kleins.  The FBI was there until 4am.  I posted the conflicting reports - despite what you think, one says one thing whiole the other says the opposite.    Marina did NOT prove there was a rifle anywhere... and Ruth/Michael contradict her statement in any event...  

Ruth framed Oswald?  who said anything about that in this thread?  That's a different story entirely...  

Back to Marina's statement...  if Marina is going to be used for what she says... she contradicts Jeanne's account completely...  so who's lying here, Marina or Jeanne?

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course in the morning I told him that I was worried, and that we can have a lot of trouble, and I asked him, "Where is the rifle? What did you do with it?"
He said, that he had left it somewhere, that he had buried it, it seems to me, somewhere far from that place, because he said dogs could find it by smell. I don't know---I am not a criminologist.

Gee Dave, how much BS from Marina's mouth will you believe?

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7 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

No Dave...  it was Waldman and Scibor at Klein's.  

Just as I said --- it was KLEIN'S people doing the actual search for documents. Not the FBI.

So both Waldman and Scibor are cover-up operatives and liars, eh?

 

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Gee Dave, how much BS from Marina's mouth will you believe?

I think a better question is this one:

How many people do CTers want to label as "liars" and/or "cover-up operatives" in the JFK case?

The number must surely be approaching triple digits by now.

Edited by David Von Pein
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OMG talk about a splitting hairs.  Jeanne did say that, but she heard it from Marina.  Except, does anyone know when or where Marina admitted to saying this in public?  Because if she did not, then I think there should be a question mark around it.  

But of course, its hard to keep Marina on the same page with the DeMohrenschildts in the cover up, isn't it?

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever show that rifle to the De Mohrenschildts?
Mrs. OSWALD. I know that De Mohrenschildts had said that the rifle had been shown to him, but I don't remember that.

 

The problem here is that Marina's (BS) story is that Oswald buried the rifle in a field. He then went to retrieve it a few days after the Walker shooting. She told the Bureau that it was not recovered until Easter Sunday night. 

Yet the WC put the DeM "rifle in the closet story" the day before.  

Further, she said that he picked up the buried rifle in a green military raincoat.  Is there any such garment in the Oswald clothing left behind? I don't recall it.

Further, she told the SS that after Oswald retrieved the buried rifle, she did not see it for a few days.  Which again, puts her at odds with the DeM story.

Can everyone imagine what a good defense lawyer would do with this material in a court room?  I mean the jury would be sitting there in utter disbelief.

 

 

 

Edited by James DiEugenio
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DVP: Just as I said --- it was KLEIN'S people doing the actual search for documents. Not the FBI.

Mr. Josephs  just wrote that the FBI was there until four o'clock!  Were they just drinking coffee or listening to baseball games?

Edited by James DiEugenio
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58 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Mr. Josephs  just wrote that the FBI was there until four o'clock!  Were they just drinking coffee or listening to baseball games?

But it was the KLEIN'S people searching through their OWN files. Not the FBI. The FBI agents probably WERE just sitting around drinking coffee and waiting for the Klein's employees to find the right "C2766" order (which, of course, they eventually did find).

BTW, there's no baseball in late November, Jimmy. But if you like to listen to baseball games, I can help with that....

http://dvp-video-audio-archive.blogspot.com/2016/12/dvp-audio-video-master-index.html#Baseball-Games-And-Highlights

 

Edited by David Von Pein
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Ok, how about basketball Davey?

Speaking of which--another nice pivot by you.  

Why is the canister empty today if it backs up the official story?  Why are the entries blanked out and written over?  And why would the VIce Presidnet be there of all people?  Like he was handling this stuff on a day to day basis?

They might do that at a local KFC, but not a company as big as Klein's. Ever heard of a guy named J. A. Mueller?

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27 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Ok, how about basketball Davey?

That's better, Jimmy. (But I'm not a very big hoops fan, so I don't have any classic basketball contests archived. Sorry.)

 

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Why is the canister empty today if it backs up the official story?  

I haven't the slightest idea why it's empty. (But are we SURE that the "empty canister" story is the absolute truth? Forgive me if I don't take everything said by a CTer as Gospel. Although I did earlier speculate that the FBI returned the original microfilm to Klein's at some point in time. So an "empty canister" would be perfectly consistent with that theory.)

 

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Why are the entries blanked out and written over?  

Every single entry seen in Waldman #4 looks identical on all pages. You think the evil-doers faked EVERY line on all pages of Waldman 4? Please, Jim, tell me WHY they needed to fake EVERY serial number on those pages, when only ONE shows "C2766"?

And is this "C2766" reference a fake too, Jim?....

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0361b.htm

 

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And why would the Vice President be there of all people?  Like he was handling this stuff on a day to day basis?

They might do that at a local KFC, but not a company as big as Klein's.

Well, Jimmy, maybe it was because this was the investigation into the murder of THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. Ya think THAT might mean a person kinda "high up" in the Klein's executive chain just MIGHT want to get involved?

 

Edited by David Von Pein
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You don't want to know who Mueller is?

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Ok, you don't know.

He was in charge of the receiving department at Klein's.  

He could have helped on the whole issue of when did C2766 come into Chicago.

Since he signed off on incoming shipments.

And there lies a tale that I will let David Josephs tell.  But hey its a little late in Hoosier country is it not? 

Edited by James DiEugenio
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42 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Ok, you don't know.

He [J.A. Mueller] was in charge of the receiving department at Klein's.  

He could have helped on the whole issue of when did C2766 come into Chicago.

Since he signed off on incoming shipments.

Okay, Jim. Thanks for the info. I don't think I had heard that name (J.A. Mueller) in the past. (If I ever did hear of him, I've forgotten about it.) :)

But, anyway, I'd say the people that Klein's utilized to locate the Oswald rifle order on the morning of 11/23/63 did a very effective job --- even without the assistance of Mr. Mueller. By 4:00 AM, they had the information the FBI was seeking. Not too bad, I'd say.

 

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But hey it's a little late in Hoosier country is it not? 

The clock doesn't mean much to me anymore, Jim. I'm retired now. So I don't have to deal with the 9-to-5 grind any longer. (Thankfully.) :)

 

Edited by David Von Pein
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DVP Josephs posted a photo above showing  the  empty canister at the NA of all places.

I know  you  love the OJ story so that would be like the NA showing a gift box containing  the  bloody glove....but there's  no glove in it :)

I  just  cannot  get  over  the fact that when the  FBI was looking  at the files, and if they were all kosher two months  before  and after, that they would  have shown  all of those files to strengthen  their  case.

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On ‎4‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 8:24 PM, David Von Pein said:

Every single entry seen in Waldman #4 looks identical on all pages. You think the evil-doers faked EVERY line on all pages of Waldman 4? Please, Jim, tell me WHY they needed to fake EVERY serial number on those pages, when only ONE shows "C2766"?

They didn't NEED to fake every line... there are 100 rifles listed, there are 10 international packing slips with 10 rifles each...  This shipment of rifles DID come from Italy and DID arrive at Harborside...  But that's the last place you or anyone else can prove C2766 was.  Rupp offers no evidence he removed any of those 100 rifles, cleaned or serviced any of them or found that any of these 100 rifles needed replacement - which would have been noted on the packing slips... if you read the work.

Try to follow Dave...

1960 - 100 rifles, Fucile Corto rifles are shipped from Italy to the US as part of a 5200 rifle shipment.
Oct 1960 - 5200 rifles are placed at Harborside from which Rupp pulls rifle when Crescent (Feldsott) sends him the orders
January 1962 - an order for 400 91TS rifles is changed to FC rifles (The C20-T50 ad which comes out in April 1962 advertises the 36" carbine w/adjustable sights 91 TS; not the 91/38 TS)
June 1962 - FBI records state that FC rifle # N2766 was shipped to Kleins in June 1962
August 1962 - the first batch of rifles is pulled from Harborside by Rupp.  The carton with C2766 is not among them.
Aug 1962 - Feb 1963 Kleins still advertises a 36" Carbine (91 Troope Special) with scope for $19.95.  
February 1963 - 100 rifles are supposedly received by Kleins.  The rifles are inventoried by removing the rifle, speaking the serial number and assigning it a VC #.
March 1963 yet another shipment of FC rifles is referred to in an FBI report having C2746 within it...  Why isn't this shipment relfected on the Order form as a subsequent delivery after Feb 1963?

When we match the rifles on the VC list to the cartons we find no rhyme or reason for how they were removed from cartons and inventoried.  Like colored arrows are the same carton, highlights the same size are the same carton.  From this created sheet it certainly does not suggest that a carton was opened, inventoried and VC'd and then they moved on to the next one...   This is just random.  Which someone who was creating this doc may do if they didn't know any better.

What I'm saying which you refuse to hear is that the documents related to the Feb 1963 shipment MAY have been an actual shipment to Kleins at some point in time.  All that was done was THIS SHEET copied from the 10 packing slips the FBI had gotten from Feldsott that night.

Dave - simply prove any one of these listed rifles EXISTS or ever existed, other than C2766.  If that cannot be established, there is no proof this shipment ever existed as it was offered by the FBI.    

One last thing... notice how the rifles are referred to:  "T-38", not the "38 E" as written on the international packing slips...   Ooops!

 

Edited by David Josephs
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