How many rifles were found on the 6th floor?

[David Josephs]

That is all good stuff, David.

But the witness I heard of is from earlier in the day.

I look forward to hearing more about that... thanks...

[John Dolva]

I appreciate what you are saying. re The BYP's : I have the opinion that they are genuine. This is from my own research efforts.

What their purpose is, I don't know.

I -suspect- that they are part of an attack on the left, the USCPU, the SWP and Cuba, iow attacks on the enemies of US imperialism as percieved by people at this time in question.

I cannot explain discrepancies in testimonies. I've got my focus. It is not directed at explaining these particular matters. I believe a comprehensive amalgamation of data known can, in the process, do so.

[Thomas Graves]

Oh yes, I do trust my eyes. The two photos are of different quality and the hands are not the same size. Scale down the top one to match the tip of the pinkie and the width of the hand. You'll still see very different quality of pics but a lot of the 'argument' becomes in doubt, hence not the stronly supportive evidence you think it is.

John,

Not to mention the perspective problem caused by the photographer being below Oswald in the "Russian train" photo. This put the palm of Oswald's hand closer to the camera than his fingers, thereby making his fingers look shorter than they actually were.

--Tommy

I'm bumping this in an attempt to encourage David Josephs into finally revealing to us specifically why he thinks the hands in the photographs are so "clearly different."

To me all the hands look sufficiently similar to possibly be from the same person, i.e. LHO.

--Tommy

Edited March 27, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[David Josephs]

I appreciate what you are saying. re The BYP's : I have the opinion that they are genuine. This is from my own research efforts.

What their purpose is, I don't know.

I -suspect- that they are part of an attack on the left, the USCPU, the SWP and Cuba, iow attacks on the enemies of US imperialism as percieved by people at this time in question.

I cannot explain discrepancies in testimonies. I've got my focus. It is not directed at explaining these particular matters. I believe a comprehensive amalgamation of data known can, in the process, do so.

And I can appreciate "focus"... mine has been to take apart the process that gets the rifle from Italy to the 6th floor... and it simply doesn't add up.

One of the greatest oversights with regards to the rifle is the acceptance of the FBI's word that what was copied from the microfilm for HIDELL's order did NOT include C2766/VC836 which was written in after the fact...

and that Kleins was NOT shipping the larger model for the Item # referring to the scoped 36" rifle...

While looking at this microfilm... any other C20-T750 order that was shipped a 40" FC rifle instead would be DIRECT EVIDENCE that what they said was occurring, did occur. Not only did they not take an image of any other order, but the microfilm disappears from its holder... I spoke with Armstrong who went to the archives and specifically asked for a reader and that film in the early 90's... he was told the film was gone.

I think we both agree that taking the FBI's word for it when the actual evidence was available to them and NOT USED... is simply a bit too much to overlook. If he never rec'd the rifle - and there is little if ANY evidence

that he did... whether the BYP is real or not is again, moot. This is a rifle that was supposedly buried in the ground after Walker... and the man without a single cleaning supply or box of ammo is supposedly bringing thie dissassembled, "well-oiled" rifle with a partial clip to the TSBD.

From start to finish, Oswald's weapons cannot be linked to him without some magic.

Finally, you may have seen this image of mine - I conceed that the BYP rifle is not clear and sharp... yet these are not micro-details of difference... these are but four glaringly obvious differences in the rifles... 5 if you seperate #1 into both the ring and the metal band.

[John Dolva]

Great.

Is that a photo ( top) of 'the' carcano or a carcano?

Thomas Purvis (on the forum) at one time did a very comprehensive, but long, detailing of the carcano and its variants. Add to that it's historically a variant in itself in parts of the mauser which again has many variants.

edit add One important difference I can see is that the two rifles are presented differently rotation wise.

Edited March 27, 2013 by John Dolva

[David Josephs]

[...]

These are his hands from the day of arrest and from the BYP.... regardless of photogrammetry.. the hands simply do not match. (emphasis added by T. Graves)

[...]

Dear Mr. Josephs,

Please elaborate.

Thank you,

--Tommy

Thomas... let's try something first. Do you see that there are four different color circles below? Red, Green, Blue and Yellow?

There are similarities to the circles, but they are clearly not the same.

In the photo of his hands... the BYP fingers are FAT, as opposed to slender in the arrest photo.... in fact, slender in every photo of Oswald's hands EXCEPT the one in Japan which hardly looks like Oswald to begin with...

Thomas.. I respect you personal opinion on this... If you don't see how differnt the hands are, I'm not here to convince you... just to present what I believe to be ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE that the BYP were created.

Whan and if you can prove Oswald ever purchased and rec'd and had that rifle in his possession, the BYP become that much more possible... but you can't.

Same goes for the revolver... ordered in January, shipped on the same day as the rifle yet also, NEVER picked up or delivered...

Finally, maybe explain how Michael sees the photo Friday night, and Fritz asks Oswald about it Sat morning, three hours before it is even officially "found"... as yet another part of the growing stack of evidence that makes the BYP impossible to begin with... and then there's ole reliable, Marina.

Please stop trying to make this about his hands... the hands being different is only one small part of MANY MANY reasons the BYPs are not possible.

Thanks

[David Josephs]

Great.

Is that a photo ( top) of 'the' carcano or a carcano?

Thomas Purvis (on the forum) at one time did a very comprehensive, but long, detailing of the carcano and its variants. Add to that it's historically a variant in itself in parts of the mauser which again has many variants.

edit add One important difference I can see is that the two rifles are presented differently rotation wise.

these are THE carcanos... the top is the NARA photo, the bottom you know...

and yes, there is a slight difference in the rotation...

Can you tell me where #3 appears on the BYP? Can you tell me why the NARA image does not have the round silver circle #4?

Can you explain why every single image of the carcano shows a bottom mount sling ring EXCEPT for the rifle in evidence?

Will you ever incorporate the rest of the evidence in considering the authenticity of the BYP...

I'd like to know what you feel is the most compelling evidence in SUPPORT of the 3 BYPs being genuine

DJ

[Thomas Graves]

Not wanting to derail Edwin Ortiz's thread regarding the number of rifles found on the sixth floor, my response to Mr. Josephs has been moved to Len Colby's new thread-- "David Josephs' LHO 'Hands From The Day Of Arrest And From The BYP... Simply Do Not Match.' "

--Tommy

Edited March 27, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

Warren Caster was the person who brought two rifles into the TSBD on Wednesday November 20.

One was a .22 that he said he'd bought for his son. The other was a Mauser. Two other employees handled the weapons; Roy Truly and William Shelley.

Therefore, one can only imagine the colour of Truly's and Shelley's underwear once the rifle was ID'd as a Mauser seeing as how their fingerprints were all over one that was in the building only a couple of days before. In fact, if you go and read Truly's WC testimony from his two separate appearances you will see that Truly thought the rifle was found much earlier than the official timeline says it was found. He believes it was found about 20 minutes after the assassination.

Remember it was Truly and Shelley who quickly got the ball rolling on Oswald being missing. Truly, once he had returned downstairs with Baker, says he immediately found out that Oswald was missing from Shelley and rang over to the other warehouse to the admin offices to get Oswald's address.

Also to note is this: there were reports of three different models of rifle being the murder weapon.

The first was a British Enfield. This type of rifle linked to Buell Wesley Frazier.

The second was a German Mauser. This type of rifle linked to Caster, Truly and Shelley.

The third was the Mannlicher Carcano. This linked back to Alex Hidell that linked back to Lee Oswald who conveniently, and stupidly, had a card in one of his many wallets with his face and the name Hidell.

If it was a 6.5mm MC rifle that was stamped Made in Italy then why did WBAP broadcast that "Crime Lt. J.C. Day just came out of that building. Reported British 303 rifle with telescopic lens."

http://www.maryferre...728&relPageId=4

bump

[Thomas Graves]

I'd put Yates up against Bledsoe/Whaley any time...

Dear David,

Really? You would?

Why?

Sincerely,

--Tommy

Edited March 27, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

I'd put Yates up against Bledsoe/Whaley any time...

Dear David,

Really? You would?

Why?

Sincerely,

--Tommy

I'd prefer not to have this descend into a slanging match.

I simply cannot understand the faith that is placed on the Yates story given the evidence. I have explained that I'm not going to deal with the particular individual directly because he brings out the worst side of my character but I am interested in any evidence that counteracts what is available and written into the record.

I am not convinced that clinging to the Yates story and claiming it as factual does anything positive for this community because the evidence suggests the opposite of what is being claimed. If there is more to the story, and I am aware of later snippets of an interview with Dororthy Yates but believe they do not counteract my conclusion, then I genuinly want to hear it.

It doesn't matter to me whether it is David Von Pein spreading unsupportable views or a member critical of the official story. If it's unsupportable then it's unsupportable. The difference between this situation and situations that occur here where tentative ideas or proposals are posted and debated, is the fact that the Yates hitch hiker story seems to accepted as gospel and any criticism of it is met by stoney silence. Almost as if I've turned against my own.

Let's deal with the issue objectively and constructively...

Lee,

I agree with you that factual support-ability is what it's all about, whether it's coming from a "lone nutter" or a "conspiracy theorist." Although I'm a CTer myself, I'm probably harder on my fellow CTers that I am on Lone Nutters. It's a thankless, dirty job, but someone's gotta try to help us be as factual and accurate as possible. IMHO, the best researchers are those who can not only incorporate "the facts" into their theory, but are also able to deal with, or at least acknowledge, any and all "inconvenient" accompanying facts, and not just sweep them under the rug or subtly change them.

FWIW, I used to believe the Yates story, although I did see potential problems with him and it. Thank you for confirming my doubts about his (possible) fantasies and the questionable timing of the telling his story to the authorities.

--Tommy

Edited March 28, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Don Jeffries]

I don't understand why so many believers in conspiracy are now willing to accept the backyard photos as legitimate. Jack White proved conclusively, at least to me, that these photos are obviously faked. Look at Oswald's posture- does anyone, can anyone, stand that way without falling over? the shadows, size of head, etc., not to mention David's new study of the hands, indicates to me that they were crude forgeries constructed as a part of framing Oswald.

And as I've asked before, if Oswald truly posed for these photos, what was his motivation? To have it documented that he was a commie gun nut? Wouldn't most wives also question such poses? Again, it just seems so obvious to me. I'm not a photo expert by any means, but imho any novice can determine these are not legitimate pictures.

As for the rifle found on the sixth floor, legally speaking it was a German Mauser. Two individuals- Boone and Weitzman- both signed sworn affidavits to this effect. To believe they were each identically mistaken is something I'm not willing to do, especialy in light of how many other witnesses we've been asked to believe were also "mistaken" about evidence that always tended to point away from Oswald and towards conspiracy. And as Mark Lane told the Warren Commission, the words "Made in Italy" were clearly stamped on the Carcano. Even if we diminish any supposed expertise Weitzman had about guns, would both officers have been likely to identify a gun stamped as being from Italy as a German Mauser?

The gun found on the sixth floor was still being described as a Mauser by Fritz late on Friday night. With the Enfield reports, and the report of a rifle being found on the roof, there is serious doubt that the weapon discovered by Boone and Weitzman was the Carcano allegedly (and quite dubiously) tied to Oswald.

[Thomas Graves]

I don't understand why so many believers in conspiracy are now willing to accept the backyard photos as legitimate. Jack White proved conclusively, at least to me, that these photos are obviously faked. Look at Oswald's posture- does anyone, can anyone, stand that way without falling over? the shadows, size of head, etc., not to mention David's new study of the hands, indicates to me that they were crude forgeries constructed as a part of framing Oswald.

And as I've asked before, if Oswald truly posed for these photos, what was his motivation? To have it documented that he was a commie gun nut? Wouldn't most wives also question such poses? Again, it just seems so obvious to me. I'm not a photo expert by any means, but imho any novice can determine these are not legitimate pictures.

As for the rifle found on the sixth floor, legally speaking it was a German Mauser. Two individuals- Boone and Weitzman- both signed sworn affidavits to this effect. To believe they were each identically mistaken is something I'm not willing to do, especialy in light of how many other witnesses we've been asked to believe were also "mistaken" about evidence that always tended to point away from Oswald and towards conspiracy. And as Mark Lane told the Warren Commission, the words "Made in Italy" were clearly stamped on the Carcano. Even if we diminish any supposed expertise Weitzman had about guns, would both officers have been likely to identify a gun stamped as being from Italy as a German Mauser?

The gun found on the sixth floor was still being described as a Mauser by Fritz late on Friday night. With the Enfield reports, and the report of a rifle being found on the roof, there is serious doubt that the weapon discovered by Boone and Weitzman was the Carcano allegedly (and quite dubiously) tied to Oswald.

Dear Mr. Jeffries,

David's new study of the hands?

You've got to be kidding.

--Tommy

[Don Jeffries]

Okay, Tommy- David's comparison of the hands? Is that better?

[Len Colby]

I don't understand why so many believers in conspiracy are now willing to accept the backyard photos as legitimate. Jack White proved conclusively, at least to me, that these photos are obviously faked. Look at Oswald's posture- does anyone, can anyone, stand that way without falling over? the shadows, size of head, etc., not to mention David's new study of the hands, indicates to me that they were crude forgeries constructed as a part of framing Oswald.

And as I've asked before, if Oswald truly posed for these photos, what was his motivation? To have it documented that he was a commie gun nut? Wouldn't most wives also question such poses? Again, it just seems so obvious to me. I'm not a photo expert by any means, but imho any novice can determine these are not legitimate pictures.

As for the rifle found on the sixth floor, legally speaking it was a German Mauser. Two individuals- Boone and Weitzman- both signed sworn affidavits to this effect. To believe they were each identically mistaken is something I'm not willing to do, especialy in light of how many other witnesses we've been asked to believe were also "mistaken" about evidence that always tended to point away from Oswald and towards conspiracy. And as Mark Lane told the Warren Commission, the words "Made in Italy" were clearly stamped on the Carcano. Even if we diminish any supposed expertise Weitzman had about guns, would both officers have been likely to identify a gun stamped as being from Italy as a German Mauser?

The gun found on the sixth floor was still being described as a Mauser by Fritz late on Friday night. With the Enfield reports, and the report of a rifle being found on the roof, there is serious doubt that the weapon discovered by Boone and Weitzman was the Carcano allegedly (and quite dubiously) tied to Oswald.

Why would the plotters plant more than one rifle?