Ask The Experts

[Robert Prudhomme]

Mr. Lamson

You stated:

"And of course he DID get it correct regardless of how he viewed the film. JFK's head DID move violently forward."

As I have clearly demonstrated, it would have been impossible for Mr. Rather, in 1963, to have been able to discern the forward movement of JFK's head that occurred in one frame (1/18.3 second) of the Zapruder film.

How, then, did he "get it correct"? Was Mr. Rather psychic? If you insist on making such wild statements, I believe you owe it to this forum to substantiate your claims.

[Ken Rheberg]

Mr. MacRae

As Mr. Lamson seems to be desperately avoiding the question, perhaps you could tell this forum how Mr. Rather was able to see the violent forward motion of JFK's head, if that entire forward motion took place in one frame (1/18.3 second) of the Zapruder film?

Poor bobby, you are SO technically inept.

Ever heard of slow speed playback? Frame by frame playback?

You seem to (wrongly) assume the film had to be viewed at a single playback speed. (And what playback speed would that be bobby?)

Again I was not there, so I don't know how the film was viewed by Dan Rather. Neither do you.

But one thing is abundantly clear, you simply don't have a clue how REALITY works.

You should have quit MANY posts ago.

So you don't know how the film was viewed by Dan Rather.

Maybe Dan can help you. This is what he said fourteen years after the assassination. . .

"The lawyer laid out the ground rules for us. . . You went in, looked at the film one time, took no notes, came out and gave him your bid. . . I stepped into the room, did not even sit down, looked at the film one time, hooked it out of there and fled back to the station."

Dan "hooked it out of there" so fast that he never even made a bid. He was more concerned at the time with getting his description of the film on TV. "Then, and only then, would we get into the bidding," he said.

That should be clear enough for most reasonable people. The picture he's painting here is a quick, one-time only showing of a 22 second film, first for Dan, after which Dan was supposed to have made a bid. Then it would be the next viewer's turn. And the next. No cruel, sick slow-mo of a grizzly head shot. Regular speed was bad enough. Just show the film. One time for each viewer. Twenty-two seconds. Get the bid. In and out. Dan Rather's version of Saturday morning.

All the other evidence, however, paints a completely different picture. Which happened on Monday.

[Craig Lamson]

So you don't know how the film was viewed by Dan Rather.

Maybe Dan can help you. This is what he said fourteen years after the assassination. . .

"The lawyer laid out the ground rules for us. . . You went in, looked at the film one time, took no notes, came out and gave him your bid. . . I stepped into the room, did not even sit down, looked at the film one time, hooked it out of there and fled back to the station."

Dan "hooked it out of there" so fast that he never even made a bid. He was more concerned at the time with getting his description of the film on TV. "Then, and only then, would we get into the bidding," he said.

That should be clear enough for most reasonable people. The picture he's painting here is a quick, one-time only showing of a 22 second film, first for Dan, after which Dan was supposed to have made a bid. Then it would be the next viewer's turn. And the next. No cruel, sick slow-mo of a grizzly head shot. Regular speed was bad enough. Just show the film. One time for each viewer. Twenty-two seconds. Get the bid. In and out. Dan Rather's version of Saturday morning.

All the other evidence, however, paints a completely different picture. Which happened on Monday.

And yet in his oral account on Youtube he tells and I paraphrase , There it was all laid out FRAME BY FRAME.

And again, all of this is really quite meaningless. If he lied and did not really see it, Fine. If he DID really see it, fine.

The end of the story is regardless of HOW he came to make the statement, he GOT IT CORRECT. JFK's head DOES move violently forward. Which takes us full circle back to my very first post on this matter.

[Robert Prudhomme]

So you don't know how the film was viewed by Dan Rather.

Maybe Dan can help you. This is what he said fourteen years after the assassination. . .

"The lawyer laid out the ground rules for us. . . You went in, looked at the film one time, took no notes, came out and gave him your bid. . . I stepped into the room, did not even sit down, looked at the film one time, hooked it out of there and fled back to the station."

Dan "hooked it out of there" so fast that he never even made a bid. He was more concerned at the time with getting his description of the film on TV. "Then, and only then, would we get into the bidding," he said.

That should be clear enough for most reasonable people. The picture he's painting here is a quick, one-time only showing of a 22 second film, first for Dan, after which Dan was supposed to have made a bid. Then it would be the next viewer's turn. And the next. No cruel, sick slow-mo of a grizzly head shot. Regular speed was bad enough. Just show the film. One time for each viewer. Twenty-two seconds. Get the bid. In and out. Dan Rather's version of Saturday morning.

All the other evidence, however, paints a completely different picture. Which happened on Monday.

And yet in his oral account on Youtube he tells and I paraphrase , There it was all laid out FRAME BY FRAME.

And again, all of this is really quite meaningless. If he lied and did not really see it, Fine. If he DID really see it, fine.

The end of the story is regardless of HOW he came to make the statement, he GOT IT CORRECT. JFK's head DOES move violently forward. Which takes us full circle back to my very first post on this matter.

Mr. Lamson

" There it was all laid out FRAME BY FRAME."

If you have paraphrased this sentence, would you be so kind as to print the entire text and cite your source for this quote from Dan Rather?

[Craig Lamson]

So you don't know how the film was viewed by Dan Rather.

Maybe Dan can help you. This is what he said fourteen years after the assassination. . .

"The lawyer laid out the ground rules for us. . . You went in, looked at the film one time, took no notes, came out and gave him your bid. . . I stepped into the room, did not even sit down, looked at the film one time, hooked it out of there and fled back to the station."

Dan "hooked it out of there" so fast that he never even made a bid. He was more concerned at the time with getting his description of the film on TV. "Then, and only then, would we get into the bidding," he said.

That should be clear enough for most reasonable people. The picture he's painting here is a quick, one-time only showing of a 22 second film, first for Dan, after which Dan was supposed to have made a bid. Then it would be the next viewer's turn. And the next. No cruel, sick slow-mo of a grizzly head shot. Regular speed was bad enough. Just show the film. One time for each viewer. Twenty-two seconds. Get the bid. In and out. Dan Rather's version of Saturday morning.

All the other evidence, however, paints a completely different picture. Which happened on Monday.

And yet in his oral account on Youtube he tells and I paraphrase , There it was all laid out FRAME BY FRAME.

And again, all of this is really quite meaningless. If he lied and did not really see it, Fine. If he DID really see it, fine.

The end of the story is regardless of HOW he came to make the statement, he GOT IT CORRECT. JFK's head DOES move violently forward. Which takes us full circle back to my very first post on this matter.

Mr. Lamson

" There it was all laid out FRAME BY FRAME."

If you have paraphrased this sentence, would you be so kind as to print the entire text and cite your source for this quote from Dan Rather?

YOUTUBE...try a google

4:22

[Robert Prudhomme]

So you don't know how the film was viewed by Dan Rather.

Maybe Dan can help you. This is what he said fourteen years after the assassination. . .

"The lawyer laid out the ground rules for us. . . You went in, looked at the film one time, took no notes, came out and gave him your bid. . . I stepped into the room, did not even sit down, looked at the film one time, hooked it out of there and fled back to the station."

Dan "hooked it out of there" so fast that he never even made a bid. He was more concerned at the time with getting his description of the film on TV. "Then, and only then, would we get into the bidding," he said.

That should be clear enough for most reasonable people. The picture he's painting here is a quick, one-time only showing of a 22 second film, first for Dan, after which Dan was supposed to have made a bid. Then it would be the next viewer's turn. And the next. No cruel, sick slow-mo of a grizzly head shot. Regular speed was bad enough. Just show the film. One time for each viewer. Twenty-two seconds. Get the bid. In and out. Dan Rather's version of Saturday morning.

All the other evidence, however, paints a completely different picture. Which happened on Monday.

And yet in his oral account on Youtube he tells and I paraphrase , There it was all laid out FRAME BY FRAME.

And again, all of this is really quite meaningless. If he lied and did not really see it, Fine. If he DID really see it, fine.

The end of the story is regardless of HOW he came to make the statement, he GOT IT CORRECT. JFK's head DOES move violently forward. Which takes us full circle back to my very first post on this matter.

Mr. Lamson

" There it was all laid out FRAME BY FRAME."

If you have paraphrased this sentence, would you be so kind as to print the entire text and cite your source for this quote from Dan Rather?

YOUTUBE...try a google

4:22

Mr. Lamson

Mr. Rather's actual unparaphrased words were, "They turned the projector on and there it was, the whole assassination; you know, frame by frame by frame. IT ALL WENT BY FAIRLY QUICKLY, BUT IT WAS ALL THERE." (capitals added by me for emphasis)

I sincerely hope, Mr. Lamson, that you were not attempting to deceive the members of this forum into believing that Mr. Rather was allowed to do a frame by frame stop action analysis of the Zapruder film, when his actual words tell us something entirely different.

That being said, the question remains, how was Mr. Rather able to discern the forward motion of JFK's head in frame z312 of the Zapruder film, when that forward motion only took place in one frame (1/18.3 second) of that film?

If you are unable to answer the question, please just admit this to the forum and stop wasting everyone's time.

[Craig Lamson]

Mr. Lamson

Mr. Rather's actual unparaphrased words were, "They turned the projector on and there it was, the whole assassination; you know, frame by frame by frame. IT ALL WENT BY FAIRLY QUICKLY, BUT IT WAS ALL THERE." (capitals added by me for emphasis)

I sincerely hope, Mr. Lamson, that you were not attempting to deceive the members of this forum into believing that Mr. Rather was allowed to do a frame by frame stop action analysis of the Zapruder film, when his actual words tell us something entirely different.

That being said, the question remains, how was Mr. Rather able to discern the forward motion of JFK's head in frame z312 of the Zapruder film, when that forward motion only took place in one frame (1/18.3 second) of that film?

If you are unable to answer the question, please just admit this to the forum and stop wasting everyone's time.

I just posted what he said bobby, and quite frankly your continued attempts here are simply silly. BTW, what exactly is FAIRLY QUICKLY? 22 seconds? 60 seconds, 2 mins? 5 mins? And despite your best attempt to warp the words it is not clear if it was stop action, slo-mo or real time projection bobby.

See the problem when what you rely on are WORDS bobby?

I don't care what he said, how he said it or WHY he said it. I direct you to this from another post of mine. Not that I expect you to be able to actually read and comprehend.

And again, all of this is really quite meaningless. If he lied and did not really see it, Fine. If he DID really see it, fine.

The end of the story is regardless of HOW he came to make the statement, he GOT IT CORRECT. JFK's head DOES move violently forward. Which takes us full circle back to my very first post on this matter.

You keep looking worse and worse with every post.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Craig Lamson

[Craig Lamson]

...did not even sit down, looked at the film one time, hooked it out of there and fled back to the station."

Again from the youtube video...

talking about viewing the film

"I almost levitated out of my chair"

"I leapt out of my chair"

Words....people...welcome to reality

[Robert Prudhomme]

Mr. Lamson

Mr. Rather's actual unparaphrased words were, "They turned the projector on and there it was, the whole assassination; you know, frame by frame by frame. IT ALL WENT BY FAIRLY QUICKLY, BUT IT WAS ALL THERE." (capitals added by me for emphasis)

I sincerely hope, Mr. Lamson, that you were not attempting to deceive the members of this forum into believing that Mr. Rather was allowed to do a frame by frame stop action analysis of the Zapruder film, when his actual words tell us something entirely different.

That being said, the question remains, how was Mr. Rather able to discern the forward motion of JFK's head in frame z312 of the Zapruder film, when that forward motion only took place in one frame (1/18.3 second) of that film?

If you are unable to answer the question, please just admit this to the forum and stop wasting everyone's time.

I just posted what he said bobby, and quite frankly your continued attempts here are simply silly. BTW, what exactly is FAIRLY QUICKLY? 22 seconds? 60 seconds, 2 mins? 5 mins? And despite your best attempt to warp the words it is not clear if it was stop action, slo-mo or real time projection bobby.

See the problem when what you rely on are WORDS bobby?

I don't care what he said, how he said it or WHY he said it. I direct you to this from another post of mine. Not that I expect you to be able to actually read and comprehend.

And again, all of this is really quite meaningless. If he lied and did not really see it, Fine. If he DID really see it, fine.

The end of the story is regardless of HOW he came to make the statement, he GOT IT CORRECT. JFK's head DOES move violently forward. Which takes us full circle back to my very first post on this matter.

You keep looking worse and worse with every post.

Mr. Lamson

On the contrary, you did not post what Mr. Rather said. You paraphrased his words in what appears to be a rather shoddy and dishonest attempt to have the members of this forum believe Mr. Rather said something he did not.

How dare you accuse me of warping words, sir. It is the consensus of most forum members I have spoken with that it would be best for all if you were to be banned from this forum for what appear to be deliberate attempts to misquote for the purpose of deception.

If Mr. Rather "got it correct" about JFK's head moving forward during only one frame (1/18.3 second) of the Zapruder film, z312, just how did he come by this information? Was he psychic? Was it just a lucky guess?

Edited May 28, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[Craig Lamson]

Mr. Lamson

On the contrary, you did not post what Mr. Rather said. You paraphrased his words in what appears to be a rather shoddy and dishonest attempt to have the members of this forum believe Mr. Rather said something he did not.

How dare you accuse me of warping words, sir. It is the consensus of most forum members I have spoken with that it would be best for all if you were to be banned from this forum for what appear to be deliberate attempts to misquote for the purpose of deception.

If Mr. Rather "got it correct" about JFK's head moving forward during only one frame (1/18.3 second) of the Zapruder film, z312, just how did he come by this information? Was he psychic? Was it just a lucky guess?

I got the words correct bobby. Sorry if your limited reading and comprehension ability got in the way.

Lets review:

My paraphrase:

There it was all laid out FRAME BY FRAME.

Actual words:

They turned the projector on and there it was. the whole assassination; you know, frame by frame by frame."

Please note the PERIOD at the end of the actual quotation.

You are wrong AGAIN bobby.

I refer you back to the beginning of this very silly crusade of yours.

I said then I did not know how Rather viewed the film. I STILL DON'T. Neither do you. Actually NO ONE DOES but the people who were in the room. I never claimed he viewed it in stop motion, or slo-mo or even in real time. I just posted his words. Now you can try and say I tried to deceive, yet I gladly posted the link to the video.

Yes you are warping words, that's reality booby, deal with it. I can see you take getting smacked down here as badly as you did at Duncans.

I don't know or care how Rather came to say what he did but the fact still remains the film DOES show a violent forward movement.

Again, in case you missed it every other time it has been posted, that's the REALITY of the situation. Leave ti to bobby to try and make a HUGE mountain out of nothing.

And wow, people want me banned? Imagine that.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Craig Lamson

[Robert Prudhomme]

Mr. Lamson

Yes, they do. In fact, from the people I spoke with, it seems to be unanimous. They said quite a number of other things, as well, but I'm afraid it's not fit for posting here.

Now, the reality of the situation is this. Dan Rather could not possibly have seen the forward motion of JFK's head in frame z312 of the present version of the Zapruder film, even if he was viewing still frames of it or stop action of the film. Despite your attempt at taking Mr. Rather's words out of context, there is not even a hint that he did anything but watch the film at regular speed. "It all went by fairly quickly...." (Dan Rather's words) does not tell me he was watching the film in slow motion.

The REALITY of the situation is that Mr. Rather reported something he could not possibly have seen. The REALITY of the situation is, the ONLY way Mr. Rather could have seen a forward head movement at z312 is if the original, unaltered version of this film showed the forward head movement for a much greater number of frames.

[Craig Lamson]

Mr. Lamson

Yes, they do. In fact, from the people I spoke with, it seems to be unanimous. They said quite a number of other things, as well, but I'm afraid it's not fit for posting here.

Wow. I shaking in my boots. I'm not surprised and this is nothing new. I bust a lot of silly ct bubble, just like i have yours in this very thread.

Now, the reality of the situation is this. Dan Rather could not possibly have seen the forward motion of JFK's head in frame z312 of the present version of the Zapruder film, even if he was viewing still frames of it or stop action of the film. Despite your attempt at taking Mr. Rather's words out of context, there is not even a hint that he did anything but watch the film at regular speed. "It all went by fairly quickly...." (Dan Rather's words) does not tell me he was watching the film in slow motion.

No the reality is this bobby. You don't have the first clue what Rather could or could not have seen because you don't have the first clue HOW he viewed the movie. And of COURSE he could have seen the forward movement in stop action and even in slo-mo. We have proof of that in the form of a gif on this very thread. Rather's words IN CONTEXT are not conclusive. You can't even begin to tell us how long it took to view the film, and his frame by frame comments are also ambiguous. The REALITY is there is no hint AT ALL of how he actually watch the film.

You just continue to twist the words to fit your warped worldview. Who are you trying to deceive bobby?

The REALITY of the situation is that Mr. Rather reported something he could not possibly have seen. The REALITY of the situation is, the ONLY way Mr. Rather could have seen a forward head movement at z312 is if the original, unaltered version of this film showed the forward head movement for a much greater number of frames.

No bobby that's not even CLOSE to reality. And best of luck with that altered Zapruder film nonsense. That's been a loser for nearly 50 years now.

Its your silly fantasy. As we can see in this post alone, you can't handle reality. You run from reality. You are deathly AFRAID of reality because it DESTROYS the neat little FANTASY world you have constructed to contain your warped worldview.

Lets get real bobby. Your fantasy has run amok. Before you got bounced from Duncans for claiming most everyone who disagreed with were paid CIA or whrtever , you claimed I did not exist. When challenged you googled me and called me late one night and were SHOCKED to find I was exactly who I said I was. This is really KOOKY stuff bobby. FANTASY WORLD STUFF.

Clearly you are beyond actually dealing directly with the reality here. You are far to vested in your fantasy.

So carry on. You are your own worst enemy. And I find you worthy of only amusement value at this point.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Craig Lamson

[Pat Speer]

I'm too tired to really think about it, but it seems pretty clear that Robert and Craig have crossed a line.

1. Members should not post gossip about other members a la "I talked to someone and they said you stink" blah blah blah.

and

2. Members should not attack other members. Claiming another member is "warped", "kooky," and living in a "fantasy land," does little to illuminate the issues being discussed.

Might I suggest you both clean up your behavior (and posts) before you end up on moderation?

P.S. Craig is wrong. Dan Rather has admitted that at first glance he'd mistakenly thought the fatal shot toppled Kennedy forward, and not backward. He did not view the film 1 frame at a time. He was not talking about 1 frame. He made a mistake, and misled people.

But he was not alone. The newspapers and airwaves were filled with such mistakes. Some of them were in fact the same mistakes. This raises the possibility, then, that some source was providing members of the media with misinformation.

From patspeer.com, chapter1:

Meanwhile, in radio and TV land, a whole new reign of error was beginning. CBS newsman Dan Rather, after viewing the home movie of the assassination taken by Abraham Zapruder, rushed back to the studio to describe the film for CBS News' radio and television audience. His description was to have many unfortunate consequences. (This first transcript was published by Richard Trask in Pictures of the Pain.)

Dan Rather (Radio Take 1): "Well, let me tell you then, give you a word picture of the motion picture we have just seen. The President's automobile which was preceded by only one other car containing Secret Service Agents...the President's open black Lincoln automobile made a turn, a left turn off of Houston Street in Dallas onto Elm Street, this was right on the fringe area of the downtown area. This left turn was made right below the window from which the shot was fired...as the car made the turn, completed the turn--went below the window from which this shot was fired...went on past the building--keep in mind the window was on the sixth floor...it got about 35 yards from the base of the building...that is if you had dropped a plumb line from the window to the sidewalk to...the President's car was around 35 yards from that spot...President Kennedy had just put his right hand up to the side of his right eye. It appeared that he was perhaps brushing back his hair or rubbing his eyebrow. Mrs. Kennedy was not looking in his direction. In front of them in the jump seat of the Lincoln...were Governor and Mrs. Connally. The Governor, as was the President, was on the side of the car of the building in which the assassin was located. Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally were on the opposite side. Two Secret Service men on the front seat...At almost the instant the President put his hand up to his eyebrow...on the right side of his face, with Mrs. Kennedy looking away, the President lurched forward just a bit. Uh, it was obvious he had been hit in the movie but you had to be looking very closely in order to see it. Mrs. Kennedy did not appear to be aware that he was hit but Governor Connally in the seat just in front of the President, seemingly heard the shot...or sensed that something was wrong...Governor Connally, whose coat button was open, turned in such a way to extend his right hand out towards the President and the Governor seemed to have a look on his face that might say "What is it? What happened?" And as he turned he exposed his entire shirt front and chest because his coat was unbuttoned...at that moment a shot very clearly hit that part of the Governor. He was wounded once with a chest shot, this we now know...Uh, the Governor fell back in his seat...Mrs. Connally immediately fell over the Governor. Uh, I say fell, she threw herself over the Governor and at that instant the second shot the third shot total but the second shot hit President Kennedy and there was no doubt there, his head...went forward with considerable violence."

(Note: Rather's description here is quite controversial. As Kennedy's head actually goes slightly forward, and then back and to the left with considerable violence, many see his saying that Kennedy went forward with considerable violence as a deliberate lie designed to sell the American people that the fatal shot came from behind. If it is true that Rather was trying to sell the American people the single-assassin scenario, however, it back-fired, as he also claimed the film showed Connally being hit well after Kennedy had first been hit, which is in conflict with the single-bullet theory so central to the single-assassin conclusion.)

Rather then described the aftermath of the shooting: "Mrs. Kennedy stood up immediately her mouth wide open...The President slumped over against Mrs. Kennedy almost toppling her over as she was standing...Mrs. Kennedy then threw herself out of the back seat of the car onto the trunk of the car almost on all fours...stretched out over the trunk of the car...There was a Secret Service man standing on the back bumper. It would appear that Mrs. Kennedy was either trying to get herself out of what she knew instinctively was danger or perhaps was trying to grab the Secret Service man and pull him into the back seat of the car for help. At any rate Mrs. Kennedy was prone, uh face down on the back of the car on the trunk...The Secret Service man leaned over put his hands on her shoulders and shoved her back into the car. He seemed to be in danger of perhaps rolling or falling off the back. A Secret Service man in the front seat of the car uh was already on the telephone perhaps he had been on the phone all along it was not clear and the car sped away."

Rather then answered a few questions from his fellow newsmen Richard Hotelett and Hughes Rudd. When asked if the limo ever stopped, he replied "The car never stopped, it never paused." When asked the length of the film, he replied "Well, the complete scene that I just described to you covers exactly 20 seconds--that is from the time the car made the turn until the car disappeared onto an underpass." When asked if the President was hit twice, he then added: "It was very clear that the President was hit twice. He was hit, Governor Connally was hit and the Gov...uh the President was hit again." When asked the length of the shooting sequence itself, he then offered: "No more than five seconds and I...am inclined to think slightly less than that perhaps."

(Note: when all is said and done, this was perhaps Rather's biggest mistake. By assuming that the fatal head shot was the third shot, and timing the shooting sequence from the first hit to the final hit, without accepting that there could have been a miss--without studying the eyewitness testimony, moreover, to see that there very likely was a miss--Rather thoroughly misled the public.)

Rather was then rushed onto television to describe the film to Walter Cronkite during CBS News' ongoing coverage of the assassination and aftermath. (Transcript as posted by Paul Rigby on the Education Forum, 11-15-12)

Dan Rather (TV Take 1): "We have just returned from seeing a complete motion picture of the moments preceding, and the moments of, President Kennedy’s assassination and the shooting of Texas Governor John Connally. Here is what the motion picture shows. The automobile, the black Lincoln convertible, with the top down - carrying, in the front seat, two secret service agents; in the middle, or jump seat, the Governor and Mrs. Connally; and, in the rear seat, President and Mrs. Kennedy – made a turn off of Houston Street, on to Elm Street. This was a left turn and was made right in front of the building from which the assassin’s bullet was fired. After making the turn, and going about 35 yards from the corner of the building – six stories up in which the assassin had a window open – and keep in mind here that President Kennedy and Governor Connally are seated on, both on the same side of the car, on the side facing the building: Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally are on the side of the car away from the assassin. About 35 yards from the base of the building, President Kennedy, in the film, put his hand up to the right side of his face, the side facing the assassin. He seemingly wanted to brush back his hair, or perhaps rub his eyebrow. Mrs. Kennedy at this moment was looking away, or looking straight ahead. She was not looking at her husband. At that moment, when the President had his right hand up to this side of his face (gestures), he lurched just a bit forward. It was obvious that the shot had hit him. Mrs. Kennedy was not looking at him, nor did she appear to know at that instant that her husband had been hit. Governor Connally, in the seat immediately in front of the President, apparently either heard the shot or sensed that something was wrong because, Governor Connally, with his coat open, his button was undone, turned in this manner (turns back to his right with right arm extended), his hand outstretched, back toward the President; and the Governor had a look on his face that would indicate he perhaps was saying “What’s wrong?” or “What happened?” or “Can I help?” or something. But as Governor Connally was turned this way, his white shirt front exposed well to the view of the assassin, the Governor was obviously hit by a bullet, and he fell over to the side. Governor Connally’s wife, immediately, seemingly instantaneously, placed herself over her husband in a protective position, it appeared; and as Governor Connally fell back, President Kennedy was still leaned over. At that moment another bullet obviously hit the head of the President. The President’s head went forward, violently, in this manner (gestures). Mrs. Kennedy, at that instant, seemed to be looking right-square at her husband. She stood up. The President slumped over to the side and, I believe, brushed against Mrs. Kennedy’s dress. Mrs. Kennedy immediately turned and flung herself on the trunk of the automobile, face-down on the trunk, almost on all-fours. The First Lady appeared to be either frantically trying to get the secret service man who was riding on the bumper of the car - the single secret service man riding on that bumper - to come into the car or to tell him what had happened; or perhaps, from the picture, it appeared she might have been trying to get out of the car some way. The car never stopped. The secret service man in the front seat had a telephone in his hand. The car…its acceleration increased rapidly and it disappeared under an underpass. Three shots - the first one hitting President Kennedy, the second one hitting Governor Connally, the third one hitting the President – consume, possibly, five seconds. Not much more than that, if any. That is the scene shown in about twenty seconds of film that the FBI has in its possession. The film was taken by an amateur photographer who was in a very advantageous position, and who had his camera trained on the President’s car from the time it made the turn in front of the assassin until it disappeared on its way to the hospital. This is Dan Rather in Dallas."

A short time later, he once again described the film to Cronkite. (Transcript as posted by Paul Rigby on the Education Forum, 11-15-12).

Dan Rather (TV Take 2): "We have just returned from seeing a complete motion picture of the moments immediately preceding, and the moments of, President Kennedy’s assassination. The motion picture shows the limousine carrying: in the front seat, two secret service men; in the middle, or jump seat, Governor and Mrs. Connally; and, in the rear seat, President and Mrs. Kennedy; a single secret service man standing on the back bumper; the top of the black Lincoln convertible down. The car made a turn, a left turn, off of Houston Street, on to Elm Street, on the fringe of Dallas’ down-town area; that turn made directly below the sixth floor window from which the assassin’s bullets came. After the left turn was completed, the automobile, with only one car in front of it - a secret service car immediately in front – the President’s car proceeded about 35 yards from the base of the building in which the assassin was. President Kennedy and Governor Connally were seated on the same side of the open car, the side facing the building: Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally on the side of the car opposite the assassin. President Kennedy is clearly shown to put his right hand up to the side of his face as if to either brush back his hair, or perhaps rub his eyebrow. Mrs. Kennedy at that instant is looking away, and is not looking at the President. At almost that instant, when the President has his hand up to this side of his face (gestures), he lurches forward something in this manner (gestures): The first shot had hit him. Mrs. Kennedy appeared not to notice. Governor Connally, in the seat right in front of the President – by the way, the Governor had his suit coat open, his suit was not buttoned – perhaps either heard the shot or somehow he knew something was wrong because the picture shows just after that first shot hit the President, the Governor turned in something this manner, with his right arm stretched back toward the President, as if to say “What’s wrong?” or “What happened?” or say something. It exposed the entire white front shirt of the Governor to the full view of the assassin’s window; and as the Governor was in this position, and President Kennedy behind him was slumped slightly over, a shot clearly hit the front of Governor Connally; and the Governor fell back over towards his wife. Mrs. Connally immediately put herself over her husband in a protective position, and as she did so, in the back seat, this time with Mrs. Kennedy’s eyes apparently right on her husband, the second shot – the third shot in all – the second shot hit the President’s head. His head went forward, in a violent motion, pushing it down like this (leans forward, lowering his head as he does so). Mrs. Kennedy was on her feet immediately. The President fell over in this direction (leans to his left). It appeared his head probably brushed or hit against Mrs. Kennedy’s legs. The First Lady almost immediately tried to crawl on – did crawl on - to the trunk of the car, face-down, her whole body almost was on that trunk, in something of an all-fours position. She appeared to be either trying to desperately get the attention of the secret service man on the back bumper, or perhaps she was stretching out toward him to grab him to try get him in. Perhaps even trying to get herself out of the car. The car was moving all the time, the car never stopped. The secret service man on the back bumper leaned way over and put his hands on Mrs. Kennedy’s shoulders – she appeared to be in some danger of falling or rolling off that trunk lid. He pushed her back into the back seat of the car. In the front seat, a secret service man with a phone in his hand. The car speeded up and sped away. It never stopped, the car never paused. That’s what the film of the assassination showed. The film was taken by an amateur photographer who had placed himself in an advantageous position: eight millimeter color film. This is Dan Rather in Dallas."

And that wasn't the last of it. Several hours later (one source claims at 8:26 EST) Rather described the film to Cronkite for a third and final time, and compounded his mistakes. (Transcript as published by Richard Trask in Pictures of the Pain.)

Dan Rather (TV Take 3): "The films we saw were taken by an amateur photographer, who had a particularly good vantage point, just past the building from which the fatal shot was fired. The films show President Kennedy's open, black limousine, making a left turn, off Houston Street on to Elm Street on the fringe of downtown Dallas, a left turn made just below the window in which the assassin was waiting. About 35 yards past the very base of the building, just below the window, President Kennedy could be seen to, to put his right hand, up to the side of his head to, either brush back his hair or cover up his eyebrow. President Kennedy was sitting on the same side of the car, as the building from which the shot came. Mrs. Kennedy was by his side. In the jump seat in front of him, Mrs. Connally, and Governor Connally, Governor Connally on the same side of the car as the president. And in the front seat, two Secret Service men. Just as the president put that right hand up to the side of his head, he, you could see him, lurch forward. The first shot had hit him. Mrs. Kennedy was looking in another direction, apparently didn't see, or sense the first shot, or didn't hear it. But Governor Connally, in the seat in front, appeared to have heard it, or at least sensed that something was wrong. The Governor's coat was open. He, he reached back in this fashion, back as if to, to offer aid or ask the president something. At that moment, a shot clearly hit the governor, in the front, and he fell back in his seat. Mrs. Connally immediately threw herself over him in a protective position. In the next instant, with this time Mrs. Kennedy apparently looking on, a second shot, the third total shot, hit the president's head. He, his head can be seen to move violently forward. And, Mrs. Kennedy stood up immediately, the president leaned over her way. It appeared that he might have brushed her legs. Mrs. Kennedy then, literally went to the top of the trunk, of the Lincoln car, p-put practically her whole body on the trunk. It, it appeared she might have been on all fours, there, reaching out for the Secret Service man, the lone Secret Service man who was riding on the bumper of the car, the back bumper on Mrs. Kennedy's side. Uh, the Secret Service man leaned forward and put his hands on Mrs. Kennedy's shoulder to, push her back into the car. She was in some danger, it appeared, of rolling off or falling off. And when we described this before, there was some question about what we meant by Mrs. Kennedy being on the trunk of the car. Only she knows, but it appeared that she was trying desperately to, to get the Secret Service man's attention perhaps to help pull him into the car. The car never stopped, it never paused. In the front seat, a Secret Service man was, was on the telephone. The car picked up speed, and disappeared beneath an underpass. This is Dan Rather in Dallas."

(Note: in this, his fourth and final description of the Zapruder film, Rather repeated his inaccurate claim Kennedy's head went forward in response to the fatal head shot, but retreated from his speculation Mrs. Kennedy climbed onto the back of the limo while instinctively running from danger. In his 1977 book, The Camera Never Blinks, in which he acknowledged his mistake about the movement of Kennedy's head, but mistakenly claimed that he viewed the film on Saturday the 23rd, Rather did shed some light on something of interest: the reasons for his retreat. He admitted that "an editor" in New York told him to "leave out the part about her trying to flee." And that he did.)

But Rather was not the only one making false assumptions and compromises. An 11-25 AP Dispatch (found in the 11-26 Milwaukee Journal) proves that Rather was not even the only one claiming Kennedy's head jerked forward upon impact long before anyone could possibly have concluded it had indeed jerked slightly forward. It read:

"Dallas, Tex.-AP - A strip of movie film graphically depicting the assassination of President Kennedy was made by a Dallas clothing manufacturer with an 8 millimeter camera.

Several persons in Dallas who have seen the film which lasts about 15 seconds, say it clearly shows how the president was hit in the head with shattering force by the second of two bullets fired by the assassin.

Life magazine reportedly purchased still picture rights to the material for about $40,000.

This is what the film by Abe Zapruder is reported to show:

First the presidential limousine is coming toward the camera. As it comes abreast of the photographer, Mr. Kennedy is hit by the first bullet, apparently in the neck. He turns toward his wife Jacqueline, seated at his left, and she quickly begins to put her hands around his head.

At the same time, Texas Gov. John Connally, riding directly in front of the president, turns around to see what has happened.

Then Mr. Kennedy is hit on the upper right side of the back of his head with violent force. His head goes forward and then snaps back, and he slumps down on the seat.

At this time, Gov. Connolly is wounded and he drops forward on his seat.

Mrs. Kennedy then jumps up and crawls across the back deck of the limousine, apparently seeking the aid of a secret service man who has been trotting behind the slowly moving vehicle. He jumps onto the car and shoves Mrs. Kennedy back into the seat. Then he orders the driver to speed to the hospital where the president died.

The elapsed time from the moment when Mr. Kennedy is first struck until the car disappears in an underpass is about five seconds."

An 11-26 article by John Herbers, published in the 11-27 New York Times, moreover, repeats this same mistake. Herbers writes:

"The known facts about the bullets, and the position of the assassin, suggested that he started shooting as the President’s car was coming toward him, swung his rifle in an arc of almost 180 degrees and fired at least twice more.

A rifle like the one that killed President Kennedy might be able to fire three shots in two seconds, a gun expert indicated after tests. (Note: this line is found in online versions of this article, but is not in a clipping of the article found in the Weisberg Archives. Perhaps it was only added for evening editions of the paper.)

A strip of color movie film taken by a Dallas clothing manufacturer with an 8-mm camera tends to support this sequence of events.

The film covers about a 15-second period. As the President’s car come abreast of the photographer, the President was struck in the front of the neck. The President turned toward Mrs. Kennedy as she began to put her hands around his head.

Connally Turns Around

At the same time, Governor Connally, riding in front of the President, turned round to see what had happened. Then the President was struck on the head. His head went forward, then snapped back, as he slumped in his seat. At that time, Governor Connally was wounded.

The elapsed time from the moment Mr. Kennedy was first struck until the car disappeared in an underpass was five seconds.”

Now this is interesting. Note that the AP article and the New York Times article make the same mistakes and repeat the same non-fact facts (which I have highlighted). Note that they both claim Connally was wounded by the third shot, for example. This suggests that the AP writer and Herbers were either sharing information or being fed some of the same questionable facts from an outside source, most probably the FBI. Well, then, was their main mistake--that Kennedy's head went forward--something told them by the FBI, and, if so, should we then assume Dan Rather was also told to say this? I mean, really, is it just a coincidence that CBS News, the Associated Press, and The New York Times, in short order, all incorrectly reported that the Zapruder film showed Kennedy's head going forward? That's pretty hard to believe.

Which brings us to UPI's article on the film. Here it is, as found in the 11-26 Philadelphia Daily News (4 star edition).

The headline on the front page reads: “Man Who Came to See JFK Makes Tragic Movie”. Beneath this, there is the following explanation: “These dramatic pictures are from an 8mm ‘home movie’ reel, shot by Dallas dressmaker Abraham Zapruder who went to see President Kennedy ride through cheering throngs in Texas city. His camera recorded one of the most tragic moments in American history. Story page 3“. Beneath this, are four frames from a home movie of the assassination.

On page 3, the following story is presented:

Movie Film Shows Murder of President

Dallas (UPI)

An amateur photographer shot an 8-MM movie film that clearly shows, step-by-step, the assassination of President Kennedy.

The film was made by Abraham Zapruder, a Dallas dress manufacturer. He is selling rights to the film privately. It has been seen by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Secret Service and representatives of the news media.

It is seven feet long, 35 seconds in colour, a bit jumpy but clear.

It opens as the Kennedy motorcade rounds the corner from Houston Street and turns into Elm Street.

Then it picks up the President’s car and follows it down toward the underpass. Suddenly, in the film, Kennedy is seen to jerk. It is the first shot.

Mrs. Kennedy turns, puts her arms around him. A second later, the second shot. The President’s head becomes a blur on the film, lunged forward and up. The second bullet has torn into the back of his head.

He rolls towards Mrs. Kennedy and disappears from sight. Mrs. Kennedy lurches onto the flat trunk deck of the Presidential car as a Secret Service man races to their aid. She is on her hands and knees. She reaches for him. He leaps up on the bumper. She pulls him up on the bumper or he pushes her back as the film ends.

Other films show the car never stopped, but raced to the Parkland Memorial Hospital with Mrs. Kennedy cradling the President.

Well, hell. This article was clearly not written by someone using the information provided the other writers. The film here is reported to be 35 seconds long, not 15. There is no mention of Connally at all, let alone a claim he was hit by the third shot. And yet the ONE mistake the three articles have in common is the same mistake the AP and Times article had in common with Dan Rather's earlier description of the film--the strange claim Kennedy's head went forward in response to the head shot... Hmmm...

And there's something even stranger about this article. The next day's San Francisco Chronicle re-printed three of the frames found on the front page of the Philadelphia paper, and similarly specified, in a caption beneath the second frame, "In this photo from the 8mm movie strip taken by the amateur photographer, Abe Zapruder, motorcycle police are seen rushing to the car after the shots." Well, this was actually misleading on two counts. For one, neither of the two motorcycle police in the frame are rushing to the car; one of them, in fact, is slamming on his brakes. For two, all the frames presented in the article were taken from the south side of Elm Street, with the grassy knoll in the background. Zapruder's film, of course, was taken from the north side. Yes, incredibly, the film frames featured in both the 11-26 Philadelphia Daily News and 11-27 San Francisco Chronicle articles on the Zapruder film were not actually taken from Zapruder's film, but from the film of another eyewitness, Marie Muchmore. Her film had been purchased by UPI on the 25th, and shown on WNEW-TV on the 26th. The sale and broadcast of her film had even been the subject of a UPI article found in some papers, such as The Valley Independent, on the 26th, and others, such as The Eugene Register-Guardian, on the 27th.

And yet no one in the government seemed to notice. Incredibly, neither Mrs. Muchmore nor UPI thought it their duty to share her film with the Secret Service or FBI. This was especially ironic, or disturbing, take your pick, given that UPI's article specified that Zapruder had made his film available to the authorities. In any event, Mrs. Muchmore's and UPI's deceptiveness regarding her film enabled it to pass under the government's apparently defective radar for a lot longer than one might think possible. It would be, amazingly, nearly three months before those investigating the assassination of President Kennedy even learned of its existence.

[Craig Lamson]

I'm too tired to really think about it, but it seems pretty clear that Robert and Craig have crossed a line.

You can't seem to read either Pat. I never said Rather watched the film in ANY manner. I offered up POSSIBILITIES. I said more that once I did not KNOW how he watched the film, and quite frankly YOU don't either.

In fact I also said I don't care if he did not see the forward movement and he just made it up , because in the end he got it correct, that the violent forward movement was in fact in the film.

Now if YOU and Bob want to put words in my mouth, without merit, I'm gonna defend myself. And if someone CONTINUALLY does it time and time again after being shown my EXACT WORDS to the contrary, well, that is a fantasy.

And of course my ENTIRE point here with Rather's words, is the FALLIBILITY of witness statements, and Rather was a witness, of sorts.

Welcome to reality.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Craig Lamson

[Ray Mitcham]

Pat, Rather says this:

"Well, let me tell you then, give you a word picture of the motion picture we have just seen. The President's automobile which was preceded by only one other car containing Secret Service Agents...the President's open black Lincoln automobile made a turn, a left turn off of Houston Street in Dallas onto Elm Street, this was right on the fringe area of the downtown area. This left turn was made right below the window from which the shot was fired...as the car made the turn, completed the turn--went below the window from which this shot was fired...went on past the building--keep in mind the window was on the sixth floor...it got about 35 yards from the base of the building...that is if you had dropped a plumb line from the window to the sidewalk to...the President's car was around 35 yards from that spot...President Kennedy had just put his right hand up to the side of his right eye. It appeared that he was perhaps brushing back his hair or rubbing his eyebrow. Mrs. Kennedy was not looking in his direction. In front of them in the jump seat of the Lincoln...were Governor and Mrs. Connally. The Governor, as was the President, was on the side of the car of the building in which the assassin was located. Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally were on the opposite side. Two Secret Service men on the front seat...At almost the instant the President put his hand up to his eyebrow...on the right side of his face, with Mrs. Kennedy looking away, the President lurched forward just a bit. Uh, it was obvious he had been hit in the movie but you had to be looking very closely in order to see it. Mrs. Kennedy did not appear to be aware that he was hit but Governor Connally in the seat just in front of the President, seemingly heard the shot...or sensed that something was wrong...Governor Connally, whose coat button was open, turned in such a way to extend his right hand out towards the President and the Governor seemed to have a look on his face that might say "What is it? What happened?" And as he turned he exposed his entire shirt front and chest because his coat was unbuttoned...at that moment a shot very clearly hit that part of the Governor."

Why don't we see this in the film available to us?