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How many rifles were found on the 6th floor?


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Len - what is the alyea film? Also, what is your response to the NBC Enfield rifle story?

Len - what is the alyea film?

It was footage shot by WFAA cameraman Tom Alyea at the moment the rifle was recovered, It shows a Carcano. So did the stills shot at the time or shortly thereafter below are just two of several:

CE514--Rifle-When-Discovered.jpg

Lt.%2BDay%2BWith%2BRifle%2BOutside%2BTSBD%2B%252811-22-63%2529.jpg

Thanks DVP for the photo links.

Also, what is your response to the NBC Enfield rifle story?

The news media often makes mistakes in breaking news situations, "Dewey Wins", 'Brady died', the miners in WV were rescued alive etc. there were numerous errors regarding the Newtown shootings.

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The only question I have is... with everyone claiming the 2nd floor from the top, SE corner... why does it take from 12:37 till 1:22 to find the shells and rifle?

Frank Ellis and Sawyer REPEATEDLY stated the evidence was found on the 5th floor ... Ellis says it was moved up to the sixth... That was the ORIGINAL STORY

As early as 12:36 they know the spot where the shooter was supposedly seen... yet it's 40 minutes before the rifle and shells are found...

Does that sound reasonable to you?

DJ

12:34 142 (Patrolman C.A. Haygood) I just talked to a guy up here who was standing close to it and the best he could tell it came from the Texas School Book Depository Building here with that Hertz Renting sign on top.

12:36 260 (Sergeant D.V. Harkness) I have a witness that says that it came from the 5th floor of the Texas Book Depository Store.

12:37 22 (Patrolman L.L. Hill) Get some men up here to cover this school depository building. It's believed the shot came from, as you see it on Elm Street, it would be upper right hand corner, second window from the end.

12:37 137 (Patrolman E.D. Brewer) We have a man here who says he saw him pull the weapon back through the window off of the second floor from the southeast corner of that depository building

12:41 Dispatcher 2 (Batchelor) there's a possibility that 6 or 7 more people may have been hit.

12:44 Dispatcher Yes, 12:44 p.m.

12:44 9 (Inspector J.H. Sawyer) The type of weapon looked like a 30-30 rifle or some type of Winchester.

12:44 Dispatcher 9, it was a rifle?

12:44 9 (Inspector J.H. Sawyer) A rifle, yes.

12:44 Dispatcher 9, any clothing description?

12:44 9 (Inspector J.H. Sawyer) About 30, 5'10", 165 pounds.

12:45 Dispatcher Attention all squads, the suspect in the shooting at Elm and Houston is supposed to be an unknown white male, approximately 30, 165 pounds, slender build, armed with what is thought to be a 30-30 rifle, - repeat, unknown white male, approximately 30, 165 pounds, slender build. No further description at this time or information, 12:45 p.m.

12:45 531 (Sergeant G.D. Henslee) Well, all the information we have receive, 9(Sawyer), indicates that it did come from about the 5th or 4th floor of that building.

12:47 Dispatcher Signal 19, involving the President. Suspect: white male, thirty, slender build, five feet ten inches, one hundred sixty-five pounds, believed to have used 30 caliber rifle. Believed to be in the old School Book Depository, Elm and Houston, at this time.

1:11 9 (Inspector J.H. Sawyer) On the 5th floor of this book company down here, we found empty rifle hulls and it looked like the man had been here for some time. We are checking it out now.

RIFLE FOUND AT 1:22 ON 6TH FLOOR

1:33 Dispatcher Notify 9 that we have information that the ladder that runs up to the roof on this building there is concealed space under a sheet metal plate, sheet metal has to be raised and there is some concealed space under that sheet metal. 1:33 p.m.

Edited by David Josephs
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The only question I have is... with everyone claiming the 2nd floor from the top, SE corner... why does it take from 12:37 till 1:22 to find the shells and rifle?

Huhh? Everyone? You quoted Harkness as saying 5th, Hill saying "upper right hand corner" and Sawyer saying 4th or 5th. Being told the wrong floor would explain the delay. Also IIRC a few witness indicated the 6th or upper floors.

Frank Ellis and Sawyer REPEATEDLY stated the evidence was found on the 5th floor ... Ellis says it was moved up to the sixth... That was the ORIGINAL STORY

Huhh? The original story is that it was moved? Do you have a source for your claim about Ellis? As for Sawyer isn't the most likely explanation be that he was mistaken? What would be the point of planting the rifle on the 5th then moments later moving it to the 6th? Alyea said he accompanied the cops as they searched floor to floor starting at the bottom and they found it on the 6th, I assume others indicated this as well.

As early as 12:36 they know the spot where the shooter was supposedly seen... yet it's 40 minutes before the rifle and shells are found...

Does that sound reasonable to you?

DJ

Yes if they were not sure of the floor and the shells were partially concealed by boxes.

You seem to take issue with the rifle being found 11 minutes after the shells, if so why? You also seem to take issue with a witness (either Sawyer or someone who spoke to him) who only would have seen the barrel briefly from a distance thinking it "looked like a 30-30 rifle or some type of Winchester", why?

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Lee... how does Yates' story fit into your scenario?

The actual Carcano taken in and hidden as well as it being in the paper bag that is "found" yet never photographed (as I can't see how it could have been made on the 22nd)

Isn't that yet a 4th rifle to consider?

Cheers

DJ

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Lee... how does Yates' story fit into your scenario?

The actual Carcano taken in and hidden as well as it being in the paper bag that is "found" yet never photographed (as I can't see how it could have been made on the 22nd)

Isn't that yet a 4th rifle to consider?

Cheers

DJ

If Yates' story is true, David, then it could have been the Carcano that was found. I've been intensively researching Yates' story for quite a few months now and still do not know what to make of it.

My main point is that whether a real Enfield or a real Mauser were found or whether they were simply reported as being found, I cannot buy into the coincidence that both these types of weapons had direct links to people who would help define the official narrative.

EDIT:

P.S. I believe Warren Caster gave his Warren Commission testimony with Bill Shelley sat with him.

Was the Mauser that made a trip to the TSBD a 7.65 or a 7.62, the more popular version?

I ask since Boone and Weitzman were SPECIFIC about the caliber when they really didn't have to be....

Without SEEING a 7.65mm on the rifle there would be no reason to call it such. Especially since our MC has 6.5 stamped right on it.

I still have yet to see a photo a a single MAUSER with 7.65 stamped on it "in plain sight" yet since the 7.65 is about the same size as the 30.06... there is good reason to see why they may be "confused" but no good reason for the coincidence of THOSE types of rifles being at the TSBD THAT WEEK....

and Given what I've read about the gun smuggling going on at the TSBD... it is not surprising to think that the activity earlier in the week had to do with THAT TSBD business as opposed to Oswald....

the only thing connecting the shots to 6.5mm is CE399 and the rifle, right? the fragments cannot be traced back to specific sized ammo...?

We have no idea what occurred on the other floors during those 40 minutes... other than some strange testimony from Sawyer and the contradiction with Truly KNOWING he spoke to Fritz much earlier than previously thought.

A conspirator thinking out loud:

"It doesn't matter what rifle(s) they find... it will be seen as a conspiracy to kill JFK, one of the rifles can be traced back to Oswald while the others... will be part of shipments going to Cuba...

(we have all the weapons we need right there at the TSBD and "they" got Oswald to order a MC from Kleins as HIDELL)"

As with so much "conspiracy" evidence... the other rifle(s) and shells, etc... simply disappeared, like the shirt Oswald wore to work. Once LONE NUT was established... the only thing to explain away is Mexico City and Sylvia Odio which are either LNer lies of the CIA or proof of Oswald the conspirator... can't have it both ways....

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The only question I have is... with everyone claiming the 2nd floor from the top, SE corner... why does it take from 12:37 till 1:22 to find the shells and rifle?

Huhh? Everyone? You quoted Harkness as saying 5th, Hill saying "upper right hand corner" and Sawyer saying 4th or 5th. Being told the wrong floor would explain the delay. Also IIRC a few witness indicated the 6th or upper floors.

The witnesses all placed the shooting in the upper right corner of the TSBD... If Brennen or Euins or Rowland or Worrell where asked, which they were, they would tell you the 2nd wondow down from the top right hand corner....

SAWYER goes to the 4th floor and drops off two policement at 12:34... and comes back alone. Read the testimony - it's absurd. The building was left wide open for 30 minutes if not longer... the QUESTION Len, is what happens between 12:37 and 1:22, almost 45 minutes... while the KEY WITNESSES all told DPD exactly where the shots where fired from... ?? D

Frank Ellis and Sawyer REPEATEDLY stated the evidence was found on the 5th floor ... Ellis says it was moved up to the sixth... That was the ORIGINAL STORY

Huhh? The original story is that it was moved? Do you have a source for your claim about Ellis? As for Sawyer isn't the most likely explanation be that he was mistaken? What would be the point of planting the rifle on the 5th then moments later moving it to the 6th? Alyea said he accompanied the cops as they searched floor to floor starting at the bottom and they found it on the 6th, I assume others indicated this as well.

Ellsworth, not Ellis... my bad. You really need to read Sawyer's testimony... IMO Sawyer was one of the bad guys.

But what the officers found may very well have been a Mauser considering what Frank Ellsworth saw in the Depository that day. Ellsworth was an agent of the Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms agency and was in his office not far from the Depository when he was told of the shooting. He ran to the Depository and entered the building with Captain Will Fritz. Ellsworth claims he found the sniper's nest on the sixth floor, but the "gun was not found on the same floor as the cartridges, but on a lower floor by a couple of city detectives... I think the rifle was found on the fourth floor." [32] Ellsworth participated in a second search of the Depository after 1:30 p.m. on November 22, 1963. The gun that was found was an Italian Mannlicher-Carcano hidden behind boxes near the "stairwell back in the northwest corner ... I have the recollection that the position it was in, and where it was found, led to conjecture that as Oswald came down the stairs he probably pitched it over behind these books." [33] Ellsworth has stood by his original assessment of where the Mannlicher-Carcano was found in a 1993 interview with authors Ray and Mary LaFontaine.

32. Russell, Dick. The Man Who Knew Too Much, Carroll and Graf, 1992, p. 568.

33. Ibid, p. 569

As early as 12:36 they know the spot where the shooter was supposedly seen... yet it's 40 minutes before the rifle and shells are found...

Does that sound reasonable to you?

DJ

Yes if they were not sure of the floor and the shells were partially concealed by boxes.

You seem to take issue with the rifle being found 11 minutes after the shells, if so why? You also seem to take issue with a witness (either Sawyer or someone who spoke to him) who only would have seen the barrel briefly from a distance thinking it "looked like a 30-30 rifle or some type of Winchester", why?

Not taking issue at all... again, read TRULY's testimony related to talking to Lumpkin and going to see Fritz... I think you will find it very illuminating.

That it looked like a 30-30 is NOT the point of this thread.... except that the broadcast is at 12:44... and as a result of SOMEONE seeing it... "it LOOKED LIKE..." so either one of the four men named TOLD him this, which also included WHERE they saw this 30-30 looking rifle sticking out from, and STILL they do not go to THAT CORNER for some time yet.... or Sawyer saw it and had one of the men MOVE IT.... or ???

There are too many mentions of THAT CORNER for it to take so long for ANYONE to reach there... IMO.

Looked like there were more police arresting Oswald at the theater than looking for the rifle in the TSBD.... or being concerned that an ARMED ASSASSIN was laying in wait within the TSBD...

DJ

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My latest (Len)

The only question I have is... with everyone claiming the 2nd floor from the top, SE corner... why does it take from 12:37 till 1:22 to find the shells and rifle?

Huhh? Everyone? You quoted Harkness as saying 5th, Hill saying "upper right hand corner" and Sawyer saying 4th or 5th. Being told the wrong floor would explain the delay. Also IIRC a few witness indicated the 6th or upper floors.

The witnesses all placed the shooting in the upper right corner of the TSBD... If Brennen or Euins or Rowland or Worrell where asked, which they were, they would tell you the 2nd wondow down from the top right hand corner....

SAWYER goes to the 4th floor and drops off two policement at 12:34... and comes back alone. Read the testimony - it's absurd. The building was left wide open for 30 minutes if not longer... the QUESTION Len, is what happens between 12:37 and 1:22, almost 45 minutes... while the KEY WITNESSES all told DPD exactly where the shots where fired from... ?? D

The building was NOT “left wide open” it was sealed off a few minutes after the shooting*. It of course took time to collect those accounts. What difference do you think it would have made if the rifle and shells had been found a few minutes earlier?

*

Frank Ellis and Sawyer REPEATEDLY stated the evidence was found on the 5th floor ... Ellis says it was moved up to the sixth... That was the ORIGINAL STORY

Huhh? The original story is that it was moved? Do you have a source for your claim about Ellis? As for Sawyer isn't the most likely explanation be that he was mistaken? What would be the point of planting the rifle on the 5th then moments later moving it to the 6th? Alyea said he accompanied the cops as they searched floor to floor starting at the bottom and they found it on the 6th, I assume others indicated this as well.

Ellsworth, not Ellis... my bad. You really need to read Sawyer's testimony... IMO Sawyer was one of the bad guys.

But what the officers found may very well have been a Mauser considering what Frank Ellsworth saw in the Depository that day. Ellsworth was an agent of the Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms agency and was in his office not far from the Depository when he was told of the shooting. He ran to the Depository and entered the building with Captain Will Fritz. Ellsworth claims he found the sniper's nest on the sixth floor, but the "gun was not found on the same floor as the cartridges, but on a lower floor by a couple of city detectives... I think the rifle was found on the fourth floor." [32] Ellsworth participated in a second search of the Depository after 1:30 p.m. on November 22, 1963. The gun that was found was an Italian Mannlicher-Carcano hidden behind boxes near the "stairwell back in the northwest corner ... I have the recollection that the position it was in, and where it was found, led to conjecture that as Oswald came down the stairs he probably pitched it over behind these books." [33] Ellsworth has stood by his original assessment of where the Mannlicher-Carcano was found in a 1993 interview with authors Ray and Mary LaFontaine.

32. Russell, Dick. The Man Who Knew Too Much, Carroll and Graf, 1992, p. 568.

33. Ibid, p. 569

Huhh? You described this as the “original story” but it came from an account given decades later published in 1992. Do we even have confirmation this Ellsworth character was who he said was and was where he said he was? The ATF did not even exist until 1968, its predecessor at the time was the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Division (ATTD) of the IRS*. We know Alyea was there and he said it was found on the 6
th
floor and filmed it being found there.

*

As for Sawyer post the part of his testimony you find so damming. And if he was one of the bad guys why would he have said the rifle was found on the 4th or 5
th
floor?
As early as 12:36 they know the spot where the shooter was supposedly seen... yet it's 40 minutes before the rifle and shells are found...

Does that sound reasonable to you?

DJ

Yes if they were not sure of the floor and the shells were partially concealed by boxes.

You seem to take issue with the rifle being found 11 minutes after the shells, if so why? You also seem to take issue with a witness (either Sawyer or someone who spoke to him) who only would have seen the barrel briefly from a distance thinking it "looked like a 30-30 rifle or some type of Winchester", why?

Not taking issue at all... again, read TRULY's testimony related to talking to Lumpkin and going to see Fritz... I think you will find it very illuminating.

That it looked like a 30-30 is NOT the point of this thread.... except that the broadcast is at 12:44... and as a result of SOMEONE seeing it... "it LOOKED LIKE..." so either one of the four men named TOLD him this, which also included WHERE they saw this 30-30 looking rifle sticking out from, and STILL they do not go to THAT CORNER for some time yet.... or Sawyer saw it and had one of the men MOVE IT.... or ???

There are too many mentions of THAT CORNER for it to take so long for ANYONE to reach there... IMO.

Looked like there were more police arresting Oswald at the theater than looking for the rifle in the TSBD.... or being concerned that an ARMED ASSASSIN was laying in wait within the TSBD...

DJ

I
f you not making a issue of it why did you highlight it? There is no evidence from the quote the witness indicated which floor or window and if so which. As you yourself have indicated a few witnesses identified differing floors, this one even identified the wrong type of gun, witness make mistakes. You do realize they were searching a warehouse full of books and boxes? Was there primary objective finding evidence or a suspect? Please post the excerpt of Truly's testimoney you find so damning.

Are you willing to move beyond Just Asking Questions? Where do you think the weapon was found? If not initially on the 6
th
floor what was the point of planting it in the wrong location? How many rifles do you think were found? Where and When? If more than one what was the point of the bizarre switcharoo? Do you think any of them were the, or one of the murder weapons? What was the point of the supposed delay?

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Hi jim thanks for your reply ...in regards to the rifle that oswald supposedly ordered i believe under a hidell I had read somewhere that the rifle found had matched the one "ordered". Do you where i can confirm that the rifles did not match ...thanks again

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Lee,

From memory the very first reports concerning the rifle claimed it was a British Enfield. Two networks were broadcasting this around 2pm that afternoon.

For me, the Enfield reports provided incredible leverage against Frazier once the police caught hold of him.

Nancy Perrin Rich told the Warren Commission that the gun running meetings she attended with Jack Ruby involved Enfields.

Steve Thomas

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Hi jim thanks for your reply ...in regards to the rifle that oswald supposedly ordered i believe under a hidell I had read somewhere that the rifle found had matched the one "ordered". Do you where i can confirm that the rifles did not match ...thanks again

The rifle ordered was a C20-T750 - which, as listed in the FEB issue of the magazine - was the M91/38 TS... they simply wrote 5.5lbs instead of 6.5 lbs but all the other descriptions of the rifle matches the TS...

92.7cms = 36.5 inches. In APRIL 1063, Kleins replaces the TS with the FC in their ads for C20-T750....

An interesting question remains... the C20-T750 was on ad from Aubust 1962 thru Feb 1963 as a 36" TS. Since Kleins NEVER rec'd the TS rifles (the order they cancelled)

WHAT ON EARTH were they shipping to customers prior to Feb 63 (Hidell's order) when a C20-T750 order came in?

And why do we not see a single witness in the entire country, who said they ordered the C20-T750 but got the heavier FC rifle instead - the SAME RIFLE as Oswald... you'd think that would be important...

a pattern of Kleins shipping a replacement rifle...

Hope this helps clarify the situation a little

DJ

Riflesideslingversusrifleordered.jpg

Kleins-rifletypesforCarcano.jpg

Rifle-BYversusNARA.jpg

Kleinsrifleorderformandenvelope.jpg

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The rifle ordered was a C20-T750 - which, as listed in the FEB issue of the magazine - was the M91/38 TS... they simply wrote 5.5lbs instead of 6.5 lbs but all the other descriptions of the rifle matches the TS...

92.7cms = 36.5 inches. In APRIL 1063, Kleins replaces the TS with the FC in their ads for C20-T750....

An interesting question remains... the C20-T750 was on ad from Aubust 1962 thru Feb 1963 as a 36" TS. Since Kleins NEVER rec'd the TS rifles (the order they cancelled)

It was my understanding they simply ran out of the shorter rifles not that they never had them. Ozzie seems to have ordered just around the time they ran out. And I don't think many people would complain about receiving a $20 product instead of a $ 13 one.

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Lee,

From memory the very first reports concerning the rifle claimed it was a British Enfield. Two networks were broadcasting this around 2pm that afternoon.

For me, the Enfield reports provided incredible leverage against Frazier once the police caught hold of him.

Nancy Perrin Rich told the Warren Commission that the gun running meetings she attended with Jack Ruby involved Enfields.

Steve Thomas

Good to Steve still posting!

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