JOACHIM JOESTEN How Kennedy Was...

[Paul Trejo]

Paul, your theory is blown out of the water by the photos.

For Oswald to have made the cut out photo, he would have to have been psychic. If he indeed did make the cut out photo, as your theory states, then he would have had to have matched a photo that had yet to be taken.

Some trick.

Thank you, Ray, for actually providing some hard evidence for my consideration. I've always said that I'm open to new information, and my theory isn't a stone slab.

Yet you overspoke just a tad, Ray, when you said my theory is "blown out of the water". I think what you meant to say is that my battleship has taken one torpedo.

If (and only if) your analysis is correct, then I will have to forego my speculation that the copies possessed by the Dallas Police Department were given to them by the managers at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. If (and only if) Oswald did not take the cut-out photographs possessed by the Dallas Police Department (which showed up years later) then I must find two other explanations right away:

(1) How did the DPD come to be in possession of the BYP cut-outs?

(2) What made the managers at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall dismiss Lee Oswald precisely during the period when the Backyard forgeries were constructed with sophisticated equipment (like the equipment at JCS to which Oswald had daily access)?

Fortunately, these are not difficult to repair.

(1a) I'm content to theorize (along with others) that the DPD over the years worked with some JFK researchers to try to duplicate the BYP and to show how it could be done.

(2a) I can still retain my theory that the managers of JCS dismissed Oswald during the period of the BYP precisely because he was abusing expensive, sophisticated photographic equipment at that very same period in time.

Yes - perhaps it was a direct hit, Ray. But it was minor. My theory was not blown out of the water. It's still afloat.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

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Edited February 21, 2013 by Paul Trejo

[Ray Mitcham]

Paul, The photos prove that your "battleship" is Cinque. (In more ways than one.)

Edited February 21, 2013 by Ray Mitcham

[Paul Trejo]

Paul, The photos prove that your "battleship" is Cinque. (In more ways than one.)

Why don't you provide a detailed description of your claims for the Forum, Ray? I'm sure others would like to read them as well.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Ray Mitcham]

Paul, The photos prove that your "battleship" is Cinque. (In more ways than one.)

Why don't you provide a detailed description of your claims for the Forum, Ray? I'm sure others would like to read them as well.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

I don't need to Paul. Just compare the photos. What other evidence do you need to show that you were wrong in your assumptions?

[Ian Kingsbury]

"Fritz was interested to see if the photos could be faked"

I read this here somewhere a while ago ?.

According to his phony notes Oswald said they were fakes

Uncredited evidence disputing uncredited photos!.

[Paul Trejo]

"Fritz was interested to see if the photos could be faked"

I read this here somewhere a while ago ?.

According to his phony notes Oswald said they were fakes

Uncredited evidence disputing uncredited photos!.

Ian, I believe you might be referring to the Ray and Mary La Fontaine book, Oswald Talked (1996).

That's an interesting read because they also cite Michael Paine's confession that Lee Harvey Oswald actually showed him one of the Backyard Phtotos back in April of 1963. MIchael never told Ruth about that, but he said he would have told the Warren Commission if they would have asked him. Yet the WC never asked him, so he didn't tell anybody until 1993, when the Fontaines asked him.

I also note that only one negative of the Backyard Photos has ever been found -- and that was in the Oswald possessions -- and that corresponds to Marina's memory that she clicked the button only once.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited February 22, 2013 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Anyway, can we please get back to the theme of this thread -- the Joachim Joesten book, How Kennedy Was Killed (1968)?

I have an open question about Joesten's opening chapter that accuses the Dallas Police Department of direct involvement in the JFK assassination. The Dallas DPD had control of the grassy knoll. They controlled who came in and who went out of the area behind the picket fence of the grassy knoll.

I also found a bit more on this suspicion in Walt Brown's book, Treachery in Dallas (1995), for whom the JFK conspirators had to have five special traits: (i) to be home-grown American; (ii) to hate JFK enough that nobody would chicken out; (iii) to be rifle experts; (iv) to blend in naturally with Dallas streets; and (v) to be above official investigation.

Bingo, thought Walt Brown, the DPD "fits this profile perfectly." This group would also have at least two key people at the top of the chain of command.

Besides this, the DPD could control the motorcade route, the manpower, the crime scenes, the evidence, news reporters, the suspects to release, the suspects to hold, their visitors and their safety.

For Walt Brown, "no crime scene involved in the assassination was ever truly sealed." It took the DPD forty-two minutes before they arrived at the sixth floor of the TSBD building to look around.

When Ricky White came forward in the 1990's and accused his own father, a DPD cop, of killing JFK, and his mother backed his story, where did that investigation lead - nowhere?

Are Walt Brown and Joachim Joesten the only two writers that wrote a chapter on this question?

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Mr. PAINE - No, I didn't know prior to the assassination, we didn't know he had a rifle. I had supposed from my conversation with him back on Neely Street that he would like to have a rifle but I didn't gather that he did.

Mr. LIEBELER - Aside from whether or not you knew that he had a rifle, did you ever hear or observe him practicing with a rifle?

Mr. PAINE - No, I did not.

In Captain Will Fritz's report of LHO's interrogations from CE 2003, p. 74: On Saturday, November 23

"At 12:35 PM Oswald was brought to the office for another interview with Inspector Kelley and some of the other officers and myself. I talked to Oswald about the different places where he had lived in Dallas in an effort to find where he was living when the picture was made of him holding a rifle which looked to be the same rifle we had recovered. This picture showed to be taken near a stairway with many identifying things in the back yard. He told me about one of the places where he had lived.

Mr. Paine had told me about where Oswald had lived on Neely Street. Oswald was very evasive about this location. We found later that this was the place where the picture was made."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI or any other investigatory agency of the Government ever show you a picture of the rifle that was supposed to have been used to assassinate the President?

Mr. PAINE. They asked me at first, the first night of the assassination if I could locate, identify the place where Lee was standing when he was holding this rifle and some, the picture on the cover of Life.

That's very interesting material, Lee, because it shows that Michael Paine was splitting hairs with the Warren Commission.

He told Ray and Mary La Fontaine that if the Warren Commission ever asked him directly if Oswald had ever shown him one of the Backyard Photographs, that he would have admitted it.

He was telling the truth, sort of, because in the cases you cited, the Warren Commission never directly asked him if Oswald showed him one of the Backyard Photographs. (Clearly, in the face of all these allegations, Paine was sifting through the questions with a fine-toothed comb, seeking loopholes.)

For example, in that first excerpt from his WC testimony, Paine told Liebeler that he and Ruth "didn't know he had a rifle." This means that the rifle that he saw in the Backyard Photograph might have belonged to somebody else, for all he really knew.

Also in that example, Liebeler asked Michael Paine if he ever heard or observed Oswald practicing with a rifle. Again, Paine probably told the truth when he said no. Just because Oswald showed him a Backyard photograph, that is not the same as hearing him or observing him practice with a rifle. It's splitting hairs, but it's still the truth.

Also, in that second excerpt from his WC testimony, Liebeler asked Paine if the FBI "or any other investigatory agency of the Government" ever showed him a Backyard Photograph. Liebeler did not ask if Oswald showed him a Backyard Photograph.

So, Paine simply told the truth -- the FBI asked him after JFK was dead to identify the place where Lee was standing in the Backyard Photograph. Evidently Paine did not withhold the Neely Street address from anybody, as he also gave that address to Will Fritz.

So, Michael Paine did not lie to the Warren Commission. They never asked Paine specifically if he ever saw the Backyard Photograph before the JFK assassination. Paine told Ray and Mary La Fontaine that he would have been truthful if they had asked him that question -- but they never asked him that specific question.

I always believed that the Warren Commission treated Michael Paine with kid gloves.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

Edited February 24, 2013 by Paul Trejo

[Len Colby]

I'm slowly picking my way through this book.

A reference to the assassin of George Lincoln Rockwell, John Patler, leads to a copy of Stormtrooper http://vnnforum.com/...ead.php?t=80317 with a couple of pages missing that seems to be covering a time of his life that could be of interest. Does anyone have access to a copy?

Patlers description of the New York 'Youth House on 12th street' is interesting.

This is an interesting book.

I used to live on 13th St. 3 blocks from the building were Youth House had been, by then it was an old-folks home. I heard rumours that LHO had been there but this before the Internet so it was no so easy to check. I noticed some interesting parallels between Oswald and Patler.

Lee Harvey Oswald = John Patler

- Born: October 18, 1939 = January 6, 1938

- Parents separated when 5 years-old = ditto (father killed mother)

- Born in: New Orleans, grew up there, Ft. Worth and NYC (inc. East Harlem and the Bronx) = Born in NYC lived in East Harlem and the Bronx.

- Siblings: 1brother, 1 half brother (no sisters) = 1brother (no sisters)

- Detained Youth House (NYC): April – May 1953 = “a little over 2 weeks” 1953/4 ?

- USMC: 1956 – 9 = 1958 – 60,

- Dishonorable Discharge* = ditto

- Married: 19 year-old girlfriend 1961 (separated 1963) = 17 year old girlfriend 1960 (divorced 1964)

- Communist but had right-wing friends = Neo-Nazi, expelled for "Bolshevikleanings."

- Believed to have shot and killed US President JFK in his car from the 6th floor of a building 1963

= Shot and killed US Nazi party president George Lincoln Rockwell in his car from roof of building 1967

- Used a European gun (Carcano rifle) = ditto (Mauser pistol)

- Arrested on the street: by patrolmen (previously took bus) = arrested at a bus stop by patrolman

- JFK shot twice (according to WC etc.) = Rockwell shot twice

- JFK born 1917 studied at Harvard = Rockwell born 1918 studied at Brown

- JFK was a USN officer in the Pacific = ditto Rockwell

- JFK worked and lived in DC 1950s – 60s = ditto Rockwell (OK Arlington VA)

* Originally given hardship discharge, but it was changed to dishonorable after his defection

Sources: Wikipedia and http://vnnforum.com/...ead.php?t=80317 , note the latter is a White Supremacist site some may find the content offensive

[Paul Trejo]

Mr. LIEBELER - You must have moved the duffelbags from the station wagon into the garage?

Mr. PAINE - That is right. I unpacked whatever was remaining in the station wagon to the garage.

So sometime later, I do remember moving about this package which, let's say, was a rifle, anyway it was a package wrapped in a blanket. The garage was kind of crowded and I did have my tools in there and I had to move this package several times in order to make space to work, and the final time I put it on the floor underneath the saw where the bandsaw would be casting dust on it and I was a little embarrassed to be putting his goods on the floor, but I didn't suppose, the first time I picked it up I thought it was camping equipment. I said to myself they don't make camping equipment of iron pipes any more.

Mr. LIEBELER - Why did you say that to yourself when you picked up the package?

Mr. PAINE - I had, my experience had been, my earliest camping equipment had been a tent of iron pipes. This somehow reminded me of that. I felt a pipe with my right hand and it was iron, that is to say it was not aluminum.

Mr. LIEBELER - How did you make that distinction?

Mr. PAINE - By the weight of it, and by the, I suppose the moment of inertia, you could have an aluminum tube with a total weight massed in the center somehow but that would not have had the inertia this way.

Mr. DULLES - You were just feeling this through the blanket though?

Mr. PAINE - I was also aware as I was moving his goods around, of his rights to privacy. So I did not feel--I had to move this object, I wasn't thinking very much about it but it happens that I did think a little bit about it or before I get on to the working with my tools I thought, an image came to mind.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you think there was more than one tent pole in the package or just one tent pole?

Mr. PAINE - As I say, I moved it several times, and I think I thought progressively each time. I moved it twice. It had three occasions. And the first one was an iron, thought of an iron pipe and then I have drawn, I drew yesterday, a picture of the thing I had in mind. Then in order to fill out the package I had to add another object to it and there I added again I was thinking of camping equipment, and I added a folding shovel such as I had seen in the Army, a little spade where the blade folds back over the handle. This has the trouble that this blade was too symmetrical I disposed to the handle and to fit the package the blade had to be off center, eccentric to the handle. Also, I had my vision of the pipe. It had an iron pipe about 30 inches long with a short section of pipe going off 45 degrees. No words here, it just happened that I did have this image in my mind of trying to fill up that package in the back burner of my mind.

***

Mr. LIEBELER - The witness yesterday did draw a picture of what he visualized as being in the blanket, and I will offer it in evidence later on in the hearing.

How long was this package in your estimation?

Mr. PAINE - Well, yesterday we measured the distance that I indicated with my hand, I think it came to 37 inches.

Mr. LIEBELER - Approximately how thick would you say it was?

Mr. PAINE - I picked it up each time and I put it in a position and then I would recover it from that position, so each time I moved it with the same position with my hands in the same position. My right hand, the thumb and forefinger could go around the pipe, and my left hand grabbed something which was an inch and a half inside the blanket or something thick.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did it occur to you at that time that there was a rifle in the package?

Mr. PAINE - That did not occur to me.

Mr. LIEBELER - You never at any time looked inside the package?

Mr. PAINE - That is correct. I could easily have felt the package but I was aware that of respecting his privacy of his possessions.

Mr. LIEBELER - Were you subsequently advised of the probability or the possibility that there had been a rifle wrapped in that package?

Mr. PAINE - When I arrived on Friday afternoon we went into the garage, I think Ruth, Marina and the policeman, and I am not sure it was the first time, but there we saw this blanket was on the floor below the bandsaw--

(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. PAINE - And a rifle was mentioned and then it rang a bell, the rifle answered, fitted the package that I had been trying to fit these unsuccessfully. It had never resolved itself, this shovel and pipe didn't fit in there.

Mr. LIEBELER - And it seemed to you likely that there had in fact been a rifle in the package?

Mr. PAINE - That answered it.

----

Michael Paine served the United States Army for two years in Korea before becoming a reservist. It's interesting that Paine's mind, while allegedly moving a rifle around in a blanket, took him to his experiences camping, rather than his experiences carrying a damn rifle around Korea.

Lee, I take it that you doubt parts of Michael Paine's sworn testimony to the WC. I personally believe that Michael Paine minced words like a French chef. I have long held that Michael Paine withheld far more than he told the WC.

We might disagree on many things, but on this point we're likely to find some common ground.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited February 25, 2013 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

I'm slowly picking my way through this book.

A reference to the assassin of George Lincoln Rockwell, John Patler, leads to a copy of Stormtrooper http://vnnforum.com/...ead.php?t=80317 with a couple of pages missing that seems to be covering a time of his life that could be of interest. Does anyone have access to a copy?

Patlers description of the New York 'Youth House on 12th street' is interesting.

This is an interesting book.

Let me try to guess your interest here, John.

With the working theory that JFK was killed over his stand on Civil Rights, given the fact that Dallas was in sync with the White Citizens' Councils and the State Sovereignty Commissions of the Deep South, let's try to assemble some personnel.

We find ex-General Edwin Walker, a paranoid resident of Dallas who thought RFK was after him. Walker was a professional speaker, and often spoke for the White Citizens' Councils. Walker also had a publisher who practically lived at his home at 4011 Turtle Creek Boulevard, namely, Robert Allen Surrey, who was also the Dallas leader of the American Nazi Party.

This suggests the possibility that the American Nazi Party, working with the KKK, the White Citizens' Councils, the State Sovereignty Commissions, the John BIrch Society, the Texas Minutemen (led by General Walker) and any rogue policemen in Dallas who belonged to one or more of these groups (e.g. Roscoe White), also had a hand in killing JFK.

I also find that to be a distinct possibility.

Therefore, since the man who killed American Nazi leader, George Lincoln Rockwell, namely, John Patler, leads us to a copy of the ANP magazine, Stormtrooper, which had some pages missing that could hide a time of his life that could be of interest to the JFK assassination, it would be interesting to find those pages.

If I have that right, then I agree with you fully, John. I would also like to see those missing pages.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited February 25, 2013 by Paul Trejo

[John Dolva]

Paul, yes, pretty much along that line. What I gleaned from various readings plus the very interesting parallels that Len posted which pretty much filled in some blanks that I was considering at that time makes the whole thing interesting if nothing else.

I would also consider concurrently the appointment of Banister on the recommendation of the LSSC (Simmons?) that the MSC employ him and his subsequent death as a possible thing of onterest.

I'm working from a premise that perhaps not only witnesses were eliminated but also possible leaks were as well as needed.

In Patler perhaps one finds a person wjho eliminates Rockwell without himself knowing exactly why. (note again a 'commie' did it)

The Youth house at a glance seems to have been a rather interesting place to be. I wonder if a detailed history of it exists. Patler and Oswald...hmmm.

[Paul Trejo]

Paul, yes, pretty much along that line. What I gleaned from various readings plus the very interesting parallels that Len posted which pretty much filled in some blanks that I was considering at that time makes the whole thing interesting if nothing else.

I would also consider concurrently the appointment of Banister on the recommendation of the LSSC (Simmons?) that the MSC employ him and his subsequent death as a possible thing of onterest.

I'm working from a premise that perhaps not only witnesses were eliminated but also possible leaks were as well as needed.

In Patler perhaps one finds a person wjho eliminates Rockwell without himself knowing exactly why. (note again a 'commie' did it)

The Youth house at a glance seems to have been a rather interesting place to be. I wonder if a detailed history of it exists. Patler and Oswald...hmmm.

John, it is mildly interesting to me that there are sociological parallels between Lee Harvey Oswald and John Patler, the killer of Nazi leader George Lincoln Rockwell. After all, Patler was a member of the Nazi party himself.

However, I find it very interesting that Guy Banister was recommended for an office appointment in the MSC (Mississippi Sovereignty Commission) by the LSSC (Louisiana State Sovereignty Commission). I would be keen to find the source documents for this recommendation.

I am less interested in the fact that Guy Banister died shortly after this nomination -- and shortly after the publication of the Warren Report.

I'd only wish to track Banister's death if we had any smidgen of evidence that Banister threatened to turn on his fellow conspirators. However, since Guy Banister was a raving racist lunatic, and was obsessed by his hatred of JFK, I strongly doubt any suggestion that he was about to turn on his fellow conspirators.

Rather, I'm content to conclude that Guy Banister died of natural causes related to his high-blood pressure and old age. That is, for my theory, Guy Banister's life is more important than his death.

If you're willing to recollect exactly where you saw this LSSC recommendation for Banister's appointment to the MSC, I would appreciate it.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited February 25, 2013 by Paul Trejo

[John Dolva]

I'm pretty sure I came across it under Banister as entry of name search on the MSC site.

[Paul Trejo]

I'm pretty sure I came across it under Banister as entry of name search on the MSC site.

Yes, John, that was it. Thanks for the citation. Here's the memorandum:

http://mdah.state.ms...|89|1|1|1|56199

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited February 26, 2013 by Paul Trejo