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JOACHIM JOESTEN How Kennedy Was...


John Dolva
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As I wrote earlier, I owned this book and sold it for a song. Joesten was an intelligent man who I would believe anytime before you Robert.

You have been pushing a Johnson did it theory , which is almost as bad as being a Greer shootist.

Both discredit real research.

It is time for you to go.

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Guest Robert Morrow

As I wrote earlier, I owned this book and sold it for a song. Joesten was an intelligent man who I would believe anytime before you Robert.

You have been pushing a Johnson did it theory , which is almost as bad as being a Greer shootist.

Both discredit real research.

It is time for you to go.

Have you ever read the "Dark Side of Lyndon Johnson" by Joachim Joesten? It is a damn good book.

"If Lyndon B. Johnson has any brains left, he’ll blow them out before the law gets to him. That way he could at least escape the pinnacle of infamy and save his country from foundering in an abyss of national shame." [Joachim Joesten, "The Dark Side of Lyndon Johnson," p. 268]

Web link: http://www.amazon.co... lyndon johnson

Edited by Robert Morrow
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My opinion is that the Dallas Police Dept. was deeply involved in the cover up of the JFK assassination, but not the crime itself.

It is natural for Joesten to suspect Curry because of his ridiculous remarks about hearing shots in the TSBD. I think that was more a part of the cover up process, and blaming it all on Oswald.

Thanks for your input on this important topic, Robert. Joachim Joesten himself believed that the Dallas Police Department (DPD) was deeply involved in the crime itself, and not just the cover-up. (This is in chapter one of How Kennedy was Killed.)

Joesten's suspicion of Curry went beyond his immediate claim that even from within the noisy motorcade surrounded by a shouting crowd, that Curry was certain the shots came from the TSBD (although years later he said on film that he "always thought that some shots might have come from the grassy knoll"). It was even more than that -- Joesten's first problem was that the area behind the grassy knoll picket fence was sealed off to the public by the DPD.

The affirmation by dozens of eye-witnesses (as presented in the film, Rush to Judgment, by Mark Lane in 1967) that they heard shots from the picket fence at the grassy knoll included accounts that they saw a puff of smoke and a flash of light at the picket fence at the moment of the shooting. Lee Bowers, railroad man, saw three cars -- not DPD cars -- scouting out the area behind the picket fence, and one car dropped off two men; a slender younger man and a heavier older man.

Virgil Hoffman, a deaf-mute, said he saw two men at the same point, also, and one of them shot a rifle at JFK, and then tossed the rifle to the other man, who disassembled it quickly, put it in a tool box, and they both walked away like mechanics.

Joesten accepts this eye-witness testimony, but his problem isn't with these eye-witnesses, Joesten's problem is with the DPD itself. Why doesn't anybody talk about the DPD complicity in simply allowing these men to be there in the first place?

For Joesten, for the DPD to allow anybody behind the grassy knoll with rifles, was exactly the same scenario as the DPD allowing Jack Ruby to be armed and present in the Police Station near to Lee Harvey Oswald, in an allegedly secure situation.

If Joesten is right, then this is complicity in the assassination itself, and not just in the cover-up.

Joachim Joesten goes even further than that -- he even suspected J.D. Tippit himself of being one of the shooters at JFK that day. Even though Joesten wrote this book in 1968, it is remarkable that these suspicions have only increased since its publication. For example, there is a bustling controversy over the so-called, "Badgeman", image of a shooter wearing a DPD badge behind the picket fence in the photograph taken by Mary Moorman. At least one photo analyst shows that the hairline of "Badgeman" matches the distinct hairline of J.D. Tippit.

William Turner wrote in his 1971 book, Power on the Right, that nobody could join the DPD in the 1960's without being a member of the KKK, the Minutemen, the John BIrch Society or preferably all of these. Now, these were the groups that were the most outspoken in their belief that JFK was a Communist Traitor.

Yet aside from this single chapter in Joesten's book, I am not aware of any detailed study on the complicity of the DPD, not only in the cover-up, but especially in the commission of the JFK assassination.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

Edited by Paul Trejo
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As for Curry and others thinking the shots emanated from the TSBD, if they were standing in front of the building they would have heard the echo of a shot from the grassy knoll bouncing off the building itself. The sound of the shot reaching their ears would be nearly simultaneous with the echo as it bounced off the building.

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My opinion is that the Dallas Police Dept. was deeply involved in the cover up of the JFK assassination, but not the crime itself.

It is natural for Joesten to suspect Curry because of his ridiculous remarks about hearing shots in the TSBD. I think that was more a part of the cover up process, and blaming it all on Oswald.

In reference to your later post, I owned the book for some time and while I do not have that sentence at the top of my head, my concern with you is this;

You hold yourself out as a so called "conspiracy theorist" ; a term I hate but that is what they call us.

Then , you devote an enormous amount of time blaming LBJ for the crime - like he had the power to put this into motion.

Finally , when push comes to shove, you absolve the Secret Service , who had everything to do with allowing this to happen, and now DPD - who Joesten was right on in blaming, and early in the game. And now I will address your objection as to what Joesten wrote and this is my response - I have noticed that I do not agree with everything that a private researcher says and sometimes it conficts with later research. We have the luxury of decades of research that early researcher Joesten did not have.

Allen Dulles will be found to be a low level player in the crime to beat all crimes, while you push a low life , low level player such as Johnson as the one who thought this Coup D Etat up and carried it out - to this day.

Edited by Peter McGuire
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...an enormous amount of time blaming LBJ for the crime - like he had the power to put this into motion...

Peter, FWIW, Robert and I agree on many points of the JFK controversy, and I'm grateful that he helped me become a member of this FORUM about fifteen months ago. Yet I continue to differ with Robert on the topic of the involvement of LBJ in the assassination of JFK.

I read three books written in 2011 that attempt to blame LBJ, namely, Blood, Money & Power (416 pages) by Barr McClellan, also, LBJ: The Mastermind of the JFK Assassination (658 pages) by Philip Nelson, as well as, LBJ and the Conspiracy to Kill Kennedy (344 pages) by Joe Farrell. All these books are flawed by melodrama, bias, one-sided logic and a substitution of shock value for evidence. IMHO these are made-for-money books of historical fiction.

The template for all books that blame LBJ for killing JFK was written in 1991 by Craig Zirbel, namely, Texas Connection (323 pages). In my opinion this is still the best of the lot. Zirbel is biased, yes, but he is also openly emotional and does not pretend to be objective about his hatred for LBJ.

Barr McLellan himself summarized things best when he said that LBJ knew nothing at all regarding the details of the JFK assassination, because he left everything to his lawyer, Edward Clark. Yet, allegations that Ed Clark orchestrated the JFK assassination amount to hearsay and rumor. But McLellan at least admits -- while blaming LBJ for the JFK assassination, that "LBJ knew nothing at all" about what was entailed. Some mastermind.

The book by Craig Zirbel is an emotional outburst of the first caliber. It is worth reading for its entertainment value. As for proving a case against LBJ, it is even less effective than the Warren Commission case against Oswald.

That said, I would like to return to Joesten's theory that the DPD was deeply involved in the crime itself. Would you care to comment about that?

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

Edited by Paul Trejo
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...an enormous amount of time blaming LBJ for the crime - like he had the power to put this into motion...

Peter, FWIW, Robert and I agree on many points of the JFK controversy, and I'm grateful that he helped me become a member of this FORUM about fifteen months ago. Yet I continue to differ with Robert on the topic of the involvement of LBJ in the assassination of JFK.

I read three books written in 2011 that attempt to blame LBJ, namely, Blood, Money & Power (416 pages) by Barr McClellan, also, LBJ: The Mastermind of the JFK Assassination (658 pages) by Philip Nelson, as well as, LBJ and the Conspiracy to Kill Kennedy (344 pages) by Joe Farrell. All these books are flawed by melodrama, bias, one-sided logic and a substitution of shock value for evidence. IMHO these are made-for-money books of historical fiction.

The template for all books that blame LBJ for killing JFK was written in 1991 by Craig Zirbel, namely, Texas Connection (323 pages). In my opinion this is still the best of the lot. Zirbel is biased, yes, but he is also openly emotional and does not pretend to be objective about his hatred for LBJ.

Barr McLellan himself summarized things best when he said that LBJ knew nothing at all regarding the details of the JFK assassination, because he left everything to his lawyer, Edward Clark. Yet, allegations that Ed Clark orchestrated the JFK assassination amount to hearsay and rumor. But McLellan at least admits -- while blaming LBJ for the JFK assassination, that "LBJ knew nothing at all" about what was entailed. Some mastermind.

The book by Craig Zirbel is an emotional outburst of the first caliber. It is worth reading for its entertainment value. As for proving a case against LBJ, it is even less effective than the Warren Commission case against Oswald.

That said, I would like to return to Joesten's theory that the DPD was deeply involved in the crime itself. Would you care to comment about that?

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

I bought MBP when it first came out I believe around 2004 when I was living in Korea. Things were different then, especially when one was living abroad. I am not much of a reader, but I have finished several good books lately - but MBP - I fell asleep after reading not much more than a chapter as I recall. And as I said, I owned and read the rare Joesten book we are talking about and remember Joesten accusing Curry of taking a bribe if I memory serves me.

This is what I think - that it is possible, that the Dallas Poice Chief assisted in the assassination and even accepted a bribe ( $100,000 ) according to Joesten. Just like it is possible that Tippit was involved - actually there is a LOT of evidence linking Tippit to the murder of President Kennedy.

It is hard to accept that the Secret Service shut down their assistance to the President of the United States during the heart of the shooting - yet it happened folks.

This is not even open to debate people, since what they did was in plain sight.

Edited by Peter McGuire
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I bought MBP when it first came out I believe around 2004 when I was living in Korea. Things were different then, especially when one was living abroad. I am not much of a reader, but I have finished several good books lately - but MBP - I fell asleep after reading not much more than a chapter as I recall. And as I said, I owned and read the rare Joesten book we are talking about and remember Joesten accusing Curry of taking a bribe if I memory serves me.

This is what I think - that it is possible, just like Tippet's absolute involvement is possible but they are so repulsive to us that we can not accept it.

Just like the Secret Service shutting down their assistance to the President of the United States during the heart of the shooting - it happened folks but it is hard to believe.

Yes, I agree, Peter, that the truth of the JFK assassination forces us to look at our American dysfunction. Yet awareness is the beginning of all change for the better -- so maybe this will all be worthwhile.

The useful portrait by Joesten in this book (but not in all his books, IMHO) is the portrait of a nation that was divided against itself.

To understand America in 1963 we must try to reconstruct a history before the Vietnam War. That is outside the memory of perhaps most baby-boomers. But if we can reconstruct it, we would find, IMHO, that the most divisive issue at that time was over the racial integration of public schools.

In other words, the whole Civil Rights thing -- which we pretty much take for granted today -- was not at all taken for granted in 1963. Before James Meredith was allowed to attend Ole Miss University, not far from where he lived, America had to suffer through a race riot in late 1962, in which thousands of protesters clashed with thousands of federal troops, and hundreds were wounded and two were killed.

In this capable book, An American Insurrection (2002), Willam Doyle described the hesitation of the National Guard, the Mississippi Highway Patrol, the State Troopers and even some Military men, to comply with JFK's orders.

The problem was not always about the racial integration of a University -- the problem was often about whether the Federal Government had the moral right to occupy a State with troops to force it to comform to a Supreme Court Law which was under appeal. It was a question of States' Rights.

Clearly there are still open issues with regard to American public schools today, including bussing, crime, birth control and a full host of issues that followed upon the heels of Brown v. The Board of Education (1954). Within weeks of this decision, a new phenomenon arose in the USA, namely, White Citizens' Councils. These were non-violent organizations, set-up coast to coast, that promised to oppose the Brown decision with every breath they took. They selected Senators, Governors, Congressmen, Military men and distinguished professional men all across America to speak to crowds of thousands on their behalf, and they flourished for nearly 20 years. This was not only a Southern movement.

But in 1963, these issues were new and fresh, and there were many conservative men -- men in Government, and men in the Armed forces -- who were disturbed by them.

Terri Williams claims that the KKK took on a new life when the Civil Rights movement came to Mississippi in the late 1950's. They were soon joined in 1961 by two youthful and well-endowed new groups -- the paramilitary Minutemen who vowed to defend the USA against Communist invaders (since they doubted JFK's loyalty), and the John Birch Society, who vowed to preserve Joseph McCarthy's dogma that all the Presidents of the USA since FDR were full-fledged Communists.

Among this new wave of rightists in the USA we can find Guy Banister and ex-General Edwin Walker as leaders and speakers. The avid Anticommunism of J. Edgar Hoover remained opposed to the KKK and the John Birch Society, however, those distinctions were too complicated for lesser minds -- and many, many respectable and conservative gentlemen, even in positions of authority and local government, would join the John BIrch Society and even the Minutemen in 1963.

Given these sentiments, we should not be too surprised, that after the brilliant "I Have A Dream" speech by Martin Luther King, Jr., following JFK's own Civil Rights speech, that the right-wing in America -- and especially in the South -- and perhaps especially in Dallas -- would be on the defensive.

On the defensive in Dallas? This was proved when, only one month before JFK's trip to Dallas, UN Ambassador Adlai Stevenson made the mistake of speaking in downtown Dallas. Had he not read the John Birch Society dictum; that the UN is Communist? What was he thinking? Heckled beyond toleration inside the auditorium, he was spat upon and battered outside the auditorium.

We should not blame the city of Dallas so much -- things would have gone worse for Adlai if he had chosen Mississippi as his speaking venue.

This was not the act of a few hot-heads. This was the act of a grass-roots movement of millions of Americans in 1963. Their leaders were well-known to the press. It was all too clear that the USA was divided against itself. So, when JFK chose, only four weeks later, to drive in an open car motorcade through Dallas, he would not be allowed to escape alive.

Insofar as this was a grass-roots movement, we cannot be surprised to hear reports that the DPD supported this conspiracy, and that even some rogues within the Secret Service would cooperate. That is the way it goes with a true grass-roots movement.

Joachim Joesten, writing from his apartment in Europe, was able to surmise these sociological nuances from the outside -- while we Americans were almost incapable of this sort of introspection and self-criticism.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

Edited by Paul Trejo
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You are sure pushing my desire to read Paul, as that was pretty long. I will say , that when Joesten interviewed Onassis for the book on him , he flew to New York and pushed his way into Onassis offices. Joesten was a tenacious writer worthy of respect in his profession..

I think Joesten had a little more than thoughts from his apartment ( where exactly ) when he wrote this well researched book, Paul.

Best,

Peter

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Greg, I hope you consider posting more often. The Forum hasn't been the same without you.

You can continue being smarmy, Michael. You may even succeed in getting a rise out of me. But nothing will change the facts I've posted.

Your disguised and uncalled "gotchas" are the only reason I'm here. When you get it wrong, as you did with me, and as you have here, I'll be back to let you know.

Your oft-repeated refrain that "Of course the fault does not rest with me, I am not the one making claims about XYZ" is cowardly bullxxxx which you use as a loophole. When you quote someone followed by another quote which does (or just seems to) contraindicate the first quote, you are implicitly making a claim about that first statement.

You better start covering up better than that, Emperor. You're living in a glass house.

I see you are up to your favourite game again.

Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Michael Hogan, Nov 22, 2010: But when you claim Armstrong said something he clearly did not... [emphasis mine]

Michael Hogan, Nov 23, 2010: Anyone familiar with Armstrong's work would recognize that he would never claim that Marina Oswald said those exact words. [emphasis mine]

Michael Hogan, Dec 13, 2010 after another poster verified that Armstrong did make the quote in question, did you apologise for your statements above which accuse me of making false claims? No. You came up with this lie instead: I was always willing to be convinced.

I promise you this quote is going to come to bite you on the arse, as well:

George de Mohrenschildt's manuscript clearly indicates that he respected Oswald, yet there is no mention of this by you. You refrain from commenting on his reasonable reasons (and apology) for telling Jenner what he did. And you ignore all the good things he wrote about Oswald in his manuscript. [emphasis mine]

your assertions are in error.

he was not led by Jenner into dumping all over Oswald. He had been doing it privately and in writing to friends well before is WC appearance. In one letter writen from Haiti in Dec '63, he says "we all knew Oswald was a crackpot" and goes on to suggest that in hindsight, he may have put himself in danger when he rescued Marina from this wife-beater because Oswald may have come after him.

http://www.maryferre...392&relPageId=7

Now go to your loopholes and try and find one to slip through.

edit: correct link put up - but for those with little kids, Auskick is a great game...

bump

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You are sure pushing my desire to read Paul, as that was pretty long. I will say, that when Joesten interviewed Onassis for the book on him , he flew to New York and pushed his way into Onassis offices. Joesten was a tenacious writer worthy of respect in his profession..

I think Joesten had a little more than thoughts from his apartment (where exactly) when he wrote this well researched book, Paul.

Best,

Peter

Peter, I liked your idea that the JFK assassination emerged from American dysfunction. That topic goes beyond Joachim Joesten. Attempting to blame individuals can only help us if we're aiming for the ground-crew (which we should). High-level people were only representatives of the truly guilty party -- the American Zeitgeist.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

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Paul

I am not interested in the ground crew - if you mean the shooters.

To me, the ground crew are Allen Dulles and his ilk , thus you must understand that very high level people were involved ( as you would expect in the killing of the POTUS ) and these people were multi- billionaires.

( yes in the 60's , adjusted for inflation )

Keep in mind , adjusted for inflation, the turn of the century mogals had north of 200 billion dollars and they were not the type to give the money away. ( the Car NEY Gee ) foundation gave away a pittence in my opinion, as did Roosevelt Steel. These empires existed for another 6 decades and they still exist today.

These were the people behind the government ( business ) sanction of a ( sitting , if that is needed ) POTUS and these kinds of people DO NOT GET caught.

Now I am going back to my world - which is learning guitar, voice, piano and a horn.

Oh by the way - considered "the American Zeitgeist" and just could not see how it applied to this issue.

Edited by Peter McGuire
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Paul

I am not interested in the ground crew - if you mean the shooters.

To me, the ground crew are Allen Dulles and his ilk , thus you must understand that very high level people were involved ( as you would expect in the killing of the POTUS ) and these people were multi- billionaires...

That's OK, Peter, we can agree to disagree. It seems to me that perhaps most JFK theorists are content to identify some high-ranking citizens to blame for the JFK conspiracy, and leave it at that. It's too much work just to get to that point.

As one JFK theorist wisely said -- "there's probably something wrong with knowing more about one day 50 years ago than about my own family."

Nevertheless, the JFK conspiracy is perhaps the most engaging murder mystery in American history. Identifying the exact shooters is going to become increasingly possible as technology continues to computerize, digitize and become ever more micro.

I will say this -- Joachim Joesten failed to identify the ground crew. He wrote several books on this topic precisely because his theory kept on changing, year after year.

For example, the book under discussion, How Kennedy was Killed, was written on the eve of the Jim Garrison investigation, and Joesten was really hoping for a breakthrough from Jim Garrison.

Nope. Nothing. Clay Shaw walked away a free man.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Paul

I am not interested in the ground crew - if you mean the shooters.

To me, the ground crew are Allen Dulles and his ilk , thus you must understand that very high level people were involved ( as you would expect in the killing of the POTUS ) and these people were multi- billionaires...

That's OK, Peter, we can agree to disagree. It seems to me that perhaps most JFK theorists are content to identify some high-ranking citizens to blame for the JFK conspiracy, and leave it at that. It's too much work just to get to that point.

As one JFK theorist wisely said -- "there's probably something wrong with knowing more about one day 50 years ago than about my own family."

Nevertheless, the JFK conspiracy is perhaps the most engaging murder mystery in American history. Identifying the exact shooters is going to become increasingly possible as technology continues to computerize, digitize and become ever more micro.

I will say this -- Joachim Joesten failed to identify the ground crew. He wrote several books on this topic precisely because his theory kept on changing, year after year.

For example, the book under discussion, How Kennedy was Killed, was written on the eve of the Jim Garrison investigation, and Joesten was really hoping for a breakthrough from Jim Garrison.

Nope. Nothing. Clay Shaw walked away a free man.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

You talk nice "Paul" but you seem more and more just to be an apologist at the least and a cover up artist most likely.

I do like your comment about how we are all involved in this - but I assure you , playing Blackbird like Paul McCartney himself - in 3 months time is more important to me than finding out "who killed Kennedy "

Best,

Peter

Edited by Peter McGuire
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