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Chris Davidson
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David,

All part of the 100ft (85ft + 15ft) scenario.

BTW, if you look at the plat in post #5, you will notice the triangle created connects Station No. 2+00 to 2+50.

If you include a line to the TSBD corner and measure back from there to 2+25 and on to 2+00, the straight line distance should be approx 43.75ft

Now add that to Myers distance from the TSBD corner to the end of Towner = 43.75ft + 42.42ft= 86.17ft.

Now compare that back to Myers distance from the beginning to the end of Towner.

IOW, 2+00 is the approx. beginning of the Towner film.

chris

Didn't mean to leave you hanging without a15ft section.

Again, the graphic is from Myers.

.82sec x 18.3 Frames per sec = 15frames

.82sec x 22.8 Frames per sec =18frames

chris

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The graphic in the upper left is from Myers.

He has the distance for Z175 (limo front) from the TSBD corner as 88.53ft

I have that labeled on the plat in green.

At that point, "JFK in the limo" would be 15ft back.

This would still put JFK behind Croft at Z175.

Crofts picture is included.

So it becomes fairly obvious that CE884 Station No. for Z161 is supposed to reflect a measurement from the snipers nest to "JFK in the limo" and the measurements from Station C are all part of the

plan to deceive.

Along with Myers changing his measuring stick from "JFK in the limo" to the "limo front"

chris

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15ft down.

15ft to go.

Perhaps this part of the FBI plat will lead to the 2nd 15ft.

Notice the light scribe LOS's coming off the Stemmons sign.

Someone was doing planning for a little different angle.

And maybe hiding a shot reaction to boot!!

chris

P.S

No more posts for two weeks, I'm going to Disneyland.

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15ft down.

15ft to go.

Perhaps this part of the FBI plat will lead to the 2nd 15ft.

Notice the light scribe LOS's coming off the Stemmons sign.

Someone was doing planning for a little different angle.

And maybe hiding a shot reaction to boot!!

chris

P.S

No more posts for two weeks, I'm going to Disneyland.

Give Mickey a big squeeze for all of us....

Thanks for the posts and work...

Catchya later

DJ

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  • 2 weeks later...

An easier way to look at the problem starting with the TSBD corner would be this:

Myers total elapsed time for "JFK aligned with the TSBD corner" and the 313 headshot is 13.95 seconds.

13.95 sec x 18.3 frames per sec = 255 frames.

The WC gives us data for frames 161-313 = 152 frames.

They also tell us the distance between 161-313 is 136ft.

The distance from the TSBD corner to frame 161 is 86ft.

Overall distance from TSBD corner to Z313 is 222ft.

Towner's film(18.3 frames per sec) runs for 76 frames after JFK's alignment with the TSBD corner.

Now you have a time and distance equation you can work.

So, 152 + 76 = 228 frames within that 255 total frame scenario.

This leaves 27 frames to get from the end of Towner's film to frame 161.

136ft + (42.42ft end of Towner film from Myers graphic in a previous post) = 178.42ft.

This leaves 43ft to get from the end of Towner's film to frame 161.

27 frames @ 18.3 frames per sec = 1.5 sec.

43ft in 1.5 sec = 28.6ft per sec = 19.5 mph. This did not occur!!!!

Rate x Time = Distance

This is why changing the measuring stick from "JFK in limo" to "limo front" is important to understand.

Combining the Myers multi film-sync and the WC data creates obvious flaws in both scenarios.

chris

P.S.

If two cameras film the same event for the same amount of time, but at different frame rates, the total frame count is different, but the filming duration is the same.

Myers 22.8 frames per sec for Towner's camera equates to a time conversion when dealing with the 76 frames of "JFK aligned with the TSBD corner" to the end of Towner.

76frames/22.8 = 3.33 sec.

58frames/18.3 = 3.17 sec.

The conversion doesn't quite match. Why?

Because there is a difference of 3 frames in Towner between JFK aligned with the TSBD corner and JFK aligned with the Sniper's nest.

So, 58 + 3 frames = 61 frames/18.3 frames per sec = 3.33 sec.

That is a match.

And, since the WC worked in terms of 100 frames, 100 + 61 = frame 161 which is the start of their data connecting it back to the Snipers nest.

chris

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BTW,

In case you didn't catch it, the difference between 61 and 76 frames is 15.

At a 1ft per 1frame ratio, (rate the WC has the limo traveling from frame 161 to 255) that would be 15ft.

Coincidentally, the distance between JFK in limo" and the "limo front".

Or, insert the missing 15ft in the previous post of:

27 frames in 43 ft can now become 27 frames in 28ft or approx 1ft per 1frame.

Or, keep the 58 and 76 frame frame difference in mind, which will equate to 1 second @ 18.3 frames per sec.

chris

Edited by Chris Davidson
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Hey there Chris...

Question then..

Towner does not show a severe wide turn and almost stop at the corner of Elm... or as they continue down Elm...

and this distance is part of what takes us from 100 to 161.

Chris, if they are SYNCING to 161... they have to lose the wide turn (why we don't have Zap's turn) AND the limo stop....

What makes Altgens so sure he is only 15 feet from JFK at the headshot unless there was another one... or ??

Thanks buddy... great work, ESPECIALLY cause Lamson simply can't understand it ... :lol:

DJ

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.

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http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/WC884.jpg

A long time ago, I created this conversion for CE 884.

In the chart on the left, I applied the difference for frame 255-313 in terms of frame count (58) and discovered the elevation match (2.71) between the top and bottom entries.

You can now connect this to my previous post in terms of Myers total frames for JFK aligned and 313 headshot = 255 frames and the elimination of the 152 WC frames from 161-313.

255-152 = 103 frames.

No coincidence once again.

chris

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Hey there Chris...

Question then..

Towner does not show a severe wide turn and almost stop at the corner of Elm... or as they continue down Elm...

and this distance is part of what takes us from 100 to 161.

Chris, if they are SYNCING to 161... they have to lose the wide turn (why we don't have Zap's turn) AND the limo stop....

What makes Altgens so sure he is only 15 feet from JFK at the headshot unless there was another one... or ??

Thanks buddy... great work, ESPECIALLY cause Lamson simply can't understand it ... :lol:

DJ

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.

David,

I like to look at frame 161 as somewhat of a middle point in this. There is a front end, back end and middle.

If this is what you mean in terms of syncing to 161, I agree.

Two head shots to JFK? Yes.

15ft proximity to Altgen's could be the middle lane to curb estimation with JFK in direct alignment with Altgens.

Or, the front of the limo aligned with Altgens and JFK 15ft back from there.

At this point in time, one way to look at it is:

91 Towner frames for JFK to align with the TSBD corner.

76 more to end Towner.

27 more til frame 161.

And 152 = WC data from 161-313

A total of 346 frames from the beginning of Towner.

255 Myers frames + 91 beginning Towner frames which aligns JFK with the TSBD corner = 346 total frames.

346-33 frames(30ft@18.3 frames per sec)= frame 313.

Check relationship of Altgens to limo/jfk in extant film at frame 346.

chris

P.S.

Remember, I am merely recreating what the WC created.

Edited by Chris Davidson
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Oh, I'm with you on the Z346 call... that's exactly when JFK himself is about 15 feet from Altgens...

and when Altgens tell us that Matter flies out of the LEFT side of his head in Altgens' direction.

To be clear, you are keeping Towner at 18.3fps... Myers speeds up the frame rate to create the 3/4 ratio and reduce the number of frames during the sequence.

Are you saying there was there another shot at 346, or is the 313 shot the 346 shot renumbered (the STARTING POINT for LIFE and NPIC is 312... and then everything is worked backward from there.)

Obviously the headshot, the FIRST headshot or the simultaneous headshots occur at 313 of THIS film - Altgens is nowhere to be seen.

Do you have any conclusions to share based on your calcs?

Thanks

DJ

post-1587-0-34710600-1349805713_thumb.jpg

post-1587-0-87478600-1349807076_thumb.jpg

Edited by David Josephs
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David,

Yes, Towner @18.3 frames per sec.

Myers reduces the time span by increasing the frame rate.

Yes, another shot near Altgens, near where he stands by the yellow marker on the curb.

The WC makes it appear that Altgen's was describing the 313 headshot, not the approx 346 headshot, by pushing the Altgen's recreation photo and his positioning farther east up Elm to coincide with the marker change of "JFK in limo" to "limo front". In essence pushing JFK farther east up Elm as well.

Conclusions: The WC tells us what happens, we just have to decipher it. Myers does a good job of complementing their bogus work.

For instance: This is from the WC report summary section. The other is from Myer's multisync study.

15frames @ 1ft per frame= 15ft.

chris

P.S.

I'll show you the problem it created with the Dorman film in the next post.

Edited by Chris Davidson
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On 10/10/2012 at 1:51 PM, James R Gordon said:
On 10/10/2012 at 1:30 PM, Chris Davidson said:

The WC makes it appear that Altgen's was describing the 313 headshot

Chris,

It is not just the WC that says that Altgens is referring to the Z313 headshot.

Ike Altgens is on record saying that is exactly what he is referring to.

James.

See, now that is what I was thinking as well....

Altgens is describing the 313 RESULT yet the MATH and his testimony tells us it SHOULD occur at Z346.

Mr. LIEBELER - Now, the thing that is troubling me, though, Mr. Altgens, is that you say the car was 30 feet away at the time you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and that is the time at which the first shot was fired?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And that it was 15 feet away at the time the third shot was fired.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - But during that period of time the car moved much more than 15 feet down Elm Street going down toward the triple underpass?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head.

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it.

Mr. LIEBELER - But it was almost directly in front of you as it went down the street; isn't that right?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes.

Brehm:

BREHM expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot, but of this he is not certain. After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of his sight.

Doesn't dawn on Liebeler that the limo HAD TO SLOW OR STOP to have only traveled that far down Elm....

and this STOP occurs directly in front of Altgens...

Now, how in the world did they get the Zfilm to look as if the shot occurs 30 feet further up Elm?

post-1587-0-80015500-1349904172_thumb.jpg

Edited by David Josephs
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The WC makes it appear that Altgen's was describing the 313 headshot

Chris,

It is not just the WC that says that Altgens is referring to the Z313 headshot.

Ike Altgens is on record saying that is exactly what he is referring to.

James.

James,

I tend to disregard the reference to particular shots and deal with the numbers.

A distance between 2 shots was 15ft.

The testimony deals with 15 and 30ft increments. Coincidence once again? I think not!!!

How far (zfilm) was Altgens from the 313 headshot and how far would he have been from the limo traveling another 15ft towards him.

Remember, is he describing the limo front or JFK in the limo in relation to his position or the limo in the center lane?

chris

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There is a formula for a converging lens that relates the distance to the object to the image size.

If I did the math correctly that formula is

let

do = distance of object from lens

ho = height of object

hi = height of image

f = focal length of lens

Then

1 do = f * (1 + ho/hi )

Using this formula it should be possible to calculate how far away Altgens was from the limo when he took the altgens 6 photo.

You need to use the known height of an object in the limo and the image height of that same object in the photo and the focal length of his camera lens.

I can see now that Altgens addressed this issue in his testimony. He was relying on the indicators inside of his camera to tell him the distance to objects. However, as far as I can tell there never was a check of those indicators to verify they were calculating the correct distance to objects and what the actual range would have been.

Chris, I believe that your entire hypothesis rests on the correctness of the distance indicators on Altgens camera. His number 6 photo was taken at zframe 255. That would be about 52 feet from the shot at frame 313 measured along Elm Street.

The more I read about this the more important I think it is for you to use the lens distance formula to verify the distances testified to by Altgens.

You need to know the range at which his camera will stay in focus when set to some distance.

altgensoptics.png

1This formula needs to checked for correctness.

2I think you also have to use the original size print when measuring image size

3This is the info I have on Altgens camera.

James Altgens used a Nikkorex-F 35 mm camera with a 105 mm lens. He was shooting at 1/1000th a second shutter speed with a f11 stop. He was using Eastman Kodak ASA 400 Tri-X film. This is the same camera that professional photographers used in Vietnam during the Vietnam war. These numbers yield an Exposure Value of his photographs of 17.

James Altgens photos are the highest resolution photographs taken in Dealey Plaza on Novermber 22, 1963.

I have an idea. Get some kids in the math part of the Ed Forum to figure out what the correct formula is and calculate how far Altgens was from the limo when he took his # 6 picture and give a prize to the correct answer.

Edited by Mike Rago
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