Joseph Backes Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Folks, Honestly, this is a complete waste of time. Going into the JFK online database and finding documents that have been postponed in full there and then reproducing the full text image you get from that here is a huge waste of space for this forum. Let me tell you why. The Archives II people have not been updating that system, at all. You're only seeing what was initially put in there. I don't think there's ever been any update to it at all. To do so was not seen as a priority. They have cut the staff down a lot. There is no public spotlight on them so they get away with doing this. You should really have all the notices that the ARRB published in the Federal Register regarding document releases. Final Determinations for some changed during the lifetime of the ARRB and were so noted in the published notices in the Federal Register. The ARRB made some decisions to open in full documents after they sunset, leaving to NARA to follow up on that. They often didn't bother. Sometimes they did. For example, how many people went into Archives II with the Federal Register notices in hand providing the information that such and such document was to be opened in full sometime after the ARRB sunset, like in 2005? And asked the JFK staff go get them please? I'd wager not many. There's been a lot of talk from Bill Kelly and others of this 1% of the JFK documents still being withheld based on what a now former member of the National Declassification Center said at a public hearing. There has been mentioned on forums and within the JFK assassination research community a list of over 1,000 documents currently listed as postponed in full - PIF. I have asked Archives II, the NDC, and BIll Kelly to get such a list of RIF numbers for these documents to no avail. What should be posted on here is just a plain list of RIF numbers, with, if possible the agency number. That would be helpful. We can go on our own to the JFK online database for more information on a specific document, to see what such and such RIF number was all about, but I'm telling you, from years of experience, that that thing is hopelessly outdated, and unreliable. Every RIF number listed in this thread should be cross checked against what was published by the ARRB in The Federal Register. And you should cross check with the Mary Ferrell Foundation. You're only arming yourself with a fragment of the necessary info you need to know whether or not a document is still PIF. And if you go to Archives II in person you may be pleasantly surprised to find it open. It's not necessarily so that a document listed as PIF at one point, still is. I think they are just waiting until 2017 and then they will release everything they can. Everything that an agency won't object to being released. Joe Backes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted December 4, 2012 Author Share Posted December 4, 2012 Folks, Honestly, this is a complete waste of time. BK: I don't know what Joe is talking about here, as I think that the idea of focusing on the withheld records is not a complete waste of time, and it doesn't matter when they declassify them, whenever they do we should be on top of them and read what they have been trying to with hold from us. Why not focus on the with held records? Going into the JFK online database and finding documents that have been postponed in full there and then reproducing the full text image you get from that here is a huge waste of space for this forum. BK: That's not what we're doing. We are trying to identify what records have been withheld and then reviewing them as they are released. Let me tell you why. The Archives II people have not been updating that system, at all. You're only seeing what was initially put in there. I don't think there's ever been any update to it at all. To do so was not seen as a priority. They have cut the staff down a lot. There is no public spotlight on them so they get away with doing this. BK: Well, let's shine a light on them. They have been talking about upgrading the Archives info for years, and every FOIA request, once released, should be posted on line so others don't have to go through the same old BS process when it has already been done. They should post every document that is requested from the public. You should really have all the notices that the ARRB published in the Federal Register regarding document releases. Final Determinations for some changed during the lifetime of the ARRB and were so noted in the published notices in the Federal Register. The ARRB made some decisions to open in full documents after they sunset, leaving to NARA to follow up on that. BK: I just happen to have a press release from the ARRB for every time they voted on records and published in the Federal Register, and have segregated the postponed records from those released. What shall I do with it? They often didn't bother. Sometimes they did. For example, how many people went into Archives II with the Federal Register notices in hand providing the information that such and such document was to be opened in full sometime after the ARRB sunset, like in 2005? And asked the JFK staff go get them please? I'd wager not many. BK: I'll supply the notices if anybody has the time and inclination to do this. There's been a lot of talk from Bill Kelly and others of this 1% of the JFK documents still being withheld based on what a now former member of the National Declassification Center said at a public hearing. There has been mentioned on forums and within the JFK assassination research community a list of over 1,000 documents currently listed as postponed in full - PIF. I have asked Archives II, the NDC, and BIll Kelly to get such a list of RIF numbers for these documents to no avail. BK: Why am I responsible for getting the RIF numbers for you when you can get them from the government yourself, as I did? I will give them to you but what will you do with them? What should be posted on here is just a plain list of RIF numbers, with, if possible the agency number. That would be helpful. BK: Maybe I'll scan what I have and post them when I have time. We can go on our own to the JFK online database for more information on a specific document, to see what such and such RIF number was all about, but I'm telling you, from years of experience, that that thing is hopelessly outdated, and unreliable. Every RIF number listed in this thread should be cross checked against what was published by the ARRB in The Federal Register. And you should cross check with the Mary Ferrell Foundation. You're only arming yourself with a fragment of the necessary info you need to know whether or not a document is still PIF. And if you go to Archives II in person you may be pleasantly surprised to find it open. BK: Okay, so its not a big waste of time if we take what we know was Postponed In Full and is now released, so we can then read it, and will also learn what is still being withheld, which is what we want to know anyway. So its not such a big waste of time if you learn something new. It's not necessarily so that a document listed as PIF at one point, still is. I think they are just waiting until 2017 and then they will release everything they can. Everything that an agency won't object to being released. Joe Backes BK: So the bottom line is there are still many thousands of documents still being withheld under the JFK Act, and while that number is not known to NARA, we can identify specific records and read their subject and topics and learn a lot from just the RIFs, which is what I said in the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Backes Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 No, as usual Bill doesn't get it. The complete waste of time I was and still am referring to is the reproduction of the full print out of information from the RIF. It needlessly wastes space on this forum. Also, the information from the JFK online database is severely out of date with the current condition of the entire JFK Records Collection. Things have been released in one of three ways, open in full, postponed in part, or postponed in full, and just shoved into the JFK Records Collection often with little or no updating at all to the online JFK database. It's not the strategy of focusing on the Postponed In Full documents that is the problem, it's the tactic currently being used that I find fault with. I don't understand why FOIA requests are even relevant. FOIA is horrible has been horrible for years. That's why John Newman was excited about the JFK Act because they were going to have to let stuff go in buckets and then truck loads. Making FOIA requests public and their outcomes public is really a separate issue from the JFK Act and the JFK Records Collection. You were the one going on and on about there being these 1,700 plus CIA documents that were being withheld in full. I have asked repeatedly for this list of RIFs. Instead of sharing that info, if indeed you do have such a list, you've done nothing with it. Give me that list and I'll do something with it. If you have it electronically, just email it to me. What should be going on here is the sharing of information. There should just be a list of RIFs with the agency numbers of documents postponed in full on a website or a blog. I don't need anything more than that. Just two columns, one for the RIF number, if there is one, and often with CIA documents in particular there really isn't one, and the agency file number. That's it. Then take that list and cross check it with every thing the ARRB published in the Federal Register. Then cross reference that with the Mary Ferrell Foundation. Then you go into Archives II and see if indeed every document on that list is indeed Postponed in Full. If so, record what it says about why it is postponed in full and when if any date is given for release. Or, maybe, just maybe the info in the stuff the ARRB published will tell you that such and such a document should have been released in full by now, and should have been so, perhaps years ago. That's how to do this properly. All of this information could be and should be shared. The hard work of physically going to Archives II and checking the true status of the documents could be divided up among people who will go to Archives II when they can. My idea is a better approach. You're getting information from 3 sources, not 1, and you're going into Archives II with all the information there is and checking to see if the documents on your PIF list are indeed postponed in full. This involves checking the documents one by one. And even if you confirm they are PIF I have another idea that might work to find them open in full. Bottom line is, you don't know, or don't want to learn, how to do this properly. One of us has a track record of doing exactly this kind of work properly. And one of us doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted December 29, 2012 Author Share Posted December 29, 2012 Folks, Honestly, this is a complete waste of time. Going into the JFK online database and finding documents that have been postponed in full there and then reproducing the full text image you get from that here is a huge waste of space for this forum. Let me tell you why. The Archives II people have not been updating that system, at all. You're only seeing what was initially put in there. I don't think there's ever been any update to it at all. To do so was not seen as a priority. They have cut the staff down a lot. There is no public spotlight on them so they get away with doing this. BK: THAT's understood You should really have all the notices that the ARRB published in the Federal Register regarding document releases. Final Determinations for some changed during the lifetime of the ARRB and were so noted in the published notices in the Federal Register. BK: I have every notice they published. The ARRB made some decisions to open in full documents after they sunset, leaving to NARA to follow up on that. They often didn't bother. Sometimes they did. For example, how many people went into Archives II with the Federal Register notices in hand providing the information that such and such document was to be opened in full sometime after the ARRB sunset, like in 2005? And asked the JFK staff go get them please? I'd wager not many. BK: In 2006 the CIA processed and declassified all of the records they were supposed to declassify in 2010, so many of those records are now available, and it proves the CIA can, if it wants to, declassify those records ahead of time. There's been a lot of talk from Bill Kelly and others of this 1% of the JFK documents still being withheld based on what a now former member of the National Declassification Center said at a public hearing. There has been mentioned on forums and within the JFK assassination research community a list of over 1,000 documents currently listed as postponed in full - PIF. I have asked Archives II, the NDC, and BIll Kelly to get such a list of RIF numbers for these documents to no avail. BK: I think the over 1,000 records you refer to are the ones that have been turned over to NARA but have not yet been declassified. I don't have the RIF numbers, but Jim Lesar should know what you are talking about and could answer your question. I can't. What should be posted on here is just a plain list of RIF numbers, with, if possible the agency number. That would be helpful. BK: Posting the entire RIF does not take up much space and the most important information in the RIFs are the Subject matter and number of pages, not the number. We can go on our own to the JFK online database for more information on a specific document, to see what such and such RIF number was all about, but I'm telling you, from years of experience, that that thing is hopelessly outdated, and unreliable. Every RIF number listed in this thread should be cross checked against what was published by the ARRB in The Federal Register. And you should cross check with the Mary Ferrell Foundation. You're only arming yourself with a fragment of the necessary info you need to know whether or not a document is still PIF. And if you go to Archives II in person you may be pleasantly surprised to find it open. BK: That's understood. It's not necessarily so that a document listed as PIF at one point, still is. I think they are just waiting until 2017 and then they will release everything they can. Everything that an agency won't object to being released. Joe Backes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted December 29, 2012 Author Share Posted December 29, 2012 (edited) Joe Backes wrote: No, as usual Bill doesn't get it. Bottom line is, you don't know, or don't want to learn, how to do this properly. One of us has a track record of doing exactly this kind of work properly. And one of us doesn't. BK: It's a shame that JB is such a jackbutt, and certainly earned his reputation as a Backestabber from people who have tried to work with him in the past. I'll let others decide who has a track record of doing this kind of work properly and which one of us doesn't. JFKcountercoup JFKCountercoup2 Edited December 29, 2012 by William Kelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 Apparently the only way to obtain the RIFFS of those docs postponed until 2017 is to get them from the Federal Register. I did have the lists of some of the docs published in the Federal Register and have posted them here: If someone can check the internet at NARA or Mary Ferrell or go to the Archives II to pull and copy them, the RIFFs will tell us the subject of the documents still being withheld. JFKCountercoup2: RIFFs of Docs Postponed Until 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted January 10, 2013 Author Share Posted January 10, 2013 Jim Lesar made a FOIA request for all NARA correspondence with the CIA and among other interesting items is a request by Joe for the RIFs of docs withheld until 2017. I don't know if they answered Joe, but among themselves they decided it was too much work to print out the RIFs of the over 1,000 CIA docs they have that are being withheld. The RIFs were published in the Federal Register by the ARRB when they made the determination, and from the Federal Registers that I have in my files I have posted the RIFs of the ones that were listed as postponed until 2017. Thanks to anyone who goes to these RIFs and shares their subject matter with me so I can post it. BK Joe Backes wrote: 6/13/12 Dear Mr. Stern, In your letter to Mr. Jim Lesar of the Assassination Archives and Research Center dated June 12, 2012 you stated that there are 1,171 CIA documents in the JFK Assassination Records Collection that are being withheld in full until 2017. Do you have the Reader Identification Form (RIF) numbers for those documents? Thank you, Joseph Backes From: Martha Murphy To: Stern, GaryM Date: 6/15/2012 Subject: Re: Fwd: Your letter to Mr. Jim Lesar Gary, You and I discussed this on the shuttle. Do you need any further information from me on this issue? The basic answer is that all of the postponed in full documents are listed in the on-line database, but you cannot search by the document status field, so there’s not easy way to get a list of the documents from the web. The only way we could do it from the master system is to print out all 1,171 record identification forms, the system cannot produce a list of RIFs for us. I’m not willing to do that right now. “…the JFK Assassination database online at: http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/search.html is the only documentation in NARA regarding those CIA documents withheld until 2017.” “The files of the ARRB are open with the exception of personnel files and some closed voting records.” JFKCountercoup2: RIFs of Docs Postponed Until 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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