Jump to content
The Education Forum

How many rifles were found on the 6th floor?


Recommended Posts

Posted this before....

Here are the VC #'s assigned to the seriel numbers from the same page as the C2766 packing slip. Does it not seem prudent that we have the order copies from these other rifles to see what was ordered and what was shipped?

AK9305 has an earlier VC# than C2766... It might have been shipped PRIOR to C2766... Wonder what was ordered?

Kleinsseielnumberandvclist-WH_Vol21_0362b.gif

Kleinscarton3376withVCnumbers.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 126
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Dave you still haven't told us why Klein's would repeatedly advertise an item they didn't have and hadn't ordered.

There is no proof one way or ther other Len... I am saying they DID have 36" rifles and the gunsmith DID mount scopes on 36" rifles as he said he did and that Kleins DID sell C20-T750 as a scoped 36" rifle, the M91 TS.... and you have nothing to post or claim they didn't.

I'm saying that if the FBI printed any of the orders for C20-T750 from the microfilm we would have seen that not a single of the other 99 rifles on those packing slips would have been shipped from as early as August 1962.

I'm trying to tell you that the Kleins documentation is all full of SH!T... and was created by Waldman and the FBI to serve the singular purpose of placeing C2766 into Hidell's hands..

Take a close look at the different type faces on the Kleins order form with C2766 on it... the "A. Hidell" typing does not match the rest of the order... in fact it appears that the address block and Waldman's handwritting had nothing to do with the originally prepared order for a C20-T750 rifle...

Finally... do you have anything that shows the $1.50 shipping charge getting to the shipper and being deposited? Businesses, even in 1963, kept records of sales for tax purposes.

If this was sent Parcel Post, for $1.50... just produce the records that shows the item picked up and the shipping charges rec'd from PP. (You will have the same problem with Railways receipt of the shipping charges for the revolver as well... another set of BS documents framing Oswald)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Maegher, rifle, Kleins...

Footnote 4,ch.2,page 48:

The Commission asserts that the rifle was ordered on a coupon

cut from a full-page advertisement by Klein's Sporting Goods Co. in

the February 1963 issue of The American Rifleman magazine (WR 119),

but the actual advertisement (which is not included in the Commis-

sion's Exhibits) offers a 36-inch Carcano rifle weighing 5-1/2

lbs. with catalogue number C20-T750. The same catalogue number

without the "T" identifies the 40.2 inch Carcano shown in Klein's

full page ad in the November 1963 Field and Stream (Holmes Exhibit

No.2). Thus the rifle ordered by "Hidell" does not correspond with

the longer, heavier rifle found in the Book Depository. The

Commission never mentions this descrepancy, which apparently was

overlooked or disreguarded. It is possible that Klein's made an

error in filling the order, but can we merely assume that?

Bob Druwing

http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?

az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=57829&mesg_id=57829&page=

Edited by Bernice Moore
Link to post
Share on other sites

Back to the original question...in the documentary Evidence of Revision (part 1), there is some rare footage that I had never seen before of some cops in the TSBD picking up a scoped rifle bub the strap to examine it. And in the same camera shot you can clearly see a second rifle leaned against a box next to them.

"Evidence of Revision (part 1)" is actually divided into 10 parts each just over 10 min long, can you tell us where exactly this supposedly appears?

Edited by Len Colby
Link to post
Share on other sites

Eric Norden's The Death of a President was one of the very best of the early essays. What follows is an excerpt of Norden's article that

appeared in the January 1964 issue of The Minority of One.

Even on such a basic question as the type of gun used to kill the President, there is no unanimity of press or police opinion. First reports from the scene quoted police as describing the murder weapon as a German Mauser. Dallas Police Captain Patrick Gannaway reported on the day of the assassination that a Mauser rifle was found on a fifth floor landing of the Texas Textbook Depository, the building from which Kennedy was believed shot. Ed Wallace of the N.Y. World-Telegram & Sun reported a day later that “the rifle which killed the President was a 7.65mm. Mauser, a military weapon made in Germany long before World War Two, first produced in 1891, and made obsolete by other Mauser models adopted in 1895 and 1909.” According to Wallace, “the older Mauser was a highly accurate military weapon, and the rifle used yesterday may have been chosen because it had passed through many hands and tracing ownership would be made more difficult than weapons of later manufacture…” (N.Y. World-Telegram & Sun, Nov. 23, 1963.) A United Press International dispatch dated November 23 was equally unequivocal on the make and caliber of the murder weapon. “Police also found the imported rifle with the telescopic sight which fired the fatal bullet into Kennedy’s brain…The 7.65 (roughly 30-caliber) bolt action Mauser German army rifle with four-power sniperscope was found tucked among books.” On November 24, the New York Post referred to the assassination weapon as “the high-power 7.65 Mauser rifle which fired two 2½-inch long bullets into the Chief Executive…”

Initial reports from Dallas appeared unanimous as to the type of rifle used in the assassination. But within two days of the first announcement by Dallas police that the rifle used to kill the President and left behind in the Textbook Depository was a German Mauser, the story abruptly changed. Dallas authorities began referring to the murder weapon as an Italian Mannlicher-Carcano. Captain Will Fritz, head of the Dallas police homicide bureau, said the rifle was Italian and “of an unusual, undetermined caliber.” (N.Y. Times, November 23, 1963.) Was the discrepancy a result of the near-panic that swept over police and press alike within the first frantic hours of the President’s death? Or could it be that a gun had to be supplied which could be readily traced to Oswald? The New York Herald-Tribune reported on November 24, 1963 that “it was Mrs. Oswald who told police early yesterday that her husband owned a rifle that was the same as the Italian 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano used to shoot the President.” The New York Times reported on November 25 that “the bullets were fired by a 6.5 mm. Italian made Mannlicher-Carcano rifle…the rifle was traced to Oswald.” Was the fact that Oswald owned an Italian rifle the reason why the first, minutely-detailed descriptions of the weapon as a German Mauser were dropped, and the weapon characterized henceforth as a Mannlicher-Carcano?

Even if we accept the murder weapon as a Mannlicher-Carcano, another question arises. How could the gun in question, a Model 1938, 6.5-mm. bolt action rifle, be operated quickly enough to fire three shots into the President’s car within five seconds? The rapidity of the shots led most observers at the scene of the assassination to assume that an automatic weapon had been used. A Mannlicher-Carcano must be laboriously loaded with one shell at a time into the chamber before firing, unless a charger, or clip, is first loaded with six cartridges and then inserted into the action of the rifle, thus permitting more rapid firing. There is no indication from Dallas authorities that the alleged murder weapon was equipped with such a charger, in which case it would have been impossible for the assassin to snap off three shots at the President and Governor Connally in such rapid succession. While there has been little speculation on this problem in the United States, the European press openly doubts that a Mannlicher-Carcano could have been used as the assassination weapon. The Italian newspaper Corriere Lombardo of Milan wrote on November 26 that if the Model 38 Mannlicher-Carcano were used and that if more than one shot were fired “there must have been a second attacker.” In France, Paris Jour declared flatly that a non-automatic rifle could not have been used to pump two bullets into the President and one into Texas Governor John B. Connally within a matter of seconds. In Vienna, Hubert Hammerer, the Olympics champion shot, stated that the initial shot could have come from a bolt-action weapon, but according to a Reuters dispatch, he did not believe that one man could have fired three shots in a few seconds with the weapon used. There is thus considerable doubt that the weapon held by the Dallas police was, or even could have been, the weapon used to assassinate President Kennedy.

http://karws.gso.uri...ent-Norden.html

Link to post
Share on other sites

You're still evading my question Dave. Klein's offered the 40" model in ads for several months but you contend they never had them in stock. Once you address this we can move on to the rest.

Klein's offered a 36" model... C20-T750 M91 TS for sale with a scope mounted... only YOU are talking about a 40" FC model which they switched to in April 63.

Please follow Len.... Starting in August 1962 Kleins advertiased a 36" M91TS rifle with scope as C20-T750....

Hidell ordered C20-T750 from the Feb issue...

YOU are saying Kleins shipped him C2766

I am saying they didn't... not only didn't they but I AM ASKING YOU... what rifles they shipped to customers who ordered C20-T750 between Aug 62 and Feb 63....

YOU are saying it was a 40" model like C2766...

Prove it.

All the evidence we have points to Kleins ONLY mounting a scope on the TS 36" model and selling it as a set.

IF the FBI printed any other order from the microfilm with either C20-T750 ordered, or one of the other 99 rifles sent with the C2766 packing slips it would be supporting evidence that Kleins was indeed sending a 40" FC rilfe for these orders....

BUT THE FBI DID NOT PRINT ANY OTHER ORDERS... and the microfilm is now gone.

Not a single person in the entire country comes forward stating THEY TOO rec'd a 40" FC rifle for the C20-T750 they ordered....

Since the ONLY EXAMPLE of Kleins WRITING a 40" FC seriel # on an order for C20-T750 is Hidell's AND it is written in pencil AND the Hidell address line does not match the rest of the order...

ALL I AM ASKING YOU is why should we believe this was PRACTICE rather than the EXCEPTION and that Kleins' NEVER SHIPPED a 40"FC rifle for these orders....

That the Kleins order form WAS CREATED AFTER THE FACT when the FBI chose to print one and only one order from Kleins.

Follow?

Edited by David Josephs
Link to post
Share on other sites

and the second point that you and everyone else seems to run from...

Why would Boone and Weitzman SPECIFICALLY STATE a 7.65mm caliber in a legal document, an AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT... if they were only guessing?

Why would Weitzman sign this document ON THE 23rd, AFTER Day had already identified the rifle, after Drain had already TAKEN the rifle and everyone in the world knew it was a 6.5mm Made in Italy (btw, Day NEVER says its a Mannlicher Carcano... ever.

Why would a Deputy Sheriff sign his name to an erroneous AFFIDAVIT if he was not sure of what he saw? Unless that was what he saw

post-1587-0-92600100-1363455698_thumb.jpg

Edited by David Josephs
Link to post
Share on other sites

and finally... read Roy Truly's testimony regarding begin taken to Fritz by Lumpkin... WHEN this occurs and what he knows about the rifle and the location it was found...

According ot him the rifle was found 30 minutes BEFORE the official 1:22 time....

but you know all that right Len?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Dave you still haven't told us why Klein's would repeatedly advertise an item they didn't have and hadn't ordered.

There is no proof one way or ther other Len... I am saying they DID have 36" rifles and the gunsmith DID mount scopes on 36" rifles as he said he did and that Kleins DID sell C20-T750 as a scoped 36" rifle, the M91 TS.... and you have nothing to post or claim they didn't.

[...]

If this was sent Parcel Post, for $1.50... just produce the records that shows the item picked up and the shipping charges rec'd from PP. (You will have the same problem with Railways receipt of the shipping charges for the revolver as well... another set of BS documents framing Oswald)

For now I want to focus just on this one specific issue, one which you keep refusing to address, Klein's offered the longer MC for several months during the period you claim they did not have it in stock or even on order. Why would they do such a thing? Look at the ad Bernice posted, it shows both.

Edited by Len Colby
Link to post
Share on other sites

Belzer is a better actor than he is a researcher and he isn't a very good actor. I'm hardly an expert but I've not seen solid evidence more than one rifle as found. It seems some cops got confused about the make of the gun. This doesn't even make sense. Why would the plotters plant more than one weapon?

Truly stated multiple rifles were in *fact* inside the TSBD just days before the 11/22/63 assassination.

Edited by David G. Healy
Link to post
Share on other sites

Belzer is a better actor than he is a researcher and he isn't a very good actor. I'm hardly an expert but I've not seen solid evidence more than one rifle as found. It seems some cops got confused about the make of the gun. This doesn't even make sense. Why would the plotters plant more than one weapon?

Truly stated multiple rifles were in *fact* inside the TSBD just days before the 11/22/63 assassination.

Why did Roy Truly bring a rifle to work?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7214

b

Link to post
Share on other sites

Belzer is a better actor than he is a researcher and he isn't a very good actor. I'm hardly an expert but I've not seen solid evidence more than one rifle as found. It seems some cops got confused about the make of the gun. This doesn't even make sense. Why would the plotters plant more than one weapon?

Truly stated multiple rifles were in *fact* inside the TSBD just days before the 11/22/63 assassination.

Why did Roy Truly bring a rifle to work?

http://educationforu...?showtopic=7214

b

they (the rifles) were in his office, whether HE, Truly brought any or all of them to work, I don't know. They were there in his office none-the-less. A day or so prior to the assassination!

Edited by David G. Healy
Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...