Allen Dulles: I think we'd better not get in to that ehhh, area you know!

[Gary Murr]

Jim DiEugenio, on February 21: "Thanks for that Gary. If I recall, weren't these guys there for like 48 hours total?"

Hi Jim:

You are basically correct. The decision for some Commission members to visit Dealey Plaza had been bandied about for quite some time, beginning very early as a topic of brief discussion in some of their closed door executive sessions of late December 1963 and early in 1964. I go into this in great detail in my forthcoming work, but regarding this specific trip; the plan had originally called for McCloy, J. Lee Rankin and SS Inspector and Warren Commission liason, Thomas Kelley, to arrive in Dallas together on Thursday, May 7, 1964, landing at Love Field, at 6:45 p.m., CST on board Braniff flight #9 out of Washington, D.C. In a memorandum dated May 5, 1964, SS Chief James J. Rowley also indicated to SS SAIC of the Dallas FO,. Forrest Sorrels, the possibility that Commission members Allen Dulles and John Sherman Cooper might also travel with the aforementioned threesome but as it turns out this was not the case. In truth the Braniff flight to Dallas was taken by Cooper, McCloy, and Thomas Kelley. They were, in turn, accompanied on this flight by FBI Inspector James Malley and Warren Commission staff member, David Belin, who was chosen to take the place of Commission General Counsel, J. Lee Rankin. I feel that surviving documentation clearly indicates that there were specific reasons why Belin was chosen to replace Rankin, but I won't get into that here at this moment in time. Allen Dulles threw a slight monkey-wrench into Belin's pre-planned itinerary for the weekend of May 8 - 9 because he did not arrive in Dallas until the following day, Friday, May 8, getting into Love Field at 1:00 p.m. in the afternoon. As surviving WBAP film footage clearly indicates, this entourage was accompanied by a number of other individuals during their various weekend trips to a variety of places. Included in this group with Belin et al were members of the Dallas Police Department, DA Henry Wade's office and most importantly SS SA James J. Howlett. Again, the intent is not to be vague herein, but I go into all of this in great detail in the first chapter of the second volume of my Connally trilogy. This group drove the entire length of the November 22nd motorcade, visited the site of the Tippit slaying, the Texas Theatre, the Texas School Book Depository, the police department basement/garage area, the Oswald's Neely Street apartment, etc. etc. over a roughly two day span. On Friday evening, May 8, at approximately 7:30 p.m. all parties were invited to a dinner at the Chapparal Club in the Southland Center adjacent to the Sheraton-Dallas Hotel. Their host for the evening was Dean Storey accompanied by a number of "civic leaders" from the Dallas-Fort Worth area. The three Commission members did attend this dinner, but Belin, Kelley and Malley declined and remained in their respective hotel rooms.

Of the individuals involved in this particular trip to Dallas, all had returned to Washington by Monday, May 10, 1964 - with the exception of John McCloy. According to memoranda constructed by David Belin and Thomas Kelley, after the various members had walked the grounds of Dealey Plaza on the morning of May 9, 1964, an event that was captured on film footage shot by a cameraman from WBAP TV, John McCloy excused himself early, leaving Dallas by private jet at approximately 11:00 a.m., with his destination being Mexico.

And finally, you are correct in your assessment of the importance of Gerald McKnight's writing on the theoretical stenographer's record of the Commission's closed door executive session of September, 1964, wherein Richard Russell's thoughts on the single bullet theory were to be put on the record. I actually was at NARA II in March of 1999 when Harold Weisberg asked me to find this document and copy it for him. I did so and upon bringing it to Harold at his home in Frederick, Maryland, I met Gerald McKnight. I believe that David Wrone may also have been present at that time, though I am not 100% sure of this at this time. I can, however, still recall the look on Harold's face when he saw what I had copied. In essence it was documented proof of something that he and Gerald had apparently been suspicious of for quite some time.

FWIW

Gary Murr

[Karl Kinaski]

Karl,

You're misrepresenting Cooper's words in that video. He was about to say something akin to what Dulles says, but Cooper was cut off. Cooper didn't merely say: "I don't believe it" -- he added something AFTER "I don't believe...", which (if allowed to continue) would likely have been something like this: "I don't believe we should get into that subject here" -- which is precisely what Dulles does say.

Do you really think Cooper was involved in some kind of grandiose cover-up operation, and then he just blurted out "I don't believe it" to a reporter with a live microphone?

Or is Cooper one of the "good guys" on the Commission (who wasn't "in" on the cover-up operation)? And Dick Russell too?

Cooper says:I DON't BELIEVE IT....rather to himself, while Dulles says: I THINK, WE BETTER NOT GET... (see topic title)...with emphasis on the word "I"...those two statements are NOT connected, as you suggest. Cooper gives a direcct answer, ( at 59seconds/second video), Dulles is avoiding the answer with his words...I am glad, that Coopers doubts are on video, for now and forever...

BTW - Another proof, that THE Warren Commission never exists. The lone-gunman doubters where:

Hale Boggs

Senator Russell

Senator Cooper

Whenever you defend THE Warren Commission, you must tell me: which men do you mean? The lone-gunman party, or the party of doubters?

KK

Edited February 21, 2013 by Karl Kinaski

[Gary Murr]

I would like to take this opportunity to thank James Gordon for his unsolicited words concerning my forthcoming trilogy on the wounding of John Connally. I fear he is being far too kind and I am sure that there are those in the research community that will find my work not to their liking. That is, of course, your prerogative. I hope to be able to post here on this forum, and elsewhere, further details on this writing, and another that nears completion, including details of release dates and availability very shortly.

Gary Murr

[David Von Pein]

Cooper says: I DON'T BELIEVE IT...

Listen to it again, Karl. The word you think is "IT" is very likely "THAT", and then some mumbling that is just about impossible to discern, but it sounds like the word "REPORT" comes right after "THAT" (which you claim is "IT").

Regardless of the exact verbiage, it's obvious (to me) that Cooper isn't telling the reporter that he doesn't believe that one man shot the President. Cooper, in essence, is AGREEING completely with Dulles' following remark about not wanting to "get into" the details.

So, as I said, it's mountains from molehills. Or, in this instance, half a molehill.

Edited February 21, 2013 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

BTW - Another proof, that THE Warren Commission never exists. The lone-gunman doubters where:

Hale Boggs

Senator Russell

Senator Cooper

And yet we find the signatures of each of those men on page vii of the Warren Report. Wasn't it nice of those men to sign off on a report that they really didn't believe?

[Guest Robert Morrow]

That letter by commission members just says they were submitting a report. It says absolutely nothing about whether they actually *believed* what they were submitting.

People lie all the time in official documents and especially in court if they think they can get away with it.

It reminds of several of Bill Clintons' girlfriends and even rape victim Juanita Broaddrick signing affidavits in the 1992 campaign all saying they had no relationship at all with Bill Clinton. Lying under political pressure; it happens all the time.

After LBJ and the government murdered John Kennedy, there was HUGE political pressure on so many people to go along with the cover up, the non-investigation and Warren Report lie.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Robert Morrow

[Guest Robert Morrow]

"Troika" meaning the most committed cover up artists on the Warren Commission: Allen Dulles, former CIA director and 36 year member on the executive committee of the Council on Foreign Relations, John J. McCloy - the chairman of the Council on Foreign Relations from 1953-1970 and a man tight with both the Rockefellers and the Texas oil men such as Clint Murchison (an inner circle LBJ supporter), and Gerald Ford, the FBI's man on the Warren Commission and who in 1970 Newsweek identified as the CIA's man in Congress and also a member of the Council on Foreign Relations. Ford was close to FBI, CIA & CFR.

Dulles, McCloy and Ford were all Republicans and high level CFR members and hard core cover up artists manipulating the Warren Commission.

George Herbert Walker Bush - a suspect in the JFK assassination - was also CIA, CFR leader, Texas oil and a Republican.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Robert Morrow

[Karl Kinaski]

Yep, you are right on about the CFR umbilical ties of McCloy and Dulles.

So Gary, from your summary, only three of the Commissioners visited Dallas on that excursion: McCloy, Dulles and Cooper. And they were in and out in about 48 hours.

To your knowledge, was there any other such trip they made? Or any others made? I mean i know about Warren and Ruby. But I mean one like this one in which they were supposed to actually impersonate field investigators.

May I answer?

Quote.

Sept. 6, 1964 At Russell's insistence, Russell and two other members of the Commission take testimony in Dallas, Texas from Marina Oswald, the widow of the accused assassin. Marina Oswald had previously testified before the Commission on June 11 at a session at which Russell was absent. Russell has insisted on having her testify again because he believes she has withheld vital information concerning Lee Harvey Oswald's mysterious contacts with Russian agents, Cuba, and Cuban Americans.

Sept. 7, 1964 Russell and two other Warren Commission members visit Dealey Plaza and examine the assassination site. While visiting the sixth floor room in the School Book Depository from which the assassin's shots were allegedly fired, Russell takes an unloaded rifle, leans out the window allegedly used by Oswald, and aims at the spot where JFK's limousine had been at the time of the assassination. "Oswald must have been an expert shot," he says. A photograph of Russell leaning out the window, rifle in hand, soon appears in newspapers.

Close quote

Edited February 22, 2013 by Karl Kinaski

[David Von Pein]

There were three separate trips made to Dallas by the various members of the seven-man Warren Commission panel in order to take part in just the "shell-dropping" experiments alone. (And it stands to reason that they did more than just that experiment while they were there too.)

On each of those three occasions, different members of the Commission stood on the fifth floor as a test was conducted by dropping bullet shells on the sixth floor. All seven Commission members heard the shells drop to the floor above them.

The dates of those three tests (with at least one of the seven Commission members

present each time) were:

May 9, 1964

June 7, 1964

September 6, 1964

[source: Warren Report, Page 71.]

Edited February 24, 2013 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

HAROLD NORMAN (PART 1):

When President Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas, Texas, on November 22, 1963, 25-year-old Harold Norman was located on the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building. He was situated directly underneath the sixth-floor "Sniper's Nest" window when rifle shots were being fired at JFK from that sixth-floor window.

Does anyone truly think that Norman was making up a false story when he claimed to hear a rifle's bolt being worked directly over his head?

And do conspiracy theorists also think that Norman lied when he said he heard exactly "three" shots being fired over his head?

And did he also lie when he said he heard "three" bullet shells (or "hulls") hitting the floor above him?

Harold Norman's testimony in each of the above "three shots" regards provides an additional (and, IMO, very important) layer of evidence leading toward Lee Harvey Oswald's guilt in the murder of President Kennedy (coupled with all the other ballistics, witness, fingerprint, and fiber evidence that back up LHO's guilt as well).

Because if Norman was dead wrong about everything he heard going on directly above his 5th-Floor location within the Book Depository, it would certainly be an incredible coincidence that he would be WRONG, but in such a "THREE SHOTS WERE FIRED FROM THE SIXTH FLOOR" fashion....which is a scenario that is backed up by lots of other evidence (and witnesses), besides just Mr. Norman.

And if conspiracists want to paint Norman as yet another in a series of "liars" or "Warren Commission shills" after the assassination, it only adds one more ludicrous and unproven "He Was Lying" allegation to the already silly length of such a list that has been created by some conspiracy theorists over the years since 1963.

And it's interesting to note in the Warren Report, that all seven Warren Commissioners (via three separate re-creations of bullet shells hitting the floor above Norman's position on the Depository's fifth floor) were each easily able to hear the cartridge cases hitting the floor.

"All seven of the Commissioners clearly heard the shells drop to the floor." -- Warren Report; Page 71

In addition, there's also the test that was conducted by Warren Commission counsel member David W. Belin. To quote Belin directly on this matter:

"We scheduled the testimony of Harold Norman on March 24, 1964. Before he testified, we wanted to interview him on the fifth floor of the TSBD Building and check whether these sounds [of the rifle shells hitting the floor and of the rifle's bolt being worked by the gunman] could be heard.

"We had with us the equipment necessary to make the test. A Secret Service agent with the bolt action rifle stood with Joe Ball in the southeast corner window on the sixth floor of the TSBD Building. I stayed with Harold Norman on the fifth floor directly below.

"Before giving the signal to conduct the experiment, I waited until a train passed on the nearby railroad overpass so there would be plenty of street noise. In addition, at that time, several large trucks were moving down Elm Street. I then yelled to have the test begin.

"I smiled, for I really did not expect to hear anything. Then, with remarkable clarity, I could hear the thump as a cartridge case hit the floor. There were two more thumps as the two other cartridge cases hit the floor above me.

"The Secret Service agent then worked the bolt of the rifle back and forth, and this too could be heard with clarity.

"When we re-assembled after the re-enactment, I said to my colleague, 'Joe, if I had not heard it myself, I would never have believed it'."

-- David Belin; Pages 139-140 of Belin's 1973 book "November 22, 1963: You Are The Jury"

http://You-Are-The-Jury.blogspot.com

------------------

Now, either Harold Norman was an amazing xxxx, or somebody fired three shots from just above Norman's 5th-Floor Depository position on 11/22/63 (with three shells hitting the floor too).

And Norman confirmed he did hear precisely THREE shells/("hulls") hitting the plywood floor directly above him during the shooting. He confirmed this fact in 1986 when he was being questioned about the matter by lawyer Vincent Bugliosi during the television docu-trial "On Trial: Lee Harvey Oswald".

Here is some of the verbatim testimony given by Harold Norman at that mock trial in 1986 (which can also be seen in the video presented below):

VINCENT BUGLIOSI -- "So you heard a total of three shots?"

HAROLD NORMAN -- "Yes sir."

MR. BUGLIOSI -- "Did it sound to you like a rifle was being fired directly above you?"

MR. NORMAN -- "Yes sir."

MR. BUGLIOSI -- "Was there any OTHER reason, in addition to the sound of the rifle, any other reason why you believed the shots were coming from directly above you?"

MR. NORMAN -- "Yes sir."

MR. BUGLIOSI -- "And what is that?"

MR. NORMAN -- "Because I could hear the empty hulls--that's what I call them--hit the floor; and I could hear the bolt action of the rifle being pushed back and forward."

MR. BUGLIOSI -- "You're familiar with a bolt-action rifle?"

MR. NORMAN -- "Yes sir."

MR. BUGLIOSI -- "And by 'hulls', you mean cartridge casings?"

MR. NORMAN -- "Cartridges."

MR. BUGLIOSI -- "How many did you hear falling to the floor?"

MR. NORMAN -- "Three."

MR. BUGLIOSI -- "Is the sound of that bolt action, and the ejection of the cartridge casings, and their falling to the floor something that you're going to remember for the rest of your life?"

MR. NORMAN -- "Yes sir."

MR. BUGLIOSI -- "One more question....at any time on the morning of the assassination did you see any stranger or strangers in the Book Depository Building?"

MR. NORMAN -- "No sir."

http://dvp-potpourri.blogspot.com/2010/07/harold-norman.html

--------------------------------------

Many conspiracy believers think the three shells were "planted" in the Sniper's Nest after the shooting. But Norman heard the shells dropping to the floor DURING THE SHOOTING, not several seconds AFTER the gunfire ceased.

Do some CTers think that the plotters had a guy standing in the Sniper's Nest dropping shells to the floor IN REAL TIME during the actual eight seconds when the assassination was taking place on November 22nd?

"Real Time, As-It's-Happening Shell Planting"!

Now THAT'S Patsy-Framing organization and efficiency, for damn sure!

So, if Norman's not a xxxx (and there's absolutely no reason to think he is), then three shots WERE definitely fired from that southeast corner window of the Book Depository's sixth floor. Period. Which is something that very few conspiracy theorists I've ever talked to actually believe occurred that day.

And Harold Norman's testimony, all by itself, makes conspiracy theorist Robert Groden's crazy "No Shots Were Likely Fired From The SN Window At All" theory look even more ludicrous than it already is. (And it's pretty ludicrous to begin with.)

David Von Pein

July 28, 2006

January 1, 2007

July 30, 2010

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/harold-norman-part-1.html

Edited February 24, 2013 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

HAROLD NORMAN (PART 2):

PAT SPEER SAID:

To support that three evenly-spaced shots were fired by a bolt-action rifle, he [DVP] uses Warren Commission testimony taken 4 months or more after the assassination, after the witnesses had been told by the media and their government that Oswald had acted alone. He avoids the earliest statements of the witnesses like the plague. .... This is not chaff, by any means. A competent and committed defense attorney could establish reasonable doubt on this fact alone.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

When thinking some more about witness Harold Norman and his comments made after President Kennedy's assassination, this thought struck me:

The argument about the SPACING between the gunshots that Norman heard is really kind of an irrelevant and unimportant argument.

Why?

Because regardless of the exact number of seconds that passed between the three shots, ALL THREE OF THOSE SHOTS CAME FROM THE SAME RIFLE ABOVE NORMAN'S HEAD.

And surely no conspiracy theorist wants to propose a theory that has TWO gunmen and TWO different rifles being fired from the Sniper's Nest window on the 6th Floor directly above Mr. Norman's head....do they?

Therefore, no matter what the precise spacing was between the shots, per Norman's never-wavering "I HEARD THREE SHOTS FROM ABOVE ME" account of the shooting, it HAS to mean that the ONE gunman WAS able to fire those three shots from the gunman's ONE rifle in the allotted time to get off three such shots from his bolt-action weapon.

The same argument I just made regarding Norman could also be made when it comes to many of the other Dealey Plaza witnesses, i.e., the witnesses who fall into the following category:

I HEARD EXACTLY THREE SHOTS AND ALL OF THOSE SHOTS CAME FROM THE GENERAL DIRECTION OF THE BOOK DEPOSITORY BUILDING.

That is to say: What major difference does it really make what the precise SPACING was between these three shots, which were ALL shots (per those witnesses in the category just mentioned) that VERY LIKELY CAME FROM THE VERY SAME GUN?

So, given these parameters that many witnesses DO agree on (i.e., exactly THREE shots fired and all coming from ONE rear location at or very near the Texas School Book Depository Building), the "spacing" issue is largely a moot point altogether.

David Von Pein

October 2007

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/harold-norman-part-2.html

Edited February 24, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Paul Brancato]

David - what is your response to Jim's assertion that Norman did not mention hearing the shells drop to the FBI on nov 26?

Did the WC members account for the ambient noise level that surely was present on Nov 22?

If there was a shooter above Norman who took care to build a snipers nest and hide the gun afterwards, why would he leave 3 shells in plain sight? This too convenient evidence has always bothered me, especially in light of the time it took to find and search the nest.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Fabulous find. Does anyone know the exact date Allen Dulles said that? I am sure it was sometime in 1964 when the Warren Commission went to Dallas. Probably early in spring, 1964 (a guess).

James Angleton, who literally carried the ashes of Allen Dulles at his funeral:

“Fundamentally, the founding fathers of U.S. intelligence were liars. The better you lied and the more you betrayed, the more likely you would be promoted. These people attracted and promoted each other. Outside of their duplicity, the o­nly thing they had in common was a desire for absolute power. I did things that, in looking back o­n my life, I regret. But I was part of it and I loved being in it. . . Allen Dulles, Richard Helms, Carmel Offie, and Frank Wisner were the grand masters. If you were in a room with them you were in a room full of people that you had to believe would deservedly end up in hell.” Angleton slowly sipped his tea and then said, “I guess I will see them there, soon.”

----JAMES ANGLETON, C.I.A. Counter Intelligence-Chief, 1985

Robert: Can you please provide the source for this comment by Angleton?

[Guest Robert Morrow]

Fabulous find. Does anyone know the exact date Allen Dulles said that? I am sure it was sometime in 1964 when the Warren Commission went to Dallas. Probably early in spring, 1964 (a guess).

James Angleton, who literally carried the ashes of Allen Dulles at his funeral:

“Fundamentally, the founding fathers of U.S. intelligence were liars. The better you lied and the more you betrayed, the more likely you would be promoted. These people attracted and promoted each other. Outside of their duplicity, the o­nly thing they had in common was a desire for absolute power. I did things that, in looking back o­n my life, I regret. But I was part of it and I loved being in it. . . Allen Dulles, Richard Helms, Carmel Offie, and Frank Wisner were the grand masters. If you were in a room with them you were in a room full of people that you had to believe would deservedly end up in hell.” Angleton slowly sipped his tea and then said, “I guess I will see them there, soon.”

----JAMES ANGLETON, C.I.A. Counter Intelligence-Chief, 1985

Robert: Can you please provide the source for this comment by Angleton?

Good question. I copied it off the internet which is always a dangerous thing to do. The quote may be embellished. James J. Trento’s The Secret History of the CIA, 1946-1989 – http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKtrento.htm

Jospeh Trento interview with James Angleton:

“I realize now that I have wasted my existence, my professional life…. There was no accountability and without accountability everything turned to xxxx…. Fundamentally, the founders of U.S. intelligence (the CIA) were liars. The better you lied and the more you betrayed, the more likely you would be promoted. These people attracted and promoted each other. Outside of their duplicity, the only thing they had in common was a desire for absolute power…. You had to believe (they) would deservedly end up in hell.”

OR POSSIBLY THIS IS THE "CORRECT VERSION" OF JOSEPH TRENTO INTERVIEWING JAMES ANGLETON

[Could someone look please this up in Trento's book and see if it is right or not? - Robert]

Within the confines of (Angleton’s) remarkable life were most of America’s secrets. “You know how I got to be in charge of counterintelligence? I agreed not to polygraph or require detailed background checks on Allen Dulles and 60 of his closest friends... They were afraid that their own business dealings with Hitler’s pals would come out. They were too arrogant to believe that the Russians would discover it all.... You know, the CIA got tens of thousands of brave people killed... We played with lives as if we owned them. We gave false hope. We - I - so misjudged what happened."

I asked the dying man how it all went so wrong.

With no emotion in his voice, but with his hand trembling, Angleton replied: “Fundamentally, the founding fathers of U.S. intelligence were liars. The better you lied and the more you betrayed, the more likely you would be promoted. These people attracted and promoted each other. Outside of their duplicity, the only thing they had in common was a desire for absolute power. I did things that, in looking back on my life, I regret. But I was part of it and I loved being in it... Allen Dulles, Richard Helms, Carmel Offie, and Frank Wisner were the grand masters. If you were in a room with them you were in a room full of people that you had to believe would deservedly end up in hell.” Angleton slowly sipped his tea and then said, “I guess I will see them there soon.”

Edited February 27, 2013 by Robert Morrow

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Thank you Robert.

I must get Trento's book