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Harry Dean


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As much as I dislike far-right groups like the John Birch Society, I find it difficult to believe they were involved in the assassination of JFK.

What is clear is that their was an attempt to implicate several groups, both left and right, in the assassination of JFK. I suspect that the real plotters were doing this in order to spread confusion and cause problems for those investigating the crime. People like Bernard Weissman and Vaughn Marlowe were being created as possible “patsys”. As it happens, Lee Harvey Oswald, ended up taking the rap. If it had not been him, it would have been someone else.

If it was the John Birch Society, what was their motive? I assume they hated JFK because of his civil rights policies. However, they must have known that in November, 1963, there was very little chance of him getting this legislation through Congress. Nor was JFK trying too hard. He had to get the support of people like James Eastland, John Stennis, Richard Russell and Herman Talmadge in order to win the 1960 election (see Robert Kennedy’s private interview with Anthony Lewis in 1964 on this). RFK points out that their help was vital in the election win. It was also going to be vital in 1964. JFK was fully aware that he could not afford to upset the far right in the Deep South. Its leaders knew this business about Civil Rights was just PR.

This far-right theory also has another deep flaw. They did not on the surface appear to get what they wanted. LBJ becomes president and he uses his considerable power to force through Civil Rights legislation. This is legislation that he had spent his political life blocking. He even campaigned against attempts by Congress to introduce anti-lynching legislation. His financial backers were extreme racists.

When LBJ signed the 1964 Civil Rights Act he made a prophecy that he was “signing away the south for 50 years”. This proved accurate. In fact, the Democrats have never recovered the vote of the white racists in the Deep South. This is the electorate that now gives its support to the Republican Party.

LBJ is one of the shrewdest politicians of the modern era. Why would he do this? I think it is one of the great mysteries of modern history. I have tried to explain why he acted in this way here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1909

Of course, a very small group did know that JFK had developed more liberal opinions during 1963. This has to remain a secret because he knew he would never win the 1964 election if the American public knew he was no longer a Cold War warrior. In fact, this image of the tough guy willing to stand up to communism, was vitally important if he was going to win in 1964.

It is like George Bush being secretly converted to the idea that he needed to withdraw his troops from the Middle East and to put high taxes on fuel in order to stop global warming. However, he decided to keep this quiet until after the 2004 election. How would the leading Neo Cons react if they discovered this? I suspect the same way that right-wing members of the CIA acted when they realised what JFK was up to in the summer of 1963. The only way he could be stopped was by having him assassinated.

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As much as I dislike far-right groups like the John Birch Society, I find it difficult to believe they were involved in the assassination of JFK.

What is clear is that their was an attempt to implicate several groups, both left and right, in the assassination of JFK. I suspect that the real plotters were doing this in order to spread confusion and cause problems for those investigating the crime. People like Bernard Weissman and Vaughn Marlowe were being created as possible “patsys”. As it happens, Lee Harvey Oswald, ended up taking the rap. If it had not been him, it would have been someone else.

If it was the John Birch Society, what was their motive? I assume they hated JFK because of his civil rights policies. However, they must have known that in November, 1963, there was very little chance of him getting this legislation through Congress. Nor was JFK trying too hard. He had to get the support of people like James Eastland, John Stennis, Richard Russell and Herman Talmadge in order to win the 1960 election (see Robert Kennedy’s private interview with Anthony Lewis in 1964 on this). RFK points out that their help was vital in the election win. It was also going to be vital in 1964. JFK was fully aware that he could not afford to upset the far right in the Deep South. Its leaders knew this business about Civil Rights was just PR.

This far-right theory also has another deep flaw. They did not on the surface appear to get what they wanted. LBJ becomes president and he uses his considerable power to force through Civil Rights legislation. This is legislation that he had spent his political life blocking. He even campaigned against attempts by Congress to introduce anti-lynching legislation. His financial backers were extreme racists.

When LBJ signed the 1964 Civil Rights Act he made a prophecy that he was “signing away the south for 50 years”. This proved accurate. In fact, the Democrats have never recovered the vote of the white racists in the Deep South. This is the electorate that now gives its support to the Republican Party.

LBJ is one of the shrewdest politicians of the modern era. Why would he do this? I think it is one of the great mysteries of modern history. I have tried to explain why he acted in this way here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1909

Of course, a very small group did know that JFK had developed more liberal opinions during 1963. This has to remain a secret because he knew he would never win the 1964 election if the American public knew he was no longer a Cold War warrior. In fact, this image of the tough guy willing to stand up to communism, was vitally important if he was going to win in 1964.

It is like George Bush being secretly converted to the idea that he needed to withdraw his troops from the Middle East and to put high taxes on fuel in order to stop global warming. However, he decided to keep this quiet until after the 2004 election. How would the leading Neo Cons react if they discovered this? I suspect the same way that right-wing members of the CIA acted when they realised what JFK was up to in the summer of 1963. The only way he could be stopped was by having him assassinated.

John,

There were members of the JBS that did mention killing JFK. This talk was not uncommon. Here's a specific instance with some additional detail:

HSCA Testimony of Loran Hall. Pg. 60

Mr. Triplett. Just give us a very brief description of the purpose of the meeting and those people there.

Hr. Hall. We were wasting our time with the hit and run raids in Cuba. It was a waste of effort. We were losing too much equipment, too many boats to the Coast Guard, CIA, FBI, the whole stick. Not only did we have to worry about fighting the Cubans but we had to fight the American Government also. So rather than go through all that Logue and myself decided what we would try to do was form a government-in-exile, Cuban government-in-exile, try to get all the groups to come together under one group. In order to do that we had to have someone, some Cuban who would be accepted by all of the groups. That was my job in Dallas, I mean Miami. We tried to do that. We couldn’t get that accomplished. The groups wouldn’t agree to one president. So we decided what we would try to do was get $50,000 between Logue and his group, get enough equipment and enough boats so we could make our raid into Cuba, get boats from Cuba so we could have a line of logistics between the United States and Cuba, and in that way possibly we could have ---at a later date get someone who would be accepted by all the different groups, and if we could have gotten enough equipment and enough people involved was [sic] and could have formed a government-in-exile.

Mr. Triplett. So essentially are you saying this meeting was for the purpose of raising money to accomplish this task?

Mr. Hall. Yes.

Mr. Triplett. And your role in the meeting, you, Loran Hall, were there sort of as a promoter or the person to explain it. Is this what your purpose was for being there?

Mr. Hall. I think it was. I was there mostly because I was you might say the military part of the operation.

Mr. Triplett. At that meeting was a comment made regarding the killing of President Kennedy?

Mr. Hall. Yes, there was.

Mr. Triplett. Which one of these persons that you have described made the comment?

Mr. Hall. The man by the name of Jack that owned the trucking company.

Mr. Triplett. What exactly did Jack say and do?

Mr. Hall. What we were saying, was between the five of them, they could come up with $10,000 apiece, come up with $50,000, that would be enough money to get us started. And Jack jumped up, or whatever his name was, jumped up and threw either his billfold or checkbook or something on the table and said, xxxx, I will put $50,000 in right now if the rest of you will match it, and we will have Kennedy’s head blowed off because with Johnson in as President, he is a Texan and Texans take care of Texans.

[…..]

pg 83.

Mr. Triplett. What was your purpose for being in Dallas at that time? [March, 1963]

Mr. Hall. That is when I went to, I think that was the time that I went to Dallas, Texas to see Lester Logue concerning forming a government-in-exile, a Cuban government-in-exile, at which time he agreed that it would be a avenue that would be worth looking into, at which time he got me a ticket and I flew back to Miami and I started pursuing that avenue.

[…]

Mr. Triplett. What were you doing during the daytime?

Mr. Hall. Contacting various people, trying to make contact for equipment. Lester Logue, I went and seen Niko [Crespi] several times and I think on one occasion Dan Smoot, and I seen Robert Morris, and I went to the newspaper place and talked to “Poor Richard” or whatever his pen name was.

-----------------

Weisberg interview of Hall Feb 1968.

Hall. [describing his two Cuban friends in Dallas. ] I remember one of them was kind of stout, real stout built and about, oh, I would say he was about 5’10” or 5’11”. – and the other one was short, he was probably 5’6”, small in stature and I know his dad owned a

Sugar plantation in Mexicalli.

[…]

Weisberg. Yeah.

Hall. And I went to see Keating [senator Keating], because I had sent Keating, that never did show – never came through because he never said a word about it.

Weisberg. Incidentally, and you may not want to talk about this it’s just curiosity, nothing directly to do with this- do you have any idea who was feeding Keating the stuff on the Cuban missile crisis?

Hall. Oh I have , I have a good idea who it was, I ah, I ah, don’t know for sure but I have a good idea – it was the CIA.

Pg 46.

Hall. Well, wait just a minute, it does in a way because we had talked, to uh, Duncan [Tom Duncan] and some of the other guys about going in and pulling a raid in Georgia out at Fort Benning where they carry all the , uh…

Weisberg. You mean to get some equipment.

Hall. Yeah, you know, you know, this is standard procedure, steal Army equipment. Hell, they’ve got it and we want it.

Weisberg. Well, there is reason to believe that it happened down in Texas.

Hall. Oh, we know it did.

Weisberg. Really?

Hall. Oh –haha.

Weisberg. Really know it happened, or is all you have is rumor.

Hall. We know..(laughter)

Weisberg. Care to tell me about it?

Hall. No, I don’t want to..

Weisberg. You know there were people involved…

Hall. I know quite a few people involved.

Weisberg. Did that stuff really get out?

Hall. Damn right it did.

Weisberg. Didn’t have anything to do with getting your boats in Dallas did it?

Hall. I’m not saying a word. (laughter) No, I can tell you that there was 250 VARS [sic] that got out.

[…]

Hall. They went to Majaris, from Majaris right, right into Cuba and they went to Oriente.

[…]

Hall. Yeah, do you know where Majaris Island is at?…Well it’s off Yucatan…there is an island called Majaris.

[..] pg 73

Hall. …We had a hell of a deal set up – we were going to take all the, uh, we were going to take Prio Socarres to Guatemala and we were going to invade Cuba from Guatemala into Oriente, set up a 24 hour holding period and ask the United Nations to come in and help us and we were going to do this and Prio Soccares got…Yeah, and do you know what. The dirty lousy son of a bitch wouldn’t do it. Prio Soccares flat turned me down and I had the money, I had the ground and I had everything set up.

Weisberg. Did you have an army?

Hall. You bet.

Dave

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Harry,

In addition to my previous question (see above) I have some more:

"William Pearson.. aka "Buck"?

Does that ring a bell for you?

Same question for:

'Austins BarBQ' in Oak Cliff,

or "Youngbloods Fried Chicken restaurant, also in Oak Cliff?

Did you know a "Tommy Pugh" of the Dallas PD?

Thanks in advance,

Wim

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Harry,

In addition to my previous question (see above) I have some more:

"William Pearson.. aka "Buck"?

Does that ring a bell for you?

Same question for:

'Austins BarBQ' in Oak Cliff,

or "Youngbloods Fried Chicken restaurant,  also in Oak Cliff?

Did you know a "Tommy Pugh" of the  Dallas PD?

Thanks in advance,

Wim

Sorry, my answer is ' no '

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Hello Harry:

Been a long time... Nice to see you and hope all has been well..

Questions please:

Would you know if the Citizens Councils that were spread and contained much power all through the South during these times.. and were extremely anti Communist and anti Kennedy as you mention....  if the Birch Society groups, were all contained under this Citizens Council name? ou mention the nationwide umbrella group... each city had it's own CC as you are aware, and all met under and with the Head Organization for a yearly conference from far and  wide..

As we know.. Walker played a role in the assassination of Kennedy. He was a strong supporter of the far-right John Birch Society. In April 1961 Walker was accused of indoctrinating his troops with right-wing literature. With the agreement of President John F. Kennedy, Defence Secretary Robert S. McNamara relieved Walker of his command and announced an investigation into the affair. Kennedy was accused of trying to suppress the anti-Communist feelings of the military. Walker resigned from the army in protest about the way he had been treated.

One of the soldiers who Walker successfully indoctrinated was Larrie Schmidt. After leaving the army he settled in Dallas. He was a member of the John Birch Society in Dallas. His brother worked as Walker’s chauffeur. Schmidt later invited Bernard Weissman to Dallas. Weissman was then introduced to Joe Grinnan, another member of the John Birch Society. Grinnan was involved in organizing protests against the visit of John F. Kennedy. Grinnan seemed to know about the visit before it was officially announced to the public. Grinnan suggested that they should place a black-bordered advertisement  in the Dallas Morning News on 22nd November, 1963. The advertisement cost $1,465. Grinnan supplied the money. He claimed that some of this came from Nelson Bunker Hunt, the son of Haroldson L. Hunt. Weissman was given the task of signing the advertisement and taking it to the newspaper office.

After the assassination, Walker, Grinnan, Weissman and Schmidt all fled from Dallas. Anything further on these men, that you might relate to us..?

One last thought ,does the name John Erik Jonsson, come to mind at all, re the Citizens Council... and Dallas...

Thanks Harry. B)

Bernice

Did not know of Jonsson. Re; the subversive war being

waged under the inflaming 'extreme influence' of Birch Society et al. literature, so-called apolitical/political efforts, and other more encouraged 'overt action' was aimed at the overthrough of the Status Que represented in Kennedy, Eisenhower and All, as far back as Roosevelt. In this Life or Death struggle to seize power, Kennedy, and the former system passed violently away.

Note;

Birch Society members were advised to follow instructions as individuals,not as

representing the Society. That advise was strictly followed by the Dallas group

and others you mentioned above.

H.Dean

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Hello Harry:

Would you know if the Citizens Councils that were spread and contained

much power all through the South during these times..and were extremely

anti Communist and anti Kennedy as you mention....

As we know.....

Walker played a role in the assassination of Kennedy. He was a strong supporter of the far-right John Birch Society. In April 1961 Walker was accused of indoctrinating his troops with right-wing literature. With the agreement of President John F. Kennedy, Defence Secretary Robert S. McNamara relieved Walker of his command and announced an investigation into the affair. Kennedy was accused of trying to suppress the anti-Communist feelings of the military. Walker resigned from the army in protest about the way he had been treated.

Grinnan suggested that they should place a black-bordered advertisement  in the Dallas Morning News on 22nd November, 1963. The advertisement cost $1,465. Grinnan supplied the money. He claimed that some of this came from Nelson Bunker Hunt, the son of Haroldson L. Hunt. Weissman was given the task of signing the advertisement and taking it to the newspaper office.

After the assassination, Walker, Grinnan, Weissman and Schmidt all fled from Dallas. Anything further on these men, that you might relate to us..?

Bernice

Bernice,

What difference does any of this make, other than your unqualified assertion that "As we know.....Walker played a role in the assassination of Kennedy"? This is the first that I've heard of Grinnan initiating the black-bordered ad AND supplying the money (since the "son of Haroldson L. Hunt," otherwise particularly known as NELSON BUNKER HUNT, as opposed to his other sons, Lamar and Herbert, was hardly penniless). But what about the assertion that the reason, as you say, that "Weissman was given the task of signing the advertisement" was that he had a Jewish name? When you say that Walker was "accused of indoctrinating his troops with right-wing literature," do you intend to question the legitimacy of that accusation? Have you seen the flyer Walker distributed to American troops under his command in Germany? Are you aware that Walker was committed to a mental institution as a result of his behavior in Germany? Bottom-line, other than your wild, unsupported assertion of Walker's supposed "role in the assassination," what is your point?

Tim

Hey, Tim

Grinnan and his group did do the black border ad,among other activities,and he

was a Birch Society leader in Texas.

Walker was tossed into a federal mental institution after and because of the

Mississippi trouble in 1962.

H.Dean

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Edited by Tim Carroll
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Hey, Tim

Grinnan and his group did do the black border ad,among other activities,and he

was a Birch Society leader in Texas.

Walker was tossed into a federal mental institution after and because of the

Mississippi trouble in 1962.

H.Dean

Harry,

I understand that Grinnan was part of the group, with Weissman and Nelson Bunker Hunt. I was taking exception to the assertion that Grinnan specifically and individually "initiated" and paid for the black-bordered ad. I stand corrected about the 'Ole Miss trouble, which came very shortly after Walker's military career was ended as a result of his behavior in Germany. By the way, can you tell me what Walker specifically did in Mississippi that was so bizarre?

Tim

Tim,

Walker resigned from the military after being busted for {U.S. domestic ant-communist and anti-Russian Soviet campaigning} from his position in Germany so he could speak-out freely against Kennedy against what the Birch Society also

called 'Kennedy Communist domestic and foreign policies'.

Bob Kennedy had Walker tossed-in the federal mental ward for 'alleged' incitement

to riot in making ant- administration statements,and simply because of his presence at the mississippi affair. Walker later sued a lot of people/organisations and won.

H.Dean

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Thanks Harry for the information, nice to hear from you.. :)

**************************************************

Tim:...Your a Different Matter....

A: Do not ever try to put words into my mouth. Do not try to reword, put assertions, nor twist my words..nor ever imply that I have not the right to my opinion...nor anyone elses....

B: Improve the tone of your response, in particular when the post is not directed to you....

C: I will reply to this one post from you..improve your Forum etiquette, as they say..

**********

Tim:Said: ""What difference does any of this make, other than your unqualified assertion that "As we know.....Walker played a role in the assassination of Kennedy"? ""...

General Edwin Walker, was inconsistant in his responses.....at first his attitude seems to have been..LHO did shoot at him.??..

http://www.geocities.com/damianburns/JFK4.htm

..Later he stated he did not think it was him...?? as I hope you are aware..

Walker's name and phone number were also discovered in Oswald's address book..

Michael Paine had taken LHO to a meeting with General Walker in attendance shortly before the assassination..

http://www.geocities.com/damianburns/JFK4.htm

This was all part of the planning of setting up of the Patsy..Dallas was very involved in some areas of the Assassination..IMO.

******************************************

Bernice Said:"" He claimed that some of this came from Nelson Bunker Hunt, the son of Haroldson L. Hunt. ""

Tim Said: ""(since the "son of Haroldson L. Hunt," otherwise particularly known as NELSON BUNKER HUNT, as opposed to his other sons, Lamar and Herbert, was hardly penniless""

??..That does not make sense...IMO

**************************

Tim Said:""This is the first that I've heard of Grinnan initiating the black-bordered ad AND supplying the money ..""

Bernice Says: "

Joe Weissman Testimony.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk..._Vol5_0257b.htm

and

Harry has also informed you of that information.

**********************************************************

Tim SAID:"" But what about the assertion that the reason, as you say, that "Weissman was given the task of signing the advertisement" was that he had a Jewish name?""

Bernice SAID::""Weissman was given the task of signing the advertisement and taking it to the newspaper office.""........

Reread My Post....The Person Making This Assertion, is Certainly Not Me..

It Is YOU?? Why??

*************************************

Tim: ""When you say that Walker was "accused of indoctrinating his troops with right-wing literature,"

He was accused, because of inflammatory rhetoric which encouraged troops under his command to join the John Birch Society....and he angrily resigned....

Tim:""do you intend to question the legitimacy of that accusation?""

How would you ever know what I or anyone else ever intends.??..Do not put words into my mouth nor anyone elses, he was accused......and resigned..

*********************************

Tim Said:""Have you seen the flyer Walker distributed to American troops under his command in Germany?"" I do not recall.

Tim Said:""Are you aware that Walker was committed to a mental institution as a result of his behavior in Germany?"" It was Mississippi.

Tim Said:""Bottom-line, other than your wild, unsupported assertion of Walker's supposed "role in the assassination," what is your point. ""

My point is my opinion, to which I am entitled .My post was directed to somone else, not to you.

Why did you insert yourself ,with such a lousy attitude??.I have never had any response from you or to you, on any Forum...so why??

Your tone in your post stinks.....Take a deep breath, and do not exhale ,you will feel better....

B... B)

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....thats what I'm talkin about...

JOHN

Wasn't this the John Birch Society Thread?

The John Birch Society, now that group was the core of the right wing political support

for Barry Goldwater in 1964.

Militants were rampant, and there actual ideology was a conspiracy theory, bankers, elites, you know, anti-semitic super patriots. Well, they formed the very core of the post Goldwater force called Ronald Reagan. With the help of their compatriots and followers at YAF, young americans for freedom, the John Birchers moved into Reagan, tax-cut, gun, militia and especially, Ronald Reagan... in California. While I know they had extremist members, but they didnt kill Kennedy.

Some got tipped off, or minor roles, but not structurally, the John Birch Society, no.

Shanet

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Tim:...Your a Different Matter....

A: Do not ever try to put words into my mouth. Do not try to reword, put assertions, nor twist my words..nor ever imply that I have not the right to my opinion...nor anyone elses....

B: Improve the tone of your response, in particular when the post is not directed to you....

C: I will reply to this one post from you..improve your Forum etiquette, as they say..

"As we know.....Walker played a role in the assassination of Kennedy"? "

Tim Said: "This is the first that I've heard of Grinnan initiating the black-bordered ad AND supplying the money...."

Bernice Says: "

Joe Weissman Testimony.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk..._Vol5_0257b.htm

and

Harry has also informed you of that information.

B... B)

Bernice:

1. This is a forum and I responded to a post. If yours was meant exclusively for someone else, then a forum posting is not the appropriate methodology. There's this new thing called e-mail. I feel perfectly entitled to "insert" myself into any thread I choose. I believe that it was John Simkin who initiated this thread. I participate here at his invitation.

2. I did comment, and am commenting again now, on the tone of your certainty in saying "As we know...Walker played a role in the assassination of Kennedy." I responded to what seemed a rhetorical, "as we know." I didn't understand that you literally meant just you and Harry when you said, "as we know." Given that this is a forum, and I was behaving with forum etiquette, I thought you meant the collective "we."

3. You're taking exception to my statement, "This is the first that I've heard of Grinnan initiating the black-bordered ad AND supplying the money...." You referred me to a link to Weissman's testimony, as if to inform me of something that differs with what I said. Weissman's testimony about Joe Grinnan supplying the money is, "Now, as far as I know, Joe didn't put any of this money up personally...."

4. I concede that I probably shouldn't have jumped in on this one as I have forgotten much of what I once knew about Walker and the Birchers because of the conclusion I came to long ago that they were blustering small-timers. No wonder they call the John Birch Society a "fringe group."

Chill

Edited by Tim Carroll
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