New discovery concerning CE 369: Lovelady's arrow

[Robin Unger]

Quote:

No, Ralph is not "playing games" at all, but the same cannot be said of Robin Unger,

who attempts to obfuscate the proof Ralph has uncovered of the second arrow on

CE 369. Any photograph--when blown up beyond recognition--will tend to lose its

value as evidence, which is why we need to be looking at the original. I am more

and more disillusioned with the games that Burnham and Unger have been playing.

Anyone who is serious about this would want to consider the photograph, CE 369,

not a version that is blown up beyond recognition. Everyone ought to admit that is

is the case, since it is no mystery. Here is the image that everyone should study:

What the hell are you on about ?

That is your image as found in Ralphs post;

NOT MINE

http://oi47.tinypic.com/1620fgi.jpg

tinypic.com

Edited March 9, 2013 by Robin Unger

[Lindsay Anderson]

Lindsay, I believe the streak of white that momentarilyi appears which people are taking as evidence of unbuttoning is fraudulent. It's trickery. It was added because they actually forgot about the Doorman's open sprawl when they made that phony movie. They were only interested in showcasing the plaid shirt (which Lovelady did not wear). I have a bevy of doctors who say that that guy, whom we call Gorilla Man, was not Billy Lovelady; his anatomy was different.

But, could we get back on point, please? People: there's a black line that intersects Black Hole Man's forearm (and this talk about him being a woman is making me sick) and that black line has got to be something. Now, if you don't think it's part of the arrow that Lovelady drew, then tell me what you think it is. It can't be a shadow because it only occurs on CE 369 and not on any other copy of the Altgens photo. So what is it?

Thanks Ralph -

I'm not sure who's post you are replying to but it wasn't mine,

I asked 3 questions that you have not replied to and I provided an answer to your question "Now, if you don't think it's part of the arrow that Lovelady drew, then tell me what you think it is", As well as an answer, I suggested that further study of Altgens6 may be required.

Could you look at my post (no,18) again please.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Lindsay Anderson

[Robin Unger]

Clay shaw trial

Frazier Testimony

Q: Mr. Frazier, do you recall who you were with during the presidential motorcade?

A: Yes, sir, I can. When I was standing there at the top of the stairs I was standing there by a heavyset lady who worked up in our office, her name is Sara, I forget her last name, but she was standing right there beside me when we watched the motorcade.

Q: Do you recall anyone else who may have been with you?

A: Right down in front of me at the bottom of the steps my foreman Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady were standing there.

Frazier was standing behind Lovelady and Shelley

When i first joined the Lancer forum 10-years ago everybody said that the man in the suit on the steps in Altgens6 was Bill Shelley

i still believe that to be the case.

Frazier said he was standing behind Shelley and Lovelady, and near a heavy set woman named Sarah ( That would be Sarah Stanton )

Now, there is another figure standing back in the shadows behind Lovelady and Shelley who can be seen in Wiegman frames

Many of us including Sean Murphy and myself have tried to identify who this person may be over the years without any luck.

he appears to have both hands up to there face, in a stance as if to be taking a picture, or drinking from a tea cup and saucer

This person could be Frazier .?

Any person standing in this area on the steps would not have been captured in the Altgens6 photo

In couch as Baker runs towards the TSBD entrance, the same Wiegman figure still appears to be standing in the same spot ?

Click on image to view FULL SIZE

Edited March 10, 2013 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

Now as for CE - 369

It is almost impossible to find a good resolution copy on the internet.

This is the best i could do with the low resolution WC Copy

It's still not good enough to draw any solid conclusions from in my opinion, but its better than nothing.

Click on the image to view full size:

Edited March 10, 2013 by Robin Unger

[Ralph Cinque]

Lindsay, I appreciate your proffering something as an alternative to it being Lovelady's arrow. In fact, I appreciated it so much, I wrote you up on the OIC Facebook page, and I'll post it below. Hey, I'm making you famous.

Congratulations to Lindsay Anderson! Lindsay is the first contestant to come forward and proffer an alternative explanation for the black line on BH Man's forearm. Say hello to Lindsay.

http://tinypic.com/r/35i3907/6

Lindsay's idea is that the black line may be some dirt or a contaminant.

Alas Lindsay, I can't give that idea serious consideration, sorry.

To expect an idea to be taken seriously, there has to be a factual, practical, empirical basis for it. I ask the reader: How many times in your life have you seen a black line on a photograph that turned out to be dirt or a contaminant? I have been living for 62 years and have been looking at photographs for most of that time, and I have never once had that experience. Nobody I have known has ever had that experience. And I have never read or heard of any such thing happening in anybody's experience.

Furthermore, we are talking about a distinct line. How could a contaminant or a speck of dirt or dust occur in a line?

Frankly, I think you could have done better, Lindsay. I think it would have been better to suggest a hair or a piece of thread. I don't really consider those plausible either but at least they sound more plausible. At least they come in forms that can be construed as lines.

Are you aware that you don't have an unlimited right to proffer "what-ifs?" This isn't Imagination Day at Kindergarten. The plausibility of your suggestion is so low that it really deserves no consideration at all. And I do mean none.

And that is especially true considering that we already have an idea that is so much better and is, in fact, highly plausible. It makes no sense to replace a highly plausible idea with one that is entirely fanciful and implausible. Only an idea that has greater plausibility should replace the one that we have. And that highly plausible idea, of course, is that Lovelady drew the line in making his arrow.

You have to remember that he did draw it somewhere on that copy. That is not in doubt. Yet, it does not exist anywhere else on CE 369. And yes, I have checked and thoroughly. I have explored that doorway area of CE 369 under bright light and magnification, and more than once, looking for a hint of Lovelady's arrow. But, it was only when I gave up on looking around Doorman and ventured over to Black Hole Man that I finally found what I was looking for.

Notice that angle of Lovelady's line is a pretty good match to Frazier's. I bet that's because Lovelady was influenced by the angle of the arrow he saw. And he may have conformed to it subconsciously. It's very natural to do that.

http://tinypic.com/r/15887r8/6

But thank you for proffering something, Lindsay. Maybe this will get the ball rolling. Now that you have broken the ice, perhaps others will come forward with their ideas. Let's plumb this thing together. All are welcome to try. But right now, we have only one plausible idea, and that is that it is part of Lovelady's arrow which he drew upon being requested to do so by Joseph Ball. Frankly, it is going to be very hard to unseat that from the top spot, but you are welcome to try.

[Pat Speer]

When we went through this last time, Robin, I added a few statements into my witness data base which helped me conclude the woman in question was either Sarah Stanton or Pauline Saunders. I apologize for not bringing them forth earlier.

William Lovelady stood on the front steps of the depository building and is easily identified in James Altgens' photo of the assassination, with the President's limo in the foreground and the front steps of the depository in the background. Due to Lovelady's resemblance to Oswald, however, some have tried to claim it is not Lovelady on the steps but Oswald--a claim refuted by everyone standing in the area. (11-22-63 sworn affidavit, 24H214) “When the President came by, Bill Shelley and I was standing on the steps in front of the building where I work. After he had passed and was about 50 yards past us I heard three shots. There was a slight pause after the first shot then the next two was right close together. I could not tell where the shots came from but sounded like they were across the street from us. However, that could have been caused by the echo.” (11-22-63 FBI report, CD5 p332-333) "On November 22, 1963, Lovelady and his foreman, Bill Shelley, were standing on the front doorstep at 411 Elm Street at about 12:30 P.M. watching the Presidential motorcade pass. At about this time he heard three shots. At first he thought it was a firecracker or the backfire of a motorcycle." (3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H662) “At the time the presidential motorcade passed the Depository building heading west on Elm Street I was standing on the top step to the far right of the wall to the entrance way to the Texas School Book Depository Building. At this time I recall that William H. Shelley...and Mrs. Sarah Stanton...both of whom are likewise employed at the Texas School Book Depository, were standing next to me. I recall that following the passing of the Presidential motorcade, as the car in which the President was riding traveled down the Elm Street extension, I heard several loud reports which I first thought to be firecrackers, and which appeared to me to be in the direction of the Elm Street viaduct just ahead of the motorcade. I did not at any time believe the shots had come from the Texas School Book Depository Building. I am acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald as a fellow employee only and I recall that on the morning of November 22, 1963, I was on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository putting down a new wooden floor when Oswald came over to me and asked where a certain book was stored. I don't recall name of the book but told him that book was out of stock. That is the last time I saw Oswald prior to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy...I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building.” (4-7-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H336-341) (When asked who was with him on the front steps when the shots were fired) "Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton and right behind me..." (When asked what he heard) “I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn’t occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot." (When asked from where he thought the shots had been fired) "Right there around that concrete little deal on that knoll...to my right. I was standing as you are going down the steps, I was standing on the right, sounded like it was in that area...Between the underpass and the building right on that knoll." (When shown Exhibit 369--a photo by James Altgens of the shooting with President Kennedy's limo in the foreground, and Lovelady on the front steps of the book depository in the background, and asked to mark the picture and identify himself.) "Right there at the entrance of the building standing on the top of the step, would be here (indicating)...It would be your top level." (When asked what Gloria Calvary told him) "She had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit." (When asked what he and Shelley did after talking to Calvary) "We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying…and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.” (5-23-64 UPI article found in the 5-24-64 New York Times) "Billy Lovelady, an employee of the Texas Schoolbook Depository, identified himself today as the man seen in a doorway in a photo taken moments after President Kennedy was shot. 'I recall standing in the doorway and I have about 20 witnesses who were there near me,' he said. 'They will verify it was me.' Many newspapers in Europe published in weekend editions an American photograph taken a split second after Mr. Kennedy was shot last Nov. 22. The picture purported to show a man who looked like Lee H. Oswald, the accused assassin, standing in the doorway of the depository building. Newspaper descriptions said the man 'bears an extraordinary resemblance' to Oswald, who was shot two days later by Jack L. Ruby. Authorities said that minutes after the shooting Oswald was seen in a second-floor lunch-room of the building. The shots were fired from the sixth floor. The newspapers asked, 'If the man in the doorway was Oswald, who, then, fired the bullets which killed the President?' Mr. Lovelady, a stock clerk, said he had given testimony about the photo to agents of the Warren Commission investigating the assassination. He said he had also cooperated with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. He said that investigators for both the F.B.I. and the Warren Commission were satisfied it was he and not Oswald in the doorway. Mr. Lovelady said the F.B.I. had taken pictures of him from various angles and that he had been shown a three-by-four foot blowup of the doorway picture and asked if he was in it. 'I immediately pointed to myself in the doorway,' Mr. Lovelady said. He said he was about 15 to 20 pounds heavier than Oswald and about three inches shorter. Asked whether there was any resemblance to Oswald, he replied, 'I’m fatter in the face.'''It was me in the doorway,' he said. 'If anyone doesn’t believe it, they will just have to take my word.' Dallas authorities said the photograph had been examined carefully after the assassination." (5-24-64 article by Dom Bonafede in the New York Herald-Tribune) (While discussing the person in the Altgens photo some claim is Oswald) "Lovelady maintains it is he standing in the doorway at the moment of the assassination. 'I was standing on the first step,' he told me when I interviewed him in Dallas two weeks ago. 'Several people saw me. That lady shielding her eyes works here on the second floor.' (While discussing the shots) "He said that while watching the motorcade from the doorway of the Book Depository he distinctly heard three shots--'there was one, then a pause, then two fast ones.'"

William Shelley (11-22-63 statement to the Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 24H226) “The President’s car was about halfway from Houston Street to the Triple Underpass when I heard what sounded like three shots. I couldn’t tell where they came from. I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. The girl’s name is Gloria Calvery… I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife and told her what had happened. I was on the first floor then and I stayed at the elevator and was told not to let anyone out of the elevator. (3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H673) “as the Presidential motorcade passed I was standing just outside the glass doors of the entrance. At the time President Kennedy was shot, I was standing at this same place. Billy N. Lovelady who works under my supervision at the Texas School Book Depository was seated on the entrance steps just in front of me. I recall that Wesley Frazier, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mrs, Carolyn Arnold, all employees of the Texas School Book Depository, were also standing in this entrance way near me at the time Pres. Kennedy was shot. I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at the time Pres.Kennedy was shot. I did not observe any strangers in the building at any time during the morning of November 22, 1963. Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later. I remained in the building until about 1:30 PM when I was asked to go to the Dallas Police Dept. to furnish an affidavit. I returned to the Texas School Book Depository about 5 PM. I did not leave the building until about 7 PM that day." (4-7-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H327-334) (When asked with whom he had lunch out on the front steps) "Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards." (When asked where they were standing) "Just outside the glass doors there." (When asked what he heard) “I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together…Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn’t real loud…Sounded like it came from the west…officers started running down to the lumber yards and Billy and I walked down that way. We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end…in the side door into the shipping room… I saw Eddie Piper… He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.”

Sarah Stanton (11-23-63 FBI report, CD7 p.20) “Sarah Stanton...advised that she is employed in the second floor office of the Texas School Book Depository...and at about 12:30 on November 22, 1963, she was standing on the front steps as the President passed and shortly thereafter she heard three explosions; however, she did not know where they came from and immediately went into the building, caught the elevator, and went to the second floor offices, and into the office of the Southwestern Publishing Company, located there, to try to look out the window and see what was happening. She then went to the restroom and later returned to her desk.” (3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H675) “when President John F. Kennedy was shot, I was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository with Mr. William Shelley…Mr. Otis Williams…Mrs. T.B. Saunders…and Billy Lovelady. I heard three shots after the President’s car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President’s car at that time. I cannot say positively where the shots came from. I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at that time or at any time during that day.”

Pauline Saunders (11-24-63 FBI report, 22H844) “advised she arrived at work at 8:45 A.M. on November 22, 1963 and immediately reported to main office where she was employed...she went outside to watch the presidential parade about 11:25 A.M...she stood in the last line of spectators nearest the door to the School Book Depository building…she could not recall the exact time but immediately after the Presidential parade passed she heard three loud blasts and she immediately realized that the shots or whatever it was came from the building above her…Mr. Campbell, Office Manager, arrived shortly after the police officer entered the building and she told him the blasts came from the upper part of the building however he insisted the shots came from the embankment.” (3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H672) “At approximately 12:20 PM on November 22, 1963, I left the lunchroom on the second floor of the building and went out the front entrance to await the arrival of the presidential motorcade which I knew was due to pass the Depository about 12:30 PM. I took up a position at the top of the front steps of the Depository building facing Elm Street. To the best of my recollection, I was standing on the top step at the east end of the entrance. I recall that while standing there I noticed Mrs. Sarah Stanton standing next to me, but I am unsure as to the others. Mrs. Stanton is likewise an employee of the Texas School Book Depository. To the best of my recollection I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time on November 22, 1963, and although I knew him by sight as an employee of the building I did not know him by name and had never spoken to him at any time. I do not recall seeing any strangers in the Texas School Book Depository Building at any time on the morning of November 22, 1963. After the motorcade car carrying President John F. Kennedy passed, I remained a moment on the steps, then walked out to the concrete island in front of the Depository Building to see what had happened. I remained there a moment and then returned to the Depository Building through the main entrance. I then walked to the second floor where I usually worked.”

Otis Williams (11-24-63 FBI report, CD5 p.64) “at the time the Presidential procession passed the Texas School Book Depository Building, Williams was on the front steps of the building. The Presidential car had just passed the building a few seconds and was out of sight over the embankment when Williams heard three loud blasts. He thought these blasts came from the location of the court house.” (2-18-64 report of the Dallas Police Department, box folder 19 file 20 of the Dallas JFK Archive) "He heard three shots that sounded like they were coming from the west side of the Texas School Book Depository. The president's car had gotten out of Mr. Williams' view when he heard the shots." (3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H683) “On November 22, 1963, at the time the Presidential motorcade passed the Texas School Book Depository, I was standing on the top step against the railing on the east side of the steps in front of the building. I do not recall who was standing at either side of me, but I do know that Mrs. Robert E. Saunders, also an employee of the Texas School Book Depository, viewed the motorcade. Just after the presidential car passed the building and went out of sight over the Elm Street embankment I heard three loud blasts. I thought these blasts or shots came from the direction of the viaduct which crosses Elm Street.” (No More Silence p.116-120, published 1998) “when the motorcade came around the corner and then made that bend to get to the underpass, I had a clear view as it passed by of the President and all in the car, and then it went behind a little wall going toward the underpass. Probably five or ten seconds later is when I first thought I heard the shots. The first one I assumed someone threw a firecracker… It was about five or ten seconds before he was hit when he went out of my sight. I definitely heard three shots. Fact is, as soon as the third shot happened, and everybody commenced milling around, I thought it came from the underpass.”

Edited March 10, 2013 by Pat Speer

[Robin Unger]

Thanks Pat

My best bet would be Sarah Stanton

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

(continued)

When the government has had 50 years and unlimited taxpayer money to deal with the cover-up, which

was meticulously planned from the beginning, we should expect that major discoveries are going to be

few and far between. In this case, the "arrow" that Ralph has discovered falls into that category: only

partial and difficult to discern, it makes sense of the procedure that the commission was employing with

Ball the "master of ceremonies" at yet one more move in the most elaborate attempt to misleading the

deceive the American people in its history. By having Frazier mark first the predetermined location he

knew to identify, which was not itself marked as "BFW", and by giving Billy a black marker to use in an

area that was mostly black, it was a set-up to create the impression that Frazier's arrow was the one

Billy had impose. It was a clever ruse and appears to have withstood discovery for nearly 50 years.

None of us should be under any illusions that, with a charade (the whole cover-up, including stealing

the body, altering the X-rays, substituting another brain, reworking the home movies, and more) this

extensive, they were going to leave Oswald in the doorway without taking steps to eradicate it. The

ambiguity served them well for nearly 50 years, where even Oliver Stone, no doubt affected by the

views of Robert Groden (who continues to insist the films are authentic and endorses autopsy photos

that cannot possibly be bona fide), was taken in. But BECAUSE OF HIS BACKGROUND IN DEALING

WITH PEOPLES BODIES AND CLOTHING, Ralph made a breakthrough with the realization that it was

the clothing and not the faces that mattered. The falsification of the cover-up has move one large step

further with this discovery, where there is no reasonable alternative explanation that that this is part of

Lovelady's arrow, which confirms his location at the time and for which we are all ultimately in his debt.

Edited March 10, 2013 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

And notice that Billy reinforces the point that the was on "the top step". This silliness about Black Hole

Man having been a woman is thereby debunked: As Larry Rivera explains in his brilliant study, there

wasn't room for anyone else! So if Billy was wearing the shirt he told the FBI (and Jones Harris) that

he was wearing and was located where he told the Warren Commission he was standing (and drew

and arrow by way of confirmation), he has to have been Black Hole Man! There was literally no room

for anyone else to have been there and therefore no room for doubt about where he was at the time.

Edited March 10, 2013 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Thanks to Pat Speer for posting some interesting information. Samples:

From Billy Lovelady:

Mr. Lovelady said the F.B.I. had taken pictures of him from various angles and that he had been shown a three-by-four foot blowup of the doorway picture and asked if he was in it. 'I immediately pointed to myself in the doorway,' Mr. Lovelady said. He said he was about 15 to 20 pounds heavier than Oswald and about three inches shorter. Asked whether there was any resemblance to Oswald, he replied, 'I’m fatter in the face.'''It was me in the doorway,' he said. 'If anyone doesn’t believe it, they will just have to take my word.'

That being the case, he cannot have been Doorman,

who looks like Lee Oswald but unlike Billy Lovelady.

Billy was 3" shorter and weight 15-20 pounds more.

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT DISPROOF OF THE IDEA

THAT BILLY WAS DOORMAN FROM BILLY HIMSELF.

From Bill Shelley:

At the time President Kennedy was shot, I was standing at this same place. Billy N. Lovelady who works under my supervision at the Texas School Book Depository was seated on the entrance steps just in front of me. I recall that Wesley Frazier, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mrs, Carolyn Arnold, all employees of the Texas School Book Depository, were also standing in this entrance way near me at the time Pres. Kennedy was shot.

But if Billy had been seated, Billy could not have

been Doorman. And Shelley says he was seated.

Shelley, I am quite sure, was involved in setting

up Oswald, but this passage is a problem for the

brain trust here who wants to use him to bolster

their absurd theory of Billy having been Doorman.

More from Bill Shelley:

Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn’t real loud…Sounded like it came from the west…officers started running down to the lumber yards and Billy and I walked down that way. We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end…in the side door into the shipping room…

Since Bill and Billy headed down toward the

tracks and past the grassy knoll, it cannot be

the case that, when Lee told Fritz he was "out

with Bill Shelley in front", he meant AFTER THE

SHOOTING, because Shelly was no longer there.

[Robin Unger]

quote:

And notice that Billy reinforces the point that he was on "the top step". This silliness about Black Hole

Man having been a woman is thereby debunked

Does this Bob Jackson re-enactment look like Lovelady was standing on the top step ?

And remember Lovelady can't be playing games, because you told me he doesn't play games.

In the Bob Jackson re-enactment Lovelady is standing on step (2)

Edited March 10, 2013 by Robin Unger

[Lindsay Anderson]

But thank you for proffering something, Lindsay. Maybe this will get the ball rolling. Now that you have broken the ice, perhaps others will come forward with their ideas. Let's plumb this thing together. All are welcome to try. But right now, we have only one plausible idea, and that is that it is part of Lovelady's arrow which he drew upon being requested to do so by Joseph Ball. Frankly, it is going to be very hard to unseat that from the top spot, but you are welcome to try.

Thanks Ralph -

The main point of my post was to repeat that I have real difficulties accepting

- extensive alteration to the image

- that when considering who could be the doorman we are restricted to one of 3 persons

Most of my post unpacked why I have issues with the overall conclusion of these threads "Oswald = Doorman (we have proved it)".

Even if what you have found can be proved to be a missing arrow - those issues that prevent me accepting the overall conclusion remain.

My alternative suggestion re the "missing arrow"

My suggestion re the arrow was just that, a suggestion (I admit it is not as researched or as valid as your own) but I will unpack it some more below.

You asked for suggestions and I gave one, and by dirt or other contaminant I would include anything from dirt to hair to anything else that shouldn't be there but was introduced when the photo was handled, copied or otherwise processed.

I don't know how the image you show us came to be or what debris that process might add to the picture. At a minimum, after 369 was produced it was then handled, passed to Lovelady and Frazier for annotation, and handled again before further processing resulting in the digital image of 369 I've seen here. We will never know how many hands touched it, over what period, how it was stored, retrieved etc.

My understanding is that Altgens6 has been examined in great detail and still it has taken this long for the "arrow" (which should be there) to be found. It's exciting that you have found this now but we are a long way from being able to say this IS Lovelady's arrow or even that we should assume it to be unless a better explanation can be found.

Are there other, similar anomalies, in 369 (or other photos processed and handled in a similar fashion) that for now remain undiscovered? If the mark you have found results from processing and handling the likely answer is yes. Subjecting the entirety of 369 to the same degree of scrutiny as has been applied to the doorway is a lot of work but maybe a necessary control if you want to strengthen your argument.

Perhaps your challenge should be:

- give an alternative explanation for the mark you believe to be a partial arrow OR

- show similar unexplained marks on other annotated evidence that are not found on those documents prior to annotation.

Still, the only way to be certain whether the mark is or isn't an arrow is to look at the actual document that Lovelady and Frazier annotated. The 2nd arrow, if there is one, should be visible even in the black, Is there a process through which researchers can request and obtain access to the original document, as there is with other valuable (even ancient) historical documents held by museums across the world? If so, the missing or partial arrow is surely sufficient grounds to request access, independent study and /or more detailed scans.

[Robin Unger]

The whole point of the O.I.P

Is NOT to use the best resolution images available, when making there unsubstantiated claims.

it is a tactic they use, to prevent researchers from studying there images in detail ( the smaller the image, the lower the resolution,and the more pixilated the better )

you only have to look at the Richard Hooke collages to see that.

small tiny poor resolution images, so that they can't be scrutinized by other researchers.

DON'T TAKE MY WORD FOR IT

Go to the O.I.P website and look for yourself.

Just Google " Oswald Innocence Project "

Edited March 10, 2013 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

All i see in this image is a " Black Dot " on the arm

probably a slip of the black marker pen, as the image was being handed around.

Arrow, what Arrow ?

There is no Arrow to be seen in this poor quality, tiny image ?

SHOW ME THE ARROW

Edited March 10, 2013 by Robin Unger

[Ralph Cinque]

Lindsay, I agree that examining the actual CE 369 would be a good idea. However, I wouldn't put it past them to alter it at this late date or even replace it. Even as we speak, I'm sure there are people scrambling and scurrying, trying to decide what to do about this latest crisis. Therefore, no matter what it might show, the published CE 369 still counts; it still matters.

And the plain truth is that there are no other plausible possibillities other than it was Lovelady's arrow. You see, I, like God, do not play with dice and do not believe in coincidence. The idea that some "dirt" or a hair or a thread would just happen to lay down in that tiny spot- the very spot where Lovelady would draw it to himself were he Black Hole Man- is preposterous. And keep in mind that we have been saying for months in advance that Lovelady was Black Hole Man.

And to Robin Unger, the Jackson image you posted of Lovelady is fake. That was not Lovelady and that was not by Jackson. Here is the real one alongside that one.

Explain to me how a man could have a shadow going one way in one picture yet go the opposite way in another picture? How could he have an extra button in one picture? How could he have sideburns in one picture but not the other? How could his shirt furl differently from one to the other? That guy on the right was not Lovelady, and that was not taken as part of the Jackson photo shoot. So, your point about him standing on a lower step is meaningless.