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Zapruder film altered claim a red herring ?


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A little refresher course for Craig.

Starting point at Station# 2+00

Frame161 is at 3+29.2 = 129.2ft from Station 2+00

3+29.2 - 94.7ft = 2+34.5 = Station "C"

2+34.5 + 44ft = 2+78.5 = Position "A"

chris

Earth to Chris. That is not frame 161, its the ESTIMATION of where frame 161 MIGHT be.

Is this really that hard for you to understand?

Try this. Locate the EXACT position of the center of the film plane for ANY of the photographers in the plaza. Not even and inch of variation is allowed.

You can't do it Period. You can get close because the best you can do is estimate. Want examples? Look at the Moorman and the MANY attempts to find the exact spot. Lots of them are really close, none perfect. And that's with fixed points and multiple lines of sight.

And you think it was done EXACT using a moving object ( using the wrong object) and guesses as tot where the camreas were positioned? Please,

Come back to reality

Edited by Craig Lamson
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An inch of variation is very good. I can locate just about any film surface. What I have never worked with is a full copy of Wests notes (all of them, field notes, follow ups. and a full copy of his plat, and I don't want to have to unravel any mistakes re fitting pieces together). From that I can recreate the plat and then go on to locate people and things.

Those who have not done surveying need to realise that the surveyor and the survey assistance is a team effort. When it comes to important things like marking precicely where a workshop needs to drill holes in concrete to fix anchors to receiv a a piece of machinery or surveying a crime site, a trained team constantly seeks the important points in contour and content continually recording it as the survey steps across the site ending up with an incredibly accurate description of the site. Not only is this an opportunity to declare Watts authoritative but also do things like locate things.

edit typos

edit add. those notes are the plat, from the step off point to the national benchmark grid to every point in the plaza. Interpolations have a quantifiable error quotient. I just want to emphasize that the West survey is so fundamental and so much arguments stem from the fact that the fundament is not available. It's entered some alternate universe with the requisite priesthood as a conduit.

Edited by John Dolva
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An inch of variation is very good. I can locate just about any film surface. What I have never worked with is a full copy of Wests notes (all of them, field notes, follow ups. and a full copy of his plat, and I don't want to have to unravel any mistakes re fitting pieces together). From that I can recreate the plat and then go on to locate people and things.

Those who have not done surveying need to realise that the surveyor and the survey assistance is a team effort. When it comes to important things like marking precicely where a workshop needs to drill holes in concrete to fix anchors to receiv a a piece of machinery or surveying a crime site, a trained team constantly seeks the important points in contour and content continually recording it as the survey steps across the site ending up with an incredibly accurate description of the site. Not only is this an opportunity to declare Watts authoritative but also do things like locate things.

edit typos

edit add. those notes are the plat, from the step off point to the national benchmark grid to every point in the plaza. Interpolations have a quantifiable error quotient. I just want to emphasize that the West survey is so fundamental and so much arguments stem from the fact that the fundament is not available. It's entered some alternate universe with the requisite priesthood as a conduit.

There is no doubt you can find a POINT in the plaza, the question becomes does it represent the exact location of the LIMO for example. In your machinery example you start with plans giving you the intended locations. You don't have that with the films. You have 2d representation of moving 3d space.

So how do you KNOW if the resulting location of that moving object are correct? You can't and they won't be. There is just too much ambiguity.

Take the location of the Zapruder camera. If you miss the exact location by an inch or two you have already imparted compound errors over every measurement taken from that location. And that location error can be compound in itself if the error is in more that one axis.

Clearly they tried ..twice ...to recreate the events seen on the Zapruder film and they got two different results. Is that surprising Of course not. They could not ever recreate the recreations! And again that is no surprise. Exact recreations are simply impossible. At least those not done on computer controlled articulating camera mounts, and even those are plagued with the exact positioning of the SUBJECT matter and lighting.

Edited by Craig Lamson
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Indeed. It is one of the things that computers can do. Recrreate space using reference points. IOW use virtual ''computer controlled articulating camera mounts''. There are some remarkably simple ways to locate an object like the film surface. All (sound simple, right?) you have to do is understand some basic laws of physics that actually, believe it or not, are the same in Dealey Plaza as anywhere else.(I have hypothesised in the past that that is not so). The important ingredient in order to absolutely minimise errors is through a solid fundament. iow a vitual model of dealey plaza and the means to navigate it and view it through all sorts of lenses corneas, eyeglasses, camera lenses. Virtually, in stereo.

Where is the observer?

edit typos

Edited by John Dolva
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I wonder how this could be done if there were cuts and or bits missing,

Unless they were attempting to "prove" the final cut and interpret the events we see

In the "film of today" .either the timing is out or the film is not complete.

If Mr West's survey is accurate you could build a 3d model of the plaza

Then run the film through it using the west notes and Shaneyfelts data

It cannot be outside certain parameters if the fixed positions are there.

IOW I would not expect a 30-40 foot difference until this is shown physically

Most will not understand just looking at numbers or a plat covered in contours

And other distracting marks/ references.

Myers tried that just using the car data and it would appear he got some of his data wrong.

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I wonder how this could be done if there were cuts and or bits missing,

Unless they were attempting to "prove" the final cut and interpret the events we see

In the "film of today" .either the timing is out or the film is not complete.

If Mr West's survey is accurate you could build a 3d model of the plaza

Then run the film through it using the west notes and Shaneyfelts data

It cannot be outside certain parameters if the fixed positions are there.

IOW I would not expect a 30-40 foot difference until this is shown physically

Most will not understand just looking at numbers or a plat covered in contours

And other distracting marks/ references.

Myers tried that just using the car data and it would appear he got some of his data wrong.

IF..IF...IF...and of course that's the entire point.

And why not 30 feet? Fixed position are pretty much meaningless when you base the entire result on UNFIXED positions such the Zapruder camera location and the location of the limo (or JFK's head) even worst when you use the wrong car...just saying.

So back to square one. Chris ( and any number of other people) have proven the recreations produced different results. Chris and others want to say the head shot is farther down the street and the z film is faked. Only one problem, you will need to prove Altgens 6 and Moorman fakes as well. (not to mention other films, but lets jmake it easy) Good luck with that.

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A little refresher course for Craig.

Starting point at Station# 2+00

Frame161 is at 3+29.2 = 129.2ft from Station 2+00

3+29.2 - 94.7ft = 2+34.5 = Station "C"

2+34.5 + 44ft = 2+78.5 = Position "A"

chris

Craig,

Why do you want to move down to frame 161? You need to start from the beginning. That is your problem.

I have already shown you that the LOS rifle to JFK from the snipers nest is 80ft.

CE884 says it's supposed to be 91.6ft.

You can either go up street or down street from Position "A" to acquire the 91.6ft.

If you go up, you intersect Station 2+00, previously shown, will expand on that later.

If you go down, 15.5ft will give you the 91.6ft LOS distance.

15.5ft is also the distance between Station "C" (2+34.5) and the snipers nest. The snipers nest is at Station# 2+50.

That is the difference between "JFK in the limo" and the "limo front" in WC terms.

This is the WC initial distance spread to play with.

1inch=10ft for the attachment.

chris

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Craig,

Why do you want to move down to frame 161? You need to start from the beginning. That is your problem.

I have already shown you that the LOS rifle to JFK from the snipers nest is 80ft.

CE884 says it's supposed to be 91.6ft.

You can either go up street or down street from Position "A" to acquire the 91.6ft.

If you go up, you intersect Station 2+00, previously shown, will expand on that later.

If you go down, 15.5ft will give you the 91.6ft LOS distance.

15.5ft is also the distance between Station "C" (2+34.5) and the snipers nest. The snipers nest is at Station# 2+50.

That is the difference between "JFK in the limo" and the "limo front" in WC terms.

This is the WC initial distance spread to play with.

1inch=10ft for the attachment.

chris

Earth to Chris...did you even read your last post? I guess not...this is the first few lines...

"Starting point at Station# 2+00

Frame161 is at 3+29.2 = 129.2ft from Station 2+00"

You have lost it Chris. Those numbers are estimates Chris. The sooner you learn to deal with this reality the better chance you might have of finding your sanity again. I can hope but I'm not holding my breath.

ESTIMATES Chris...ESTIMATES.

Edited by Craig Lamson
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So within tolerances to Craig means: initially within 15.5ft.

You can't show ANY of the numbers are correct so you can't show there is really a 15.5 foot difference. Get that through your head. Or not. Your choice.

ALL the numbers are estimates Chris. But hey keep playing with your fantasy as long as you like. In the end it will still be just a bunch of garbage based on garbage. You are too far gone to have the intellectual honesty to see that.

BTW, can you locate Towners film plane to within an inch? How about 12 inches? If you can't you have just proven the numbers are ESTIMATES Chris. Are you rational enough to understand how this applies?

Edited by Craig Lamson
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