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Math 101


Chris Davidson
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Chris,

All they have done is try to match the position of the limo in the re-enactment to the location of the limo as seen in the zapruder and other photographic evidence. Thats it. There is no hokus pokus going on.

I am playing devils advocate because you need to find a better way of explaining this.

I know you are going to do it your own way but I am trying to let you know that this explanation is not working.

Edited by Mike Rago
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Mike, I explain it quite clearly...

The limo moves at 15ft per second at 10mph

JFK is 15 feet from the front of the limo

At z161, the FRONT of the limo crosses 3+29

At z161, JFK is where the FRONT of the limo WAS at z143

At z179, JFK is where the FRONT of the limo WAS at z161

If you measured the distance at z161 from the FRONT of the limo, to the FRONT of the limo in z179 it SHOULD BE 15 feet @ 10mph

Compare that to the distance from JFK at z161 (15 feet BEHIND the front of the limo) to the FRONT of the limo when JFK reaches the front of the limo from z179 - you have a 30 foot difference.

Again... if I have this wrong - which is more than possible - Chris will correct me

It's all about where the locations relate to the limo... pre 161 it's the front, post it's JFK

and 30 feet disappear

DJ

post-1587-0-01502800-1348098239_thumb.jpg

Edited by David Josephs
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I am going to ask short questions so I am expecting short answers.

How do you know it is the FRONT of the limo that crosses station 3+29 at frame Z161?

At 10 mph the limo moves 15 feet in one second which is 18.3 zapruder frames.

If we assume that at frame 161 the front of the limo crosses station 3+29 then 1 second later the front of the limo should be at station 3+(29+15) = station 3+44 (assuming 10mph) and that would be frame z179.

One second later

Frame Station

179-------3+44 (calculated assuming 10mph)

One second earlier would be Z143 and the FRONT of the limo would be at station 3+(29-15) = station 3+14

One second earlier

Frame Station

143------3+14 (calculated assuming 10mph)

The distance between these two points is 3+44 - 3 - 14 = 30 feet.

The limo moved 30 feet in 2 seconds.

Edited by Mike Rago
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1.

Look at the survey

look at the lane markers for z161 at 3+29

look at where the thin blue lines intersect

2.

now look at z161 below

you will notice the FRONT of the limo is past the lane markers and past where the concrete on the south side of Elm ends

you will also notice where JFK is in relation to the concrete and lane markers

the measurement at z161 is taken to the FRONT of the limo

when this changes to where JFK is AFTER 161, we remove 30 feet from the calculations

DJ

post-1587-0-76680700-1348099631_thumb.jpg

post-1587-0-05763700-1348099915_thumb.png

Edited by David Josephs
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1.

Look at the survey

look at the lane markers for z161 at 3+29

look at where the thin blue lines intersect

2.

now look at z161 below

you will notice the FRONT of the limo is past the lane markers and past where the concrete on the south side of Elm ends

you will also notice where JFK is in relation to the concrete and lane markers

the measurement at z161 is taken to the FRONT of the limo

when this changes to where JFK is AFTER 161, we remove 30 feet from the calculations

DJ

One and Two above I understand and agree.

What does this mean? I do not see the removal of 30 feet.

when this changes to where JFK is AFTER 161, we remove 30 feet from the calculations

Since JFK is a fixed 15 feet behind the front of the limo we always know where JFK is if we know where the front of the limo is.

For instance,

if the FRONT of the limo is at station 3+29 then JFK is at station 3+(29-15) = station 3+14.

if the FRONT of the limo is at station 3+44 then JFK is at station 3+(44-15) = station 3+29

if the FRONT of the limo is at station 4+30 then JFK is at station 4+(30-15) = station 4+15

I used the frame and station data from exhibit 884 to calculate the instantaneous speed.

The average speed from frame 161 to frame 166 was 2.25 mph.

The average speed from frame 166 to frame 185 was 12.61 mph.

...

It does look like the limo slowed down going around the corner...

The red box shows the average speed from frame 161 to frame 313 was 11.17 mph.

vehilclespeed.png

I think the above data is some very good data. It may be the best data we have for the location and speed of the limo during the murder, even if there is some error in it that Chris is going to reveal.

Edited by Mike Rago
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Chris,

All they have done is try to match the position of the limo in the re-enactment to the location of the limo as seen in the zapruder and other photographic evidence. Thats it. There is no hokus pokus going on.

I am playing devils advocate because you need to find a better way of explaining this.

I know you are going to do it your own way but I am trying to let you know that this explanation is not working.

Mike,

The relationship of "limo front" to "JFK in limo" is 15ft +/- a few inches.

The relationship of Station No. 2+50 (snipers nest) to Station C is 15.5ft.

Therefore, imagine the "limo front" aligned directly with the snipers nest and "JFK in limo" aligned with Station C simultaneously.

WC measurements in CE884 are supposed to be to "JFK in limo", but the starting point (measuring spot) is Station C.

Immediately there is an approx 15ft difference at frame 161.

chris

Edited by Chris Davidson
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I am going to repeat what you said to make sure I understand it.

If the limo FRONT is at station 2+50(snipers nest) JFK will be at station C, which is station 2+35.

I do not immediately see how that means there is a 15 foot difference at frame 161?

Wait maybe I do see.

You are saying that all measurements are supposed to be relative to Station C, JFK in the limo.

You are saying The FRONT of the limo is at station 3+29.2 at frame 161 which means JFK is at station 3+14.2.

So you are saying that the station numbers for all frames in the following chart should be reduced by 15 feet to make them correspond to JFK in the limo because, as written , they really represent the front of the limo and not JFK's position in the limo.

Where is the Warren Commission description of this exhibit and what it represents?

Warren Commission Exhibit 884.

stationnumberss.png

WC 882 showing entire re-enactment locations

wc882.png

Description of 884 but still not clear what the station numbers represent

wc884descrpt.png

Link to some good exhibits for future reference

http://www.history-m...Vol17_0464b.htm

Edited by Mike Rago
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IF, 3+29.2 represents the FRONT of the Limo , and not JFK in the Limo, then I would agree there is about a 15 foot error.

However, how do we know what those numbers in exhibit 884 are supposed to represent? Where is it described in the WC?

If I rely on Exhibit 888, it implies that the numbers in 884 are for JFK in the limo, and not the FRONT of the limo because everything works out if those numbers in 884 are interpreted as location of JFK in the limo.

wc888.png

Edited by Mike Rago
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Look at the next entry down "Distance To Rifle In Window" in both CE884 and CE888.

The distance is the same for"JFK in limo" as the target.

That would mean the "Distance To Rifle In Window" target is the same distance away from Station No. 2+50 and 2+34.5.

IOW, two different starting points, same distance to target.

chris

P.S.

Why do you think the plat(CE882) was not made available to the general public. Whereas, during WC testimony, they introduce it in miniscule size as CE882 and introduce it into evidence as CE884.

Maybe so we couldn't read the original numbers within. The old switcharoo.

I've already shown you the survey for frame 168, which obviously shows part of the changes made.

Edited by Chris Davidson
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Look at the next entry down "Distance To Rifle In Window" in both CE884 and CE888.

The distance is the same for"JFK in limo" as the target.

That would mean the "Distance To Rifle In Window" target is the same distance away from Station No. 2+50 and 2+34.5.

IOW, two different starting points, same distance to target.

I do not think you have shown it is two different starting points. Exhibit 884 does not say 2+50, that is something you added to it. I do not know where you got that information from.

Here is the complete 884 ( without the map overlay )

wc8842.png

Edited by Mike Rago
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What does the plat show in relation to Station No. and sniper's nest alignment?

In my view (partial plat with elevation and Station No. provided previously) 2+50 aligns with the sniper's nest, which is 79.2ft from Station No. 3+29.2 which is what is listed on CE884.

If you have a different designation for a sniper's nest Station No. let me know.

chris

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1.

Look at the survey

look at the lane markers for z161 at 3+29

look at where the thin blue lines intersect

2.

now look at z161 below

you will notice the FRONT of the limo is past the lane markers and past where the concrete on the south side of Elm ends

you will also notice where JFK is in relation to the concrete and lane markers

the measurement at z161 is taken to the FRONT of the limo

when this changes to where JFK is AFTER 161, we remove 30 feet from the calculations

DJ

One and Two above I understand and agree.

What does this mean? I do not see the removal of 30 feet.

when this changes to where JFK is AFTER 161, we remove 30 feet from the calculations

Since JFK is a fixed 15 feet behind the front of the limo we always know where JFK is if we know where the front of the limo is.

For instance,

if the FRONT of the limo is at station 3+29 then JFK is at station 3+(29-15) = station 3+14.

if the FRONT of the limo is at station 3+44 then JFK is at station 3+(44-15) = station 3+29

if the FRONT of the limo is at station 4+30 then JFK is at station 4+(30-15) = station 4+15

I used the frame and station data from exhibit 884 to calculate the instantaneous speed.

The average speed from frame 161 to frame 166 was 2.25 mph.

The average speed from frame 166 to frame 185 was 12.61 mph.

...

It does look like the limo slowed down going around the corner...

The red box shows the average speed from frame 161 to frame 313 was 11.17 mph.

vehilclespeed.png

I think the above data is some very good data. It may be the best data we have for the location and speed of the limo during the murder, even if there is some error in it that Chris is going to reveal.

Mike,

I believe you are missing the point of that table...

It is not possible, physically, to accellerate from 2.25 to 12mph in a single second without it being noticed...

to get from 2.25mph and to AVERAGE 12.61 for the next 19 frames, the limo has to accellerate thru 3, 4, 5, 6 mph which LOWERS the average speed..

To average 12.61mph the limo must spend some time ABOVE 12.61 mph to conter the time spent at LESS than 12.61.

Now, to AVERAGE 18.72mph in one frame, the NEXT frame, the speed of the limo at frame 184 had to be very close to 18mph since in the next 21 frames the limo is back down to 12... (which again requires the limo to spend some of these frames at LESS than 12...

Now look at the zfilm... would you say the limo DRASTICALLY SPED UP from 161 thru 184... then slowed drastically from 18 back down to 9.57 in just over 20 frames to get us to 210? When everyone who testified said it mainted a steady and average speed of 8-12mph.

AS an exercise, try to pinpoint the speed of the limo IN EACH FRAME from 161 thru 210 so the averages work.

I believe you will be in for a very interesting surprise... the speeds at which this table tells us the limo traveled cannot be matched back to the existing Zfilm...

As this table was used to explain the shooting - one can see how morally corrupt the WC, SS and FBI were.

DJ

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I am not missing the point of the table. I called those "instantaneous velocities" for a reason. No one is saying that the car accelerated from 2.25 to 12 mph in a second. This is strictly mathmatical calculation. However, the average velocity of 11.17 mph is probably a good estimate over the whole range. What one should normally do is plot those numbers on a chart and then fit some kind of curve( either a line or curve) to the data. It is assumed that there is error in the measurements and you want to find the solution which minimizes that error.

This is the kind of problem that people involved with simulation experiments always have to deal with.

Edited by Mike Rago
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What does the plat show in relation to Station No. and sniper's nest alignment?

In my view (partial plat with elevation and Station No. provided previously) 2+50 aligns with the sniper's nest, which is 79.2ft from Station No. 3+29.2 which is what is listed on CE884.

If you have a different designation for a sniper's nest Station No. let me know.

chris

2+50 does align with the snipers nest but the data on 884 is aligned with station c( I think), which would be station 2+(50-15.5) = station 2+34.5

I think I see what the problem is.

The frame station data is referenced to station C. The rifle data is measured from the snipers nest to JFK in the limo. They are two different measurements.

The 137.4 foot is the measured distance from the snipers nest to JFK in the limo at frame 161.

The 3+29.2 is the measured distance of JFK in the limo from station C.

Edited by Mike Rago
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