How Could LHO Have Damaged FPCC By His Actions In Mexico City?

[Thomas Graves]

I understand that LHO may have thought that he was sent to Mexico City in late September of 1963 to discredit the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.

So I'm wondering, how could what LHO (and/or a LHO "double") had said on the telephone or done in the Cuban and Soviet consulates have hurt the FPCC if the assassination of JFK had never even been attempted?

I've read that being a member of the Communist Party was illegal in Mexico in 1963. I've also read that LHO (or his "double") showed Silvia Duran his Communist Party membership card (and his FPCC card, etc). Was LHO hoping to be arrested in Mexico and thereby generate negative publicity for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?

Or did LHO think he was in MC for some other non FPCC - related reason, like trying to get to Cuba to assassinate Castro?

Regardless, I guess the CIA's memo to FBI which said it was thinking about doing some anti-FPCC work abroad served the purpose of making FBI agent Marvin Gheesling believe that LHO was involved with such a project, and that's why Gheesling took LHO off of the FBI's "watch list."

--Thomas

Edited February 27, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Steve Cearfoss]

Jim: "He was at least a commie symp. Maybe a commie agent." Confused, Explain, please.

[Thomas Graves]

Well Thomas, even if there was no assassination, the idea that a guy allegedly working for better relations with Cuba and criticizing US treatment of Castro to go to Mexico and allegedly meet with one or more KGB agents in order to get an in transit visa to eventually go back to Russia, I mean that is not very good from a PR point of view.

It reaffirmed what Stuckey, Butler and Bringuier were all trying to call out Oswald on during those debates. Namely, that Oswald was not at all an objective reviewer of such things. He was at least a commie symp. Maybe a commie agent.

Well, Jim, I mean if it really was LHO who was in Mexico City, how would the world have found out later about his activities there unless he had been arrested for the killing of Tippit (and charged with assassinating JFK)? I mean, if LHO hadn't been arrested in Dallas, then the FPCC wouldn't have been discredited by LHO's actions in Mexico City, would it? Unless, of course, the Cubans or The Soviets or the Mexican government or Silvia Duran had volunteered the information about "LHO"'s being, supposedly, a card-carrying commie/member of the FPCC who had spoken with Kostikov and wanted to get back to the Soviet Union via Cuba. I mean, do you think they would have done that? EDIT: Come to think of it, I suppose the Mexican Government would eventually have told the FBI, CIA, etc, and they in turn would have told given it to the press so that the FPCC would be discredited...

I wonder what LHO thought his mission was in Mexico City. He wasn't stupid, so I don't think he thought he was there to discredit the FPCC. Unless, of course, he thought it depended on his getting to Cuba (and Russia?) and getting lots of anti-FPCC publicity in the U.S. for doing so. Maybe that's why he told Kostikov and Nechiporenko "This is all going to end in tragedy for me." Maybe it dawned on him that he was being set up as a patsy when he realized he wasn't going to be allowed to go to Cuba as "promised" by his controller/controllers...

--Tommy

Edited February 28, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Patrick Block]

The question is, what reliable evidence is there, at all, that Oswald even knew about the trek to Mexico until after the assassination? There is more solid proof that he wasn't there, than he was...photos of someone else said to be Lee, recordings of someone impersonating him badly, and proof via documents-witnesses putting him back in the states at that time.

What is there- a bus stub of questionable origin?

I feel that the entire production was created to force Hoover to accept Oswald as the sole assassin, and provide everyone else the excuse not to investigate the assassination. Knocking over Hoover by making his bureau look incompetant and tying his pudgy little hands started off a domino effect- Johnson,Warren,Russell, et al. Everyone toppled over and looked away from the truth in real fear that the Soviets killed JFK using a Castro-friendly American assassin. It was the height of the Cold War, and only guy working towards ending it was now dead.

I think Mexico City was created expressly for Hoover. I suspect the plotters only real worry was that the FBI would be unleashed upon them, which would start a domino effect in the other direction- everyone investigating towards them rather than away following the FBI's lead. Hoover was naturally jealous of other intelligence organizations working in his turf. He would have glady ended the CIA if he could. He feared his beloved Bureau looking foolish above all else. By dropping Oswald, who probably had ties to the FBI that past year in New Orleans, into the FBI's lap together with details of the imaginary Mexico City trek with all it's Soviet shenanigans, the plotters created a movie quality evil-genius masterstroke to insure their own security.

FBI refuses to pursue the investigation because of the Mexico City fable, everyone falls into line.

Which way does the honest evidence tilt- in Mexico, or not?

[Steve Cearfoss]

Well Thomas, even if there was no assassination, the idea that a guy allegedly working for better relations with Cuba and criticizing US treatment of Castro to go to Mexico and allegedly meet with one or more KGB agents in order to get an in transit visa to eventually go back to Russia, I mean that is not very good from a PR point of view.

It reaffirmed what Stuckey, Butler and Bringuier were all trying to call out Oswald on during those debates. Namely, that Oswald was not at all an objective reviewer of such things. He was at least a commie symp. Maybe a commie agent.

Jim: I see now what you meant by, "He was at least a commie symp. Maybe a commie agent." The lead-in to the quoted sentence threw me off. Duh. Steve

[Thomas Graves]

Patrick, Lee:

I am all on board with the idea that Oswald very likely was not in Mexico CIty. And even if he was, I find it hard to believe he did the things the CIA said he did.

I was just addressing the question by Mr. Graves. If Oswald did go to Mexico at all, what would have been his concept in keeping with his agent provocateur status. Graves said how could that have been done if there was no assassination attempt.

Let me further qualify that, to me, this is an almost theoretical question to the extreme. Why? Because IMO, the assassination was the reason Oswald--or the imposter--was in Mexico to begin with. If that was not the reason then why did Angleton do what he did IN ADVANCE OF THE ASSASSINATION!? That is separate out Oswald's file so that no one could have all the necessary info on him before the murder. And therefore unleash a bear claw trap on the FBI, State Dept and SS the day of the assassination. Thus automatically throwing them into CYA mode, thus guaranteeing there would be no real inquiry into who Oswald was or the assassination itself.

But to answer the theoretical question Graves mapped out, was it really necessary for Oswald to think that hey somehow all this stuff would get into the news cycle soon after? I don't think so.

Also, to show how intent the planning was at the time, as I write in my book, I don't think its possible to partition Mexico CIty from the Odio incident. For the simple matter of timing. If Odio's testimony is accurate, then someone is doubling Oswald 7 weeks before the murder. Since he cannot be in two places at once. He is either at Odio's or on a bus to southern Texas.

Which is one reason why the WC had to deny the Odio incident.

Jimbo,

I thought it was a reasonable question and I asked it in an attempt to encourage discussion about Oswald's actions in Mexico City from an intelligence or counter intelligence operative's point of view. Thank you for your excellent response (this post). Yes, really.

So if, as you say, it was not necessary for LHO to think that "somehow all this stuff" (to discredit the FPCC?) "would somehow get into the news cycle," then I wonder if LHO believed he was in Mexico City to discredit the FPCC or if he though he was there for some other known-to-him reason (yes, I realize that my question is based on the questionable premise that he was in Mexico City).

Is it plausible to think that, if he was in MC, he didn't know why and was "just following orders"?

-or-

Could he have been sent there on the pretext of "testing the LI/ENVOY system" for Bill Harvey or James Jesus Angleton?

-or-

If he was in MC, and if he was there "because of" the planned upcoming assassination, did he know that? If "yes," then in my mind that opens up two distinct possibilities: 1) he was there as a bad guy who wanted to participate in the planing of the JFK assassination and the implicating of Castro, or 2) he was there as an official (or free-lance?!) "secret agent" whose mission was to penetrate the assassination conspiracy. Either way he was, as we know, manipulated into being the patsy. But his thinking that he was in MC just to go to the Soviet and Cuban embassies in order to somehow eventually discredit the FPCC doesn't make sense to me because it wouldn't have made sense to him.

Sincerely,

--Tommy

Edited March 28, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

Patrick, Lee:

I am all on board with the idea that Oswald very likely was not in Mexico CIty. And even if he was, I find it hard to believe he did the things the CIA said he did.

I was just addressing the question by Mr. Graves. If Oswald did go to Mexico at all, what would have been his concept in keeping with his agent provocateur status. Graves said how could that have been done if there was no assassination attempt.

Let me further qualify that, to me, this is an almost theoretical question to the extreme. Why? Because IMO, the assassination was the reason Oswald--or the imposter--was in Mexico to begin with. If that was not the reason then why did Angleton do what he did IN ADVANCE OF THE ASSASSINATION!? That is separate out Oswald's file so that no one could have all the necessary info on him before the murder. And therefore unleash a bear claw trap on the FBI, State Dept and SS the day of the assassination. Thus automatically throwing them into CYA mode, thus guaranteeing there would be no real inquiry into who Oswald was or the assassination itself.

But to answer the theoretical question Graves mapped out, was it really necessary for Oswald to think that hey somehow all this stuff would get into the news cycle soon after? I don't think so.

Also, to show how intent the planning was at the time, as I write in my book, I don't think its possible to partition Mexico CIty from the Odio incident. For the simple matter of timing. If Odio's testimony is accurate, then someone is doubling Oswald 7 weeks before the murder. Since he cannot be in two places at once. He is either at Odio's or on a bus to southern Texas.

Which is one reason why the WC had to deny the Odio incident.

Jimbo,

I thought it was a reasonable question and I asked it in an attempt to encourage discussion about Oswald's actions in Mexico City from an intelligence or counter intelligence operative's point of view. Thank you for your excellent response (this post). Yes, really.

So if, as you say, it was not necessary for LHO to think that "somehow all this stuff" (to discredit the FPCC?) "would somehow get into the news cycle," then I wonder if LHO believed he was in Mexico City to discredit the FPCC or if he though he was there for some other known-to-him reason (yes, I realize that my question is based on the questionable premise that he was in Mexico City).

Is it plausible to think that, if he was in MC, he didn't know why he was there and was "just following orders"?

-or-

Could he have been sent there on the pretext of "testing the LI/ENVOY system" for Bill Harvey or James Jesus Angleton?

-or-

Could he he have thought he was sent there as a counter-intelligence "dangle" directed towards a foreign intelligence agent working in the Soviet or the Cuban Embassy?

--or-

If he was in MC, and if he was there "because of" the planned upcoming assassination, did he know that? If "yes," then in my mind that opens up two distinct possibilities: 1) he was there as a bad guy who wanted to participate in the planing of the JFK assassination and the implicating of Castro, or 2) he was there as an official (or free-lance?!) "secret agent" whose mission was to penetrate the assassination conspiracy. Either way he was, as we know, manipulated into being the patsy. But his thinking that he was in MC just to go to the Soviet and Cuban embassies in order to somehow eventually discredit the FPCC doesn't make sense to me because it wouldn't have made sense to him.

Sincerely,

--Tommy

edited and bumped

Edited March 28, 2013 by Thomas Graves