The Danger of Conspiracy Theories

[Len Colby]

Mark,

The Obama body count began during the time period of the 2008 Democratic convention. Two delegates loyal to Hillary Clinton died unnaturally within a few weeks of each other. Obama sounds good, but his past is murkier than any president we've ever had. While the "birther" movement has been dismissed by the msm as Tea Party-inspired hatred, the questions surrounding all the myriad of Social Security numbers for Obama alone raise troubling questions. All of Obama's college records are sealed. Why?

Obama has invaded and/or bombed more countries than Dubya ever dreamed of. He signed the NDAA, which is probably the most dangerous legislation in American history. Like most of his Democrat and Republican peers, he wants to control the internet and restrict public access to alternative views. Never forget his aide Cass Sunstein's desire to literally outlaw "conspiracy theories." I don't see where he's done anything to improve things.

While Obama is not, to my knowledge, on the public record regarding the JFK assassination, I think it's a certainty that he would say that he believed Oswald acted alone. He is no "Muslim" or "socialist" or anything else his laughable right wing critics claim he is. He's merely another establishment pawn, completely subservient to organized corruption.

Mark,

The Obama body count began during the time period of the 2008 Democratic convention. Two delegates loyal to Hillary Clinton died unnaturally within a few weeks of each other.

LOL at least one of the two was replaced by his widow and Obama had already sown up the nomination, Clinton had conceded So how did Obama benefit? This may come as a surprise to some but people die, about 0.85% of the US population does so every year. Politicians tend to be connected to lots of people and if go out enough degrees of separation a good number of them will die over periods of several years.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Len Colby

[Mike Rago]

A dichotomy is any splitting of a whole into exactly two non-overlapping parts, meaning it is a procedure in which a whole is divided into two parts. It is a partition of a whole (or a set) into two parts (subsets) that are

- jointly exhaustive: everything must belong to one part of the other, and

- mutually exclusive: nothing can belong simultaneously to both parts

You are either a LNer or a CTer.

In fact there is truth on both sides.(The SBT (its components),when understood, is an excellent example of truth being on both sides. A bullet did pass through JFK and CE 399 is that bullet, however, CE399 is not the bullet which struck Connally and broke his rib, wrist and thigh. That damage was caused by a second bullet which completely missed the president.)

A false dichotomy is when you are presented with two choices, both of which are false or

you are presented with two choices which may or may not be false and there exists a third choice, which is true, which is not presented to you. It creates the illusion, by the so called leaders, that a valid debate is being conducted.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Len Colby]

15 of the 19 hijackers were admitted to the US under a special CIA visas for terrorists program,

Wrong

Len, My source for the claim that 11 (sorry, I was wrong about the 15) of the 19 hijackers got their visas through a CIA compromised program is: http://www.historyco...a1987springmann

Mark,

Note that your claim went well beyond your source's and the difference between 11 and 15 was the least of it. Springmann as the Timeline made clear was in Jeddah 1986 – 89, i.e. he was out of the picture 11 – 12 years before the hijackers visas were issued. He only indicated (as paraphrased by the Timeline) “this visa system may have continued at least through 9/11”. That aside there are several problems with his story:

• 
  He has no corroborating evidence neither documents nor supporting witnesses.
  
• 
  He said the people who got these visas went to get training to fight in Afghanistan were mostly Arabs, but most accounts indicate the CIA aided the local Mujaheddin not the “Arab Afghans.” (See the Looming Tower for example)
  
• 
  He said two of the visas went Pakistanis, the CIA ran the consulate in Peshawar, it would have made more sense for them to get their visas there.
  
• 
  He claims he questioned the suspect visas for 2 ½ years, I doubt they would have kept him in his position that long if he was creating trouble. That was longer than standard rotations in the same post which is 1 – 2 years (see http://books.google.com.br/books?id=LggNAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA24)
  
• 
  He admits he was fired by the State Dept. so one could presume he had an ax to grind. If the problem was merely the visas it would have made more sense to send him to another post. People still employed by an organization are less likely to blab than ones who've been canned.
  
• 
  It makes little sense to presume the program continued after the Soviet pull-out from Afghanistan.
  
• 
  I've not seen any evidence the 11 did not meet the requirements for a visa at the time, Saudis were pretty much given visas idiomatically
  

[Mark Gorton]

Len,

I was being a bit glib when I said the hijackers got their visas through a CIA visas for terrorists program. But the fact so a number of known terrorists and a whole bunch of people who look suspicious would so easily get visas is very suspicious. Please see: http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a102302visaahandling#a102302visaahandling

October 9, 2002: Handling of 9/11 Hijackers’ Visa Applications Denounced

Visa applications for the 15 Saudi Arabian hijackers are made public, and six separate experts agree: “All of them should have been denied entry [into the US].” Joel Mowbray, who first breaks the story for the conservative National Review, says he is shocked by what he saw: “I really was expecting al-Qaeda to have trained their operatives well, to beat the system. They didn’t have to beat the system, the system was rigged in their favor from the get-go.” A former US consular officer says the visas show a pattern of criminal negligence. Some examples: “Abdulaziz Alomari claimed to be a student but didn’t name a school; claimed to be married but didn’t name a spouse; under nationality and gender, he didn’t list anything.” “Khalid Almihdhar… simply listed ‘Hotel’ as his US destination—no name, no city, no state but no problem getting a visa.” Only one actually gave a US destination, and one stated his destination as “no.” Only Hani Hanjour had a slight delay in acquiring his visa. His first application was flagged because he wrote he wanted to visit for three years when the legal limit is two. When he returned two weeks later, he simply changed the form to read “one year” and was accepted. The experts agree that even allowing for chance, incompetence, and human error, the odds were that only a few should have been approved. [NATIONAL REVIEW, 10/9/2002; NEW YORK POST, 10/9/2002; ABC NEWS, 10/23/2002] In response to the revelation, the State Department says, “The fact is that with 20/20 hindsight, I’m sure one can always find a reason that you might have turned down a visa.” [NATION REVIEW ONLINE, 10/10/2002; STATE DEPARTMENT, 10/10/2002]

[Mike Rago]

Duplicate Post.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Mike Rago]

Len,

I was being a bit glib when I said the hijackers got their visas through a CIA visas for terrorists program. But the fact so a number of known terrorists and a whole bunch of people who look suspicious would so easily get visas is very suspicious. Please see: http://www.historyco...02visaahandling

According to this article Israeli Mossad agents posed as American spies to recruit terrorists...

A series of CIA memos describes how Israeli Mossad agents posed as American spies to recruit members of the terrorist organization Jundallah to fight their covert war against Iran.

Buried deep in the archives of America's intelligence services are a series of memos, written during the last years of President George W. Bush's administration, that describe how Israeli Mossad officers recruited operatives belonging to the terrorist group Jundallah by passing themselves off as American agents. According to two U.S. intelligence officials, the Israelis, flush with American dollars and toting U.S. passports, posed as CIA officers in recruiting Jundallah operatives -- what is commonly referred to as a "false flag" operation.

http://www.foreignpo...1/13/false_flag

Edited October 8, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Chris Newton]

I think this thread is evolving into that which is indicative of the problem postulated by Mr. Simkin in the first place. It started as a question, "Do you agree?" that "out-there conspiracy theorizing serves the interests of the powers-that-be". Some of the most recent posts, which hijacked the thread are, ironically, about 9/11 hijackers.

This is both counter-productive and self-fulfilling.

I wonder, if just to experiment, can one mention out-there conspiracies without actually attracting out-there conspiracies or does that break some law of out-there conspiracy physics?

[Mike Rago]

I think this thread is evolving into that which is indicative of the problem postulated by Mr. Simkin in the first place. It started as a question, "Do you agree?" that "out-there conspiracy theorizing serves the interests of the powers-that-be". Some of the most recent posts, which hijacked the thread are, ironically, about 9/11 hijackers.

This is both counter-productive and self-fulfilling.

I wonder, if just to experiment, can one mention out-there conspiracies without actually attracting out-there conspiracies or does that break some law of out-there conspiracy physics?

Yes the most recent posts are a bit off topic but they do illustrate that what actually happens is, many times, stranger than fiction.

Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't.

-Mark Twain

Edited October 8, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Len Colby]

Len,

I was being a bit glib when I said the hijackers got their visas through a CIA visas for terrorists program. But the fact so a number of known terrorists and a whole bunch of people who look suspicious would so easily get visas is very suspicious. Please see: http://www.historyco...02visaahandling

October 9, 2002: Handling of 9/11 Hijackers’ Visa Applications Denounced

Visa applications for the 15 Saudi Arabian hijackers are made public, and six separate experts agree: “All of them should have been denied entry [into the US].” Joel Mowbray, who first breaks the story for the conservative National Review, says he is shocked by what he saw: “I really was expecting al-Qaeda to have trained their operatives well, to beat the system. They didn’t have to beat the system, the system was rigged in their favor from the get-go.” A former US consular officer says the visas show a pattern of criminal negligence. Some examples: “Abdulaziz Alomari claimed to be a student but didn’t name a school; claimed to be married but didn’t name a spouse; under nationality and gender, he didn’t list anything.” “Khalid Almihdhar… simply listed ‘Hotel’ as his US destination—no name, no city, no state but no problem getting a visa.” Only one actually gave a US destination, and one stated his destination as “no.” Only Hani Hanjour had a slight delay in acquiring his visa. His first application was flagged because he wrote he wanted to visit for three years when the legal limit is two. When he returned two weeks later, he simply changed the form to read “one year” and was accepted. The experts agree that even allowing for chance, incompetence, and human error, the odds were that only a few should have been approved. [NATIONAL REVIEW, 10/9/2002; NEW YORK POST, 10/9/2002; ABC NEWS, 10/23/2002] In response to the revelation, the State Department says, “The fact is that with 20/20 hindsight, I’m sure one can always find a reason that you might have turned down a visa.” [NATION REVIEW ONLINE, 10/10/2002; STATE DEPARTMENT, 10/10/2002]

That actually undermines the notion the CIA, Mossad, MIBH and/or some other western intelligence agency was behind the attacks as they obviously would have been able help the hijackers fill in their visa applications correctly, giving the names of a few hotels in the US is not exactly rocket science. According to Joel Mowbay, the journalist cited by the Timeline, the problem was the country they came from. The Timeline of course neglected to mention this angle because it didn't fit their spin.

'

State's Deputy Press Secretary Phil Reeker recently remarked that 214(

is "quite a threshold to overcome." It just wasn't for Saudi applicants.'

http://web.archive.o...wbray100902.asp

Three Saudis who were among the last of the Sept. 11 homicide hijackers to enter this country didn't visit a U.S. embassy or consulate to get their visas; they went to a travel agent, where they only submitted a short, two-page form and a photo. The program that made this possible,

Visa Express

, is still using travel agents in Saudi Arabia to fill this vital role in United States border security.

[…]

Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world that enjoys such privileges when it comes to visas. In some other nations, partial versions of Visa Express are available — but to very few applicants. Twenty-eight countries — almost all in Western Europe — participate in Visa Waiver, which permits travel to America without a visa. Saudi Arabia, however, is the only country with such special visa privileges whose citizens pose a known terrorist risk.

One cannot fully appreciate the severity of this gaping hole in our border security without examining the "courtesy culture" at Consular Affairs (CA), an agency within the State Department that oversees embassies, consulates, and visa issuance, which made Visa Express possible.

CA is charged with a unique, and conflicting, pair of goals: to provide public diplomacy on the front lines and to screen out potential terrorists before they reach our shores. In the past decade, CA has done a splendid job achieving the former objective, but it has come

[…]

http://old.nationalr...wbray061402.asp

It also should be noted that only one of the six 'experts' cited by Mowbay was identified and had served in Mexico a country whose economic realities are very different from Saudi Arabia's. This is critical because the main purpose of the application process/interview is to weed out people who will come as tourists, students etc. but end up working illegally.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Len Colby

[Len Colby]

Len,

I was being a bit glib when I said the hijackers got their visas through a CIA visas for terrorists program. But the fact so a number of known terrorists and a whole bunch of people who look suspicious would so easily get visas is very suspicious. Please see: http://www.historyco...02visaahandling

According to this article Israeli Mossad agents posed as American spies to recruit terrorists...

A series of CIA memos describes how Israeli Mossad agents posed as American spies to recruit members of the terrorist organization Jundallah to fight their covert war against Iran.

Buried deep in the archives of America's intelligence services are a series of memos, written during the last years of President George W. Bush's administration, that describe how Israeli Mossad officers recruited operatives belonging to the terrorist group Jundallah by passing themselves off as American agents. According to two U.S. intelligence officials, the Israelis, flush with American dollars and toting U.S. passports, posed as CIA officers in recruiting Jundallah operatives -- what is commonly referred to as a "false flag" operation.

http://www.foreignpo...1/13/false_flag

[Mike Rago]

Now you know how I felt when everyone only said CIA CIA CIA CIA CIA , Bay of Pigs , CIA , CIA CIA, Bay of Pigs....

I will remind you , however, that there was a fake Secret Service agent on the Knoll.

First , why was he on the Knoll?

Second, the conspirators had the resources to impersonate SS agents.

http://www.jfklancer...gent/index.html

Who had the resources to impersonate SS agents?

Buried deep in the archives of America's intelligence services are a series of memos, written during the last years of President George W. Bush's administration, that describe how Israeli Mossad officers recruited operatives belonging to the terrorist group Jundallah by passing themselves off as American agents. According to two U.S. intelligence officials, the Israelis, flush with American dollars and toting U.S. passports, posed as CIA officers in recruiting Jundallah operatives -- what is commonly referred to as a "false flag" operation.

http://www.foreignpo...1/13/false_flag

Edited October 8, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Mike Rago]

"An objective investigator into this case would never dismiss the brinkmanship going on between JFK and Israel over Dimona and the fact that Kennedy's death was s sudden circuit breaker which ended this deadlock."

You have admitted that you never investigated it and you did not review the one book that discusses it. You have admitted that you have never asked the government for any documents pertaining to John Kennedy's position on Israels obtaining nuclear weapons.

You have kept your readers in the dark on this. The question I want to know is why?

Israel needed a nuclear bomb because the Soviet Union threatened them...

"The Israeli nuclear bomb was to defend Israel not only, or perhaps not even primarily, against the Arab states, but also, perhaps primarily, against the Soviet Union. The need for this had become evident when the Soviet Union issued an ultimatum to Britain, France and Israel on November 6, 1956, stating that the government of Israel was "criminally and irresponsibly playing with the fate of its own people...which puts in jeopardy the very existence of Israel as a State". Soviet Prime Minister Nikolai Bulganin warned Ben-Gurion in a separate communication that this was a threat of a Soviet missile strike against Israel. Ben-Gurion immediately sent Director General of the Ministry of Defense Shimon Peres and Foreign Minister Golda Meir back to Paris, where Peres requested French nuclear assistance in return for an Israeli withdrawal from the Sinai. The French agreed to provide the technology and the technicians needed. From that point the Israeli bomb project went down the path since followed by other second-and third-generation atomic powers: obtaining "peaceful" nuclear reactor technology from one of the four initial atomic powers, then modifying it for weapons production."

And John Kennedy would not allow Israel to develop a nuclear bomb because the Soviet Union threatened US during the Cuban Missile Crisis. The US removed nuclear missiles from Turkey as the Soviet Union removed nuclear missiles from Cuba. At that time nuclear weapons in Israel would be no differerent, from the point of view of the Soviet Union, than nuclear weapons in Turkey. John Kennedy would not allow it.

The Kennedy/Ben Gurion/Eshkol nuclear exchange

http://educationforu...=15#entry255600

You admit that you have never investigated this. You admit you have never asked for information from the government regarding this.

The fact that you do not see that as a motive is very disturbing to me. It is so disturbing to me that I cannot consider you a serious researcher.

I see no difference between you and the MSM on this issue. Not a peep from you.

I will say it again....

You have not solved this case in 50 years and I am quite sure that if you are given another 50 years you will not solve this case!

You think that I am serving the powers that be and I think that you are serving the powers that be.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Len Colby]

and finally, the FBI NEVER LISTED 9/11 when describing and listing Osama's crimes

LOL I love that one, yes the USG orchestrated this giant conspiracy to murder thousands of people and fake huge amounts of evidence but were unwilling or able to include 9/11 on his wanted poster! It was not listed because he had not been indicted. He wasn't indicted presumably because it was unlikely he would every be brought to trial.

Such bs. You do not have to be indicted to be on the FBI's most wanted list.

Aren't lawyers supposed to have decent read comprehension skills? Where did I ever say you "have to be indicted to be on the FBI's most wanted list"? OBL was already on the list on 9/11. His wanted poster never listed 9/11 because he was never indicted for it. But perhaps Ms. Meredith can list people who made "on the FBI's most wanted list." without being indicted.

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted

EDIT - Added FBI link for Dawn

Bumped for Dawn

[Mike Rago]

Yep Chris. When Rago pushes both his "see no evil about CIA, because Mosad did it" and "CE 399 was actually fired in Dealey Plaza and went through JFK" garbage, yep, the Powers that Be are being well served.

James Jesus Angleton helped to set up Mossad.

After the war Angleton worked for the War Department's Strategic Services Unit. He became the chief counter-intelligence officer for Italy but in 1947 he returned home to join the Central Intelligence Agency. In 1951 he was sent to Israel where he helped establish Mossad, the Israeli intelligence service.

http://www.spartacus.../SSangleton.htm

Edited October 9, 2012 by Mike Rago

[John Simkin]

I do think conspiracy theories are dangerous--but not because they cause people to question "officialdom."

I think they're dangerous because they are equal opportunity employers. The right claims the commies killed Kennedy. The left claims the right killed Kennedy. The right then claims the left railroaded Nixon. The left then claims the CIA railroaded Nixon, on behalf the right. The left then claims Reagan and Bush are murderers. The right then claims Clinton was a murderer. And so on. And so on.

The net effect, then, is of conflicting theories, which allow those interested in these theories to pick whichever one floats their boat, and claim it as the one great truth.

One of the reasons why so many people believe in the JFK assassination conspiracy is that it is open-ended enough to include anyone across the political spectrum. Whatever your political orientation, you can find some sort of evidence that your own political enemies were involved. Therefore there is something for everyone and different conspiracy theories appeal to different political groups: right-wing (Soviets, Castro), left-wing (oil millionaires), Republicans (Lyndon B. Johnson), Democrats (George Bush), racists (Jews), pacifists (Military Industrial Congress Complex), libertarians (CIA or FBI), etc. If you are completely non-political you can always opt for the Mafia.