CE 567 to CE 569....Where is the rest of the bullet?

[Robert Prudhomme]

At 12:30 P.M., Nov. 22, 1963, JFK was supposedly struck in the back of the head with a bullet fired from six stories up in the Texas School Book Depository, at a range of approximately 88 yards. The bullet was fired from a 6.5x52 mm Carcano M91/38 short rifle and was a full metal jacket bullet with an extraordinarily thick jacket about 1 mm thick, typical of 6.5 mm Carcano bullets.

What happened to that 6.5 mm Carcano bullet is so unusual, experts to this day can neither recreate it or explain it. As I pointed out in a previous thread, the walls of the 6.5 mm Carcano and the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer FMJ bullets are so thick, they were used for head shots to elephants as the strong bullets resisted deformation and breakup while travelling through the thick elephant skull bones.

So, what happened? Why didn't the 6.5 mm Carcano FMJ bullet stay together, travel through JFK's head and exit his face, as one would expect this bullet to do?

Mr. Craig Lamson has tried to suggest that, out of four 6.5 mm Carcano cartridges (made by the Western Cartridge Co., USA) in Oswald's possession that day, one bullet had its nose drilled or scored deeply enough, prior to being fired, to make it into a fragmenting hollow point bullet. As luck would have it, according to Mr. Lamson, this just happened to be the bullet that made contact with JFK's head with such explosive results.

While it is highly unlikely that Oswald would only doctor the nose of one out of four bullets in this fashion, there is something else drastically wrong with this theory. It is something that has bothered me for years and it is now time to share with you what I believe actually occurred.

Below are links to two Warren Commission evidence photos, that of CE 567 and CE 569. According to investigators, these were the only two bullet fragments of any size or note found in the limousine.

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee363/Traveller111/Photo_naraevid_CE567-1_zps089fc93d.jpg

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee363/Traveller111/Photo_naraevid_CE569-2_zps7a247a7c.jpg

CE 567 is presumably the nose sction of the 6.5 mm Carcano FMJ bullet that struck the rear of JFK's head, while CE 569 is the jacket base of the same bullet. Both were supposedly found in the front of the limousine, following the assassination. Noticeably absent are the lead and bullet jacket from that section of the bullet between CE 567 and CE 569.

Though badly deformed and split, the nose of the bullet (CE 567) was still in one piece. This fact alone tells me that the bullet that struck JFK in the head was not modified into being a fragmenting bullet in the normal fashion by drilling or slicing into the copper jacket of the nose until the lead core is exposed. If it had been altered in such a fashion, it would never have been found in one piece, as portrayed by CE 567, but would have been in many pieces; all quite small.

So, if the bullet that struck JFK's head was a fragmenting bullet (and I see no other possibility) and CE 567 precludes the alteration of its nose to make it a fragmenting bullet, how did it fragment? I'm delighted that you asked.

Pictured below is a rare 6.5 mm Carcano cartridge manufactured for the Italian military called a "multi-shot" cartridge. While I do not believe this type of round, which actually contained lead shot within a hollow jacket, was the type that struck JFK, I believe the method used to cause the jacket of this bullet to come apart was also used to facilitate the breaking up of the round that struck JFK's head. Little seems to be known about the multi-shot cartridge, and one can only assume it to be a response to complaints from Italian soldiers about the 6.5 mm Carcano FMJ bullet's inability to seriously wound the people shot by it. Instead of making the "through and through" wound typical of 6.5 mm Carcano FMJ bullets, this thing would have made a horrendous wound typical of a shotgun wound, only worse. Not only would there be a spreading pattern of lead shot travelling through the victim, there would also be irregularly shaped bits of bullet jacket tearing things up, as well. It could only be worse if the nose of this "bullet" was capable of penetrating skull bone prior to the separation of the jacket. Note that records do not show that the Western Cartridge Company ever manufactured a 6.5 mm Carcano cartridge with a bullet resembling the multi-shot round.

Figure 5: Bottom is the “multi shot” round showing the cuts made on the projectile to facilitate it coming apart

The one funny looking projectile (with cuts on the side of the projectile) turned out to be a “multi shot” round. According to the Carcano website, the projectile actually is hollow and contains lead shot and it is not uncommon to run across these in surplus ammo.

Looking at the above photo, we can see that the "cuts" or scoring in the jacket wall do not begin until a point that is roughly 25% of the distance from the nose, leaving the nose intact. Although not visible, we can assume the scoring ends at about the point where the bullet enters the neck of the cartridge. I make this assumption for two reasons. 1) Scoring anything beyond what we see scored would be pointless, as the bullet jacket has been weakened more than enough (about 50% of the length of the jacket) to facilitate breaking up of the bullet 2) Scoring the bullet right to the base may weaken the jacket severely and deform it to the point it will not fly true to the target.

Looking again at CE 567 and CE 569, we have to ask the question; would a 6.5 mm Carcano FMJ bullet, deeply scored on four sides in the fashion of the "multi-shot" round, be capable of penetrating JFK's skull and coming apart inside the skull? With the location of the scores, would it leave the nose of such a bullet in one piece, as seen in CE 567, and the jacket base in another piece, as seen in CE 569, yet cause the total disintegration of everything between the nose and the base?

[David Von Pein]

There was nothing unusual or impossible about the way the head-shot bullet behaved after crashing through President Kennedy's skull. Tests were done by Drs. Olivier and Lattimer that show very similar damage done to a 6.5mm MC/WCC bullet (just like Oswald's).

Shouldn't corroboration like what is seen in the photos below (from John Lattimer's 1980 book) make people LESS suspicious about CE567/569, rather than MORE suspicious? Or are we supposed to believe that BOTH Olivier's Edgewood Arsenal tests in 1964 AND Dr. Lattimer's independent bullet tests many years later are fake and phony too?

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/09/ce567-and-ce569.html

Edited June 13, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

There was nothing unusual or impossible about the way the head-shot bullet behaved after crashing through President Kennedy's skull. Tests were done by Drs. Olivier and Lattimer that show very similar damage done to a 6.5mm MC/WCC bullet (just like Oswald's).

Shouldn't corroboration like what is seen in the photos below (from John Lattimer's 1980 book) make people LESS suspicious about CE567/569, rather than MORE suspicious? Or are we supposed to believe that BOTH Olivier's Edgewood Arsenal tests in 1964 AND Dr. Lattimer's independent bullet tests many years later are fake and phony too?

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/09/ce567-and-ce569.html

Just ignore the man behind the curtain and try to concentrate on the evidence we are provided, good folks.

[David Von Pein]

Why should I ignore the tests that were done with the exact same ammunition as CE567/569?

Corroboration usually indicates verification. But for some reason in this case, corroboration means "something's fishy".

A weird set of rules you conspiracy theorists have.

Edited June 13, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

Why should I ignore the tests that were done with the exact same ammunition as CE567/569?

Corroboration usually indicates verification. But for some reason in this case, corroboration means "something's fishy".

A weird set of rules you conspiracy theorists have.

Mr. Von Pein

Here is a good question for you, and the answer you give will tell us if Drs. Lattimer and Olivier were charlatans employed by the government or not.

The human skulls that Drs. Lattimer and Olivier fired 6.5 mm WCC Carcano bullets into, were they cadaver skulls with brain and fluid still in the skull cavity? Or were they empty human skulls?

[David Von Pein]

Oh, for Pete sake.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Mr. Von Pein

Just as I thought, you are afraid to answer that question, and for very good reasons. The answer to that question would be devastating to the case you are trying to make for Drs. Lattimer and Olivier.

When you wish to have a serious discussion, let me know.

[David Von Pein]

Do you think CE567/569 were planted, Robert?

From Lattimer's book:

"Combinations of human skull tops and melons were tested, and, again, all fell backward off the stand toward the shooter. No melon or skull combination ever fell AWAY from the shooter. Human skulls were then packed with solid melon contents and taped and sewed tightly together with strong tape and thread to simulate the scalp. We fired into these at the same point and at the same angle as the President was struck. The skull wounds produced were strikingly similar to Kennedy's. Again, the skulls fell or jumped off the stand toward the shooter, and large fragments of the top of the skulls flew upward and forward for distances of forty feet or more, just as fragments of Kennedy's skull can be seen to have done in frames 313 through 318 of the Zapruder movie." -- John K. Lattimer; Page 251; "Kennedy And Lincoln"

"This bullet [a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano missile like CE399] can penetrate four feet of solid wood or three pine telephone poles side by side and come out looking completely undeformed. On the other hand, if it is fired into the thick bone of the back of a human skull, the jacket and core of the bullet will separate, releasing a myriad of additional fragments of many different sizes." -- J. Lattimer; Page 277

"All of the metal fragments [visible in JFK's head via X-rays] were confined to the right side of the brain area and all the fragments were above an imaginary line drawn from the wound of entry through the top of the frontal sinus. Their configuration was in keeping with the track of a bullet entering at the rear of the right side of the skull, near the midline, disrupting and exiting from the front of the head on the right. It was compatible with no other direction. There were no bullet fragments in the left side of the skull to indicate a transverse bullet wound, as from the front right." -- J. Lattimer; Page 214

Edited June 13, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Ian Kingsbury]

Skull tops and melons ! Is'nt this what they teach at Hogwarts Dave?.

I realise there were not many in the volunteer queue for this assignment

But it was for enquiry into the death of a president no less.

Could they not procure the right "equipment" to carry out the correct experiment

Or were they looking for a pre-conceived easy answer i.e.

Muddle the test ,send in the report cos nobody will question it anyway.

Ian

[Robert Prudhomme]

Do you think CE567/569 were planted, Robert?

From Lattimer's book:

"Combinations of human skull tops and melons were tested, and, again, all fell backward off the stand toward the shooter. No melon or skull combination ever fell AWAY from the shooter. Human skulls were then packed with solid melon contents and taped and sewed tightly together with strong tape and thread to simulate the scalp. We fired into these at the same point and at the same angle as the President was struck. The skull wounds produced were strikingly similar to Kennedy's. Again, the skulls fell or jumped off the stand toward the shooter, and large fragments of the top of the skulls flew upward and forward for distances of forty feet or more, just as fragments of Kennedy's skull can be seen to have done in frames 313 through 318 of the Zapruder movie." -- John K. Lattimer; Page 251; "Kennedy And Lincoln"

"This bullet [a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano missile like CE399] can penetrate four feet of solid wood or three pine telephone poles side by side and come out looking completely undeformed. On the other hand, if it is fired into the thick bone of the back of a human skull, the jacket and core of the bullet will separate, releasing a myriad of additional fragments of many different sizes." -- J. Lattimer; Page 277

"All of the metal fragments [visible in JFK's head via X-rays] were confined to the right side of the brain area and all the fragments were above an imaginary line drawn from the wound of entry through the top of the frontal sinus. Their configuration was in keeping with the track of a bullet entering at the rear of the right side of the skull, near the midline, disrupting and exiting from the front of the head on the right. It was compatible with no other direction. There were no bullet fragments in the left side of the skull to indicate a transverse bullet wound, as from the front right." -- J. Lattimer; Page 214

Mr. Von Pein

How thick is the human skull at the back of it where JFK was struck by what Gerald Posner's expert referred to as a "flying drill" (6.5 mm bullet) ?

"The 6.5 mm bullet, when fired, is like a flying drill," says Art Pence, a competitions firearms expert. Some game hunters use the 6.5 mm shell to bring down animals as large as elephants." ~~Gerald Posner~~ "Case Closed"

Edited June 13, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

Mr. Von Pein??

[Daniel Gallup]

Mr. Von Pein??

Robert, according to the autopsy doctors, the entrance wound was low in the back of the head slightly above and to the right of the external occipital protuberance. If this shot came from the sixth floor, it would seemingly have exited his face, as you noted earlier. That might explain why fragments were found in the front of the limo, but the last time I checked, Kennedy had no hole in his face. if the kill shot hit the right temple and left the avulsive wound described by Perry, McClelland et al, in the rear of the head, the fragments 55 7 and 569 would not likely be found in the front of the limo, would they? I mean, what in the world blasted the orange-size hole in the back of Kennedy's head? A shot from the front would have meant the true bullet exited the rear with a third of his brain etc. My point: isn't the location of the fragments noted herein evidence that they really are just plants?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Mr. Von Pein??

Robert, according to the autopsy doctors, the entrance wound was low in the back of the head slightly above and to the right of the external occipital protuberance. If this shot came from the sixth floor, it would seemingly have exited his face, as you noted earlier. That might explain why fragments were found in the front of the limo, but the last time I checked, Kennedy had no hole in his face. if the kill shot hit the right temple and left the avulsive wound described by Perry, McClelland et al, in the rear of the head, the fragments 55 7 and 569 would not likely be found in the front of the limo, would they? I mean, what in the world blasted the orange-size hole in the back of Kennedy's head? A shot from the front would have meant the true bullet exited the rear with a third of his brain etc. My point: isn't the location of the fragments noted herein evidence that they really are just plants?

Mr. Gallup

Excellent points. It really matters which theory we happen to be describing at the moment. For the sake of argument, and to humour Mr. Von Pein, I was going along with the fantasy of the bullet entering the cowlick. This does not say that is the particular theory I believe.

Myself, I am divided between a single bullet entering the right (or left) temple and exiting in the right occipito-parietal (right rear) portion of JFK's head and two bullets, one entering the right or left temple and one entering, as you said, slightly above and to the right of the EOP.

Outside of Drs. Humes and Boswell at the autopsy, there is little to no early evidence, from either Parkland or Bethesda, of a massive avulsive wound in the right forward part of JFK's head, as seen in the Zapruder film. Where the bullet entering the EOP actually exited, if it did at all, is a mystery but, considering how low it entered and the downward angle it was travelling, we are correct in assuming a likely exit point for it would have been mid to lower face.

[David Von Pein]

There is no doubt about where the one and only entry hole was located in John Kennedy's head -- it was high on the head, near the cowlick, 100 millimeters above the EOP -- verified by both the Clark Panel in 1968 and the HSCA ten years later.

Conspiracy buffs, of course, don't like these words (below) written by the four-member Clark Panel. The CTers prefer to totally ignore this determination (just as the CTers ignore all of the other hard physical evidence that all points towards the guilt of Mr. Oswald):

"On one of the lateral films [X-rays] of the skull (#2), a hole measuring approximately 8 mm. in diameter on the outer surface of the skull and as much as 20 mm. on the internal surface can be seen in profile approximately 100 mm. above the external occipital protuberance."

-- The Clark Panel Report

Edited June 15, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

There is no doubt about where the one and only entry hole was located in John Kennedy's head -- it was high on the head, near the cowlick, 100 millimeters above the EOP -- verified by both the Clark Panel in 1968 and the HSCA ten years later.

Conspiracy buffs, of course, don't like these words (below) written by the four-member Clark Panel. The CTers prefer to totally ignore this determination (just as the CTers ignore all of the other hard physical evidence that all points towards the guilt of Mr. Oswald):

"On one of the lateral films [X-rays] of the skull (#2), a hole measuring approximately 8 mm. in diameter on the outer surface of the skull and as much as 20 mm. on the internal surface can be seen in profile approximately 100 mm. above the external occipital protuberance."

-- The Clark Panel Report

Mr. Von Pein

Would 100 millimetres be the same thing as four inches?

Oh, and while you're here, there are a couple of questions you never answered, if you please.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme