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Math 101


Chris Davidson
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On 10/11/2012 at 10:21 AM, Chris Davidson said:
On 10/10/2012 at 1:51 PM, James R Gordon said:
On 10/10/2012 at 1:30 PM, Chris Davidson said:

The WC makes it appear that Altgen's was describing the 313 headshot

Chris,

It is not just the WC that says that Altgens is referring to the Z313 headshot.

Ike Altgens is on record saying that is exactly what he is referring to.

James.

James,

I tend to disregard the reference to particular shots and deal with the numbers.

A distance between 2 shots was 15ft.

The testimony deals with 15 and 30ft increments. Coincidence once again? I think not!!!

How far (zfilm) was Altgens from the 313 headshot and how far would he have been from the limo traveling another 15ft towards him.

Remember, is he describing the limo front or JFK in the limo in relation to his position or the limo in the center lane?

chris

Chris... Altgens describes his position - a professional photographer would focus on his subject, not the front of the car...

I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera

He is indeed starting over the top of his camera as the limo passes him and then raises it to his face to take the next photo...

Based on Don's map, it appears Altgens was about 25-30 feet from JFK at 313.... and less than 20 feet at 348. Which, as he and Brehm have said, was how from Z255 thru Z313 the limo barely moved more than 15 feet... in 58 frames. yet we do see that at 348 or so he is indeed 15 feet from JFK... if there was another shot THEN, it certainly does not register a reaction on JFK, not as he describes it... he describes 313...

Not sure why the gif doesn't run... need to click it. -DJ

post-1587-0-34419900-1349985265_thumb.gif

Edited by David Josephs
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David,

I want to continue on from where I left off before we started talking about Altgen's and his testimony.

One of my main objections when I started this thread was to keep any testimony not related to the math/numbers out of it.

Just put it aside for now, and we can revisit it later. I don't want to get sidetracked at this point in time.

I understand what you are saying about the span from 255-313, but it is essentially the same predicament as 313-346 in the sense of showing the reality of what was done.

Let me explain a little more about the 255-313 span in my next post.

Bear with me!!!

chris

P.S.

It's truly important that the math used and how applied in terms of frames/distance/time by the WC assassination recreation be clearly understood before applying it back to the film.

Not just by you and me, but others as well.

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Briefly,

Referring back to the "Vehicle Speed Analysis" chart I supplied in post #11, the entries for average mph in the top right/lower top right columns are: 3.74 and 2.24 mph.

I explained these were conversions for:

100 frames@18.3 frames per sec @30 ft = 3.74 mph

166/7 frames@18.3 frames per sec@30ft= 2.24 mph

That was an equation for 30ft total. Well, the smaller picture says we are dealing with 15ft increments.

So, lets divide the equation by half.

100/2=50 frames

166/2=83 frames

Total = 83 + 50 = 133 frames. The average is 133 frames. Zfilm start

Difference = 83-50 = 33frames.

133-33 = 100 frames 100/133= .75 or 3/4 ratio

2.24/3.74 = .598= 50/83=.602

3.74mph = 5.49ft per sec

50 frames/18.3 frames per sec = 2.73 sec.

2.73 sec x 5.49ft per sec = 15ft

chris

P.S.

The "instantaneous speed" AKA "Vehicle Speed Analysis' document was created by the WC to figure out how to hide/adjust 15ft increments within the total scenario.

Edited by Chris Davidson
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Agree completely Chris.

Towner's "arbitrary camera speed" - not so arbitrary.

A question... if Z was actually 16fps (as the NPIC thought it was)

313 - 133 = 180 frames

180 frames / 16fps = 11.25 seconds

11.25 seconds x 18.3 fps = 205 frames

z133 + 205 = z338

We see Altgens for the first time at Z339 when he easily could believe he was now 15 feet from JFK yet dropped the camera fromhis face, as we see in the Zfilm gif I posted.

post-1587-0-63754600-1350074570_thumb.jpg

By allowing the camera speed to be 18.3fps as opposed to 16fps, the TIME between 133 and 313 changes from 11.25 seconds to 9.83 seconds using the same number of frames...

11.25 - 9.83 = 1.42 seconds difference... about as much time the limo stopped or was severely slowed...

by changing these 1.42 seconds of 16fps film to 18.3fps along with the rest of the film, we get 26 EXTRA frames, or almost 30 feet, prior to 313 in which we can move JFK up and back so the hit is shown at z313 even though evidence and math shows he was much farther down Elm...

Am I close?

DJ

Edited by David Josephs
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Agree completely Chris.

Towner's "arbitrary camera speed" - not so arbitrary.

A question... if Z was actually 16fps (as the NPIC thought it was)

313 - 133 = 180 frames

180 frames / 16fps = 11.25 seconds

11.25 seconds x 18.3 fps = 205 frames

z133 + 205 = z338

We see Altgens for the first time at Z339 when he easily could believe he was now 15 feet from JFK yet dropped the camera fromhis face, as we see in the Zfilm gif I posted.

post-1587-0-63754600-1350074570_thumb.jpg

By allowing the camera speed to be 18.3fps as opposed to 16fps, the TIME between 133 and 313 changes from 11.25 seconds to 9.83 seconds using the same number of frames...

11.25 - 9.83 = 1.42 seconds difference... about as much time the limo stopped or was severely slowed...

by changing these 1.42 seconds of 16fps film to 18.3fps along with the rest of the film, we get 26 EXTRA frames, or almost 30 feet, prior to 313 in which we can move JFK up and back so the hit is shown at z313 even though evidence and math shows he was much farther down Elm...

Am I close?

DJ

The numbers are very intriguing David, but I don't believe at 16 frames per sec there are enough frames.

If we agree that Towner is 18.3 frames per sec and start at the TSBD corner with Myers time to Z313 @ 13.95 total seconds @ 255frames, I break it down this way:

16fps 18.3fps

TSBD Corner to Towner End (66frames-4.15sec) (76frames- 4.15 sec)

Z161-313 (133frames-8.30 sec) (152frames-8.30 sec)

Towner End to Z161 (24frames-1.47 sec) (27frames-1.47sec)

Totals 223frames-13.92 sec 255frames-13.92 sec

Very interesting, the total of 223 is 32 frames short of the 255 mark or 2 seconds @16 frames per sec.

Which is a 1 frame difference from the 33frames@30ft@18.3 frames per sec formula I am using.

223 frames @ 222ft traveled. 1ft per 1 frame.

No extra frames for a slowdown from Z255-313.

chris

Edited by Chris Davidson
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David,

Yes, Towner @18.3 frames per sec.

Myers reduces the time span by increasing the frame rate.

Yes, another shot near Altgens, near where he stands by the yellow marker on the curb.

The WC makes it appear that Altgen's was describing the 313 headshot, not the approx 346 headshot, by pushing the Altgen's recreation photo and his positioning farther east up Elm to coincide with the marker change of "JFK in limo" to "limo front". In essence pushing JFK farther east up Elm as well.

Conclusions: The WC tells us what happens, we just have to decipher it. Myers does a good job of complementing their bogus work.

For instance: This is from the WC report summary section. The other is from Myer's multisync study.

15frames @ 1ft per frame= 15ft.

chris

P.S.

I'll show you the problem it created with the Dorman film in the next post.

David,

Yes, Towner @18.3 frames per sec.

Myers reduces the time span by increasing the frame rate.

Yes, another shot near Altgens, near where he stands by the yellow marker on the curb.

The WC makes it appear that Altgen's was describing the 313 headshot, not the approx 346 headshot, by pushing the Altgen's recreation photo and his positioning farther east up Elm to coincide with the marker change of "JFK in limo" to "limo front". In essence pushing JFK farther east up Elm as well.

Conclusions: The WC tells us what happens, we just have to decipher it. Myers does a good job of complementing their bogus work.

For instance: This is from the WC report summary section. The other is from Myer's multisync study.

15frames @ 1ft per frame= 15ft.

chris

P.S.

I'll show you the problem it created with the Dorman film in the next post.

It wasn't the next post but here it is.

The gif is from Dorman's film.

In the red square is Croft moving toward his final destination, which we see in z133.

The last Dorman frame he is in is Dorman 333.

This means Croft has to get from his Dorman position to his Z133 position in .23 seconds or 4 Zframes.

Or, he just needs more time than he has been given.

More time would mean the .82 seconds/15 Z frames (JFK in limo to limo front) Myers gives for the gap between the end of Towner to the beginning of Z.

This has to occur AFTER the completion of the Towner film for the "measuring stick" change to occur while not sending up any red flags.

The timing problems are subtle, but they are there.

chris

P.S.

Not sure why the gif isn't playing but here is a link to it:

http://www.mejuba.com/albums/jfkass/112938/4797624/show/original

Edited by Chris Davidson
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223 frames @ 222ft traveled. 1ft per 1 frame.

...

More time would mean the .82 seconds/15 Z frames (JFK in limo to limo front) Myers gives for the gap between the end of Towner to the beginning of Z.

This has to occur AFTER the completion of the Towner film for the "measuring stick" change to occur while not sending up any red flags.

Yes, it occurs AFTER Towner ends and PRIOR to Z starting again at 133... if that is the case then MORE than 30-40 frames are gone... a chunk before 133 to align with Towner at 161..

and a chunk between 255 and 350...

Also, this is still over 12mph... 223 frames in 222 feet.... when we KNOW the limo was not traveling anywhere near that fast for any significant period of time..

I think the tact to find movement elsewhere that could not happen in the time allowed is an excellent way to proceed...

Altgens has to get from 5 to his Alt 6 position pretty quickly as well... is there any known film/photo of his mad dash across DP?

That would help fix the timing as well...

DJ

Mr. ALTGENS - I thereupon grabbed my gadget bag that I carry my extra lenses in and ran fast down across the Dealey Plaza to get down in front of the caravan for some additional pictures and I took this one picture----

Mr. LIEBELER - Wait just a minute now--at this point, as you ran across, you were along Elm Street; is that correct?

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I ran across and reached up into--well, the curb area on the west side of Elm Street.

Mr. LIEBELER - Across Elm Street from the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir; and if I had a picture I could probably show you exactly where I was standing. I did show it to Agent Switzer, if that would be of any help to you.

Mr. LIEBELER - Yes; I would like to locate that spot. I show you Exhibit No. 354, which is an aerial view of the area that we have been discussing.

Mr. ALTGENS - This is the Book Depository Building, correct?

Mr. LIEBELER - Yes.

(The witness points to the School Book Depository Building.)

Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.

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I like using Myers to break it down.

For instance:

The thin blue line running through the Houston Street curb is Station "C". We know this from Shaneyfelt's testimony and plotting it using distances from the WC.

From that thin blue line to the Towner end is 91 frames. Remember, 76 Towner end frames after JFK's TSBD corner alignment + the distance from TSBD corner to Station C. You can figure that distance by using the plat previously supplied because we know the distance from the snipers nest to Station C is 15.5ft thanks to the WC. It is approx 6ft. from snipers nest to TSBD corner, so the difference is approx 9.5ft.

Using Myers plat at this point in time yields this;

9.5ft/11.6ft per sec = .818 sec x 18.3 frames per sec = 15 frames

So, from Station C to the End of Towner is 91 frames.

Isn't that quite interesting since we know that from the Towner beginning to JFK aligned with the TSBD corner is also 91 frames.

And, using the power of deductive reasoning, within Towner, we know from the beginning of Towner to Station C is 76 frames and JFK TSBD corner aligned to the Towner end is 76 frames.

The reason why STATION C becomes so important when you don't use it as a measuring point directly parallel to the snipers nest.

chris

P.S.

Give me an affirmative that you understand this part so I can proceed with the next post, which you might enjoy.

Unless you catch on beforehand.

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Frame 161-255 = 94 frames @ 87.2ft = 11.53 mph

From frame 255 to 313, does the limo, according to film analysis, slow down!!!

If so, might it be 3.74 mph slower than 11.53mph at some point during the 255-313 span covering a distance of 15ft!!!!

Z255-313 = 58 frames @ 48.9ft traveled @ 3.17 seconds.

48.9ft-15ft = 33.9ft

11.53mph - 3.74mph = 7.796 mph= 11.46 ft per sec

15ft/11.46 ft per sec = 1.308 sec.

33.9ft/1.87sec = 18.12 ft per sec= 12.32 mph

1.308sec x 18.3 frames per sec = 24 frames

1.87 sec x 18.3 frames per sec = 34 frames

24 + 34 = 58 frames 25/33 = .75

Frame 255 + 34 = 289

Frame 289+ 24 = 313

Frame 255 + 34 = 289 + 58 = 347

Since frame 168 was surveyed in as 161, the above equation would look like this:

168-255=87frames@87.2ft= 12.44mph

Z255-313 = 58 frames @ 48.9ft traveled @ 3.17 seconds.

12.44-3.74mph= 8.7 mph= 12.78ft sec

15ft/12.78ft sec = 1.17 sec

33.9ft/2sec = 16.95ft sec = 11.53 mph

1.17sec x 18.3 frames per sec = 21.4 frames

2 sec x 18.3 frames per sec = 36.6 frames

255 + 36.6 = 292

292 + 21 = 313 + 33 = 346

BTW, the ratio of 22/36.6= .6= ratio of 100/166

chris

P.S.

Take note of the mph and frame count and compare them back to the section in Myers I just described from Station C to the end of Towner.

If you so desire, you can work out the distance too, but I'll guess it's somewhere close to 48.9ft.

Working it Front To Back, just like it was originally done!!!

chris

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